Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / January 2007
Coefficient of Drag
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Bill Tuthill - 20 Jan 2007 20:15 GMT Recently I've been wondering why truck manufacturers, including Toyota, don't do a better job making pickup trucks aerodynamic. Nowadays fuel economy at speeds > 55 mph is determined mostly by air resistance, not vehicle weight or engine size.
This article says my Prius has a .29 coefficient of drag (cD), while the Honda Insight has a .25 cD. Would Prius cD improve by installing rear-wheel fenders? They're ugly on the Insight but what else could explain the huge difference between .25 and .29 cD?
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/45188/article.html
I remember .29 is what our 1994 Volvo 850 wagon had, but looking up this information now on the web, answers vary from .32 to .33 cD. I'm fairly certain the wagon had better cD than the sedan, so maybe the wagon was .32 and the sedan was .33.
The teardrop is the most aerodynamic shape, so wagons have an advantage in that they start out closer to the best shape, although glass in the rear windows is heavier than a trunk lid. Teardrop also might be why pickup truck owners report improved fuel economy with a camper shell.
The Tundrasolutions.com website (owned by Toyota?) reports the Tundra has a cD ranging from .37 - .38 depending on model.
The 2007 Chevy Silverado has a cD of .43, reportedly "best in class" according to Wards Auto, so something is amiss here.
Mike Hunter - 20 Jan 2007 20:59 GMT Actually they are doing a better job the higher box sides, like on the F150 an the Silverado, are part of the reason. Trucks are designed to be trucks, pretty hard to get a bunch of passengers and cargo into something shaped like the Pruis that looks like a door stop.
Yeas ago GM and others tried designing streamlined trucks and even locomotives and railroad cars. The problem for trucks was the streaming and extra weight reduced load capacity that offset the economy gained
mike
> Recently I've been wondering why truck manufacturers, including Toyota, > don't do a better job making pickup trucks aerodynamic. Nowadays [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > The 2007 Chevy Silverado has a cD of .43, reportedly "best in class" > according to Wards Auto, so something is amiss here. Ray O - 20 Jan 2007 23:06 GMT > Recently I've been wondering why truck manufacturers, including Toyota, > don't do a better job making pickup trucks aerodynamic. Nowadays [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > rear windows is heavier than a trunk lid. Teardrop also might be why > pickup truck owners report improved fuel economy with a camper shell. I've read that the most aerodynamic shape looks more like a banana , with the ends of the banana pointing downwards. A truncated back end will create a low pressure area immediately behind the vehicle and increase drag.
The other area that people often forget about is the undercarriage. A shield under the engine compartment will help reduce drag.
> The Tundrasolutions.com website (owned by Toyota?) reports the Tundra > has a cD ranging from .37 - .38 depending on model. > > The 2007 Chevy Silverado has a cD of .43, reportedly "best in class" > according to Wards Auto, so something is amiss here. Since the 2007 Trunda is not for sale yet, the Silverado probably is "best in class" for cD.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Bill Tuthill - 21 Jan 2007 18:05 GMT > I've read that the most aerodynamic shape looks more like a banana, with > the ends of the banana pointing downwards. A truncated back end will create > a low pressure area immediately behind the vehicle and increase drag. Maybe this has to do with whether aerodynamicity refers to a falling raindrop or a vehicle moving along the ground?
The teardrop is the reverse of my expectations: the blunt end is in front, with the tapered end at the back.
> The other area that people often forget about is the undercarriage. A > shield under the engine compartment will help reduce drag. Aha, another use for skid plate! ;-)
> Since the 2007 Trunda is not for sale yet, the Silverado probably is > "best in class" for cD. That explains it, thanks.
A friend got 23 MPG from his 1999(?) Silverado small V8 on the highway, with camper shell and nothing on the roof. The EPA for that vehicle was 21 MPG highway. Pretty good for a pickup truck, eh? His mileage went down when he replaced the crappy factory tires. (They were crappy off-road anyway, but obviously had low rolling resistance.)
