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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / March 2007Parasitic current on a 2004 Sienna
I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not used for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console light control switch was set to off, making sure a door not being completely closed would not turn on any lights. In talking to my dealer, he said the parasitic current (current drain on battery with everything turned off), should be between 25 and 60ma. I checked mine, and found it was 220ma. I then checked my daughters 2004 Sienna and found the same thing. It seems unlikely a 220ma parasitic drain on the battery could discharge it in 4 days. The battery is rated at 575CCA and an RC of 130. I think it is the battery itself. It is three years old. Has anyone measured the parasitic current in their Sienna? If so, I would be interested in what they got for a reading. When I did the test, I connected an ammeter in series with the positive battery cable and the positive battery post, with everything turned off and all doors closed in the van. If you try this, and do not understand what you are doing, you could damage a current meter. Do not open any doors or turn anything on while doing this test. Charles Ranheim. >I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not used >for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console light [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >understand what you are doing, you could damage a current meter. Do not >open any doors or turn anything on while doing this test. Charles Ranheim. Is there a light that goes on under the hood when it's opened? No, there is no light under the hood. I even went out in the dark garage at night to see if there was a small light on anywhere such as vanity lights behind mirrors, lights in glove boxes, or under the hood, back hatch, lower doors, etc. Remember, it is not a failure in my van, because my daughter's van has the same parasitic current drain. When I first connect the ammeter, the current starts at about 350ma, then steps down to 220 after about 10 to 15 seconds. I suspect this is the various computers initializing after a power on. If I turn on one light over the driver's side, the current will go up by about 340ma. I have a shop manual for the van, but it does not address this. It would only become an issue if you had a battery going down over time, and needed to know if it was a bad battery or the parasitic current drain. I replaced the battery, so it may be fixed. I am only looking further because the dealer said my 220ma current is too high. Charles Ranheim. >I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not used >for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console light [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >understand what you are doing, you could damage a current meter. Do not >open any doors or turn anything on while doing this test. Charles Ranheim. By any chance, do you have any aftermarket accessories like an aftermarket audio system, remote starter, security system, etc.? If the van has automatic headlights, see if the parasitic draw goes down with the headlight switch in the off position.  SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not used >>for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console light [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > If the van has automatic headlights, see if the parasitic draw goes down > with the headlight switch in the off position. Ray O I do not have any aftermarket accessories, and my headlight switch is in the off position. I cannot be anything unique to my van because, as I stated in the previous post, my daughter's 2004 Sienna has the same readings. I wish I could get the actual spec on this from Toyota, but that would be impossible. Thanks for your interest. Charles Ranheim >>>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not >>>used for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > readings. I wish I could get the actual spec on this from Toyota, but that > would be impossible. Thanks for your interest. Charles Ranheim Not sure if you'll take this seriously, but I'd go to www.cartalk.com, get the phone number for the PBS radio show, and see if you can talk to the two nutty, but very knowledgable guys who answer car questions. I don't know how they select who they'll call back, but if it's partially based on a question being unique, you've got a real winner. >>>>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not >>>>used for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > know how they select who they'll call back, but if it's partially based on > a question being unique, you've got a real winner. I do no know if those guys actually do research before providing answers, but I've seen some pretty poor responses. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>>>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not >>>>>used for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > but I've seen some pretty poor responses. > Ray O And I've heard some excellent ones. It's always worth consulting another source, especially since the dealer seems clueless about this. Gosh Joe, you are so smart, it's really overwhelming to even be on the same Usenet group with such a brilliant guy... Undoubtedly you are much more qualified to comment on the quality of the "CarTalk" responses than Ray. > >>>>>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not > >>>>>used for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >Gosh Joe, you are so smart, it's really overwhelming to even be on the >same Usenet group with such a brilliant guy... Undoubtedly you are >much more qualified to comment on the quality of the "CarTalk" >responses than Ray. ROFLMAO..... How could you question Joe 'the legend in his own mind'? SignatureScott in Florida >> >>>>>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was >> >>>>>not [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - > Gosh