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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / July 2006Tiny pebble down into cylinder...what to do?
My son was helping me set engine to TDC, had a thin plastic stick down the #1 cylinder hole to gauge when TDC was reached. Its an '88 Camry 4 cyl....so there are tubes on each cylinder, with the spark plug at bottom of each tube. Valve cover is still on. It is a pebble about half the size of a standard round air gun BB. He had just got up off the driveway, his hand was sweaty, and the pebble stuck to his palm unknowingly. It made an audible CLINK when it came to rest right on the edge of the spark hole. I tried to get it out with a piece of sticky tape on the end of a stick, but I only succeeded in knocking it down into the cylinder. So it is somewhere completely unreachable, on top of the piston. So when I start the car up that pebble is going to bounce around inside the cylinder, and I guess eventually it would go out the exhaust valve if it opens that wide. Then there is a chance it might be trying to go through the exhaust valve just as the valve is nearing closed position, and then the valve might be damaged so that the compression of the cylinder is decreased. How can I get it out short of a major tear-down of the block? I don't have a vacuum pump, so I can't vacuum it out. I do have an air compressor and spray wand. Maybe if I connect a thin tube up to the compressor and force high-pressure air down the spark hole, it would come shooting up? And then the odds of being completely sure it is out are slim, unless I see it come out, as I sure don't have a borescope lying around. So I don't know....maybe there is a chance it will just break up...but maybe it will damage the cylinder. I don't want to take a chance. Ideas? The small hose idea might work if you hook it up to a vaccum cleaner with a clean bag and fish around until you get it. You should be able to see it in the vac. bag once you think you have it. Might also hear it travel down the hose. Just shove one end of small hose into vacc and seal with duct tape or something and you should have a super small vac. Richard > My son was helping me set engine to TDC, had a thin plastic stick > down the #1 cylinder hole to gauge when TDC was reached. Its an '88 [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > maybe it will damage the cylinder. I don't want to take a chance. > Ideas? Yea, good idea. Hadn't thought of using my regular vac. Its a HEPA vac, so if I completely empty it out, I should see/hear it. A piece of 3/8 in clear plastic tubing should do it. If that doesn't work, then I would have to try a solvent flush I guess. Geronimo >The small hose idea might work if you hook it up to a vaccum cleaner with a >clean bag and fish around until you get it. You should be able to see it [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> maybe it will damage the cylinder. I don't want to take a chance. >> Ideas? >Yea, good idea. Hadn't thought of using my regular vac. Its a HEPA >vac, so if I completely empty it out, I should see/hear it. A piece of >3/8 in clear plastic tubing should do it. If that doesn't work, then I >would have to try a solvent flush I guess. Geronimo Put a nylon stocking over the hose at a joint. You'll know you got it when it lands in the stocking. > My son was helping me set engine to TDC, had a thin plastic stick >down the #1 cylinder hole to gauge when TDC was reached. Its an '88 [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >maybe it will damage the cylinder. I don't want to take a chance. >Ideas? I have a small shop vac I keep in the garage for the cars. I bought a set of mini tools for it for interior detailing. One is a small plastic wand. If you have something like that, put a piece of vac hose over it with the other end down in the cylinder, you might be able to suck it up. FWIW YMMV > My son was helping me set engine to TDC, had a thin plastic stick > down the #1 cylinder hole to gauge when TDC was reached. Its an '88 [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > maybe it will damage the cylinder. I don't want to take a chance. > Ideas? If that pebble is still in the cylinder, it will make a huge noise like a rod knock when you start the engine. Get one of those computer cleaning attachments for your vacuum cleaner and see if you can suck it out. If you can actually see the pebble through the spark plug hole, try some putty on the end of a straw.  SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > If you can actually see the pebble through the > spark plug hole, try some putty on the end of a straw. ...or chewing gum! I used that once to pick-up something, but I don't remember what. As for the vacuum cleaner attachment, they have various types of plastic tubing at the Ace Hardware stores. On the one hand, you want it flexible enough to move around, but on the other hand, not so soft that it will collapse. I'm thinking maybe some silicone tubing. Or maybe one of those bendable straws? I wonder if jacking the car up on one side would make it roll to one side. Probably not unless it was very high or the pebble was very round... > > If you can actually see the pebble through the > > spark plug hole, try some putty on the end of a straw. > > ...or chewing gum! Whatever you do make sure the gum/putty is well