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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / January 2007

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Charlene Blake's B/S Petition

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Scott in Florida - 22 Jan 2007 04:28 GMT
Just so new members of the ng can view the B/S Charlene Blake is up
to....

------------------------------------------------------------

To:  Toyota Motor Corporation
We, the undersigned petitioners, including former and current Toyota
owners, do hereby give notice to Toyota Motor Corporation, that we are
dissatisfied with the current customer service initiatives for owner
complaints of engine oil sludge and associated secondary problems.
This includes the former "SPA" or "Special Policy Adjustment" (Feb.
2002) as well as the current "CSP" or "Customer Support Program"
(April 2002) for "engine oil gelation." These initiatives do not
restore the original warranty rights of the affected consumers who
continue to be blamed for the problem by this company. In addition,
these initiatives do nothing to help those who had to trade in their
vehicles due to an inability to pay for exorbitant repairs within the
warranty period. While model year vehicles prior to 1997 have had the
same sludge problem, these owners are not helped by the current
program.

Pointing the finger at the owners is unconscionable given that untold
numbers of owners properly maintained their vehicles according to your
recommended maintenance schedule. We, the "Toyota Owners Unite for
Resolution" consumer group are not willing to accept blame for this
very serious engine problem any longer! We would like a formal
retraction of blame immediately. A public statement by Toyota Motor
Corporation is appropriate. We would also like a recall of the
affected engines. If these engines cannot be fixed permanently, we
would like this company to repurchase the affected vehicles once the
problem is formally acknowledged. The owners must be compensated for
the loss of resale value of their vehicles due to this condition. In
addition, all incidental and collateral expenses must be covered.
Nothing less would be fair to the affected owners!

Engine oil sludge development is unacceptable, especially in these
late model vehicles. These engines are not the same after repair. Some
owners with engine replacement have experienced a recurrent sludge
condition. Lack of owner maintenance is not the cause of either the
slow or sudden demise of these engines. Toyota owner engine analyses
reveal adverse changes in the engine's oil condition even with less
than 3,000 miles on the engine's oil. We, the owners, believe there is
a mechanical problem which is contributing to premature wear of these
engines.

Owners are very concerned about the safety of these vehicles. Some
engines are seizing at highway speeds. There are owner reports of
engine compartment fires after the engine throws a rod through the
engine block. Engine failure is unpredictable. Some owners have lost
all traces of engine oil suddenly. Some owners have noted excessive
fuel in the engine's oil and/or glycol-contaminated engine oil. Owners
have lost faith in their vehicles based on these occurrences.

Owners are also very concerned about the emissions control in these
vehicles. Some owners' vehicles are not passing state emissions
testing. Other owners note large volumes of smoke production on cold
startup, while idling, and with acceleration. Oil analyses of some
owners' engine oil reveal low viscosity and high nitration and
oxidation within the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval.
There are also high levels of silicon noted on engine oil analysis.
Owners report oxygen sensor replacements. Others note replacement of
catalytic converters, PCV valves, EGR valves, and other emissions
control components. Some owners have had fuel injection problems prior
to engine oil sludge development.

Here is what the networking owners have discovered to date:

1) Toyota has NOT notified all the affected owners about the "Customer
Support Program" based on a random sample survey of "Toyota Owners
Unite for Resolution" members and associates.

2) Toyota is not honoring the current "Customer Support Program" for
all owners who present with engine oil sludge at Toyota dealerships.
Some dealerships are not providing any information about the program
until asked directly. Even then, owners report vague information.

3) Toyota is charging some owners for sludge inspections or labor when
repairs are made for engine oil sludge. It is denying "Customer
Support Program" coverage for repairs for other owners despite
legitimate qualification for the program.

4) Some owners who purchased "Certified Used Toyotas" from dealerships
have discovered engine oil sludge within one month of ownership. Some
of these owners have been told that they do not qualify for repair
coverage under the
"Customer Support Program" because the owners cannot produce the oil
change receipts.

5) Before the introduction of the SPA or CSP, Toyota asked untold
numbers of owners to pay over $5,000 for new engines. Since the
introduction of the programs, engine replacements are not routinely
done when Toyota pays for the repairs. Repeat sludge problems have
been reported by owners.

6) The NHTSA and the EPA are not formally investigating the affected
vehicles based in part on Toyota's promises to remedy the "engine oil
gelation" situation via the CSP.

7) Toyota technicians/employees have refuted many of the complaint
claims made by Toyota owners on the Internet over a two year+ period.

