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Car Forum / Toyota / Prius / June 2007reserve fuel
How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have just bought a used 05. Twice the warning has come on and I've only been able to put about 9 gallons in the tank. Doesn't the tank hold 12 gallons? Do I really have 3 gallons left in the tank? There is one way to find out, but I understand that you have to put 3 gallons in it if you run out of gas before the car will restart. That would make it tough to carry in a one gallon can. Thanks, Bruce The tank contains a bladder that shrinks and expands, depending internal and ambient temperatures. So, the amount of fuel indicated when the warning appears is a wide ranging variable. i.e. I've read histories that indicate you have anywhere from 50 to over a 100 miles left to go before the tank is really empty, and the car actually runs out of gas. Just add gas at your earliest convenience when the last fuel gauge bar starts flashing and you should be fine. $50 a Day Income in 30 days or Less Now Do It Easy http://1stbe.com/0-50 Guru Says GOODBYE To Search Engines http://1stBe.com/goodbye-search-engines > How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have > just bought a used 05. Twice the warning has come on and I've only [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks, > Bruce > The tank contains a bladder that shrinks and expands, > depending internal and ambient temperatures. So, the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I recently ran my 07, OUT of gas. The meter started flashing just as I left my driveway, about 47 miles from my job. A few mild hills, freeway - doing 70-75 mph. After work on way to the nearest gas station (about 1/4 mile away) It shuttered and bucked a few times. The red triangle of death (and tone) came on. I was on pure battery. Made it OK. I shoehorned in 11 gallons, and I had to be really persistent to get that much in there. It restarted after only a few second delay (whew). Anyway, I saw a post on prius.chat. This guy had taken apart a prius fuel tank assy. (with pictures) Its more of a kind of module actually. The fuel pump & filter, sending unit and other stuff is in there also the gas bladdler (yes the gas tank is a sort of rubber bladder, think hot water bottle) it is sealed in a metal shell. Apparently you can OVERFILL and burst the bladder. (which is how this guy got one to inspect.) > Anyway, I saw a post on prius.chat. This guy had taken apart a > prius fuel tank assy. (with pictures) Its more of a kind of module [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Apparently you can OVERFILL and burst the bladder. (which is how this > guy got one to inspect.) The story and pictures are at http://priuschat.com/the-gas-bladder-exposed-t31545.html I also have an '05. I typically wait for the last block on the gage to start flashing and then drive 30-50 miles more before refueling. The most I have ever put into the tank was 9.8 gallons. > How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have > just bought a used 05. Twice the warning has come on and I've only [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks, > Bruce > How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have > just bought a used 05. Twice the warning has come on and I've only [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks, > Bruce I was about to say there's probably no real fuel sensor in the tank but then how would the gauge respond to how much fuel was put into the tank? LOL I set the trip odometer, and when I get the warning to refuel I check to see how many miles I've driven. I get a warning around 430 miles, (this time of the year) usually there's still 3 to 3 1/2 gallons left in the tank. In the summer I still get a warning around 430 miles but there's still 4 to 4 1/2 gallons left. I think it was designed this way to give us something to complain about ;) It may seem like an inconvenience but if there's been a sudden spike in fuel prices, 8 to fill is better than 11 3/4 to fill. Right? I guess I'm just trying to understand. If there is 3 1/2 gallons left in the tank, can I drive another 150 miles? The other question is regarding the procedure if I run out of gas. I have read somewhere that the computer in the Prius senses when you run out of gas and won't let the engine start until more gas is added. However, you have to put about 3 gallons in the tank to reset the sensor. Normally you walk/hitch to the nearest gas station and beg a gallon container and buy a gallon of gas. Would I have to get 3 gallons to reset the sensor so the computer would allow the engine to restart? This all hypothetical, I hope. I want to understand these new procedures, just in case. On the other hand if I refill within 40-50 miles of the alarm, it is a moot point. Thanks for the info, Bruce >> How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have >> just bought a used 05. Twice the warning has come on and I've only [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >It may seem like an inconvenience but if there's been a sudden spike in fuel >prices, 8 to fill is better than 11 3/4 to fill. Right? > The other question is regarding the procedure if I run out of gas. I > have