Joe, you are so smart, it's really overwhelming to even be on the > same Usenet group with such a brilliant guy... Undoubtedly you are > much more qualified to comment on the quality of the "CarTalk" > responses than Ray. I assume you have long lists of examples where the guys on the radio were wrong. >>> >>>>>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was >>> >>>>>not [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > I assume you have long lists of examples where the guys on the radio were > wrong. I personally would not feel comfortable getting advice or doing business with guys that name their company Dewey, Cheetham, & Howe. I will give them credit for doing research - they used to call our office or the local Toyota dealer for advice when someone had a question on a Toyota, and my boss at the time was a guest on their show. Back to the OP - I am pretty sure that the normal parasitic draw is listed somewhere, I'll try to do a little research when I get home. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not >>>used for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > readings. I wish I could get the actual spec on this from Toyota, but that > would be impossible. Thanks for your interest. Charles Ranheim From my experience fixing problem cars, I have learned to never assume anything. For example, it is possible that you and your daughter have the same aftermarket remote starter because you recommended it to other or vice versa. 25 to 60 milliamps used to be the "conventional wisdom" for acceptable parasitic draw, but modern vehicles have more systems that draw current with the vehicle shut off, and a little here and a little there start to add up, although I don't know if it adds up to 220 mA. Some systems are on timers, like the retained power for power windows, auto off headlights, and passive restraint systems. The stuff that is always hot are the powertrain electronic control module (ECU), clock, radio memory, security system ECU, and rear power door ECU (if equipped with power sliding door or hatchback). SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) Ray O I purchased my Sienna LE new, so I know I don't have any OEM attachments. My daughter bought her Sienna CE used. I have more options on my LE, but apparently none of these draw extra parasitic current. Charles Ranheim > Ray O > > I purchased my Sienna LE new, so I know I don't have any OEM > attachments. My daughter bought her Sienna CE used. I have more options on > my LE, but apparently none of these draw extra parasitic current. Charles > Ranheim I'm curious, what is your setup for measuring current draw. What kind of meter, I know it's an ammeter, but the make, model ect. External shunt perhaps? Where did you tap in, at the battery post? I also have a 04 Sienna and it has a security system that as soon as I lock the door it's activated along with a blinking LED on the dash. -- dbu, I used a Precision analog multimeter and a Fluke digital multimeter. I use their normal internal shunts because the current I am testing for is under an amp. I start out my making sure everything is turned off, and the doors are shut so all lights will be off. I then remove the positive battery cable and set it aside. Now, for the test, I connect the meter, which is set to the current range, between the removed positive battery cable and the positive battery post. You will now see the parasitic current draw from the battery. Do not turn anything on or open a door that might increase the current to the point it will damage your meter. Most multimeters have a low maximum current range. My digital Fluke has a maximum range of 2 amps (2000ma). My analog meter will handle 12 amps. I used that one first to make sure I did not exceed the 2amp spec on my Fluke. External shunts would be used to measure high currents. If you are not familiar with doing this, don't do it. You might burn out your meter, or at least blow the protective fuse it it. I am beginning to think the 25 to 60ma spec given me is a spec for most cars, and may not apply to my Sienna. Charles Ranheim >> Ray O >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 04 Sienna and it has a security system that as soon as I lock the door > it's activated along with a blinking LED on the dash. > dbu, > I used a Precision analog multimeter and a Fluke digital multimeter. I use [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > fuse it it. I am beginning to think the 25 to 60ma spec given me is a spec > for most cars, and may not apply to my Sienna. Charles Ranheim Ok, thanks. I have a Fluke 77 and some other multimeters, 260 ect. When the wx warms up I'd like to measure mine also and see what the current draw is. I often wondered about that because of the security system. I have left the Sienna in the garage for several days without use and never once has the battery come up dead. Could a leaky diode in the alternator cause excessive draw, just a thought. > >> Ray O > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > 04 Sienna and it has a security system that as soon as I lock the door > > it's activated along with a blinking LED on the dash. -- dbu, Keep in mind my daughter's 2004 Sienna has the same readings. Certainly we don't both have the same problem. Because of that, I am not treating it as a problem with my van at this time. I am hoping my new battery will solve the starting problem. Thanks for your interest. >> dbu, >> I used a Precision analog multimeter and a Fluke digital multimeter. I [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >> > 04 Sienna and it has a security system that as soon as I lock the door >> > it's activated along with a blinking LED on the dash. > dbu, > Keep in mind my daughter's 2004 Sienna has the same readings. Certainly > we don't both have the same problem. Because of that, I am not treating it > as a problem with my van at this time. I am hoping my new battery will solve > the starting problem. Thanks for your interest. Post what you find. I am interested. This is about as exciting as it gets with the Sienna. > >> dbu, > >> I used a Precision analog multimeter and a Fluke digital multimeter. I [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > >> > 04 Sienna and it has a security system that as soon as I lock the door > >> > it's activated along with a blinking LED on the dash. -- > dbu, > Keep in mind my daughter's 2004 Sienna has the same readings. Certainly > we don't both have the same problem. Because of that, I am not treating it > as a problem with my van at this time. I am hoping my new battery will > solve the starting problem. Thanks for your interest. I looked in my factory repair manuals and was not able to find a specification for parasitic current draw. My guess agrees with yours, that it is unlikely that both your van and your daughter's van would have the same problem. Sorry I couldn't provide more useful information. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) Here's an interesting article on the Controller Area Network in newer cars and the possibility of parasitic current draw (see last paragraph). http://www.aa1car.com/library/can_systems.htm On Feb 26, 11:24 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote: > > dbu, > > Keep in mind my daughter's 2004 Sienna has the same readings. Certainly [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) Also, this undated Toyota document says that typical parasitic draws are less than 20 mA, and are abnormal if more than 35 mA. http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/lab1instr.pdf On Feb 26, 11:24 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote: > > dbu, > > Keep in mind my daughter's 2004 Sienna has the same readings. Certainly [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) Mark, The information you sent was very interesting. If I didn't get the same readings on two 2004 Siennas, it would convince me something was wrong. The only difference I noticed in the parasitic check procedure was that they inserted the ammeter in the negative side of the battery output. I have seen it described both ways. I can't see that makes a difference. It still measures current flow out of the battery. I guess I will just have to see if I have any more problems now that I have a new battery installed in the van. Thanks again to all those who responded. Charles Ranheim > Also, this undated Toyota document says that typical parasitic draws > are less than 20 mA, and are abnormal if more than 35 mA. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> Ray O >> (correct punctuation to reply) > Also, this undated Toyota document says that typical parasitic draws > are less than 20 mA, and are abnormal if more than 35 mA. > > http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/lab1instr.pdf That is a work book from a technician training class from the early 1980's. I'm pretty sure that the acceptable range of parasitic draws has increased since that document was published. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >> dbu, >> I used a Precision analog multimeter and a Fluke digital multimeter. I use [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > use and never once has the battery come up dead. Could a leaky diode in > the alternator cause excessive draw, just a thought. -- snip My Supra has always been a weekend car and often will be left for a week or more with the alarm on. After 10+ years the only problems I see are the alternator brushes wear quicker and the weak battery always being charged on the road has caused some corrosion damage from the acidic vapors. Dan > Ray O > > I purchased my Sienna LE new, so I know I don't have any OEM > attachments. My daughter bought her Sienna CE used. I have more options on > my LE, but apparently none of these draw extra parasitic current. Charles > Ranheim That is good information to have, I'll try to remember to do a little research when I get home. I've been thinking about this post for a while, it is good exercise for the brain. In the meantime, if you are curious as to which circuits are drawing current, with the ammeter still rigged, pull 1 fuse at a time and watch to see how much the current changes, if at all, for each fuse pulled. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not used >for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console light [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >what you are doing, you could damage a current meter. Do not open any doors >or turn anything on while doing this test. Charles Ranheim. Okay, let me stick my oar in here. 220ma seems kind of high for "keep-alive" current. That's almost 1/4 amp and it will discharge a battery is a few days, or at least drain it enough to make starting the car questionable. Follow Ray's advice, pull the fuses, one at a time, and see what is drawing the current. Could be a cell phone charger, etc. Jack --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000718-0, 02/27/2007 Tested on: 2/27/2007 10:26:07 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com >>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not used >>for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console light [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com It looks like the "problem" is solved. I posted this on another forum. It was suggested I shunt the battery cable connection with the ammeter, then lift the cable off the battery post and see what the parasitic current was. When I did this, the current was only 12 to 15ma. I then opened the circuit for a few seconds and reconnected. The current was now back to the high (220ma) reading. I continued to monitor this, and after a few minutes, it dropped to the lower levels (12-15ma). Apparently, it takes a while for the computers to initialize after a power on, before they go into "battery saver mode". I did not know this. This explains everything that I observed on the two Siennas I tested. I just did not wait long enough for the onboard computers to complete their startup. Thanks again to all who