Ray O - 21 Jan 2007 19:01 GMT >> I've read that the most aerodynamic shape looks more like a banana, with >> the ends of the banana pointing downwards. A truncated back end will [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The teardrop is the reverse of my expectations: the blunt end is in front, > with the tapered end at the back. There are many things that contribute to drag and make the propulsion system work harder. Anything that contributes to turbulence will increase drag. The spoilers and wings on an Indy car are smaller for high speed races than for road races, where the additional downforce to aid cornering is more important than reducing drag.
Having the pointy end at the back of the car reduces the turbulence and drag behind the car. A blunt rear end creates a low pressure area, which sucks the car backwards, but a vehicle following in the low pressure area doesn't have to work as hard to move through the low pressure area, the principle behind drafting in races.
>> The other area that people often forget about is the undercarriage. A >> shield under the engine compartment will help reduce drag. > > Aha, another use for skid plate! ;-) could be!
>> Since the 2007 Trunda is not for sale yet, the Silverado probably is >> "best in class" for cD. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > went down when he replaced the crappy factory tires. (They were crappy > off-road anyway, but obviously had low rolling resistance.) The tailgate on a pickup can act as a large wind brake. Shells and tonneau covers keep air away from the tailgate and reduce drag, as does lowering or removing the tailgate or replacing it with a net or mesh.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Tomes - 21 Jan 2007 21:44 GMT > Having the pointy end at the back of the car reduces the turbulence and > drag behind the car. A blunt rear end creates a low pressure area, > which sucks the car backwards, but a vehicle following in the low > pressure area doesn't have to work as hard to move through the low > pressure area, the principle behind drafting in races. This gets me to thinking about drafting behind trucks on the highway to save fuel. Just how close does one need to be to make this effective (notwithstanding safety issues of being that close). How about for behind a pickup or a 'regular' car? Tomes
Ray O - 21 Jan 2007 23:58 GMT >> Having the pointy end at the back of the car reduces the turbulence and >> drag behind the car. A blunt rear end creates a low pressure area, which [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > a pickup or a 'regular' car? > Tomes Notwithstanding safety issues, depending on speed and the shape of the leading vehicle, you probably need to be within 1 to 3 feet.
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Andrew Stephenson - 21 Jan 2007 23:13 GMT > [...] A blunt rear end creates a low pressure area, which sucks > the car backwards, [...] OTOH, a while back I posted this [trimmed]...
> Subject: Re: $30,000 for a PRIUS? > Message-ID: <1150129866snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > [...] I'd be interested to hear whether the WW2 ship story is true. My source was an engineering-oriented schoolmaster, in my teens (ie, early 60s).
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Ray O - 22 Jan 2007 04:38 GMT >> [...] A blunt rear end creates a low pressure area, which sucks >> the car backwards, [...] [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > source was an engineering-oriented schoolmaster, in my teens (ie, > early 60s). I think the chopped off rear end does not contribute to streamlining because of the low pressure areas created by the squared end. Cars have chopped off rear ends because a streamlined one would either make the car too long or the passenger compartment too low.
GM's Sunraycer solar powered car http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthemove/collection/object_362.html is a good example of a low-drag design.
On the damaged ship, the story I recall hearing is that the bow was damaged, patched, and towed stern-first to reduce the strain on the patches, and that towing it backwards worked well.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Andrew Stephenson - 22 Jan 2007 12:01 GMT > On the damaged ship, the story I recall hearing is that the bow > was damaged, patched, and towed stern-first to reduce the > strain on the patches, and that towing it backwards worked > well. Backwards. Aha. Rather different. (And, ever since, though we don't know it, "performance" ships have been _built_ backwards.) Puzzlingly, the context of the version I heard was it apparently revealed a new way of shaping ship sterns. Oh well, I shall see what explanations come my way in future.