8) A computer virus originated from a Milwaukee Toyota dealership and
spread throughout an owner list comprised of several hundred
dissatisfied Toyota owners. The most vocal Toyota owners have
experienced a myriad of computer problems since speaking out about
this problem.

9) Toyota executives and/or spokespersons have continued to publicly
claim that there are only a "few vocal owners" in this matter. These
executives state that they are "not aware of engine sludge in cases
where owners have properly maintained their vehicles." These same
representatives say that there are very few cases of engine oil sludge
in the affected engines. They base their claim on another claim that
only 3,200 owners have formally written to the company to notify it
about their problem.

We, the undersigned are shocked and appalled by the actions of Toyota
Motor Corporation. We expected more from our Toyota vehicles given the
daily advertisements describing these vehicles as the "platinum
standard" in quality and reliability. We want what we paid for...a
safe, reliable vehicle that holds its value over time. We don't think
this is asking too much! We want Toyota to do the right thing!

Sincerely,

Signature

Scott in Florida

fish - 22 Jan 2007 04:35 GMT
Scott in Florida,

I may be a new member, however - Consumer Reports has established for many
years that Toyota is a reliable brand you can count on.

I have done endless research, so someone who just happens to pop up (like
those annoying pop-up ads we block with Norton) managed to figure out how to
create her own stupid pop-ups that won't be blocked - newsgroups!

However, you *can* block this annoying pop-up - in every newsreader there
are *rules* where you can block annoying spammers - A.K.A. "trolls".

Scott, end this thread here and now please.

Please don't feed the trolls.
Wickeddoll® - 22 Jan 2007 04:48 GMT
"fish" ...
> Scott in Florida,
>
> I may be a new member, however - Consumer Reports has established for many
> years that Toyota is a reliable brand you can count on.

Hear, hear!

> I have done endless research, so someone who just happens to pop up (like
> those annoying pop-up ads we block with Norton) managed to figure out how
> to create her own stupid pop-ups that won't be blocked - newsgroups!

LOL good analogy.  There are several of those here, but a good "pop-up
blocker" is your killfile.

> However, you *can* block this annoying pop-up - in every newsreader there
> are *rules* where you can block annoying spammers - A.K.A. "trolls".

New, but knowledgeable.

> Scott, end this thread here and now please.
>
> Please don't feed the trolls.

I find it interesting that Charlene shows up at this time.  I suspect she
was either tipped off that the sludge thread had been revived, she searches
every day for any thread on the internet that contains the words
"sludge+Toyota" - or, she has been masquerading as someone else, and was
just waiting for the subject to come up again.

Possibly all of the above.

As I've said before, I'm sure sludge happens (for whatever reason), but I
don't believe for a second it's as widespread as she'd have you think.

Natalie
Scott in Florida - 22 Jan 2007 04:52 GMT
>As I've said before, I'm sure sludge happens (for whatever reason), but I
>don't believe for a second it's as widespread as she'd have you think.
>
>Natalie

Sludge does occur.

It occurs in cars that have not had their oil changed.

Pretty simple really....

Signature

Scott in Florida

Hachiroku ハチロク - 22 Jan 2007 06:11 GMT
>>As I've said before, I'm sure sludge happens (for whatever reason), but I
>>don't believe for a second it's as widespread as she'd have you think.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Pretty simple really....

Or using the cheapest oil possible.
johngdole@hotmail.com - 22 Jan 2007 06:48 GMT
Wait, 49 cents per quart is not the cheapest? ;)

> Or using the cheapest oil possible.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 22 Jan 2007 16:11 GMT
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 22:48:38 -0800, johngdole wrote:

> Wait, 49 cents per quart is not the cheapest? ;)

I have used oil I'll sell for 25 cents!

>> Or using the cheapest oil possible.
Scott in Florida - 22 Jan 2007 16:38 GMT
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 16:11:53 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@AE86.gts>
wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 22:48:38 -0800, johngdole wrote:
>
>> Wait, 49 cents per quart is not the cheapest? ;)
>
>I have used oil I'll sell for 25 cents!

Sell it to Charlene....that is what she and her crowd uses when they
get around to changing their oil....

>> Hachiroku ???? wrote:
>>> Or using the cheapest oil possible.

Signature

Scott in Florida

johngdole@hotmail.com - 22 Jan 2007 06:40 GMT
Consumer Reports just got a big black eye with that child seat review.
They ran cars around 70+MPH to simulate 35-38MPH impacts and now
withdrew the article.

Don't believe everything you read in CR. I'd flush CR down the toilet.
Maybe people can still trust JD Powers surveys I hope.

