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Car Forum / Toyota / Prius / November 2007

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Contrast Prius and Civic Hybrids

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News - 17 Jun 2007 17:27 GMT
We are looking to acquire a 4 door hybrid in the fall, and are now entering
the research phase, prior to the dealership visit phase.

We are long time (30+ years) Honda owners, but hybrids are sufficiently
different to dispense with blind marque loyalty.

Can anyone contrast the pros and cons of Prius versus Civic Hybrid?

TIA.
Michelle Steiner - 17 Jun 2007 17:50 GMT
> Can anyone contrast the pros and cons of Prius versus Civic Hybrid?

Here is Edmunds comparison:  They compared the 05 Prius to the 06 Civic
Hybrid, but both cars have had little change for the 07 models.

<http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=108445>

Motor Trend's comparison of the 06 models (along with two other hybrids):
<http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hybrid/112_0604_hybrid_sedan_compari
son/>

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News - 17 Jun 2007 18:01 GMT
>>Can anyone contrast the pros and cons of Prius versus Civic Hybrid?
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> <http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hybrid/112_0604_hybrid_sedan_compari
> son/>

Thanks.  Good backgrounders.

Any list denizens' 'real world' experiences?

My understanding is that ICE versus Motor use biasing software changes on
these cars has been somewhat frequent and regional as well.  Comments?
Michelle Steiner - 17 Jun 2007 18:06 GMT
> My understanding is that ICE versus Motor use biasing software
> changes on these cars has been somewhat frequent and regional as
> well.  Comments?

They use completely different paradigms.  With the Prius, you can drive
on ICE, motor, or both.  With the Civic Hybrid, you're always driving on
both.

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mrv@kluge.net - 17 Jun 2007 18:05 GMT
> We are looking to acquire a 4 door hybrid in the fall, and are now entering
> the research phase, prior to the dealership visit phase.

Depending on where you live, there are many 4 door hybrid choices for
you.  Also, are you looking for a new vehicle, or will a used vehicle
be OK for you?  (If you want a 4-door with a manual transmission, you
can only get that in a used Honda Civic Hybrid.)  What size vehicle
are you looking for?

I think the only hybrid that isn't a 4 door is the 2-seater Honda
Insight (coupe), but that's only available as used now (no longer
offered new).

The Civic Hybrid is currently alone in the compact car size category.
(The older Classic (sedan, model NHW11) Prius was also a compact, now
only available as a used model.)  Be aware that the HCH underwent a
design change recently (often the newer one is referred to as a HCH II
in online groups), so not all of the information you may read only may
be current.  (For example, there are some times when the car is moving
that the gasoline engine is not required to be on/you're in electric,
in the newer HCH.)  The HCH I compared pretty well in price and
options and fuel economy and emissions to the Classic Prius, so it
pretty much was whatever one you personally liked better on a test
drive or for brand reasons.

In the midsize car category, there's a lot of choices:
The Honda Accord Hybrid was a performance hybrid (with all the high-
end gadgets as well), and not an effiency hybrid, so its sales were
lackluster and also will soon no longer be offered new (but there are
still some on the lots).

Then you've got the new Nissan Altima Hybrid.  I haven't been
following it much...  but sales of the hybrid model is limited to 8
states at the moment.

The current NHW20 model Toyota Prius, which is a hatchback.  Since it
is a different size class than the Civic hybrid, I don't think that it
is fair to compare it to the Civic.

The Toyota Camry Hybrid.

The Lexus GS450h.  (Again, a performance hybrid...)

The Saturn Aura Hybrid (new model for Saturn, soon out as a 2008
model)  Again, I don't know much about it, only that it is using the
GM "hybrid" system and is fairly lackluster in efficiency...)

And then the SUV category is getting pretty full:
Ford Escape
Mercury Mariner
Mazda Tribute (soon out as a 2008 mpdel)
Lexus RX400h (performance, again...)
Saturn Vue Green Line (barely better fuel economy than the Lexus
RX400h!)
Toyota Highlander Hybrid

I don't think that the "hybrid" pickup trucks are 4-door models, nor
do I really consider them much of a hybrid (all GM products), so I
won't mention them...

