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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / July 2006

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95 corolla sometimes it starts somtimes not ,it allways turns over

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gadgets - 29 Jun 2006 20:06 GMT
car has 188,000 on a 1.8 (7a-fe) well maintained ,oil changed every 2500 .
mom and dad went to v.a., road back home from virginia to s.c. on the way
home mom and dad stopped at gas station and did not pay att. to the gas they
were putting in the tank ,it had  half tank of  89 octane and filled it up
with 85%ethinol .drove home. next couple of days driving were put on the car
on same tank of gas when the car got to eighth of a tank mom stopped at mail
box car shut off. turned the key it started right up.drove to gas station 1
mile away got gas drove to sisters and as soon as she pulled in it shut off
left there went back home 2 miles away got in yard shut off. from then till
now this is what it is doing,somtimes it will start sometimes it wont whenit
does start it will idle fine if you give it a mild exell. it will die if you
give it a hard exel. it will die if you move it real slow it will gain rpm's
to a certain point ,that point is when a load is put on it. also, sometimes
when you try to start it it will pop 1 time through the intake with white
smoke. checked tpi senser was out so changed it still same prob. also the
engine light is NOT on. i have never seen or herd of this prob HELP!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!
Ray O - 29 Jun 2006 20:57 GMT
> car has 188,000 on a 1.8 (7a-fe) well maintained ,oil changed every 2500 .
> mom and dad went to v.a., road back home from virginia to s.c. on the way
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> HELP!!!!!!!!!!!
> !!!!!!!

In the future, your posts would be easier to read if you typed using
conventional formatting, like capital letters at the beginning of sentences,
and a double space at the end of each sentence.

The pop is an indication that the mixture is too rich.

It is possible that an injector is leaking or not closing all the way.
Other possibilities are the idle air control valve, mass air flow meter, and
oxygen sensor.   These need to be checked by a competent technician.  Check
for cracks or holes in the intake tube between the air filter and throttle
body.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Bruce L. Bergman - 30 Jun 2006 05:26 GMT
I'm cleaning it up and highlighting the essentials, in case you missed
it Ray:

>> Car has 188,000 on a 1.8 (7a-fe) well maintained ,oil changed every 2500.

 So far, so good.  If you take care of it, 188K and the car should
have some life left in it.

>> Mom and dad went to V.A., road back home from Virginia to S.C.  On the way
>> home mom and dad stopped at a gas station and did not pay attention to the gas
>> they were putting in the tank ,it had a half tank of 89 octane and filled it up
>> with 85% ethanol

 And that's the rub that I'll bet Ray missed, Toyota's normal
production cars aren't set up to run on E-85 fuel - 85% Ethanol 15%
Gasoline blend.  It's not the fuel itself that is the culprit, a
properly designed car will run on E-85 fine.

 It's the effects of that fuel on all the fuel system components.
Rubber fuel hoses, various synthetic gaskets and seals in the fuel
rails and the injectors, and also corrosive effects on some metallic
components like the injector pintles.

 In other words, "Strange sh.t Will Happen.  The fun part is, you
never know exactly what, and how bad."

>> Drove home. Next couple of days driving were put on the car on same
>> tank of gas, when the car got to eighth of a tank mom stopped at
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> you try to start it it will pop 1 time through the intake with white
>> smoke.

 Delayed reaction to the wrong fuel would be my first guess as to
where to start looking.  It will take time for the alcohol to attack
the parts, so having it keep running fine through that one tank of
fuel would be expected.

 You may have messed up the seals inside the fuel injectors, and they
are leaking and running too rich.  Or something is clogged up in the
fuel system, the fuel pump or pressure regulator has failed and
there's no pressure, and it's an over-lean.

 When you get the car running can you smell excess fuel at the
tailpipe?  And once it gets a chance to warm up and start working,
does the catalytic converter get really hot under the floorboards,
possibly to 'glowing red' heat?  That would be a sign of running way
too rich.

 Someone will have to start checking the fuel system at square one -
fuel pump output pressure, flow test through all the filters, whether
the injectors are actually squirting, messed up fuel pressure
regulator that sends all the fuel right back to the tank...

 Many things can be causing this, and you (or your mechanic) need to
diagnose it systematically - check and eliminate each potential
problem, and you'll hit the real problem as you go down the list.

 The checklist of potential problems causing a 'no-start' or a
'starts, no power and dies under load' will be found in the service
manual, as well as the methods used to check each one - do you have a
service manual?

>> Checked TPI senser was out so changed it and still same problem.  Also
>> the engine light is NOT on.  I have never seen or herd of this problem
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>It is possible that an injector is leaking or not closing all the way.

