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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / July 2006Will it damage the engine if I use regular gas?
Dear all, If I have Lexus RX 300 and in the manual it says premium gas, but to save money I want to use regular gas for now (until gas price comes down, likely when hell freezes over.) Will this damage the engine if I should decide to do that? > If I have Lexus RX 300 and in the manual it says premium gas, but to > save money I want to use regular gas for now (until gas price comes > down, likely when hell freezes over.) > > Will this damage the engine if I should decide to do that? You apparently have your manual. Read it. Trust me. And keep reading AFTER where it says "use premium gas". >> If I have Lexus RX 300 and in the manual it says premium gas, but to >> save money I want to use regular gas for now (until gas price comes [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >And keep reading AFTER where it says "use premium gas". Thanks smart a.s, now try to learn how to read. That is exactly my question, and obviously novices like you don't know the answer. I'm sure you're one of those idiots that still changes the oil at every 3,000 miles. > >You apparently have your manual. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks smart a.s, now try to learn how to read. That is exactly my > question, and obviously novices like you don't know the answer. I know the answer, because I know what my owner's manual says. Mine goes on to say more. Yours does, too. > I'm sure you're one of those idiots that still changes the oil at > every 3,000 miles. Huh? >> >You apparently have your manual. >> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Huh? I change my oil at 3000 miles.What of it? The way I drive, if I don't I'm letting dirt build up in the engine. How do you think I made it to 223,000 miles? Charles of Schaumburg 93 Corolla 223,000 95 Previa 161,000 >>> >You apparently have your manual. >>> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >letting dirt build up in the engine. How do you think I made it to 223,000 >miles? I made my Toyota Corolla to 300,000 miles with 6,000 oil changes, and I drive as crazy as everybody. 3,000 oil changes is just a waste of money. Do you also spend $20,000 a year on "addictives?" >Charles of Schaumburg >93 Corolla 223,000 >95 Previa 161,000 > 3,000 oil changes is just a waste of money. On a 'normal' car i agree to some extent. Its never a waste - you WILL increase the life of the engine but by what % is a different matter. On a high BHP/CC turbocharged engine regular oil changes are VITAL as the high temperatures reached by high power-to-capacity engines degrades the oils faster - my oil cools my turbo bearing housing whose entire exhaust housing glows semi-transparent at motorway cruise speeds. J >> 3,000 oil changes is just a waste of money. > >On a 'normal' car i agree to some extent. Its never a waste - you WILL >increase the life of the engine but by what % is a different matter. This propaganda makes as much sense telling people with normal engines to put in "Premium gas to make your engine lasts longer." >On >a high BHP/CC turbocharged engine regular oil changes are VITAL as the >high temperatures reached by high power-to-capacity engines degrades >the oils faster How many people have that? > - my oil cools my turbo bearing housing whose entire >exhaust housing glows semi-transparent at motorway cruise speeds. > >J Engine has improved, the most you need is 5,000 miles per change. 3,000 per change is just their way of sucking more money for ignorant people thinking they are making their car "lasts longer." My 1990 Toyota Corolla is hitting 350,000 miles with 6,000 intervals My 2001 Toyota Corolla is hitting 180,000 miles with no engine troubles at 6,000 intervals. Currently I'm more careful with my Lexus RX 300, 5,000 intervals. My wife's 1996 Toyota Camry V6 is at 220,000 at 6,000 intervals with no problems. > This propaganda makes as much sense telling people with normal engines > to put in "Premium gas to make your engine lasts longer." Well if you believe so. I have several friends who work in the design of engines and their components for OEMs and they dont seem to agree with you, and considering that in the pub chatting they tell me some interesting things I would expect them to be telling the truth. Plus if you knew a little more about engines and why problems occur you might be qualified to make such sweeping statements, you clearly dont know a thing about detonation and engine control systems. Again, it will help your engine last longer, but maybe by a very small percentage. Premium gas has several additives that arent found in normal gas that help maintain efficiency by cleaning the engine better too - I see a 2mpg improvement (thats 5% on my car) when i use premium fuels and my car was originally set up for regular. 5% increase in economy pays for the fuel itself anyway. > How many people have that? Many. And increasing numbers. The general trend in the automotive industry is towards small, high power, high revving engines as they are more efficient and more environmentally friendly. Stick in the dark ages of engines if you like. > Engine has improved, the most you need is 5,000 miles per change. > 3,000 per change is just their way of sucking more money for ignorant > people thinking they are making their car "lasts longer." Think about it - its not the manufacturer/seller of the oil that recommends the oil change schedule - they have next to nothing in it for them - people who go to dealers for oil changes make up a very low % of the total oil sold. Modern engines have improved - yes - they are faster, tighter toleranced and work at higher temperatures and closer to their limits. For that reason they have tighter requirements on lubrication. 