(Note that if you're looking for a hybrid tax credit on your US
Federal income tax returns, that there is a sunset provision on the
available credits.  Toyota/Lexus already passed their trigger point,
and no credit will be available for deliveries of new Toyota/Lexus
hybrids on/after Oct. 1, 2007.  I'd also suggest earlier rather than
later for purchases of other makes of hybrids, to get the full credit
as well.  http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html )

I'd suggest that you just go out and test drive the available hybrids,
and see what fits you and your needs better.  And more research.  Good
luck!

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs.shtml
http://www.greenhybrid.com/
http://www.hybridcars.com/
mrv@kluge.net - 18 Jun 2007 18:48 GMT
On Jun 17, 1:05 pm, "m...@kluge.net" <m...@kluge.net> wrote:

> > We are looking to acquire a 4 door hybrid in the fall, and are now entering
> > the research phase, prior to the dealership visit phase.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> [US models deleted]

How silly of me to forget some of the other consumer hybrids on the
market:
1997-2000 Toyota Prius, NHW10 model.  Originally only sold in Japan,
but is now showing up grey market in some other countries.  Support/
parts/service outside of Japan is difficult, so I'd advise against it
if you're not in Japan.

Toyota Crown (mild-hybrid), sedan.  (Japan only)

and for the minivan/MPV set:
Toyota Estima Hybrid and the Toyota Alphard Hybrid.   Unfortunately,
still only sold in Japan, but perhaps a few hybrid Estimas may be
moving grey-market outside of Japan by now (same servicing concerns
outside of Japan, though).
Michael Pardee - 17 Jun 2007 18:07 GMT
> We are looking to acquire a 4 door hybrid in the fall, and are now
> entering the research phase, prior to the dealership visit phase.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> TIA.

Not very current, so it may not apply as well to the current generation
Prius: the "conventional wisdom" was that the Civic Hybrid was better suited
to freeway travel while the Prius was the champion around town. The Prius
has some reputation as being tiring to drive on freeways, but I don't find
that particularly so.

Mike
Michelle Steiner - 17 Jun 2007 18:18 GMT
> The Prius has some reputation as being tiring to drive on freeways,
> but I don't find that particularly so.

I've driven mine from Chandler, AZ to Las Vegas (once), to Sacramento
(three or four times), to San Francisco two or three times, to LA once,
and to San Diego once or twice.  I didn't find it to be tiring at all,
no more than driving an Acura TL was.

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Mike Rosenberg - 17 Jun 2007 19:01 GMT
> I've driven mine from Chandler, AZ to Las Vegas (once), to Sacramento
> (three or four times), to San Francisco two or three times, to LA once,
> and to San Diego once or twice.  I didn't find it to be tiring at all,
> no more than driving an Acura TL was.

And I've made numerous trips between here (Jacksonville, FL) and Olney,
MD, about 740 miles each way, and find it considerably less tiring than
driving my Geo Prizm was.

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News - 17 Jun 2007 21:29 GMT
>>The Prius has some reputation as being tiring to drive on freeways,
>>but I don't find that particularly so.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and to San Diego once or twice.  I didn't find it to be tiring at all,
> no more than driving an Acura TL was.

Is this highway behavior what various references to aftermarket front
suspension mods refer to?
Michelle Steiner - 17 Jun 2007 21:45 GMT
> >>The Prius has some reputation as being tiring to drive on freeways,
> >>but I don't find that particularly so.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Is this highway behavior what various references to aftermarket front
> suspension mods refer to?

I have no idea; I haven't seen any of those references.  And the highway
behavior is OK in my experience.

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Mike Rosenberg - 17 Jun 2007 22:59 GMT
> > Is this highway behavior what various references to aftermarket front
> > suspension mods refer to?
>
> I have no idea; I haven't seen any of those references.

I don't recall having seen any, either.  Do you have any links we can
take a look at?

