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Car Forum / Toyota / Prius / May 2005Just The Facts
More and more people are now on the Hybrid band wagon especially now when gas is high. The tree huggers like them and say they are good for the environment. The commuters like them for a tax break and some states allow them in the HOV lane with a single passenger. People are really saving the environment and spending way less on gas. Well there is a flipside, you may get 45 mpg and produce less ozone pollution, but now the rest of the story. My brother-in-law is a GM mechanic and a damn good one too. He just shakes his head at the hybrids and says junk. What no one is telling the consumer the average battery life for the hybrids is about 5 years give or take a year. He has already replaced the battery units on several that were just 4 years old and out of warranty. When the owner got the bill they were amazed at the costs of around $2000.00 all that money they saved in gas was lost and if you figure it up they were in the hole. Then the batteries are hazardous waste so you are not polluting the air, but there is a potential of polluting the soil if not handled correctly. At about the same time the voltage regulator to the drive train needs some maintenance and there is another $800.00. Needless to say anything about the drive train for another $500.00. Then there are the breaks, rotors for another $700.00 for grand total of $4000. I keep every piece of equipment's maintenance costs on a spread sheet and my wife's 94 shadow $2390.00 to date. My old CJ which I had for almost 20 years $6324.00 to maintain, my 98 RAM is at $4548.00 new tyranny at 120,000, well you get the picture. At 4 to 5 years on a hybrid you are looking at dishing out $4000.00 not including all the money already spent on general maintenance. If you compare the hybrids to any other non-hybrid of about the same size and half the MPG the non-hybrid is cheaper to run and maintain.  SignatureHarryS My 2? The Toyota Hybrid System (including batteries) is warrantied for 8 years / 100,000 miles. Obviously Toyota trusts the batteries to last at least that long. If they fail sooner, Toyota foots the bill. . . I honestly don't expect to own the car much longer than that - a large chunk of the Prius demographic is probably "early adopters" that will be shopping long before the 8-year mark. As for routine maintenance - I'm hitting 17,000 miles, which is about time for my third oil change. Paid for by the dealership (this is the last free one). So, in my first year of ownership, maintenance costs have amounted to a few wiper blades. I see nothing in this vehicle that will require regular maintenance expense beyond any other car - and it should come out less since oil changes are recommended at 5,000 miles instead of 3,000. > More and more people are now on the Hybrid band wagon especially now when > gas is high. The tree huggers like them and say they are good for the [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > half > the MPG the non-hybrid is cheaper to run and maintain. > Well there is a flipside, you may get 45 mpg and produce less ozone > pollution, but now the rest of the story. My brother-in-law is a GM [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > replaced the battery units on several that were just 4 years old and out of > warranty. Remarkable that "several" Toyota owners would have taken their four year old Priuses to the same GM mechanic. If that is true then those owners were very confused: the warranty period on the traction battery in most of the US is 8 years/100,000 miles, and 10 years/150,000 miles in California, and they would have got them replaced for free at any Toyota dealer. >> Well there is a flipside, you may get 45 mpg and produce less ozone >> pollution, but now the rest of the story. My brother-in-law is a GM [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > California, and they would have got them replaced for free at any Toyota > dealer. I've got $3400.00 on my GM card and bought a Prius because GM was too stupid to produce a clean car with good mileage and reliability. The only fact here is that Harry's story isn't true. > More and more people are now on the Hybrid band wagon especially now when > gas is high. The tree huggers like them and say they are good for the > environment. The commuters like them for a tax break and some states allow > them in the HOV lane with a single passenger. People are really saving the > environment and spending way less on gas. So far, 100% on target! Congrats! > Well there is a flipside, you may get 45 mpg and produce less ozone > pollution, but now the rest of the story. My brother-in-law is a GM [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > replaced the battery units on several that were just 4 years old and out of > warranty. Does anyone think harry01@comcast.net expects us to belive this? It's so full of outright lies that it boggles the mind. GM does not have Toyota parts. The battery warranty is MUCH longer than 4 years. Battery failures are rare in Toyota hybrids. Now Harry's brother may be talking about a secret GM hybrid that's a piece of junk, but you'd think he would have said so. SignatureHarryS My 2? | > More and more people are now on the Hybrid band wagon especially now when | > gas is high. The tree huggers like them and say they are good for the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] | have Toyota parts. The battery warranty is MUCH longer than 4 years. | Battery failures are rare in Toyota hybrids. Well you are wrong I live 6 miles from a GM/Toyota dealer they have both makes on the lot