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Mike Hunter - 21 Jan 2007 20:49 GMT Both the 2007 Tundra and Silverado were compared by MT for the truck of the year award, The Tundra lost out in that comparison. ;)
mike
>> Recently I've been wondering why truck manufacturers, including Toyota, >> don't do a better job making pickup trucks aerodynamic. Nowadays [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Since the 2007 Trunda is not for sale yet, the Silverado probably is "best > in class" for cD. Ray O - 21 Jan 2007 23:57 GMT > Both the 2007 Tundra and Silverado were compared by MT for the truck of > the year award, The Tundra lost out in that comparison. ;) > > mike From what I have seen and read of the 2007 Tundra, it is a much better truck than the previous generation Tundra and getting closer to the F series Ford and Silverado in utility but have not passed them yet. I predict that a few more people will purchase it as a work truck than the previous Tundra but it will still appeal primarily to urban cowboys.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
larry moe 'n curly - 22 Jan 2007 00:40 GMT > I've read that the most aerodynamic shape looks more like a banana , with > the ends of the banana pointing downwards. Is that why the Oscar Meyer wienermobile, with the ends of the hot dog pointing upward, has never broken any speed records at the Bonneville Salt Flats?
Ray O - 22 Jan 2007 04:24 GMT >> I've read that the most aerodynamic shape looks more like a banana , with >> the ends of the banana pointing downwards. > > Is that why the Oscar Meyer wienermobile, with the ends of the hot dog > pointing upward, has never broken any speed records at the Bonneville > Salt Flats? Yup, they should have flipped the dog over!
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username@mailserver.mail - 20 Jan 2007 23:42 GMT >Recently I've been wondering why truck manufacturers, including Toyota, >don't do a better job making pickup trucks aerodynamic. Nowadays [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >The 2007 Chevy Silverado has a cD of .43, reportedly "best in class" >according to Wards Auto, so something is amiss here. Bill, I agree that truck manufacturers could be doing things to improve the aerodynamics of some trucks, but most of those things would nat make the truck "look" more massive so they get put on the back burner.
Two comments on your input above:
1) Granted a tear drop is the most aerodynamic shape, but it is blunt end forward, not pointy end, and the tear drop works so well because the fluid is constantly being swept toward the back to be replaced by the next "layer" of fluid. It is a lot like the action of team bicycle racers. The lead racer peals off to rest in the back while the rest of the pack forges on.
2) I have always wondered why automotive manufacturers advertize CD (Coeficient of Drag) rather than D (Drag). In order to compute D for a vehicle, you multiply CD * Frontal area. It is Drag that your engine has to push through the wind, not CD. CD is the measure of resistance per unit area.
That is one of the reasons the exact same car with narrow wide tires will get better mileage than one with wide tires. The wide tires add to the frontal area.
Take two cars with the same CD that weigh the same. Drive them at the same speed over the same course. the one with the smaller frontal area will get better gas mileage.
Bill Tuthill - 21 Jan 2007 18:18 GMT > 2) I have always wondered why automotive manufacturers advertize CD > (Coeficient of Drag) rather than D (Drag). In order to compute D for a > vehicle, you multiply CD * Frontal area. It is Drag that your engine > has to push through the wind, not CD. CD is the measure of resistance > per unit area. Holy smokes! This is a huge revelation to me. Thanks.
> That is one of the reasons the exact same car with narrow wide tires > will get better mileage than one with wide tires. The wide tires add > to the frontal area. Take two cars with the same CD that weigh the same. > Drive them at the same speed over the same course. The one with the > smaller frontal area will get better gas mileage. Pickup trucks should have an advantage over SUVs because they are generally lower profile.
The reason I'm thinking about this is that a(nother) friend has a relatively new Silverado and reports that fuel economy is worse now than the one he bought 10 years ago, especially with a full load.