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News - 17 Jun 2007 23:15 GMT
>>>Is this highway behavior what various references to aftermarket front
>>>suspension mods refer to?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I don't recall having seen any, either.  Do you have any links we can
> take a look at?

Various references to "BT Tech" chassis stiffening mods (several) and
"Tom's lower body brace" with same intent, integrated approach.
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 17 Jun 2007 19:58 GMT
> We are looking to acquire a 4 door hybrid in the fall, and are now entering
> the research phase, prior to the dealership visit phase.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Can anyone contrast the pros and cons of Prius versus Civic Hybrid?

I love my Hondas.  I, too, am a 25+ year Honda owner.  I have a superb
Honda dealership with the only technician I've allowed to touch my Honda
cars, ever.  Honda cars have never let me down.

That being said, I recently got a company car--a Prius.  (The other
choice was a GM; no thanks, buddy, no thanks.)  As I drive the car and
look into it further, I am convinced that Toyota put some serious genius
into this entire situation.  They look at it as a system, found the weak
spots, exploited the technology, and built one helluva package.

It's so good, both my wife and I have decided that we'd spend our own
money on one.

Honda's system isn't bad, but Toyota's is so good, it makes Honda's
system look all the worse.

Toyota's system leads to less maintenance.  It has no starter, no
transmission (those are expensive repairs nowadays), a straightforward
efficient engine tuned to the task, the engine is disconnected from the
wheels by the very ingenious Power Split Device (which replaces your
transmission), the air conditioner is run off the battery and not off
the engine, and so on.

In fact, disconnecting many accessories from the engine is part of what
makes a hybrid good.  When you choose not to disconnect these things
from the engine, as Honda chose not to, you're giving up efficiency.

Imagine crawling through downtown during summer rush hour, the engine is
completely off, you're idling from light to light using only the
batter--and you're staying perfectly cool because the AC is running at
full blast.  It's not running at that half-blast that a normal idling
car gives because it can't turn the compressor fast enough and power the
cabin fan enough.

Imagine getting full power out of the system on demand because the
engine isn't running the AC compressor directly.

The Prius is a large car, surprisingly so.  Yet it turns on a dime.  Try
it.  I don't know how they violated the laws of physics, but they did.

I just wish the Prius came with a trunk instead of a hatchback--but
that's just me and my particular situation.  For my own non-work
purposes, a hatch would be fine.

The Prius is available with more high-tech goodies.  If you're a geek,
you love that.

s
News - 17 Jun 2007 21:24 GMT
>>We are looking to acquire a 4 door hybrid in the fall, and are now entering
>>the research phase, prior to the dealership visit phase.
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> s

Very informative and helpful.  Thanks!
mrv@kluge.net - 18 Jun 2007 01:14 GMT
> Imagine getting full power out of the system on demand because the
> engine isn't running the AC compressor directly.

On your Prius, probably.  Not on mine.  NHW11 Prius uses a belt-driven
AC compressor.  NHW20 Prius (current hatchback) is powered by the
hybrid battery as you state.

> I just wish the Prius came with a trunk instead of a hatchback--but
> that's just me and my particular situation.  For my own non-work
> purposes, a hatch would be fine.

My 2001 Prius has a trunk.  8)  I like trunks, and since the current
Prius doesn't have a trunk (hatchback), *IF* I needed to replace my
2001 Prius I'd either get a used 2001-2003 Prius or a Camry Hybrid, or
maybe a HCH.  (But I put <5000 miles/year on my Prius now, so maybe
I'd just get a rental when I need a car instead, should the need to
replace arise...)
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 18 Jun 2007 01:22 GMT
> > Imagine getting full power out of the system on demand because the
> > engine isn't running the AC compressor directly.
>
> On your Prius, probably.  Not on mine.  NHW11 Prius uses a belt-driven
> AC compressor.

Of course, the original poster was asking about buying a new car today,
so your car is irrelevant.
Marilyn & Bob - 18 Jun 2007 15:42 GMT
>> > Imagine getting full power out of the system on demand because the
>> > engine isn't running the AC compressor directly.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Of course, the original poster was asking about buying a new car today,
> so your car is irrelevant.

