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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Trucks / May 20081983 Toyota, dead starter?
I drove my 1983 toyota pickup (SR5, 22R 4 cyl.) for about 15 hours from Utah to New Mexico without problems. The next day I got up, started it up, drove into town, turned it off, and when I came back out, it wouldn't start. It's not the typically click of bad starter contacts, just nothing at all. The starter is easy enough to pull off so I took it into Autozone and tested it. It cranked up great. I'm getting power to it (checked with a DMM) but if I try to put 12V onto the smaller terminal (the switch I'm assuming) I don't get anything. A while ago part of the lights on the console stopped working (I originally thought it was because I'd replaced some of the bulbs with LED replacements) and before I started the trip to NM the gas gauge started acting really sluggish, and won't go past 3/4 full even with a freshly filled tank. I'm thinking maybe the solenoid is stuck, or there's short in the wiring somewhere. Any help on where to start diagnosing this? Fowie >I drove my 1983 toyota pickup (SR5, 22R 4 cyl.) for about 15 hours >from Utah to New Mexico without problems. The next day I got up, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Fowie i had a short on the same motor setup. my short was in the fuel sensor in the gas tank. see if you can test those wires and if there's a big drain. it's a pain to get to the sensor, so try to tap in the wires. of course, you could try a rebuilt starter first and easiest. a good parts store will let you return it if it's not the cause. > I drove my 1983 toyota pickup (SR5, 22R 4 cyl.) for about 15 hours > from Utah to New Mexico without problems. The next day I got up, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Fowie If you aren't getting 12v to the small terminal on the starter then you need to look at fuses and the starter relay first. I'm not sure if Toyota was using the green starter relays back in 1983 but most of the newer ones used a green starter relay that sends the 12v to the solenoid in the starter. Once the solenoid pulls in it shorts the high current contacts to spin the starter motor. > If you aren't getting 12v to the small terminal on the starter then > you need to look at fuses and the starter relay first. I'm not sure > if Toyota was using the green starter relays back in 1983 but most of > the newer ones used a green starter relay that sends the 12v to the > solenoid in the starter. Once the solenoid pulls in it shorts the > high current contacts to spin the starter motor. Thanks for the tip. There aren't any fuses to the starter, at least not in the fuse box where everything else is. The only thing close is the engine fuse, but that goes to the distributor I believe. Where is the starter relay located? I seem to have misplaced my Haynes manual. (CRAP!) > > If you aren't getting 12v to the small terminal on the starter then > > you need to look at fuses and the starter relay first. I'm not sure [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the starter relay located? I seem to have misplaced my Haynes manual. > (CRAP!) Update: I connected a test lead to the starter switch lead on the starter and touched it to the positive terminal of the battery. It sparked, but I got absolutely nothing from the starter. I pulled the starter out and opened the half of the starter where the solenoid is (it's got three phillips, hex head bolts around it and looks like a pentagon). The solenoid didn't pop out, so I think it was stuck. I also noticed that coming from the switch terminal there were two copper wires that were soldered to the terminal. Were being the key word. One of them was still connected, the other had broken right at the solder joint. I re-soldered both wires to the lead, and put the solenoid back in and closed it up. I think the solenoid was stuck because when I opened the case there was no pressure on the back of the case, but when I closed it up I had to apply pressure to keep it closed because the spring was pushing back against the case housing. Put the starter back in, and it works like a champ! Hope this helps someone else out there. >> > If you aren't getting 12v to the small terminal on the starter then >> > you need to look at fuses and the starter relay first. I'm not sure [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >Put the starter back in, and it works like a champ! Hope this helps >someone else out there. There are TWO windings in a solenoid - the pull in and the hold. One goes from the switch connector to ground, the other goes from the switch connector to the motor terminal. This is the "pull in " winding. If the brushes are not seated or the wire is disconnected it will NOT pull in (unless the stars are aligned just right and the horseshoe you are sitting on is in a very uncomfortable position) ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** >>> > If you aren't getting 12v to the small terminal on the starter then >>> > you need to look at fuses and the starter relay first. I'm not sure [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> > There are TWO windings in a solenoid - the pull in and the hold. Better look again. The solenoid has only ONE winding. > One > goes from the switch connector to ground, Somewhat correct but misleading. It doesn't go straight to ground, that would cause a short, it goes to ground throught the solenoid windings, which operates the solenoid. the other goes from the > switch connector to the motor