3000 is a guideline and on very few engines, most cars still have >6K changes. Its a guideline they know wont be adhered to by the vast majority of numpties that think they know better than the designers of the engine - they take the "I know best and my cars have always lasted fine on twice what the manual says" brigade like yourself and average the ideal with the idiotic, shave off a few K miles so that those who own a car and want to keep it running perfectly can do so and those who abuse cars can live in ignorance and still have a car that lasts a decent milage. As for quoting milages - annecdotal and pointless - any engine will last 200,000 miles lubed reasonably well providing long journeys and good environmental conditions. But bear in mind that the manufacturers have to take into account people like us in the UK where most of our journeys are start-stop and clogged up in cities and its rare for the same engine that lasts 200K with ease in the US to last to 150K without needing a full rebuild, even *WITH* perfect maintenance. A case in point is my current car - the celica GT-Four (alltrac to you lot). In the UK it is rare for the turbo to last >120K miles and the engine gets rattley and nasty after that too, even with dealer maintenance. Out US buddies running long journeys and good weather see over 200K from the engines and turbos with ease. You cant simplify things like you would like to, the manufacturer cant tell exactly how you are going to drive your car and what quality of oil you will use. They can hope you do it right and with the right oil but they cant bet their reputation of reliability on your habits, and you are proof that they have to design/specify for people who think they know better. -shave- >You cant simplify things like you would like to, the manufacturer cant >tell exactly how you are going to drive your car and what quality of >oil you will use. They can hope you do it right and with the right oil >but they cant bet their reputation of reliability on your habits, and >you are proof that they have to design/specify for people who think >they know better. Well said...right on the money...  Signature-Gord. (use gordon in email) Nine out of ten owners do not properly do the preventive maintenance needed to prolong the life of their vehicles. Particularly after the first three years of ownership. How often does one hear, 'I don't know why it failed I change the oil every 3,000 miles and never drive fast' ;) mike hunt > -shave- > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Well said...right on the money... >Nine out of ten owners do not properly do the preventive maintenance needed >to prolong the life of their vehicles. Particularly after the first three >years of ownership. How often does one hear, 'I don't know why it failed I >change the oil every 3,000 miles and never drive fast' ;) > >mike hunt Proof? Ironically many people are "religious" when it comes to gas and oil. Majority of people will feed their cars "premium" or "in-between" gas from time to time thinking this will "advance the life of engine." And certainly majority of people today stick with 3,000 miles intervals on oil changes because their mechanics pressure them to. Like I said, 3,000 miles interval oil changes is like swallowing 2 vitamins a day instead of recommended one a day. I guess it "helps", but the benefits is minimal if at all. >> -shave- >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Well said...right on the money... >> 3,000 oil changes is just a waste of money. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >J Regular changes yes, 3,000 miles no. > On 11 Jul 2006 11:31:57 -0700, "Coyoteboy" <coyoteboyuk@hotmail.com> > Regular changes yes, 3,000 miles no. Depends on the engine. As I say my engine in standard form overheats the oil as a matter of practice - oil temps run at around max as a matter of course. Only highly stressed engines require that kind of oil-change frequency but if it is labelled as 3K miles it IS a highly stressed engine, or designed to be thrashed. If you drive everywhere like a granny then sure extend it. My manual actually states "Hard driving, towing and track use change oil every 2750 miles, normal use change at 5000". J > > 3,000 oil changes is just a waste of money. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > J My manual recommends changing the oil at 7000 miles (not 3000 miles) based on the oil specsand the engine specs, which are based on real engine tests. The 3000 miles is what you get from the old manufacturers (of course). I also see them telling you to change your synthetic oil at the same intervals as regular oil, claiming that all of the additives break down at the same rate and that you don't get any added protection. That isn't true or why would they sell synthetics at twice the price. (Remember the Castrol ad where they ran the engine for 100 or 200 hours on their synthetic, then drained the oil out and continued to run the engine for a while with no problems?) I changed my synthetic oil at around 12,000 for the first 230,000 miles and I still have good compression. When I change the oil, the oil is still "thicker" and provides better lubricating than regular oil at 6,000 miles. If the oils is getting contaminated or breaking, you should change it frequently, otherwise follow the manual; change it at 3,000 miles during break in, then switch to the longer interval. > I change my oil at 3000 miles.What of it? The way I drive, if I don't I'm > letting dirt build up in the engine. How do you think I made it to 223,000 > miles? > > Charles of