> Scott in Florida,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Please don't feed the trolls.
Wickeddoll® - 23 Jan 2007 01:21 GMT
> Consumer Reports just got a big black eye with that child seat review.
> They ran cars around 70+MPH to simulate 35-38MPH impacts and now
> withdrew the article.
>
> Don't believe everything you read in CR. I'd flush CR down the toilet.
> Maybe people can still trust JD Powers surveys I hope.

I trust CR to a point, but I trust my experience more.

Natalie

>> Scott in Florida,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>
>> Please don't feed the trolls.
Joe Schmuckatelli - 22 Jan 2007 17:43 GMT
>Scott, end this thread here and now please.
>
>Please don't feed the trolls.

Are you kidding?  Scott *IS* a troll.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 22 Jan 2007 21:38 GMT
>>Scott, end this thread here and now please.
>>
>>Please don't feed the trolls.
>
> Are you kidding?  Scott *IS* a troll.

But he's OUR troll! Makes a difference!  ;)
johngdole@hotmail.com - 22 Jan 2007 06:42 GMT
Toyota's settling of the Jeff Meckstroth class action next month may
just answer Blake's question.

> Just so new members of the ng can view the B/S Charlene Blake is up
> to....
doc_shock - 22 Jan 2007 13:40 GMT
> Toyota's settling of the Jeff Meckstroth class action next month may
> just answer Blake's question.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/01/toyota_sludge_settlement.html
cblake@erols.com - 31 Jan 2007 02:37 GMT
On Jan 21, 11:28 pm, Scott in Florida <askifyouw...@mindspring.net>
wrote:
> Just so new members of the ng can view the B/S Charlene Blake is up
> to....
[quoted text clipped - 124 lines]
>
> Scott in Florida

And what is your point, Scott?  There are thousands of Toyota owners
who are not happy about Toyota's denial of warranty.  These are so-
called valued customers who have signed the petition which has over
1800 signatures!  Do you consider the plight of all these vehicle
owners "B/S?"  If so, your attitude is reminiscent of Toyota Motor
Company's attitude toward them when their engines prematurely died due
to thick engine oil sludge build up!

It seems that you should read the message again to understand what is
really happening.  Then, perhaps you can direct the "B/S" comment to
Toyota?  The Toyota owners would like to know why Toyota has treated
them so callously for a decade+!  Toyota engine oil sludge spans this
long and then some.  The public promise made by Toyota in its very own
"Customer Support Program" has proven, according to many Toyota
owners, to be empty.  Behind the scenes Toyota dealerships continue to
deny the CSP coverage and to blame the vehicle owners for the engine
sludge that has prematurely choked their low mileage engines.

The Truth About Toyota Engine Oil Sludge

Toyota engine oil sludge affects more than the few models and model
years covered in Toyota's "Customer Support Program for Engine Oil
Gelation." Toyota indicates that 1997-2002 Sienna, Camry, Avalon,
Solara, Highlander, Celica, Lexus RX300, and Lexus ES300 are the ones
that are sludge-prone. At the same time, it says that these vehicle
owners are to blame for the sludge condition. Toyota doesn't include
the earlier models or the later models, though. It also doesn't
include the Corolla, RAV4, and 4Runner despite the fact that some of
these owners are reporting sludge buildup and engine demise.

The class action lawsuit covers all the models and model years
included in the CSP, contrary to the poster's information above. I
suppose that Toyota will use any loopholes it can to limit the relief
for its valued customers.

Many Toyota owners are reporting that Toyota has required far more
engine oil change receipts than what it publicly has stated it would.
According to owner accounts, owners continue to be treated poorly in
Toyota's alleged effort to limit the number of vehicle owners who
qualify under the CSP. In many cases engines are being cleaned when
they need to be replaced.

Unfortunately, the class action lawsuit doesn't help those with models
not covered under the CSP. It doesn't help those who long ago traded
their vehicles when sludge clogged their engines. It doesn't help
those Toyota owners whose engines mysteriously threw rods through the
engine block. It doesn't do anything for the Toyota owners whose
engines spontaneously erupted in fire on the road for no apparent
reason. No, there are many Toyota owners left out.

Is Toyota really "listening" to online discussions/reports by its
vehicle owners? If so, why isn't the petition being addressed? Why
aren't these owners getting a fair resolution in their sludge or
engine failure cases? We know that Toyota is tracking the owner
postings.

Interestingly enough, someone has been trying desperately to sabotage
the Toyota owner petition. Who would care to go to this length to
prevent Toyota owner organization? Who would want to end this
petition? Hmmmm....

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
 
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