Car Forum / Toyota / Camry / October 2007
Mythbuster: dirty AT fluid helps old tranny work smoothly
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Pszemol - 09 Oct 2007 05:38 GMT About a year ago I got a recomendation at the toyota dealer that my car is so old and AT fluid with gray discoloration that I would better not to change it because I make things worse... They said it has some clutch particles floating there now (?) and if I replace the fluid with a new, clean one my transmission will start to slip between gears... horrible news.
My 1995 camry has 240k miles on the odometer now and the last transmission service (machine flush) was done at 148k miles in 2003 at the same dealership :-)
Recently I got an oil change, different mechanic at the same place did recomend transmission service because my fluid is dirty. I am little confused with such difference of opinions.
So my question would be - is there any truth in the argument behind not changing transmission fluid in old cars or is not? If so, how to tell your transmission is in such "deadly" situation and how to tell if your fluid just needs changing?
ransley - 09 Oct 2007 10:52 GMT > About a year ago I got a recomendation at the toyota dealer > that my car is so old and AT fluid with gray discoloration that [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > If so, how to tell your transmission is in such "deadly" > situation and how to tell if your fluid just needs changing? Its old, change it and the filter. At 240 it could break tomorrow no matter what you do or dont do
Pszemol - 09 Oct 2007 13:43 GMT >> About a year ago I got a recomendation at the toyota dealer >> that my car is so old and AT fluid with gray discoloration that [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Its old, change it and the filter. At 240 it could break tomorrow no > matter what you do or dont do I understand it is old and it could break... I just do not want to HELP in breaking :-) So is it true or is not that the "gray particles" in the fluid help working it smoothly and replacing fluid will make things worse?
clomicky@gmail.com - 09 Oct 2007 20:25 GMT > >> About a year ago I got a recomendation at the toyota dealer > >> that my car is so old and AT fluid with gray discoloration that [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It's probably an old wives tale...that you shouldn't change really old ATF.
I would definitely change the fluid if you want to keep the car as long as possible. It is SO easy to change the fluid in a '95 Camry...all you have to do is remove the drain bolt, let old atf drain, replace the bolt and then add three quarts Dexron III ATF through the dipstick. I wouldn't bother with dropping the pan to replace the strainer (filter).
Also, you may want to change the fluid several times using the drain and fill method that I described above since you only drain about 40% of the fluid (the 3 quarts) each time you drain.
ransley - 09 Oct 2007 20:50 GMT On Oct 9, 2:25 pm, clomi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> About a year ago I got a recomendation at the toyota dealer > > >> that my car is so old and AT fluid with gray discoloration that [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Change the fluid, change the filter...
Pszemol - 09 Oct 2007 21:13 GMT > It's probably an old wives tale...that you shouldn't change really old > ATF. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and fill method that I described above since you only drain about 40% > of the fluid (the 3 quarts) each time you drain. How about the differential? Is it important at this point?
And what is the difference between Dexron II and III? I have a vague recollection the manual calls for Dexron II not III.
mrdarrett@gmail.com - 10 Oct 2007 16:24 GMT > <clomi...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1191957928.768736.145310@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... > > It's probably an old wives tale...that you shouldn't change really old [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > And what is the difference between Dexron II and III? > I have a vague recollection the manual calls for Dexron II not III. Dexron II is obsolete - I don't think they make it anymore.
Go with Dexron III.
Michael
mrdarrett@gmail.com - 10 Oct 2007 16:28 GMT > <clomi...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1191957928.768736.145310@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... > > It's probably an old wives tale...that you shouldn't change really old [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > And what is the difference between Dexron II and III? > I have a vague recollection the manual calls for Dexron II not III. Yeah, if the differential oil's never been done, do it.
I had trouble getting that huge fill nut off, so I took mine to Pep Boys for diff service. It was cheap - somewhere between $16 and $30. Brought my own oil (Mobile synthetic ATF). Watch them while they do it though - the tech almost did my tranny fluid instead of the diff. (!!!)
Hold on wait a minute - what kind of car do you have? The 4-cylinder auto has the tranny and diff in separate reservoirs (I know mine does - I've got a '96 automatic 4-banger). I think the V6 has them combined... or has my morning coffee not kicked in yet...???