responded. It sure was an interesting problem. >>>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not >>>used [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > enough for the onboard computers to complete their startup. Thanks again > to all who responded. It sure was an interesting problem. Then, why's the battery going dead, or did you replace it? >>>>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not >>>>used [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Then, why's the battery going dead, or did you replace it? JoeSpareBedroom, Yes I did replace the battery even though the dealer ran a load test on it and it tested fine. I did not fully believe this test, and I stated I had a new battery on 2/26. While checking for anything else that may be draining my battery, I found what seemed to be excessive parasitic current. I was unaware of the computer startup time after connection to a power source. Even the dealer was not aware of this. Charles Ranheim Not trying to be a pain, but this behavior is pretty much what was suggested in that first article (Controller Area Network) that I posted yesterday. Interesting that it takes so long for the computers to settle down and realize nothing is going on. > >>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not used > >>for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console light [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > Not trying to be a pain, but this behavior is pretty much what was > suggested in that first article (Controller Area Network) that I [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - Mark, When I took the current readings, it started out high, then began to step down. When it stepped down from 350 to 220 and seemed to stabilize, I though that was the final current. I should have waited longer. A few minutes later, it would have dropped instantly from 220 to 12 to 15ma. The suggestion the other responder made about taking the reading without interrupting the current flow proved it would eventually drop down. I called the tech person at the dealer I had been working with. He was surprised to hear that. I guess this is not something that is checked very often. I'm sure the parasitic current characteristics will vary from model to model. When the dealer showed me the printout from my old battery load test, it came out higher than spec! However, I still replaced the battery, but continued to look at other things in case it was not the battery. Getting stuck somewhere with a car that won't start can be a bummer at times, especially for my wife. The suspect battery was three years old. I convinced the dealer to replace it under the 3 year replacement warranty. Normally, I replace a battery anytime after 5 years even if it is still working. I can't remember when I had a battery fail within 5 years. I always buy the best battery I can fit in my car. This was my first Toyota battery. > >>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not used > >>for 3 to 4 days. I know nothing was left on, because the console light [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > computers to complete their startup. Thanks again to all who responded. It > sure was an interesting problem. Thanks for posting that. It's a handy bit of information to know. -- >> >>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not >> >>used [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > Thanks for posting that. It's a handy bit of information to know. I don't mean to beat this topic to death, but I just got a reply from Toyota about measuring the parasitic current on my 2004 Sienna. This is what they said: "The draw should be no more than 50ma, it is usually around 30ma. When checking the vehicle you will need to wait approximately 3 minutes for all the ECU's (Electrical Computer Unit) to go to sleep. So, after the ignition switch has been off for three minutes with: Hood latch latched (hood can be open) Key out of the ignition All doors closed All lights off " Take care, Charles Ranheim > >> >>I have had a battery go dead in my 2004 Sienna twice after it was not > >> >>used [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > Take care, Charles Ranheim Thanks Charles. This is good information and I saved it to my memory bank. Good luck with the Sienna, it's a great van. I have an issue with it every 3000 miles, called a oil change :) d. -- > On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:04:51 GMT, "cranheim" > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I'm glad I found this post. I have a 2004 Sienna XLE that has the same issue with the battery. It only takes a few days of being parked to kill the battery. I've had it in dealership about 5 times. Each time they tell me nothing found, no draws on the battery with everything off (your post makes me question their diagnostics). They've replaced the battery and recommended I put the car on a trickle charge or solar charger continuously. What the HELL? The consideration is I put low mileage on the car each day. It doesn't seem to be an issue with all my neighbors who have similar driving habits, but drive other vehicles, two of them toyotas. Their cars start right up. I too keep the automatic lights in a manual mode and have turned of the interior light switch to prevent any unexpected or additional draws on the system to try and ensure a start the next morning. I appreciate the post regarding pulling fuses until finding the culprit circuit. The hard part will be conveying this to a service writer who is not at all enthused to hear / see my name on a service order. Thanks again! >> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:04:51 GMT, "cranheim" >> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > writer who is not at all enthused to hear / see my name on a service > order. Thanks again! Do you have any aftermarket accessories installed like a remote starter or security system? SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) |
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