read somewhere that the computer in the Prius senses when you > run out of gas and won't let the engine start until more gas is > added. When you run out of gas, the car keeps running on battery power until the battery is depleted. It is not a good idea to do this, though. > However, you have to put about 3 gallons in the tank to reset the > sensor. The sensor that requires three gallons is the sensor that displays miles per gallon and distance since the MPG display was reset. It has nothing to do with starting the car. The one time I ran out of gas, two gallons was enough for me to drive again, using the gasoline engine. I don't know whether less gas would have done it because the roadside assistance guy brought only two gallons. If you have 3 1/2 gallons left in the tank, you should be able to drive another 135 (45 MPG) to 150 (50 MPG) miles. I act on the assumption that when the last bar starts blinking, I have 2 gallons left in the tank.  SignatureSupport the troops: Bring them home ASAP. > I guess I'm just trying to understand. If there is 3 1/2 gallons left > in the tank, can I drive another 150 miles? Well, *if* there were 3 gallons left in the tank, then yes you could. But the key point here is that, because of the tank bladder, you cannot reliably predict, from the amount you put in at the last fill and the distance travelled since then, how much "ought to" be left in the tank. When the last pip starts to flash you really do need to buy gas immediately. The forums ore filled with sad tales of people who assumed that they could drive another 50 or 20 or 10 miles after they reached that point, and were wrong. I think I understand that while the Prius has a 12+ gallon tank, when the light blinks don't bet on more than about 50 miles. My limited experience has been that I can't put more than about 9 gallons in the tank at that point. It appears that the 12+ gallon tank (at least in my car) doesn't really hold that much. At least I know how to proceed. Thanks, Bruce >> I guess I'm just trying to understand. If there is 3 1/2 gallons left >> in the tank, can I drive another 150 miles? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >that they could drive another 50 or 20 or 10 miles after they reached >that point, and were wrong. > I think I understand that while the Prius has a 12+ gallon tank, Actually an 11.9 gallon (45 liter) tank, in the USA. SignatureSupport the troops: Bring them home ASAP. > I think I understand that while the Prius has a 12+ gallon tank, 11.9 gallons. >I guess I'm just trying to understand. If there is 3 1/2 gallons left > in the tank, can I drive another 150 miles? ----- If? Maybe. > I guess I'm just trying to understand. If there is 3 1/2 gallons left > in the tank, can I drive another 150 miles? _If_ there's actually that much gas left, then yes, but that's not something you can possibly know and certainly not something you should rely on. Speaking from experience, you shouldn't assume you can go more than 50 miles when the warning light comes on. Signature<http://designsbymike.biz/macconsultshop.shtml> Mac-themed T-shirts <http://designsbymike.biz/musings.shtml> Mostly muckraking T-shirts <http://designsbymike.biz/prius.shtml> Prius shirts & bumper stickers <http://cafepress.com/comedancing> Ballroom dance-themed shirts & gift > How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have > just bought a used 05. Twice the warning has come on and I've only [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks, > Bruce Really not an answer, but it may lead to one: excellent photo show of a gas tank disassembly at http://priuschat.com/the-gas-bladder-exposed-t31545.html I'm wondering if the "low fuel" warning is activated when the "everything tank" is no longer full of fuel. It looks like the bladder is essentially a reservoir for that smaller tank. Mike Mike >> How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have >> just bought a used 05. Twice the warning has come on and I've only [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Mike I used to think the bladder was shaped like an enema bag or an intravenous drip bag one would see in a hospital. So, my question, if you can answer it, does this bladder simply rise as it's filled or does it expand all around? Is there really a way an over-fill gets dumped (wasted)? >>> How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have >>> just bought a used 05. Twice the warning has come on and I've only [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > expand all around? Is there really a way an over-fill gets dumped > (wasted)? Dunno about how it expands. From the pictures there and at http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid13.pdf it looks like it just expands vertically. The same link says "Trying to force additional fuel into the tank pushes excess fuel into the EVAP system. This may cause an EVAP DTC and may even require the replacement of some EVAP system components." I've heard of charcoal canister replecements that were blamed on overfilling, but I have no direct knowledge. Mike On Apr 8, 10:09 am, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltn...@cybertrails.com> wrote: > >>> How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have > >>> just bought a used 05. Twice the warning has come on and I've only [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > of charcoal canister replecements that were blamed on overfilling, but I > have no direct knowledge. It hasn't happened to me personally (always attend to the nozzle while filling, and stop putting gas in when the pump clicks off the first time), but reports are that if you overfill, expect the bladder to belch/spit up fuel at you and all over the side of the car... > It hasn't happened to me personally (always attend to the nozzle while > filling, and stop putting gas in when the pump clicks off the first > time), but reports are that if you overfill, expect the bladder to > belch/spit up fuel at you and all over the side of the car... A bad pump handle that won't shut off, or an obstructed shutoff valve, will cause a situation where more gas is being pumped in than the bladder tank can handle. The bladder expands with the excess fuel, just like a balloon. Pull the handle out and release the pressure, and the bladder vomits the excess out all over you as it contracts back to the size and shape it wants to be at the time. And very seriously, you risk getting gas in the space between the bladder and the outer (steel) tank walls. The Prius has sensors for this. Should this happen, guess what the price is to fix the problem. Ready? Really? Are you really ready? Really, really ready? $1000. A thousand dollars. Yes. One Thousand Dollars. People, use some common sense and don't top it off or otherwise try to force more gas in than a well-running pump handle wants to put in it. >> It hasn't happened to me personally (always attend to the nozzle while >> filling, and stop putting gas in when the pump clicks off the first [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > People, use some common sense and don't top it off or otherwise try to > force more gas in than a well-running pump handle wants to put in it. How can a bladder that is supposed to collapse as the fuel is used, and meant to keep gasoline vapors from escaping, have a way for gasoline to make it's way between the outside of the bladder and the inside of the metal tank?? Doesn't make sense. >>> It hasn't happened to me personally (always attend to the nozzle while >>> filling, and stop putting gas in when the pump clicks off the first [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > make it's way between the outside of the bladder and the inside of the > metal tank?? Doesn't make sense. If I remember correctly, you don't directly fill the bladder. It goes through the first tank, then into the bladder. I just don't see how this can happen as you explained it. > >> People, use some common sense and don't top it off or otherwise try to > >> force more gas in than a well-running pump handle wants to put in it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > make it's way between the outside of the bladder and the inside of the > > metal tank?? Doesn't make sense. A thread which discusses exactly such an incident, diagnosed by a Prius certified tech: http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=31545&hl=tank > If I remember correctly, you don't directly fill the bladder. It goes > through the first tank, then into the bladder. I just don't see how this > can happen as you explained it. A detailed description of the Prius fuel assembly in all its expensive and horrifying glory: http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid13.pdf (Nota bene: I'm a very happy Prius owner. Insert the fuel pump nozzle fully into the fill pipe, keep your hand on the nozzle ready to shut it off if needed, and don't even think about topping off.) > A bad pump handle that won't shut off, or an obstructed shutoff valve, > will cause a situation where more gas is being pumped in than the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bladder and the outer (steel) tank walls. The Prius has sensors for > this. How would this be indicated? Will a diagnostic trouble code show up or Check Engine light go on? > > And very seriously, you risk getting gas in the space between the > > bladder and the outer (steel) tank walls. The Prius has sensors for > > this. > > How would this be indicated? Will a diagnostic trouble code show up or > Check Engine light go on? Yep. >> It hasn't happened to me personally (always attend to the nozzle while >> filling, and stop putting gas in when the pump clicks off the first [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > bladder and the outer (steel) tank walls. The Prius has sensors for > this. Should this happen, guess what the price is to fix the problem. Which brilliant mind at Toyota USA came up with the plan of putting bladders in only the USA models of the Prius? Why go to all the ridiculous expense of having an unnecessary bladder which restricts maximum fill up volumes and requires expensive sensors and costly repairs if fuel escapes the bladder instead of having the design made for Japan and the rest of the world? Why do features like EV mode get left out of the USA market when it's available elsewhere? World market Prius outside USA without a bladder don't have any problems with filling up the tank to maximum every time (and in my case I