Michael
ransley - 10 Oct 2007 18:46 GMT On Oct 10, 10:28 am, mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > <clomi...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1191957928.768736.145310@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... > > > It's probably an old wives tale...that you shouldn't change really old [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Use mobil1 trans fluid in trans and differential
Pszemol - 10 Oct 2007 21:25 GMT > Use mobil1 trans fluid in trans and differential Is it better than the ATF stuff I can get at the toyota dealership?
Pszemol - 10 Oct 2007 21:25 GMT >> How about the differential? Is it important at this point? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > - I've got a '96 automatic 4-banger). I think the V6 has them > combined... or has my morning coffee not kicked in yet...??? We are talking about 1995 camry, 4 cyl, auto.
mjc13<REMOVETHIS> - 10 Oct 2007 05:21 GMT > About a year ago I got a recomendation at the toyota dealer > that my car is so old and AT fluid with gray discoloration that [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > If so, how to tell your transmission is in such "deadly" situation and > how to tell if your fluid just needs changing? My take on this issue is that flushes increase the risk of failure (but hardly guarantee it) under these circumstances, but dropping the pan going a fluid and filter change or two is a very good idea.
Pszemol - 10 Oct 2007 21:23 GMT > My take on this issue is that flushes increase the risk of failure > (but hardly guarantee it) under these circumstances, but dropping the > pan going a fluid and filter change or two is a very good idea. So you do not agree with the statement that clutch plates circulating in my fluid in a form of gray dust :-) and replaced with new fluid will cause my transmission to slip prematurely compared to a situation when I continue driving with dirty fluid?
ransley - 11 Oct 2007 14:14 GMT > > My take on this issue is that flushes increase the risk of failure > > (but hardly guarantee it) under these circumstances, but dropping the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with new fluid will cause my transmission to slip prematurely > compared to a situation when I continue driving with dirty fluid? I drain out my trans at the plug every maybe 20000m and have dropped the pan twice for a full fill. Once at 10f it did not shift, I had the pan dropped and that fixed the issue. I use Mobil synthetic trans fluid. Everytime I drain and fill with mobil synthetic it shifts much much better, it actualy then down shifts, I notice mpg and power increase which seems to last for 10000m. I noticed a small difference using Mobil synthetic in the differential. The synthetics dont get as thick in cold weather which helps. The motor I change at 5000m with 5-30 mobil 1 and notice a big difference on new 5-30 oil. One thing you should do and its only maybe 15$ is have the timing checked, a stretched belt on my car made the car loose power and mpg, apx 4mpg. It was about 4 degress retarded. Change everything and check timing you could easily notice 3-7 mpg more. Synthetic doesnt get as thick when cold , Mobil has friction reducers that work but wear out after 3- 6000m. I noticed a big difference in power every time I change fluids. Change the trans and filter it will help.
Pszemol - 11 Oct 2007 15:40 GMT >> > My take on this issue is that flushes increase the risk of failure >> > (but hardly guarantee it) under these circumstances, but dropping the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > 3- 6000m. I noticed a big difference in power every time I change > fluids. Change the trans and filter it will help. Well, how about the answer to my question?
ransley - 11 Oct 2007 16:44 GMT > >> > My take on this issue is that flushes increase the risk of failure > >> > (but hardly guarantee it) under these circumstances, but dropping the [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > - Show quoted text - If you cant figure it out by now you are hopeless.
Pszemol - 11 Oct 2007 17:12 GMT > If you cant figure it out by now you are hopeless. You can blame the student or you can blame the teacher...
You were writing a story about a regular fluid changes. This does not apply to my car, since I wrote I have not changed the fluid for the last 100 thousand miles...
The question is now, which is left without the answer, in my current state - is it beneficial to replace the fluid and get rid of all the friction particles floating in the old fluid. Somebody told me that these particles HELP transmission work and if I replace the fluid I will make things worse.