 My vote.

>Other possibilities are the idle air control valve, mass air flow meter, and
>oxygen sensor.   These need to be checked by a competent technician.  Check
>for cracks or holes in the intake tube between the air filter and throttle
>body.

 When you hear hoof beats, you look for horses.  These are all good
things to check and eliminate, but they are not fuel-wetted
components.  Unless it's serendipity that they broke at the same time,
or he broke them while working on the car (the air intake hose) they
aren't likely to be the smoking gun that caused the no-power
condition.

    --<< Bruce >>--

Signature

Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address:  Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Ray O - 30 Jun 2006 05:46 GMT
> I'm cleaning it up and highlighting the essentials, in case you missed
> it Ray:
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
>
>     --<< Bruce >>--

I concur with everything Bruce suggests but I'm not so sure that 1 tank of
E85 would ruin stuff that quickly, especially since it was used on a road
trip and so the alcohol didn't have a long time to dissolve stuff.  What I
am wondering is whether the alcohol dissolved varnish or buildup somewhere
that lodged in the injector pintles, which is why I suggested that an
injector might not be closing all the way.  A bottle of fuel injector
cleaner probably wouldn't hurt, but I think the OP needs to have a pro drive
and look at the car.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

gadgets - 30 Jun 2006 13:29 GMT
ok will go through the fuel system today.    fuel pump , inj. , regulater,
etc.  let you know what happens.                       Thanks for all your
help!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>> I'm cleaning it up and highlighting the essentials, in case you missed
>> it Ray:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>cleaner probably wouldn't hurt, but I think the OP needs to have a pro drive
>and look at the car.
Bruce L. Bergman - 30 Jun 2006 17:00 GMT
>>  Bruce wrote:

>>> I'm cleaning it up and highlighting the essentials, in case you missed
>>> it Ray:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>cleaner probably wouldn't hurt, but I think the OP needs to have a pro drive
>>and look at the car.

 Ethanol is a very powerful solvent.  And the car in question is high
mileage, with a lot of crud built up in the fuel tank and lines.  I
would be shocked if it did NOT clog the injectors.

 My bet is he'll have to clean the injectors two or three times, at
least once "mechanic style" with the direct-connect kit, and then run
several bottles of Techron (or equivalent fuel additive cleaner) and
several tanks of gas through the fuel tank to get it all cleaned out.

>ok will go through the fuel system today.    fuel pump , inj. , regulater,
>etc.  let you know what happens.  Thanks for all your help!!!!!

 You're welcome - and remember, you are diagnosing the problem first.
Do NOT just start throwing replacement parts at it till it works,
unless you get darned lucky that route can be hideously expensive.

 Fuel filters and other cheap maintenance items are OK to change on a
guess because they have to be done every so often anyway.  But don't
go buy a set of injectors or a new in-tank electric fuel pump on a
guess.  You can be out several grand real fast, and still have a dead
car.

 If you must spend money, get good tools.  My opening list would be a
fuel pressure test kit, flare wrenches to change the fuel filter, a
creeper, a decent floor jack and jackstands to get under the car to
the filters, etc. - put them away and they'll still be valuable the
next time you have car troubles.

 If it traces to crud in the injectors, you can buy the professional
injector cleaning kit at a good auto parts store like NAPA.  They have
a little storage toolbox with the regulator, hoses and connectors
needed for the fuel rail fittings on various car brands, instructions,
and two or three cans of cleaner.  Hook it all up and the car runs at
idle on 100% injector cleaner, flushes the dirt right out.

 You can pay a mechanic, and get it done once.  Pay the same amount
of money to buy the good cleaning tool kit, and you own it.  From then
on you only need to buy another can of cleaner and hook it up.

****** divider for emphasis ******

 One other very important thing - GO BUY A PRO-DUTY FIRE EXTINGUISHER
FOR THE CAR, AND A BIG ONE FOR YOUR GARAGE.  NOW, before you go back
to working on this car.  And I'm not kidding around.

****** divider for emphasis ******

 We are dealing with an iffy fuel system here - If the ethanol
attacked the fuel hoses or rubber seals in the fuel system, you could
end up with a fuel leak under 40 PSI plus pressure.  And fuel leaks in
the engine compartment can turn into an engine fire faster than you
can cut the ignition - you want to save the car if you can, if you
don't put it out fast it's scrapyard time...

 You need a good metal head refillable extinguisher, the plastic head
Kidde's that they sell at the hardware store for $12 are junk - if the
plastic siphon tube inside breaks from rough handling you can't tell,
until you go to use it on a fire and it does not work.  And that's NOT
the time to find out.