stuck to the tool or you'll be screwed when it falls off and STICKS to the piston crown lol. WEll, did you get the damn thing or not. lol I still think vaccumn idea is best, nothing to fall off, stick to etc etc. and also, even if the pebble is too big to pass through the hose, the vaccumn should stick it to the end of the hose long enough to pull it out. rq > My son was helping me set engine to TDC, had a thin plastic stick > down the #1 cylinder hole to gauge when TDC was reached. Its an '88 [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > maybe it will damage the cylinder. I don't want to take a chance. > Ideas? Probably the neatest solution is to flip car upside-down and shake vigorously ;-) Will get back with you..hopefully with good news. geronimo >WEll, did you get the damn thing or not. lol I still think vaccumn idea >is best, nothing to fall off, stick to etc etc. and also, even if the pebble [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> maybe it will damage the cylinder. I don't want to take a chance. >> Ideas? > My son was helping me set engine to TDC, had a thin plastic stick > down the #1 cylinder hole to gauge when TDC was reached. Its an '88 [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > maybe it will damage the cylinder. I don't want to take a chance. > Ideas? Maybe turning the engine over with a wrench to bring that cylinder part way up on the compression stroke so it cant go anywhere but back out the spark plug hole would be a good idea. Then a piece of vacuum hose and the air compressor might blast it out. Or shop-vac. orrr hmmm. If worse came to worse a oz or so of motor oil the shop-vac and hand turning that cylinder the rest the way to TDC seems like it would flush every thing back out the plug hole. If it helps any we have had hail balls go down the dune buggy exhaust (big hole points straight up) because we ran for cover more than once and water lock the engine. Pulling the plugs and using the starter to blast everything out the plug hole has never caused any problems. GL Dan hehe: Turn the car upside down and shake it till it falls out. 8) Well, I got a piece of clear vynyl tubing w/ abt 3/16 or 1/4 in. ID, jammed it into the end of the shop vac nozzle, and sealed it with some RTV cement. Made sure it had good suction on it. Jammed it down onto the top of the piston and tried to suck it out. NO luck with this. I doubt that it was bending once it hit the center of the piston (too stiff), and the vacuum seems rather weak , so it wouldn't have sucked up something that is lodged toward the cylinder wall. The piston was at TDC when foreign object went down, and still is at TDC. I could not see it with a flashlight after it fell in, looking down the spark plug hole, so it obviously has bounced and has settled toward the cylinder wall where it is out of view. It could be a little hard brown seed, but I am thinking becasue of the "clink" noise that it was a tiny piece of gravel. Pouring oil in is an idea....but what is needed is something with a specific gravity higher than stone, so that it would, hopefully, float up and out the spark hole. Rocks will sink in oil I think, so what could I use? Mercury would float the pebble...but sure is not possible/practical. Short of that, all I could try is shooting some liquid under pressure through a narrow tube down into the cylinder...and then it might shoot out the hole. The difficulty of this is compounded by the fact that the Camry 4 cyl has those tubes about 6 in. long over each spark plug hole. I think the whole top end of the engine has to come off to eliminate the tubes, to be able to work right down on the top of the spark hole. What if I tried turning over the engine a few times? Possibly too much risk of damage just doing that? I just need to find a surgeon and talk him into lending me some laparoscopic surgery instruments ;-) BUMMER!!!! Geronimo >> My son was helping me set engine to TDC, had a thin plastic stick >> down the #1 cylinder hole to gauge when TDC was reached. Its an '88 [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >hehe: Turn the car upside down and shake it till it falls out. 8) How big is that pebble, and is it lead or plastic? That may be soft enough to not do much harm, and may find its way out when you start the engine. But then again you never know. Is this a interference engine? I mean would it really damage the engine if it got trapped for a moment in the exhaust valve? And would it damage the catalyst? Once a piece of sparkplug gasket fell into my old Fords cylinder, and that did not find the way out but made a lot of noise with the engine running. I gave up and pulled the top and there were tracks but no real damage. What about blowing with an air compressor in stead of sucking? That should give more power. Will the space around the hose in the sparkplug hole be enough for the pebble to find its way out? You will need a hose or tube that is bendable so it will reach out to the edge of the piston, Are you sure that the piston is in top of the compression stroke, and not the exhaust stroke ? In the last case all valves in that cylinder are partly open! Good luck. Asbjørn . > Well, I got a piece of clear vynyl tubing w/ abt 3/16 or 1/4 in. ID, > jammed it into the end of the shop vac nozzle, and sealed it with some [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] >> >>hehe: Turn the car upside down and shake it till it falls out. 8) > How big is that pebble, and is it lead or plastic? > That may be soft enough to not do much harm, and may find its way out when > you start the engine. But then again you never know. Is this a interference > engine? I mean would it really damage the engine if it got trapped for a > moment in the exhaust valve? And would it damage the catalyst? Fairly sure from his last post that its stone. With the piston at TDC you wont be able to get to the sides of the piston. If you lower the piston you can curve the hose to the walls of the cyl which might help. > Well, I got a piece of clear vynyl tubing w/ abt 3/16 or 1/4 in. ID, > jammed it into the end of the shop vac nozzle, and sealed it with some [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > BUMMER!!!! Geronimo Call around your local auto parts stores and see if any of them rent borescopes. Then you will know if something is actually in there or not. If no place rents them, your local Toyota dealer should have one. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) The sparkplug tube can be removed. Use the valve cover nuts to double or triple nut the tube to provide gripping surface. Or buy some nuts of the same thread diameter. The tubes have seal on the treads and were torqued to 29ft-lbs. It will take a little more then this to break it loose. Once removed, lower the piston to get some working room. You might be able to see into the cylinder with a bright work light and find the rock. You can then try the vacuum or something using double back tape, etc. There are also remote fingered pickup devices, check hardware and autoparts stores. You could use a probe to manipulate the rock into the center of the piston for easier removal. Signaturetoyomoho > The difficulty of this is compounded by the fact that the Camry 4 > cyl has those tubes about 6 in. long over each spark plug hole. I > think the whole top end of the engine has to come off to eliminate the > tubes ========================= If you think it would make it any easier, those spark plug tubes are simply threaded into the head. If you're careful not to bend them, you can clamp on a pair of vice grip pliers and simply twist it out. Then reinstall using FIPG material on the threads and torque to 29 ft. lbs. using the 30mm valve cover nut. Perhaps in the future it would be better if you let your son watch rather than participate. Not sure how to remove a pebble though. You may just have to buy a shop manual, gaskets and head bolts and R&R the head. You need to be extremely careful in removing the head. There are cautions about loosening the bolts in the correct sequence beginning in the center to avoid cracking the camshaft bearing supports if you try lifting out the camshaft with uneven valve tension on the lobes. An alternative might be to purchase or rent or borrow a bore scope to view the inside of the cylinder while probing with a stiff, somewhat bent wire with a spot of grease on the end. Another option might be to remove the spark plug tube then use a small mirror on an extensible metal holder with a bright light. The idea being to visually locate the pebble first, then remove it. get some tubing that is more flexible and hook it up to the vacuum with duct tape. I would use duct tape, this will give you good vacuum. This should suck the piece out for sure. Might want to lower the piston so there is more space to bend the tube towards the wall. Forget about the oil, it won't come out. >Well, I got a piece of clear vynyl tubing w/ abt 3/16 or 1/4 in. ID, >jammed it into the end of the shop vac nozzle, and sealed it with some [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] >> >>hehe: Turn the car upside down and shake it till it falls out. 8) Thanks all....Will remove the spark tube and lower piston some. I didn't know they were removeable. Then will have some chance of getting it out. Geronimo >get some tubing that is more flexible and hook it up to the vacuum >with duct tape. I would use duct tape, this will give you good vacuum. [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] >>> >>>hehe: Turn the car upside down and shake it till it falls out. 8) Before removing the spark tube, lower the piston first and try the vaccum thing again, I still think that would work, especially if you lower the piston to bottom centre to give you some more room. ra > Thanks all....Will remove the spark tube and lower piston some. I > didn't know they were removeable. Then will have some chance of [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] >>>> >>>>hehe: Turn the car upside down and shake it till it falls out. 8) To get a more powerful vacuum, you might be able to just connect a suitable sized long piece of vacuum hose to another running engine. Should be good for at least 20" of mercury at idle. Make sure there is a restriction somewhere between the stone and the running engine to prevent the stone from being sucked into it.<g> Lee Richardson Mech-Tech > Thanks all....Will remove the spark tube and lower piston some. I > didn't know they were removeable. Then will have some chance of [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] >>>> >>>>hehe: Turn the car upside down and shake it till it falls out. 8) |
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