Schaumburg > 93 Corolla 223,000 I have a 92 Accord that runs like new at 240,000 and I change the oil around every 5-6k miles or so. The trick is to keep it topped off. And, don't skimp on parts. > 95 Previa 161,000 >> I change my oil at 3000 miles.What of it? The way I drive, if I don't >> I'm [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >> 95 Previa 161,000 Keep it topped off? How much was it burning between changes? > >> I change my oil at 3000 miles.What of it? The way I drive, if I don't > >> I'm [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Keep it topped off? How much was it burning between changes? was? you mean IS. It IS burning about 2 -- 3 quarts btw changes. About a quart a month or so. Cars with over 200k miles burn oil. Show me one that doesn't and I'll show you a car with a rebuilt or new engine in it. > Cars with over 200k miles burn oil. Show me one that doesn't and I'll > show you a car with a rebuilt or new engine in it. My dads BMW 535i has done nearly 180K miles and the level doesnt change between 12 month/12000mile changes. With the cam cover off you can still see a nice golden tone to everything too. J >> >> I change my oil at 3000 miles.What of it? The way I drive, if I don't >> >> I'm [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Cars with over 200k miles burn oil. Show me one that doesn't and I'll >show you a car with a rebuilt or new engine in it. My 1990 Toyota Corolla doesn't, and I'm sure it's the same old engine... :) (360,000 miles and counting...) >> >> I change my oil at 3000 miles.What of it? The way I drive, if I >> >> don't [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Cars with over 200k miles burn oil. Show me one that doesn't and I'll > show you a car with a rebuilt or new engine in it. Ok - meant IS, since you still have the car. Two - 3 quarts would be a little high for my comfort level even for a high mileage engine, but it's not to be unexpected. A little over 6 years ago I picked up a used VW Fox that started burning about a quart of oil a week. A week of driving was a little over 200 miles. This was with 20W50. Thick oil additives slowed it down a little but it was a lost cause. Ended up giving it away after I picked up my previous Honda. There are still some high mileage cars that burn little to no oil but it's rare. > >> >> I change my oil at 3000 miles.What of it? The way I drive, if I > >> >> don't [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > down a little but it was a lost cause. Ended up giving it away after I > picked up my previous Honda. Woo hoo 20w-50! I used that in my '84 Yugo!!! That car... jesus. I put a starter button on it, because the entire electrical system was shot and I was a 19 yr old who thought schematics were different ways to swipe cases of beer and cigarettes from the 7-11. We drove it to Ocean City, x the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel (Virginia Beach to Eastern Shore), and that took quite a measure of faith. We started it by pop-starting it with the button held in. You also had to cuss it and hold your mouth right. Hell of a strong body on that car. Come to think of it ... nah, it didn't really look like a Golf. > There are still some high mileage cars that burn little to no oil but it's > rare. I'm pretty satisfied with the performance. I just put two new transaxles on it, new exhaust, 60k 5spd transmission from japan, clutch parts (slave cylinder, etc), matching 60k warranty bf goodriches, hubcaps, mp3... I want to consult with my mechanic about an engine overhaul... I don't like feeling guilty when I go for the spiffy 2.2l performance. It still looks fully stock, nothing performance outside of what they added on the assembly line on the outside at least... never mind the fancy radio... Oh, and that paint, forget it! Its supposed to be white, I gave up on that about a year ago... be nice if I could find a $500 white paint job / dent wizard that didn't look like it was done in an open garage next to an alley... >> >> >> I change my oil at 3000 miles.What of it? The way I drive, if I >> >> >> don't [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > (Virginia Beach to Eastern Shore), and that took quite a measure of > faith. Whoa. a Yugo! That's one car I never got to ride in. Remember when it came out, people were picking them up because they were very affordable to buy new. Then the repairs kicked in.... You had faith to take it on longer trips! When young breaking down out of town is not a big deal and adds to the fun. Yeah, I'm in Maryland so OC is not too far away. Never been to VA Beach but hear it's a great place to go. > We started it by pop-starting it with the button held in. You also had > to cuss it and hold your mouth right. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > of what they added on the assembly line on the outside at least... > never mind the fancy radio... Sounds like my Prelude - the car was great. When something broke, I had it fixed instead of being "tied down" with a car payment. What you say sounds familiar - had the engine swapped (timing belt snapped a month before I was going to get it replaced), clutch slave cylinder, new OEM clutch put in while they did the engine, great Bridgestone Potenza RE950 tires, Alpine AM/FM cassette w/6-disc changer, Infinity up front and MB Quart in the rear. A bunch of other stuff along the way and other repairs it *could* have used. It was an '89 Si. Finally gave up when I replaced the 2 front axles and it failed the etest a week later and bought new. Now I have car payments but the PEACE OF MIND, working a/c and reliability are worth it! > Oh, and that paint, forget it! Its supposed to be white, I gave up on > that about a year