So, Teacher, please explain this to your dumb student again!
ransley - 11 Oct 2007 18:12 GMT > > If you cant figure it out by now you are hopeless. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > So, Teacher, please explain this to your dumb student again! replace it, its old and worn, so its a little overdue. I would not power flush it but drop the pan and change the filter. I have never heard of leaving in old fluid, this issue of causing more problems by changing it is not something I have heard about, I have heard that power flushes can cause problems. I think changing it is the logical option. Its just my dumb opinion, take it for what its worth. You manual says change it
johngdole@hotmail.com - 13 Oct 2007 20:21 GMT I don't think you'll find any scientific study on the effects of replacing old ATF and its correlation to tranny failures. But I know the first thing suggested in many diagnostics procedures on tranny trouble tends to be replace the ATF.
Power flushing a dirty tranny is asking for trouble. The loose clutch material can get lodged in valve bodies. However, one thing is certain: the clutch material in the fluid acts as an abrasive and it will cause accelerated wear in a vicious cycle : the more particles in there the quicker it wears.
I'd drop the pan, change out the strainer and drain-refill. If you must, drain and refill three times in short intervals (drive a short distance in between) after the strainer change.
GM-Dexron III replaced Dexron II. Just don't use the new Dexron IV or VI (can't remember which), it's for the new GM transmissions.
> So you do not agree with the statement that clutch plates > circulating in my fluid in a form of gray dust :-) and replaced > with new fluid will cause my transmission to slip prematurely > compared to a situation when I continue driving with dirty fluid? Pszemol - 14 Oct 2007 01:16 GMT > I don't think you'll find any scientific study on the effects of > replacing old ATF and its correlation to tranny failures. But I know > the first thing suggested in many diagnostics procedures on tranny > trouble tends to be replace the ATF. I see...
> Power flushing a dirty tranny is asking for trouble. The loose clutch > material can get lodged in valve bodies. However, one thing is > certain: the clutch material in the fluid acts as an abrasive and it > will cause accelerated wear in a vicious cycle : the more particles in > there the quicker it wears. Sounds reasonable.
> I'd drop the pan, change out the strainer and drain-refill. If you > must, drain and refill three times in short intervals (drive a short > distance in between) after the strainer change. Is the pan gasket reusable or do I replace it?
Would it be good enough (for now) just to drain&refil couple of times without droping the pan? It sounds like much less things I could potentialy do wrong, and I am still unexperienced :-)
This way I could see what happens after replacing the fluid and hold with major mess with droping the pan and strainer replacement to the spring.
> GM-Dexron III replaced Dexron II. Just don't use the new Dexron IV > or VI (can't remember which), it's for the new GM transmissions. I was checking out the shelves in store today and saw fluid for GM transmissions - I have not realized *this* is what I need for my TOYOTA :-)) Since when I have a General Motors tranny? I am surprised :-)
Hachiroku ハチロク - 21 Oct 2007 16:43 GMT >> About a year ago I got a recomendation at the toyota dealer that my car >> is so old and AT fluid with gray discoloration that I would better not [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > (but hardly guarantee it) under these circumstances, but dropping the pan > going a fluid and filter change or two is a very good idea. Yeah, what he said. I would certainly be wary of someone that wants to do a 'flush', since there probably is a lot of friction material floating around in the fluid.
However, I took a chance with my Supra (188,000 miles and *BLACK* tranny fluid). I dropped the pan and replaced the filter, put it back together and refilled it...and crossed my fingers...
That night, driving home, in the street lights I could see a CLOUD trailing behind the car. When I got home I could see tranny fluid pissing out from the pan mating surfaces.
The next day I dropped the pan again, put in some FIPG from Toyota (Form In Place Gasket) and put the pan back on. Two fluid changes in two days, no problem, but the tranny did start working smoother...
NickySantoro - 13 Oct 2007 19:57 GMT >About a year ago I got a recomendation at the toyota dealer >that my car is so old and AT fluid with gray discoloration that >I would better not to change it because I make things worse... >They said it has some clutch particles floating there now >(?) and if I replace the fluid with a new, clean one my >transmission will start to slip between gears... Let's keep this simple. What you were told is crock of crap. New fluid is the best fluid.
Pszemol - 14 Oct 2007 01:22 GMT >>About a year ago I got a recomendation at the toyota dealer >>that my car is so old and AT fluid with gray discoloration that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Let's keep this simple. What you were told is crock of crap. > New fluid is the best fluid. OK, I will change it, but if it fails during next week I will invite you to my house to help me replace the whole transmission ;-) Deal?
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