terminal. There is no wire from the switch connector to the motor terminal. When the solenoid is pulled in it closes the cicuit from the battery postive cable to the starter motor. This is the "pull in " > winding. If the brushes are not seated or the wire is disconnected it > will NOT pull in (unless the stars are aligned just right and the > horseshoe you are sitting on is in a very uncomfortable position) The solenoid operation does not depend on the starter motor brushes for proper operation. The solenoid operates independently from the starter motor. > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** >>>> > If you aren't getting 12v to the small terminal on the starter then >>>> > you need to look at fuses and the starter relay first. I'm not sure [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Better look again. The solenoid has only ONE winding. In a Toyota (NipponDenso) geared starter? Nope. I've had likely more than a hundred apart and worked on them over the years. GM too. Chrysler reduction starters too. Virtually any "pre-engage" type starter has a bifilliar winding in the solenoid. >> One >> goes from the switch connector to ground, > > Somewhat correct but misleading. It doesn't go straight to ground, that >would cause a short, it goes to ground throught the solenoid windings, which >operates the solenoid. READ!!!!. I said the WINDING goes directly from the switch terminal to ground, and that is CORRECT.The second winding goes from the switch terminal to the live side brush (or the switched contact of the solenoid contactor) > the other goes from the >> switch connector to the motor terminal. > > There is no wire from the switch connector to the motor terminal. When the >solenoid is pulled in it closes the cicuit from the battery postive cable to >the starter motor. You better study your automotive electrical theory. I've been an auto electrical specialist for many years, and taught automotive mechanics at both secondary school and trade school level. I was also a Toyota service manager for 10 years.I KNOW what is in those solenoids. > This is the "pull in " >> winding. If the brushes are not seated or the wire is disconnected it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The solenoid operation does not depend on the starter motor brushes for >proper operation. The solenoid operates independently from the starter motor. BS. If your brushes do not make contact on a Toyota gear reduction starter (and a Chryco gear reduction starter, and a Delco pre-engage starter) you have less than a 50-50 chance the solenoid will pull in at all. There is a GOOD reason for this, other than making sure you get positive engagement with low current draw. The good reason is the current through the pull-in coil makes the armature start to turn VERY slowly, and it is almost impossible for the gear teeth to hit head to head. The teeth slide nicely together and "pre-engage". Inertia starters do not have this issue, and most remote mount solenoids do not have bifilliar windings. However SOME do - and they are allways clearly marked BAT and MOT or BAT and ST. If you hook them up backwards they are sluggish to engage and "hang in" when the starter switch is released. I've had vehicles where the starter would not dis-engage due to the solenoid being cionnected backwards. >> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** Yeah, that little wire if broken can do it. It would be a good idea to change out the solenoid contacts if worn over 0.9mm. About ~$20 kit from the dealer around 120K miles. > Update: I connected a test lead to the starter switch lead on the > starter and touched it to the positive terminal of the battery. It [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Put the starter back in, and it works like a champ! Hope this helps > someone else out there. >I drove my 1983 toyota pickup (SR5, 22R 4 cyl.) for about 15 hours > from Utah to New Mexico without problems. The next day I got up, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Fowie When I had an '83, I experienced much the same symptoms. I took the solenoid apart, and cleaned it up, and lubed it with dry lubricant. It worked great after that. Later, the high current contacts wore down, and I made some out of the blades of a 70 amp buss fuse. Took about 2 hours of bending and filing, and they were working over 100K later when I sold the truck. The moveable contact doesn't wear out much because it rotates into a new spot each time it is engaged. As far as the gas gauge, I have had that problem with every Toyota I have owned, except the Tundra I have now. Mine all eventually went to full, but very sluggishly. Took about 20-30- minutes. Absolutely. There are two copper contacts that conduct battery current to the motor through the plunger solenoid. These wear out with time and should be replace around 100-120K miles depending how many start cycles. When you hear a loud click and, because of wear, no current flows these are it. See: http://www.team-integra.net/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=1... http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/maintenance/starter/ > When I had an '83, I experienced much the same symptoms. I took the solenoid > apart, and cleaned it up, and lubed it with dry lubricant. It worked great [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > with every Toyota I have owned, except the Tundra I have now. Mine all > eventually went to full, but very sluggishly. Took about 20-30- minutes.
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