Just looking at the windshield wipers and underside, it looks like the manufacturers could make 10-20% improvements in fuel economy with only minor engineering changes.
Ray O - 21 Jan 2007 19:13 GMT >> 2) I have always wondered why automotive manufacturers advertize CD >> (Coeficient of Drag) rather than D (Drag). In order to compute D for a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Pickup trucks should have an advantage over SUVs because they are > generally lower profile. Actually, some pickups have the same or a higher profile than comparable SUV's. The tailgage on pickups are a pretty big source of drag. The biggest advantage pickups have over an SUV bases on the same chassis is weight. Without the interior trim, carpets, seats, sheet metal, AC and heating capacity, etc., the pickup will weigh less.
> The reason I'm thinking about this is that a(nother) friend has a > relatively new Silverado and reports that fuel economy is worse now [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the manufacturers could make 10-20% improvements in fuel economy > with only minor engineering changes. There are many reasons your friend's new Silverado gets worse mileage. The new one is probably larger and weighs more and has more amenities that add weight. It may have a larger engine or be heavier-duty than the old one.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Andrew Stephenson - 20 Jan 2007 23:54 GMT > This article says my Prius has a .29 coefficient of drag (cD), > [...] Then the article disagrees with commonly available authoritative data sheets, that (no doubt while lying through their collective teeth) claim 0.26 -- not a big error but whattheheck. <g>
> Would Prius cD improve by installing rear-wheel fenders? If so, I suspect Toyota would have installed them. Overall fuel efficiency is a selling point on that model. T would be keen to improve the Cd wherever possible.
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Bill Tuthill - 21 Jan 2007 18:15 GMT >> [Edumunds.com] says Prius has a .29 coefficient of drag (cD). > > Then the article disagrees with commonly available authoritative > data sheets, that (no doubt while lying through their collective > teeth) claim 0.26 -- not a big error but whattheheck. <g> Aha! So Toyota managed to nearly equal the Insight without specifying rear-wheel fenders, which make tire changes more difficult.
The Honda Insight is also very noisy inside at highway speeds. I'd rather pay more for gasoline than lose my hearing.
Ray O - 21 Jan 2007 19:09 GMT >>> [Edumunds.com] says Prius has a .29 coefficient of drag (cD). >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The Honda Insight is also very noisy inside at highway speeds. > I'd rather pay more for gasoline than lose my hearing. There are lots of tricks to reduce drag and improve fuel mileage besides fender skirts. Reducing interior sound insulation saves weight. I expect to see exterior rearview mirrors go away, replaced by cameras that doesn't stick out into the airstream.
The Prius has some subtle design tricks that maintain decent interior room without major contributions to drag. Look at the roofline from behind, and notice that the centerline of the roof is lower than the left and right side.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Bill Tuthill - 23 Jan 2007 03:57 GMT > I expect to see exterior rearview mirrors go away, replaced by cameras > that don't stick out into the airstream. Good idea!
> The Prius has some subtle design tricks that maintain decent interior room > without major contributions to drag. Look at the roofline from behind, > and notice that the centerline of the roof is lower than the left and > right side. Is that entirely to increase headroom for driver and passenger, and outside positions in the rear seat, or does it have aerodynamic purpose?
Coyoteboy <coyoteboyspuduk@hotmail.com> wrote:
> How, exactly, does a pickup with a camper shell look anything like a > teardrop? Well, more like a teardrop than a pickup without camper shell, which has a dead area behind the cab, a wind baffle at the far back, and another dead area behind the tailgate. Anecdotal evidence says driving with the gate down increase fuel economy about 10%.
> c) the drag co-eff of a car is determined by a lot more than just the > overall body shape, as you mention the wheel arch areas create vast losses > and the underbody is by far the worst and most messy area aerodynamically. Couldn't 4WD and high-clearance vehicles have a retractable front shield that the driver could remotely extend down below the grille at high speeds? Obviously this stuff needs to be computer-modelled, but if the underside is such a huge aerodynamic problem, it seems that cost-effective solutions could be provided.