open mouth insert foot. | Now Harry's brother may be talking about a secret GM hybrid that's a | piece of junk, but you'd think he would have said so. He wirks at the dealer ship and was sent to Toyota factory training so bite me. > | > More and more people are now on the Hybrid band wagon especially now > when [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > He wirks at the dealer ship and was sent to Toyota factory training so bite > me. * Are you telling us that GM is sending its technicians to Toyota for training? I could certainly believe that. As you probably don't know, Ford licenses its hybrid drive for the Escape from Toyota. Arrangements like that usually include some tech training. earle * In article <earle.jones-D3413E.16541302042005@comcast.dca.giganews.com>, > As you probably don't know, Ford licenses its hybrid drive for the > Escape from Toyota. Well, actually, Ford developed its technology independently from Toyota, but some of that stuff it developed infringes on Toyota's patents, so to protect itself from legal problems, it licensed the patent. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. > In article > <earle.jones-D3413E.16541302042005@comcast.dca.giganews.com>, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > but some of that stuff it developed infringes on Toyota's patents, so to > protect itself from legal problems, it licensed the patent. That is pretty common. Legend has it that Edison's light bulb patent beat out a nearly identical rival application by mere hours. If Ford was working along the same lines as Toyota and lost the race to the patent office, the situation you describe would be the outcome. Ford could still use their own parts but would have to buy the license from Toyota. It sure beats not being in the market at all! (Are you listening, GM?) Mike >> As you probably don't know, Ford licenses its hybrid drive for the >> Escape from Toyota. > > Well, actually, Ford developed its technology independently from Toyota, > but some of that stuff it developed infringes on Toyota's patents, so to > protect itself from legal problems, it licensed the patent. I've looked at the Ford hybrid literature. It shares the Toyota integrated CVT/generators, and basic design of a akinson cycle engine + small NiMH batt pack + integrated CVT/motor/generator. They've run the same things electrically as the Prius, and used the same techniques. There's no evidence that I've seen that Ford was working on a hybrid using this technology prior to the Prius introduction in 1999. It might have been in some secret lab. I don't see any major differences, and I don't think the Escape is any better than the Toyota effort (the Lexus mini-SUV). I don't doubt the clam that they (Ford) filed thousands of patents on their new model, but filing for and granting patents are two different things. My opinion (read Guess) is that Ford bought the rights to the technology after Toyota proved it viable and "reinvented" a large portion of it so they would not be accused of just reselling Japaneses technology. I am quite likely wrong. Daniel > >> As you probably don't know, Ford licenses its hybrid drive for the > >> Escape from Toyota. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Daniel * Daniel, I think you're right. See: http://www.ensight.org/archives/2004/03/09/ford-to-license-toyota-hyb rid-technology/ Ford to License Toyota Hybrid Technology In a smart move, Ford recently decided to license Toyota¹s hybrid technology. Ford Motor will license key hybrid technology from Toyota Motor in a deal that could help establish Toyota¹s system as a standard for the industry, the two companies said in a joint statement on Tuesday. The agreement is a coup for Toyota, which has been trying to sell its hybrid system to a variety of automakers to help offset its high development cost. The move sets the stage for Toyota¹s hybrid technology to become one of the key standards in the automobile industry. In an age where car companies income is unsteady at the best of times, the high cost of developing hybrid vehicles to come into line with harsh government-regulated environmental policy is beginning to pinch. And hard. The move by Toyota to become one of the few specialists is good for everyone. For other car makers, they can minimalize their internal R&D on hybrids to customizations and improvements (which, under the deal, Toyota will buy back). More free cash for automakers, and a chance for Toyota to finally turn a dollar on it¹s hybrid business which has been sucking up more than 1B$ in sunk costs for the last couple of years. This¹ll be an interesting one to watch. Posted by Jeremy C. Wright at 11:57 am in Business. Hi I am parts manager at a Toyota dealership. From what I have read and heard at tech training.... Ford bought the electric and trans from Toyota, but not the software. Then came back later and bought the software. > > >> As you probably don't know, Ford licenses its hybrid drive for the > > >> Escape from Toyota. [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > This¹ll be an interesting one to watch. > Posted by Jeremy C. Wright at 11:57 am in Business. > | It's so full of outright lies that it boggles the mind. GM does > | not have Toyota parts. The battery warranty is MUCH longer than 4 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > He wirks at the dealer ship and was sent to Toyota factory training > so bite me. If that is true, why did you refer to him as a GM mechanic and not a Toyota mechanic? Your story is so full of holes that it is just not believable. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. > Well there is a flipside, you may get 45 mpg and produce less ozone > pollution, but now the rest of the story. My brother-in-law is a GM [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of > warranty. Ready for the facts when you are. The main battery is expected to last the life of the car and is warranted for at least 8 years... unless he is trying to say all those people are putting an average of more than 25K miles per year on their cars and experiencing failures others aren't. Main battery failures are extremely rare - nobody else is reporting them, and you can be sure it would be hot news if they were. Are you *that* gullible, or do you think we are? Is your brother-in-law is lying to you or are you lying to us? Perhaps he is too incompetent to realize the batteries are still good, or so crooked he knowingly sells unnecessary expensive parts to customers. Those are the only logical possibilities. Let us know which it is, will ya? Mike | > Well there is a flipside, you may get 45 mpg and produce less ozone | > pollution, but now the rest of the story. My brother-in-law is a GM [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | sure it would be hot news if they were. Are you *that* gullible, or do you | think we are? Many people where I live drive 200 + miles a day to work because there is not any work here. Also, just because you do not hear about something doesn't mean it is not happening. There hundreds of recalls each day on consumer items do you hear about each one? | Is your brother-in-law is lying to you or are you lying to us? Perhaps he is | too incompetent to realize the batteries are still good, or so crooked he | knowingly sells unnecessary expensive parts to customers. Those are the only | logical possibilities. Let us know which it is, will ya? Everyone has their own opinions but it is pretty crude to call someone a liar and thief when you do not know them you must be a real piece of work. SignatureHarryS My 2? > | Is your brother-in-law is lying to you or are you lying to us? Perhaps > he [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Everyone has their own opinions but it is pretty crude to call someone a > liar and thief when you do not know them you must be a real piece of work. Nobody else has reported this, and it would be mighty big news since Prius is really big news. Any reporter who could verify a problem with failures of Prius main batteries would have the scoop of his lifetime. In the Yahoo Prius group - a subscriber forum - there is at least one Prius tech and one Toyota tech; neither has reported a single main battery failure. The same group has more than 11000 members at present, and with more than 86000 posts I've never seen a post about a main battery failure. Googling "acura transmission fail" produces 6600 hits, and they all seem to be about why the transmissions are failing - this matches the posts in the alt.autos.acura news group. Googling "prius battery fail" produces 5300 hits, and all of them I see are speculation about the battery life - this matches the posts in this group and in the Yahoo group. If you have some more reliable reference than your brother-in-law, whom you acknowledge is a GM mechanic regardless of his schooling so will see few Toyotas and far fewer Prius, I'm open to input. But it is very safe to say it just isn't happening on a significant scale. By any measure the life expectancy of the Prius main battery is better than that of most engines and most transmissions, and the warranty is at least as good as those parts. The conclusions are inescapable. The battery failures you say your brother-in-law is reporting simply aren't happening at anything like the rate he reports, and he is in no better position to know than we are. There isn't a lot of room for misunderstanding; there are two batteries and the 12 volt aux battery fails as often as conventional batteries in conventional cars, but the price tag you mention is ten times the price of the aux battery so we can rule out confusion over that. If the information is clearly wrong and there is little room for honest mistake, the conclusion is inescapable. Knowing somebody or not knowing them does not affect the logic of the situation. Nobody is necessarily a liar *and* a thief; only one or the other (or he is just not competent). Just the facts. Mike > | > Well there is a flipside, you may get 45 mpg and produce less ozone > | > pollution, but now the rest of the story. My brother-in-law is a GM [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Everyone has their own opinions but it is pretty crude to call someone a > liar and thief when you do not know them you must be a real piece of work. Wow, an 8 hour commute to work, work 8 hours, sleep 8 hours... I'd move. > > Main battery failures are extremely rare - nobody else is reporting > > them, and you can be sure it would be hot news if they were. Are you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not any work here. Also, just because you do not hear about something > doesn't mean it is not happening. We're not talking about a general something, we're talking specifically about Prius traction battery failures, and if those were occurring more than extremely rarely, we most certainly _would_ be hearing about them. Let's see, we have this newsgroup, a number of web forums (PriusChat, PriusOnine and others), and a bunch of Yahoo mailing lists, and in none of these have people posted about battery failures. If they're happening, they're only happening to people who don't read any of these sources and don't know anyone who do. Oh, and how about all of the reports on the Prius on television and in print? None of