ago... be nice if I could find a $500 white paint job > / dent wizard that didn't look like it was done in an open garage next > to an alley... Yup, mine was white too - but looked good for its age until rust started hitting the rear wheel wells about a year and a half before giving her up... > I'm sure you're one of those idiots that still changes the oil at > every 3,000 miles. Well, now, that gave me pause for thought. At $30 per, you could change it at, say, 6k miles and pay X over however long you have the car, or you could change it at 3k and pay 2x. Over 120k miles, then, you could pay $600 for oil changes or you could pay $1200. If you're turning cars over every 30k miles or so, who cares. But if you keep a car, the extra $30 you pay every 6k miles (for example) is very cheap insurance. A half a cent a mile extra? Especially compared to gas prices, that's inconsequential--especially if it means the difference between a well oiled engine and a sludge-filled engine (hello, Toyota...). > Dear all, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Will this damage the engine if I should decide to do that? Probably not - I know that the Tacoma trucks "recommend" premium fuel but you can run regular without damage. The knock sensors retard the ignition timing so it will run on the lower grade fuel. If your manual says the higher octane is "recommended" you're OK, if it says it's "required" then not. That said, retarded ignition timing combined with good driving habits results in a mileage penalty of perhaps 2 MPG. Instead of buying cheaper gas, you may end up saving more by continuing to fill with premium fuel while practicing all of the usual gas-saving driving tips. -- Mike Harris Austin, TX Group owner, http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Toy_Coma/ >> Dear all, >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Austin, TX > Group owner, http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Toy_Coma/ I did an 'average' of two cars I drove, my '85 Corolla and my '95 Tercel. With the better fuel economy I saw using Premium gas, it worked out like this: Over the 19 year life (on the road...I still have the car..) of my Corolla GT-S, I broke even-it cost as much to run Premium as it would have to run Regular. With the Tercel, I actually came out ahead. The car got such better economy running Premium it actually cost about $250 LESS running Premium than if I had run Regular! The computer will adjust to a lower hp level SO you will probably not save anything It will not distroy the engine. if you get stuck & only reg is available it will work > The computer will adjust to a lower hp level SO you will probably not save > anything It will not distroy the engine. if you get stuck & only reg is > available it will work I would recommend that if the weather is really hot, and you are driving a lot, try and use the highest octane you can afford (if your engine is designed to run with higher octane). Even using mid grade is a help in hot weather. Even putting half regular and half mid-grade in your tank would help. However, always use high quality brands, regardless of the claimed octane level. Unfortunately, on average, company owned gas stations are more reputable than individually owned stations (my apologies to those individuals who own gas stations). There is a huge incentive for individuals who own gas stations (even those who sell major brands) to fill their tanks with gas that is not the stuff that is advertised. This kind of fraud is not common, but it has happened. I have seen the same gas delivery trucks at EXXON, SHELL, Speedy, WAWA and others so a big company name on building doesnt' mean quality ensured gas out of their pumps. >> The computer will adjust to a lower hp level SO you will probably not >> save [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > that is not the stuff that is advertised. This kind of fraud is not > common, but it has happened. > I have seen the same gas delivery trucks at EXXON, SHELL, Speedy, WAWA and > others so a big company name on building doesnt' mean quality ensured gas > out of their pumps. That's because bulk delivery is outsourced. The truck is filled from different distributors, depending on the delivery company's customer. > The computer will adjust to a lower hp level SO you will probably not save > anything It will not distroy the engine. if you get stuck & only reg is > available it will work The ECU uses the knock sensor as a feedback sensor. It is assumed that knock will not happen as you are using decent fuel and it is there for protection in case the worst happens. This means that you have to get knock before the ECU retards the timing. Knock every once in a while does a tiny tiny amount of harm but you can live with it. Knock all the time, like you will get running crap gas, even tiny amounts, builds up over the months. Its like someone punching you in the face. Once every couple of years will just remind you to avoid those bars, but every night you'll end up with slurred speach and an ugly face. J >> The computer will adjust to a lower hp level SO you will probably not >> save [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > J HEY!!!! > > Its like someone punching you in the face. Once every couple of years > > will just remind you to avoid those bars, but every night you'll end up [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > HEY!!!! :-) > That said, retarded ignition timing combined with good driving habits > results in a mileage penalty of perhaps 2 MPG. Instead of buying cheaper > gas, you may end up saving more by continuing to fill with premium fuel > while practicing all of the usual gas-saving driving tips. > -- Ditto what Mike says. I