Cathy F. - 23 Jan 2007 04:06 GMT >> I expect to see exterior rearview mirrors go away, replaced by cameras >> that don't stick out into the airstream. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > outside > positions in the rear seat, or does it have aerodynamic purpose? Aerodynamic.
Cathy
> Coyoteboy <coyoteboyspuduk@hotmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > is such a huge aerodynamic problem, it seems that cost-effective solutions > could be provided. Wickeddoll® - 23 Jan 2007 04:15 GMT "Cathy F." <...
> "Bill Tuthill" ... >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Cathy OK did I miss something? Looks like that's what he said?
Natalie, cornfuzzled.
Cathy F. - 23 Jan 2007 04:37 GMT > "Cathy F." <... >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> > OK did I miss something? Looks like that's what he said? AFAICT, one said it, & the other (latter) asked.
Cathy
> Natalie, cornfuzzled. Tomes - 23 Jan 2007 04:38 GMT > "Cathy F." <... >> "Bill Tuthill" ... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Natalie, cornfuzzled. No, Cathy answered Bill's question: whether it was for headroom or for aerodynamic purposes. It is for aerodynamic purposes or at least not for headroom. I just went out to look at mine and noticed 2 things. First, the lowest points of the roofline are exactly over one's head whist one sits in there. Second, on the inside, the interior roof goes in a uniform arc across the top - does not bulge up (or bulge at all) for added headroom where heads go. Tomes
Bill Tuthill - 23 Jan 2007 05:22 GMT >>>> The Prius has subtle design tricks that maintain decent interior room >>>> without major contributions to drag. Look at the roofline from behind, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > OK did I miss something? Looks like that's what he said? > Natalie, cornfuzzled. Note the words "maintain decent interior room" without increasing drag. I can't see how those Prius side humps would help, except to maintain forward momentum in a crosswind.
Ray O - 23 Jan 2007 06:10 GMT "Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> The Prius has subtle design tricks that maintain decent interior room >>>> without major contributions to drag. Look at the roofline from behind, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > OK did I miss something? Looks like that's what he said? > Natalie, cornfuzzled. Note the words "maintain decent interior room" without increasing drag. I can't see how those Prius side humps would help, except to maintain forward momentum in a crosswind.
****** Tomes blew my headroom theory out the window, at least the aerodynamic part should still be valid :-). The humps will not maintain forward momentum in a crosswind.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Tomes - 24 Jan 2007 02:42 GMT > "Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> The Prius has subtle design tricks that maintain decent interior [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Ray O Sorry Ray.... [grin]
Ray O - 24 Jan 2007 05:46 GMT >> Note the words "maintain decent interior room" without increasing drag. >> I can't see how those Prius side humps would help, except to maintain [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Sorry Ray.... [grin] Apology accepted ;-)
I really try not to make too many car mistakes, but they sometimes slip through. Join TeGGeR, Bruce, qslsm, MDTech, and Philip's "Caught Ray's Mistake" club.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Tomes - 24 Jan 2007 19:39 GMT > I really try not to make too many car mistakes, but they sometimes slip > through. Join TeGGeR, Bruce, qslsm, MDTech, and Philip's "Caught Ray's > Mistake" club. Whatever happened to those guys?
Ray O - 24 Jan 2007 19:48 GMT >> I really try not to make too many car mistakes, but they sometimes slip >> through. Join TeGGeR, Bruce, qslsm, MDTech, and Philip's "Caught Ray's >> Mistake" club. > > Whatever happened to those guys? Bruce and TeGGeR occasionally chime in here. qslm joined the U.S. Air Force {thank you qslm for stepping up to the plate!!!}but still shows up here occasionally. MDTech, Philip, Bruce, and TeGGeR hang out at a Toyota yahoo group that they moderate.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Andrew Stephenson - 23 Jan 2007 11:41 GMT > Note the words "maintain decent interior room" without increasing drag. > I can't see how those Prius side humps would help, except to maintain > forward momentum in a crosswind. Stiffening the body as whole? Bracing for door frames? Provide conduits for cabling and such? A place to attach a roof rack if you must? It's likely to be a mixture of reasons: common in the Prius design.