Reread the OP's post.  Where does it say the s/he is looking to buy a NEW
hybrid.  In fact, the OP mentions that they want a four door car.  Since the
Insight is no longer manufactured there would be no need to mention this if
only new cars were being considered.
Signature

Peace,
BobJ

News - 18 Jun 2007 18:21 GMT
>>>>Imagine getting full power out of the system on demand because the
>>>>engine isn't running the AC compressor directly.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Insight is no longer manufactured there would be no need to mention this if
> only new cars were being considered.

For the record, we prefer to buy new (and hold).

Thanks.
Bob & Holly Wilson - 04 Nov 2007 22:07 GMT
> > We are looking to acquire a 4 door hybrid in the fall, and are now entering
> > the research phase, prior to the dealership visit phase.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> It's so good, both my wife and I have decided that we'd spend our own
> money on one.

Did you ever get a personal Prius or are you still using the company
car?

> Honda's system isn't bad, but Toyota's is so good, it makes Honda's
> system look all the worse.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> The Prius is a large car, surprisingly so.  Yet it turns on a dime.  Try
> it.  I don't know how they violated the laws of physics, but they did.

Low center of gravity and a suspension tuned well tuned for the vehicle
works well. When I recently had to drive my wife's Echo, I almost tipped
over on a turn.

> I just wish the Prius came with a trunk instead of a hatchback--but
> that's just me and my particular situation.  For my own non-work
> purposes, a hatch would be fine.

The cover over the rear area isn't adequate? I've seen folks who all but
live out of that space on trips. The term "hotel Prius" comes to mind.

> The Prius is available with more high-tech goodies.  If you're a geek,
> you love that.

Recently, we're seeing the Prius prices on Ebay soften for the late
model ones. I have suspected for sometime that the Federal tax credit,
now expired, had inflated new Prius prices. Certainly, the overloaded
features don't do anything to make them more affordable.

What is interesting is comparing the Prius to Corrolla, which seems to
the vehicle of choise for mileage payback. Yet none of these comparisons
include a feature-for-feature comparision. So manual transmission,
low-scale Corrollas are used for price comparisons to the hatchback
Prius.

Well no doubt, this is one of the better postings showing some degree of
clue. Hopefully, you'll take this compliment is the spirit it is
offered. But I am curious if you ever got your own or are still stuck
with the company car?

Bob Wilson
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 04 Nov 2007 23:55 GMT
> Did you ever get a personal Prius or are you still using the company
> car?

I have no need to get another new car right now.
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 04 Nov 2007 23:59 GMT
> But I am curious if you ever got your own or are still stuck
> with the company car?

"Stuck with"?  We are a two car family (actually three; I still have my
Lexus, but it sits in the garage, unused) and have a great Honda van,
and my wife uses that from 8 to 5 M-F.  But outside of those hours, the
Prius is our main family car and we do everything with it.

The way my company car program works, I don't need to buy a personal
Prius.  It's incredibly cheap for me to use the company car for personal
use.

If the two of us are gone at the same time, we use common sense
regarding who takes the Prius.  The longer trip wins every time.  Nights
and weekends, the van gets used only for short trips to the grocery
store, etc.  And that's not because the other car is a Prius; it's
because the company program is incredibly strong and it's incredibly
cheap for me to drive it for personal use.  So cheap, there's no way
buying one on my own makes any sense.
Bob & Holly Wilson - 05 Nov 2007 00:28 GMT
> > But I am curious if you ever got your own or are still stuck
> > with the company car?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Prius.  It's incredibly cheap for me to use the company car for personal
> use.