tracked 20 tanks (10 of 87 octane and 10 of 92-93 octane) in my '05 V6 Tacoma. I stayed with one rating for all 10 tanks to allow the sensors to adjust, I didn't switch back and forth. I actually have MPG data and fuel cost data all the way back to day one (11 miles) in the "memo" field of Quicken. If you charge your gas, and fill every time, this is really simple to do just by writing the mileage on the receipt. I found that the cost per mile is now pretty much identical ($3.05 vs. $3.35), so I stayed with premium. When gas was $2.00 or 87 vs $2.30 for 93, regular was cheaper, but only by 2-3 cents a mile. You should count on the prices never coming down. > Dear all, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Will this damage the engine if I should decide to do that? > Dear all, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Will this damage the engine if I should decide to do that? If you drive a Lexus, you can afford premium. It is usually 20-30 cents more per gallon anyway. If you can't afford that, it is time for something cheaper on gas. John all cars sold in the U.S. must be able to run on Regular gas... I would recommend if your driving conditions are fast acceleration or climbing hills... use a higher octane.. > Dear all, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Will this damage the engine if I should decide to do that? > Dear all, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Will this damage the engine if I should decide to do that? If your manual says 91 octane is required, then yes, using regular could damage the engine. If your car has a knock sensor, your manual will probably say 91 octane is recommended, but 87 octane (regular) may be used as a minimum. BUT, if you have a knock sensor, it will retard the timing if you use regular gasoline resulting is less efficient operation and lower gas mileage (as well as less performance under load--acceleration, hill climbing, etc.). Consider this. 91 cctane (premium) normally costs 20 cents more than 87 (regular). At $2.00 a gallon, that is a 10% premium. If the use of regular reduces your mileage by more than 10% (say from 22 mpg to 20 mpg), you will be losing money by burning regular. If the price of fuel goes to $3.00 a gallon, and the 20 cent extra charge for premium holds (6.7%), it makes even less sense to use regular. Merritt > Dear all, > > If I have Lexus RX 300 and in the manual it says premium gas, but to > save money I want to use regular gas for now (until gas price comes > down, likely when hell freezes over.) You drive a Lexus and don't want to spring for the correct fuel? <G> Can you actually afford the car? >> Dear all, >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Can you actually afford the car? I see many smirk comments like this one in the replies. Let me tell you kids this, this is the difference between a rich man like me and poor middle-class like you. Rich folks become rich by watching their bottom lines all the time, finding ways to save money here and there. Middle-class tend to spend like a fool, and then bitch about the government "not taking care of them." It's basic economics, don't spend what you don't have, but save on what you can save. Always go around to find deals, $20 saving here and there can = to $10,000 by years end. Can I afford to pump premium gas? Sure, but if I can SAVE with regular gas and spend the money elsewhere, say mutual funds for investments then why not? Thanks for the good answers by some sane people here. >>> Dear all, >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Thanks for the good answers by some sane people here. Dan, "Smirk comments" are in the nature of Usenet. There's always going to be noise in the signal. It has exactly as much effect on your life and equanimity as puppies whining. Most folks work for their money. This is exactly wrong - your money should work for you. This philosophy works at any income level, and why I refrain from comment when a luxury car owner wants to save money on gas. Anyway, glad that you at least got some good answers. -- Mike Harris Austin, TX You are wasting your time if you believe you can educate people who believe it is cost effective to keep running a car until it is worn out. LOL mike hunt >>> Dear all, >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Thanks for the good answers by some sane people here. > Let me tell you kids this, this is the difference between a rich man > like me and poor middle-class like you. A. I'm not poor. B. I also read the "Millionare Next Door". C. I'm smart enough to read my manual and do what it says. For instance putting 100LL in my airplane instead of 87. Most of the gasoline stations probably put regular gas in all the pumps and charge more at the premium pump. The presence of ethanol is a major degredation of the gasoline anyway. Welcome to the world of Homo sapiens. . > Most of the gasoline stations probably put regular gas in all the pumps > and charge more at the premium pump. The presence of ethanol is a > major degredation of the gasoline anyway. Welcome to the world of Homo > sapiens. > . Running a car that pushes the detonation limit I can tell you that in the UK I've yet to meet a premium labelled pump with normal fuel in it. However after 2-3 weeks the premium gas has the RON rating of normal gas as it degrades - just a reminder to you all. > Most of the gasoline stations probably put regular gas in all the pumps > and charge more at the premium pump. My state consumer protection department has octane testing teams with special equipment that make surprise regular visits to the pumps. Along with octane, they also test for measurement accuracy. |
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