 My suggestion is the Amerex B417 2-1/2# for in the car, and a B402
or B500 5# for the garage.  They should run roughly $30 for the 2-1/2#
and $40 for the 5#.  http://www.amerexfire.com/Literature/abc.pdf

 Call your local Fire Department for a recommendation of the local FE
shops that sell and service - they won't send you to a crook.  They'll
gladly show you how to use it, you'll probably get an invite to their
next live-fire training session so you can practice with a real
extinguisher and real (controlled) fire.  (Pan with a quart of gas.)

  --<< Bruce >>--

Signature

Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address:  Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Ray O - 30 Jun 2006 17:04 GMT
> ok will go through the fuel system today.    fuel pump , inj. , regulater,
> etc.  let you know what happens.                       Thanks for all your
> help!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're welcome and good luck!
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

>>> I'm cleaning it up and highlighting the essentials, in case you missed
>>> it Ray:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>drive
>>and look at the car.
gadgets - 30 Jun 2006 21:54 GMT
Ok this is the deal, NOW the car wont even try to start.      checked inj,
ohmed 13.8-14.0, Did a run test on the inj. They are pulsing, with good
atomization(they are NOT squirting they are spraying... with no leakage.
Checked the pressure regulater and it is fine.     now you are probably going
to ask how i did a run test...       Here goes,removed fuel rail  attatted
inj. to rail, secured them with zip ties 1 to the left one to the right of
the inj.     hooked the lines back up to the rail       took some delicasy
but it worked .   (hard to get them not to leak at inj. and rail..............
.. let me add this i have been working on cars for a long wile though,
definitly NOT a pro so i can be creative for creating a testing unit   HEHE
but I am at the kibbles and bitts        So i come to you with more than just
general knowledge...... this may help you help me ,my wife always says i look
for the hardest things first .   So can you maybe think of somthing simple
along with the more indepth............. yes the car has good fire at the
plugs             you all are great  ....     thanks again

>> ok will go through the fuel system today.    fuel pump , inj. , regulater,
>> etc.  let you know what happens.                       Thanks for all your
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>>drive
>>>and look at the car.
Ray O - 30 Jun 2006 23:53 GMT
> Ok this is the deal, NOW the car wont even try to start.      checked inj,
> ohmed 13.8-14.0, Did a run test on the inj. They are pulsing, with good
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> along with the more indepth............. yes the car has good fire at the
> plugs             you all are great  ....     thanks again

What do yo umean by "won't even try to start?"  I assume that the engine is
cranking but will not catch.

I'd start by taking a look at the basics, air, fuel, and ignition source at
the proper time.

By any chance, does the engine turn over faster than normal when engaging
the starter?  When was the timing belt changed last?
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

>>> ok will go through the fuel system today.    fuel pump , inj. ,
>>> regulater,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>>>drive
>>>>and look at the car.
gadgets - 01 Jul 2006 01:41 GMT
ok checked timing , inj. ,spark plugs, fuel pressure regulater, fuel pressure,
tps,egr,the inj. are asperating with plenty of fuel.and is getting fire but
not like it should i dont think .  instead of a dark blue flame like i am use
to it is more a orange ,blue..         Now after going all day checking this
car out i had a brain storm,   i disconnected the fuel pump under the rear
seat and gave it a squirt of either   through the throttlebody and tried to
start it , Nothing, until  i let go of the key it sounded as though the
engine was spining backwards,like it was over heating .so i tried to crank it
again after it spun over about 5 times , it started and idled fine, but  if
you nailed on the gas it would boug down and try to shut off so i had to let
go of the gas and it would go back to a good idle. IF you increased the idle
slowly it would gain rpms up to about 4000 rpms then it would start to boug
down and try to shut off.
I  had autolite plugs in it for about a year ,when they put the E85% gasoline
in it it may have scrude up the plugs ,so my dad put in bosh platinums. I
have been told that it was a bad idea to do so.
as far as timing belt goes it was replaced 30,000 miles ago...................
... .
>> Ok this is the deal, NOW the car wont even try to start.      checked inj,
>> ohmed 13.8-14.0, Did a run test on the inj. They are pulsing, with good
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>>>>>drive
>>>>>and look at the car.
Ray O - 01 Jul 2006 07:42 GMT
> ok checked timing , inj. ,spark plugs, fuel pressure regulater, fuel
> pressure,
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> ago...................
> ... .

Next time, stick to OEM plugs.

Check for a crack in the intake tube between the filter and throttle body,
check the idle air control valve and MAF sensor.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

>>> Ok this is the deal, NOW the car wont even try to start.      checked
>>> inj,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>>>>>drive
>>>>>>and look at the car.
 
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