these have picked up on the problem you claim exists. Odd, isn't it? SignatureMike Rosenberg <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart People are questioning your "facts" because there are so many inconsistencies. First off, you're referencing a GM dealership, which is a pretty strange place to take your Prius for warranty work. Or you're talking about a hybrid other than Prius, which doesn't make sense in a Prius-specific newsgroup. Even if it's the only place in town, nobody would expect a GM tech to have detailed expertise (training and multiple-vehicle experience) with a new Toyota product. Your original post only identified the vehicle's age - well within the Hybrid System warranty window. Only later did you mention that they may be over 100,000 miles in such a short timeframe. Even that begs the question - if someone is buying a new-technology vehicle, knowing they'll drive it excessively, then why didn't they purchase a relatively inexpensive Extended Warranty? Based on the assumption that these vehicles have been driven over 100,000 miles (thus ending the warranty) - then they've saved their owners at least $9,000 in gasoline costs. Not insignificant when you're highlighting a $4,000 battery replacement. In response to people questioning your "facts", the response is name-calling and "because I said so". This newsgroup is a new and very small forum for discussing the Prius. There are many places where lively discussions take place daily - and nobody holds back when there's a serious or even perceived problem to be discussed. Yet early battery failure has never been mentioned. You may want to check out http://www.yahoogroups.com and subscribe to the Prius-2G group. > | > Well there is a flipside, you may get 45 mpg and produce less ozone > | > pollution, but now the rest of the story. My brother-in-law is a GM [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Everyone has their own opinions but it is pretty crude to call someone a > liar and thief when you do not know them you must be a real piece of work. Toyota says that *nobody* has replaced a traction battery for wear and tear. This does not include damage in accidents, of course. Is your BIL perhaps talking about the 12V aux battery? To quote Toyota's press release: http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=2004062 3 How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement cost? The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear. > Since the car went on > sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for > wear and tear. Inquiring minds want to know: what _have_ they replaced them for? SignatureDaniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at world dot ess tee dee dot com "Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print! Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/ > > Since the car went on > > sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for > > wear and tear. > > Inquiring minds want to know: what _have_ they replaced them for? Uhh, I dunno. I have not heard of any warranty replacements. I've heard on this group about a replacement done due to a stereo shop using 4 inch self-tapping screws on a speaker installation, impaling two inches of screw into several cells. I can also imagine that if hit hard enough from behind, the batteries would need replacement (along with everything else behind the drivers compartment!) KK >> Since the car went on >> sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for >> wear and tear. > > Inquiring minds want to know: what _have_ they replaced them for? >> Well there is a flipside, you may get 45 mpg and produce less ozone >> pollution, but now the rest of the story. My brother-in-law is a GM [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > sure it would be hot news if they were. Are you *that* gullible, or do you > think we are? In addition, the main (traction) battery is modular. In the rare event of a failure, the entire battery doesn't ned to be replaced, just the failed module. In California and other California-emission states the battery warranty is 10 years and 120,000 miles, far longer than any gasoline engine warranty. > > Well there is a flipside, you may get 45 mpg and produce less ozone > > pollution, but now the rest of the story. My brother-in-law is a GM [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Mike * And what kind of batteries is a GM mechanic changing anyway? earle * > More and more people are now on the Hybrid band wagon especially now when > gas is high. The tree huggers like them and say they are good for the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > replaced the battery units on several that were just 4 years old and out of > warranty. * Your GM brother-in-law is out of touch. My '05 Prius has a guarantee (non-pro-rated) on the entire electrical system, including the batteries, for 120,000 miles or ten years. Last I heard, GM was pushing hydrogen. My guess is that my Prius battery will be at the end of its warranty before GM sells you a hydrogen-powered vehicle. Read the latest (April, '05) Scientific American about current progress on hydrogen-fueled cars. There are humungous problems still to be solved before it becomes really practical. They say it could be between ten and 50 years before it is economically feasible. earle * Many other posters have already replied. All I want to say is the your brother-in-laws does not know a thing about the Prius. You should do your own research instead of believing all those lies. Since he is a GM mechanic, he may have a hidden agenda. |
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