Company cars are usually assigned to sales folks, or at least that had
been my experience in the past. Sounds like they have a clue. From Wiki:

". . . Several U.S. companies offer employees incentives. Bank of
America will reimburse $3000 on the purchase of new hybrid vehicles to
full- and part-time associates working more than 20 hours per week.[81]
Google,[82] software company Hyperion Solutions,[83] and organic food
and drink producer Clif Bar & Co[81] offer employees a $5000 credit
toward their purchase of a certain hybrid vehicles including the Prius.
Integrated Archive Systems, a Palo Alto IT company, offers a $10,000
subsidy toward the purchase of hybrid vehicles to full-time employees
employed more than one year.[81] Clothing companies Timberland and
Patagonia, law firm DLA Piper, non-profit American Jewish Committee,
software publisher Topics Entertainment, and research firm ABR, Inc. are
among companies offering eligible employees significant discounts on
certain hybrid vehicles including the Prius.[81] . . ."

In my case, business trips are re-embursed at a rate that only two trips
per week are enough to pay for my gas for the week.

> If the two of us are gone at the same time, we use common sense
> regarding who takes the Prius.  The longer trip wins every time.  Nights
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> cheap for me to drive it for personal use.  So cheap, there's no way
> buying one on my own makes any sense.

I understand that and applaud the corporate policy. Any idea of how many
Prius your company provides?

I've formed my own company this past month and nothing would make me
happier than to do enough business to buy an NHW20 Prius for corporate
use. Of course in my case, that would me after-market products.

Good luck!
Bob Wilson
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 05 Nov 2007 01:29 GMT
> > The way my company car program works, I don't need to buy a personal
> > Prius.  It's incredibly cheap for me to use the company car for personal
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> among companies offering eligible employees significant discounts on
> certain hybrid vehicles including the Prius.[81] . . ."

Actually, we have a large selection of cars and vans to choose
from--Toyota, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Volvo, Nissan.

I could have had a Malibu for the exact same price and deal as the
Prius.  Blech.  But then, it's not my car, so I don't really care one
way or the other.  But there's a difference between the Asian philosophy
of engineering a car and the American way.  The American way stinks, and
that shows every moment you're in one.

Sorry, GM.  Maybe you've changed things.  But I don't have enough time
in my life to go testing.

> In my case, business trips are re-embursed at a rate that only two trips
> per week are enough to pay for my gas for the week.

Yeah, I could have kept driving the personal car and gotten reimbursed.  
No big deal.

> I understand that and applaud the corporate policy. Any idea of how many
> Prius your company provides?

There are five or six that I can think of in my general area, just right
off the top of my head (but that's out of dozens of cars).  Of course,
none of them got the car and then three days later tore the dash apart
to install the Lockpick...
Bob & Holly Wilson - 05 Nov 2007 07:57 GMT
. . .

> Actually, we have a large selection of cars and vans to choose
> from--Toyota, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Volvo, Nissan.
>
> I could have had a Malibu for the exact same price and deal as the
> Prius.  . . .

> > I understand that and applaud the corporate policy. Any idea of how many
> > Prius your company provides?
>
> There are five or six that I can think of in my general area, just right
> off the top of my head (but that's out of dozens of cars).  . . .

The Department of Energy did an early fleet study of  hybrid electrics:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/light_duty/hev/hev_tes
ts.html

One of their earliest studies was in conjunction with:

"This vehicle was operated throughout the
State of Arizona by Bank One of Arizona's
courier pool. It was operated 24 hours a
day, six days a week, transferring documents
between branches and a central
processing center located in Phoenix on
city streets and urban freeways as well in
intrastate courier routes, with typical highspeed
round trips of 100 to 300 miles."

Is there a fleet manager who might have data about the different cars
that could be used to analyze total cost of ownership?

One of the interesting aspects of this study was the initial falloff in
monthly mileage in the first three months. Thereafter, the vehicle
mileage remains fairly constant. This has never been explained and still
has me puzzled.

One characteristic of fleet drivers, or so I've always assumed, is the
absence of motiivation to improve vehicle mileage performance. I suspect
fleet drivers are schedule driven, more than anything else, and to a
greater or lessor extent, isolated from vehicle operational costs. They
don't have a financial commitment to efficient operation compared to the
demands of schedule.

Bob Wilson
 
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