regularly fill up in excess of 12 gallons with a fill one time being 53.6 litres (just over 14 gallons)) I can't believe that the poor USA Prius drivers therefore only have 75% of the range before fill up as my Prius. Does it have something to do with the reason why USA Prius buyers get screwed with inferior tyres to the standard Michelin tyres provided elsewhere? Is this just another way that USA companies agree to perpetuate the 'American standards must be different to everywhere else' attitude? > I can't believe that the poor USA Prius drivers therefore only have > 75% of the range before fill up as my Prius. I got 510 miles on my last tank of gas. The bladder is because of emissions controls in the US. SignatureSupport the troops: Bring them home ASAP. >> I can't believe that the poor USA Prius drivers therefore only have >> 75% of the range before fill up as my Prius. > > I got 510 miles on my last tank of gas. And I regularly get an average of 620 miles per tank with a few approaching 750 miles thanks to having no bladder. > The bladder is because of emissions controls in the US. Excuse my ignorance but what emissions are you talking about? The tiny amount of vapour that escapes from the tank when you fill up??? It must be some kind of inside joke that the USA cares about the vapour emissions from inside the fuel tank of a Prius when almost no other vehicle has a bladder and the emission is tiny compared to what comes out of the exhaust pipe. Surely it would be far more beneficial to limit contaminants in fuel like sulfer in diesel which still has absurdly high limits in the U.S. compared to other countries rather than imposing a stupid design feature for a market that doesn't have a noticeable benefit! > > The bladder is because of emissions controls in the US. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > compared to other countries rather than imposing a stupid design feature > for a market that doesn't have a noticeable benefit! On the other hand, how long did it take Europe to stop putting lead in fuel? But I agree that the bladder does seem extreme. >> The bladder is because of emissions controls in the US. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to other countries rather than imposing a stupid design feature for a > market that doesn't have a noticeable benefit! Evaporative control has been a focus here for a couple decades. It must have been about ten years ago that gas pumps nationally had to be fitted with vapor return systems. Evap control is important enough that monitoring is required in OBDII, since 1996. Hydrocarbons are an important constituent of photochemical smog and a source of ground level ozone. Many large US cities are in violation of EPA ozone standards too much of the winter. Mike > It must have > been about ten years ago that gas pumps nationally had to be fitted with > vapor return systems. Nope. None here. Not a federal mandate in the least. >> It must have >> been about ten years ago that gas pumps nationally had to be fitted with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Not a federal mandate in the least. Every now and then when I'm filling up at an obscure location, I find the pump spout a little light. I look, ah! No vapor recovery. Then I wonder why this particular station hasn't gotten up to speed. Seeing that just about every gas pump in locations I visited in Colorado two years ago were minus recovery systems I'll stick my neck out and say it's probably a state mandated thing with their own time tables. I welcome a correction if I'm wrong about this. > Every now and then when I'm filling up at an obscure location, I find the > pump spout a little light. I look, ah! No vapor recovery. Then I wonder [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > state mandated thing with their own time tables. I welcome a correction if > I'm wrong about this. As far as I know, and I could be wrong about this, too, it's up to the individual state whether to require this _and_ whether that requirement is state-wide or just in more heavily populated areas. I know I've been in states (and please don't ask me to remember which) where the pumps in rural areas haven't had recovery systems but the pumps in urban areas have. Signature<http://designsbymike.biz/macconsultshop.shtml> Mac-themed T-shirts <http://designsbymike.biz/musings.shtml> Mostly muckraking T-shirts <http://designsbymike.biz/prius.shtml> Prius shirts & bumper stickers <http://cafepress.com/comedancing> Ballroom dance-themed shirts & gift >> It must have >> been about ten years ago that gas pumps nationally had to be fitted with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Not a federal mandate in the least. Don't know about a federal mandate on that, but in Arizona we got those bulky bellows things for a while about the same time California did it. Later they were changed out for the type that didn't form a seal but had a coaxial recovery system. The only visible difference was the hose was thicker; more like 2 inch diameter than 1 inch. Where are you located? Mike >>> It must have >>> been about ten years ago that gas pumps nationally had to be fitted with [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Mike It used to be the nozzle had to be