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Mark - 23 Jan 2007 14:04 GMT Maybe the humps are there to make the Prius even uglier than it already is (speaking of things common in the Prius design).
> > Note the words "maintain decent interior room" without increasing drag. > > I can't see how those Prius side humps would help, except to maintain [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you must? It's likely to be a mixture of reasons: common in the > Prius design. Andrew Stephenson - 23 Jan 2007 15:16 GMT > > > Note the words "maintain decent interior room" without increasing drag. > > > I can't see how those Prius side humps would help, except to maintain [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Maybe the humps are there to make the Prius even uglier than it > already is (speaking of things common in the Prius design). I thought it was only we aesthete Prius owners who cared about such details. So nice to know others are also getting it. :-)
 Signature Andrew Stephenson
Bill Tuthill - 24 Jan 2007 01:13 GMT > Stiffening the body as whole? Bracing for door frames? Provide > conduits for cabling and such? A place to attach a roof rack if > you must? It's likely to be a mixture of reasons: common in the > Prius design. As I sat driving the Prius yesterday, it occurred to me, maybe steel reinforcement for rollover protection.
Ray O - 23 Jan 2007 04:29 GMT >> I expect to see exterior rearview mirrors go away, replaced by cameras >> that don't stick out into the airstream. > > Good idea! That idea was on some concept cars at the auto show last year, they will proably start to appear in luxury production cars soon.
>> The Prius has some subtle design tricks that maintain decent interior >> room [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > outside > positions in the rear seat, or does it have aerodynamic purpose? My guess is that the depression in the centerline is a way to reduce drag while maintaining headroom for the occupants.
> Coyoteboy <coyoteboyspuduk@hotmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > is such a huge aerodynamic problem, it seems that cost-effective solutions > could be provided. Front spoilers and air dams are generally designed to prevent air from building up under the undercarriage and creating lift, which is bad for traction and cornering.
A simpler solution is to design the undercarriage to reduce drag so the air flows smoothly under the car.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Andrew Stephenson - 23 Jan 2007 11:38 GMT > A simpler solution is to design the undercarriage to reduce > drag so the air flows smoothly under the car. Makes sense. At the same time, one probably gains a splash guard (which my Volvo 440s had and benefited from, on meeting puddles).
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C. E. White - 24 Jan 2007 14:44 GMT > Well, more like a teardrop than a pickup without camper shell, which > has > a dead area behind the cab, a wind baffle at the far back, and > another > dead area behind the tailgate. Anecdotal evidence says driving with > the gate down increase fuel economy about 10%. Any credible test I have seen shows that driving with the tailgate down increases fuel consumption relative to driving with the tailgate closed. The "Mythbusters" beat this one to death. In their experiments (not perfect by any means), tailgate up beat tailgate down, but tailgate net (OE tailgate removed) beat both. I am not sure why the net would be better than either of the other options, but that was their results. Lots of other tests have shown tailgate up is better than tailgate down. It is possible no tailgate at all might be the best. At least that way you are removing some weight. For years the first thing my Father did when he got a new pick-up for the farm was to remove the tailgate and store it in the barn. Always looked funny when he traded trucks - beat up truck with a near perfect tailgate.
Ed
Mark - 24 Jan 2007 14:55 GMT Good post Ed, here's some more evidence -
http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1997/October/05.html
On Jan 24, 9:44 am, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> wrote:
> > Well, more like a teardrop than a pickup without camper shell, which > > has [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Ed Bill Tuthill - 24 Jan 2007 20:22 GMT > Good post Ed, here's some more evidence [tailgate down is worse] - > > http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1997/October/05.html Interesting. Moreover, stuff doesn't fall out as much with it closed.
Anybody know whether a camper shell is better than with-tailgate closed? I would assume that the smooth-roof camper shells would be superior to those with a hump.
Danny G. - 24 Jan 2007 23:10 GMT >> Good post Ed, here's some more evidence [tailgate down is worse] - >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I would assume that the smooth-roof camper shells would be superior > to those with a hump. I drove a 1967 El Camino about 300,000 miles that had a removable shell & carpeted insert. They would improve my highway mileage 2+mpg and the weight made it handle much better.
Dan
oh ya, it was a 283ci V8
C. E. White - 25 Jan 2007 14:20 GMT >> Good post Ed, here's some more evidence [tailgate down is worse] - >> >> http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1997/October/05.html > > Interesting. Moreover, stuff doesn't fall out as much with it > closed. You would think so, but despite removing the tailgate from most of his pick-ups, my Father never had anything fall out the rear. But he was a careful driver. In almost 70 years of driving he never had a ticket and he only had one collision while he was driving (he hit a deer).
My Father always had some sort of farm dog. Most loved to ride in the rear of the truck. It always worried me that they might jump out while truck was moving. When I asked him if the dogs ever did that, he said, they usually only tried it once [and they learned their lesson - I don't think one was actually injured].
One more thing, when you ride in the back of a pick-up truck you notice that things in the bed tend to blow towards the cab, not out the back. Even with the tailgate in place and closed, things still tend to blow up against the front wall of the bed. This supports the idea that there is a rotating "bubble of air" formed in the bed.
Ed
Coyoteboy - 22 Jan 2007 10:18 GMT > The teardrop is the most aerodynamic shape, so wagons have an advantage > in that they start out closer to the best shape, although glass in the > rear windows is heavier than a trunk lid. Teardrop also might be why > pickup truck owners report improved fuel economy with a camper shell. How, exactly, does a pickup with a camper shell look anything like a teardrop? The teardrop shape has to be fat end first and long thin tail after to be vaguely aerodynamic (so without the shell would be better if were going teardrop-analogous). But also a) We were always taught a teardrop shape isn't the most aerodynamic shape (urban myth), the rear end of the teardrop is ideal, the front is not. A standard kiddies fish shape is far better as a teardrop has too much of a bulbous front. The teardrop is a trade-off of water weight, surface tension and air resistance all of which are very important at the scale of a drop but not in the same orders when on the scale of a car. b)The camper shell helps the situation because it removes the giant step-down at the rear of the cab which causes turbulence and back-flowing of the air which creates low pressure behind the cab and attempts to slow the cab down. As well as creating messy flow after it. c) the drag co-eff of a car is determined by a lot more than just the overall body shape, as you mention the wheel arch areas create vast losses and the underbody is by far the worst and most messy area aerodynamically. It could be that certain models have a fuel tank in a different place which aids the flow below the back axle instead of through it all, for example.
Andrew Stephenson - 22 Jan 2007 12:06 GMT > [...] The teardrop is a trade-off of water weight, surface > tension and air resistance all of which are very important at > the scale of a drop but not in the same orders when on the > scale of a car. > [...] On top of that, (according to someone in the meteorology NG) real raindrops are not shaped like picture-raindrops. Pressure on the leading surface flattens it while any tail collapses and the drop becomes a ragged disc.
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Coyoteboy - 22 Jan 2007 13:16 GMT >> [...] The teardrop is a trade-off of water weight, surface >> tension and air resistance all of which are very important at [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > leading surface flattens it while any tail collapses and the drop > becomes a ragged disc. Yup, thats correct good point, initially the drop forms normal drop shape but then rapidly turns into a ragged disc as you mention - presumably as the apparent wind speed increases the different forces contribute differently to shape.
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