pushed in all the way otherwise you couldn't put fuel in. One day I tried to put fuel in a plastic container and ended up shooting fuel on the ground because I had to push too hard and knocked the jug over. Within a few weeks I was back trying to do the same thing and discovered the fuel would come out without making the recovery shield retract back. Again, I shot fuel on the ground because I pulled the trigger thinking it wouldn't come out. As far as I can tell, I think I'm in synch with the fueling station now. Thank god. >>> The bladder is because of emissions controls in the US. >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Mike Are you sure? I know someone who works for the EPA. What he told me about air quality in the winter is opposite what you say. > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Are you sure? I know someone who works for the EPA. What he told me about > air quality in the winter is opposite what you say. Not positive, but at least in Phoenix the ozone days are in winter. We're always getting the alerts at work. FWIW, that's when oxygenated fuel is mandatory in the Valley (dunno about statewide, but we do get it up here). Mike > Which brilliant mind at Toyota USA came up with the plan of putting > bladders in only the USA models of the Prius? > Why go to all the ridiculous expense of having an unnecessary bladder > which restricts maximum fill up volumes and requires expensive sensors > and costly repairs if fuel escapes the bladder instead of having the > design made for Japan and the rest of the world? Because it allows them to classify it as an even cleaner car. > Why do features like EV mode get left out of the USA market when it's > available elsewhere? Because there's legislation against user switchable propulsion source. > Does it have something to do with the reason why USA Prius buyers get > screwed with inferior tyres to the standard Michelin tyres provided > elsewhere? If the Michelin's are good, then the car's roadholding must be really, really bad ;-) > Is this just another way that USA companies agree to perpetuate the > 'American standards must be different to everywhere else' attitude? I wished they gave Europe some of the american standards. Notably the discharge lamps, because the H4 are seriously bad. Again, it's a legislation issue. cu .\\arc Speaking of the fuel system, this may be of interest: http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid13.pdf - Doug > How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have > just bought a used 05. Twice the warning has come on and I've only [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks, > Bruce > Speaking of the fuel system, this may be of interest: > > http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid13.pdf > > - Doug That's a great site, Doug. > How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have That depends on your individual car. I've heard of cars hitting the OOG (out of gas) christmas tree lights/ engine stall at anywhere from no blinking last fuel pip/add fuel warning, to over 150 miles later... at 1/4 tank remaining (2-3 bars), start looking for a gas station (convenience, price, etc.), like the owner's manual suggests. at 1 bar remaining, you really should stop at the next convenient gas station... at 1 bar flashing/add fuel warning, stop at the next gas station! OOG/warning lights - coast to a safe area, like the side of the road or preferrably to a gas station if you can make it there. Refuel with as much gas as you can (a 1gal can from you walking to a gas station or from a vehicle road service company should do), and restart the car and go to the closest available gas station and fill up completely. You only have about 3 restarts of the car/engine once you hit OOG before the hybrid battery is too depleted to be able to start your car again that you may need a trip to a dealer for special servicing, should you not be able to get the 3+ gallons needed to reset the fuel gage. Then again, I never understood the concern of Prius owners over getting the cheapest gas station... The most local varience I've seen is about 10 cents a gallon between stations, and considering that most Prius fillups won't take more than 10 gallons that's only a $1 difference for a fillup. I see people pay way more than that on a morning cup of coffee daily and never complain. >> How much gas is in the tank when the fuel warning comes on? I have > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > difference for a fillup. I see people pay way more than that on a > morning cup of coffee daily and never complain. A call for help in the alt.autos.volvo forum recently reminds me of another good reason not to wait to the last moment. The poor fellow was looking for help on getting the gas cap door to unlatch. Hate to do that with only a gallon or so left in the tank. Mike > Then again, I never understood the concern of Prius owners over > getting the cheapest gas station... Besides the fact that you're putting in only a few gallons and that extra 10 cents/gallon is virtually meaningless, there's the fact that the cheapest gas to buy is frequently the most expensive gas to run on a cents per mile basis. |
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