Wrong: MOTUL was first, in 1971, a year before Amsoil.

<...>

You left out "first to develop multi-level marketing scheme."

Prove it works better than other synthetic oils. Mobil 1 waited 3 more years
so it could have a good product on the market.

Yeap, that's true for Mobil 1, too.

No, you don't. Show us the data to back your claims.

I don't know if Amsoil or Mobil1 or another synthetic is better. But you
claims still don't show Amsoil is better.

Jeff

Mobil says that their synthetic Mobil 1 doesn't improve fuel economy
at all over their conventional oils.  Why should Amsoil be any
different?

Here is what I think -

- Not all Amsoil products are API certified. The Amsoil product line
that I know to be API certified, the XL7500 product line, isn't
actually a true synthetic (in my opinion). It is a highly refined
group III oil, like Castrol Syntec.
- There is no reason to believe that a particular synthetic oil of a
given viscosity will be more fuel efficient that a given conventional
of the same viscosity. Oil that receives the energy conserving rating
are tested in a reference engine and the fuel economy is compared to
the same engine running a synthetic oil of the same viscosity (a true
synthetic oil, not something like Syntec). To get the energy
conserving rating, a 5W30 oil must get 3% better mileage than the
synthetic oil To be sure, the synthetic oil is formulated without
special friction reducing additives.
- I don't know whether or not Amsoil's oils are better than other
oils. I doubt it.. Amsoil doesn't own a refinery, so they are buying
their base stock from other companies. They are also buying the
additives from other companies. Amsoil is just a blender. Maybe they
are picking a better bunch of ingredients, but I doubt it.
- I have yet to actually wear out an engine before I got tired of the
vehicle for other reasons (I usually become terminally bored with a
vehicle after 5 years and 100,000 to 150,000 miles or sometimes
sooner). Unless the oil is going to adjust my attitude, why is
spending 2 or 3 times as much per oil change going to make my life
better? I have three farm tractors. One is 27 years old. Still ahs the
original engine (including turbocharger). It has never gotten anything
but conventional oil. Would tripling the cost of oil changes made it
last longer? I doubt I'd live long enough to prove it.
- Amsoil corporate advertising is relatively restrained. They might
not tell you everything and they sometimes make misleading
suggestions, but I've never seen them tell an obvious lie. The
individual distributors are not nearly as restrained and honesty
sometimes gets lost in the hype.

Ed

The facts are as follows:

1. Amsoil products, other than the XL-7500 line, cannot
   be API certified because the level of ZDDP exceeds
   the API limits which results in too much phosphorus.
   This is not in dispute, Amsoil stated this. See:

"groups.google.com/groups?q=zdp+amsoil&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=1&ic=1&selm=3B02A3A8.185B25C7%40pinn.net"

     From: "Selbrede, Byron" <byr...@amsoil.com>
     To:  "'no...@pinn.net'" <n...@pinn.net>
     Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form
     Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:18:15 -0500

     "Actually it's the amount of phosphorus that is regulated-- but
that is directly related to the amount of zinc that can be used as they
are combined as zinc dithio phosphate (ZDP). This is only regulated in 2
viscosity grades, 5W30 and 10W30. Other than the Series 7500, AMSOIL
lubes all contain more ZDP than can be used in an API licensed oil. For
examples of our ZDP levels refer to data sheets for AMO, ARO, AMF or AMV."

2. The API limit on the amount of ZDDP was put in place
   because the phosphorus in the ZDDP shortens the life
   of the catalytic converter; the more ZDDP the shorter
   the life of the catalytic converter.

   "http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/additive.htm"
   "http://www.mixoil.com/ge_info.htm" scroll down to "Antiwear-EP"

   The only site I found that argued that this was not true was an
Amsoil dealer's site (not the corporate Amsoil site).

3. There are many synthetic oils, including one from Amsoil, that meet
the strict API certification requirements. See:

4. The high level of ZDDP in the Amsoil non-API certified
   oil (and some other non-certified oils) provides better
   wear protection than the API certified oils with the
   lower level of ZDDP. So it would make sense to use these
   non-API certified oils in vehicles without catalytic
   converters, in fact this is recommended. Read:

   "http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/oilreport.html"

   which talks about how motorcycles are better off using an
   oil with a higher level of phosphorus than is allowable in
   the API certified oils.

5. The use of an oil that does not meet the API standards,
   could cause a manufacturer to deny warranty coverage on
   items affected by the oil. Amsoil stated:

   "Major auto manufacturers and regulatory agencies have
   determined that warranties must cover all equipment
   failures unless they were directly caused by the
   aftermarket product in question or by the maintenance
   practice in question."

"http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&th=c983d81f1e083642,14..."

   Logically, since using an oil with too high a level of
   phosphorus is a maintenance practice and product that
   can directly cause a catalytic converter's life to be
   shortened, this qualifies as something that a manufacturer
   could deny warranty coverage over.

   Of course by the time the catalytic converter fails, even
   with a high ZDDP oil, it will most likely be out of
   warranty anyway. Does Amsoil cover premature failure of
   a vehicle's components that occur out of warranty? If
   so, how do they determine how much of the failure is due
   to the oil and how much is due to normal wear that would
   have occurred anyway?

6. The response I got from Amsoil about this matter was:

   "We have never received a complaint of premature converter
   failure." Well geez, I guess that proves that the API limits
   on ZDDP were put in place for no reason at all!

   So the absence of complaints proves that the high phosphorus
   level doesn't do what the API says it does?!

   Amsoil's response is inadequate for several reasons:

   i. The whole reason that API put the ZDDP limit in place was
      because too much phosphorus (a component of ZDDP) shortens
      the life of the catalytic converter.

   ii. Until an Amsoil rep let the real reason for
      non-certification slip out, no one who was using Amsoil
      would have the slightest reason to even suspect that an
      early catalytic converter failure could be affected by
      the type of motor oil.

   iii. Until an Amsoil rep let the real reason for
      non-certification slip out there were all sorts of
      bizarre reasons for the non-certification being put
      forward by Amsoil and its dealers. Now we know the
      real reason, and IMVAIO Amsoil made a BIG mistake
      in not just stating the real reason several years ago
      and promoting its API certified line for vehicles with
      catalytic converters. They looked extremely foolish by
      posting all those bizarre and weak excuses.

7. Some people may actually decide that shortening the
   life of the catalytic converter is worth the extra
   wear protection gained from oils with a higher level
   of ZDDP. These people can use the Amsoil or one of
   the petroleum based oils that have a higher ZDDP level
   and hence are not API certified.

I can't imagine the upside of Amsoil not simply doing some
product differentiation between their products for newer
vehicles and their products for jet skis, boats, and older
cars. They could turn the whole API thing to their advantage
and proclaim the benefit of the higher ZDDP level on their
non-XL-7500 line, and correctly claim that most of their
competitors don't have a synthetic with this extra level of
protection. And get this--it would actually be true! Of
course they don't have to say that there are plenty of
specialty non-synthetics without API certification that
also have the higher ZDDP levels.

I suspect that Redline synthetics fall into the same category
of "too much ZDDP for API certification" as Amsoil. But since
Redline does not sell via multi-level marketing they do not
have the reputation problem that Amsoil has and hence do not
invite scrutiny. I don't see any indication of API
certification on the Redline web site.

Which Amsoil product(s) carries the following approvals?

GM-4718M
GM-6094M
Ford WSS-M2C929-A
Ford WSS-M2C930-A
Chrysler MS-6395
ACEA A1, A3, B1, B3, B4
VW 502.00, 503.01, 505.00 etc.
Mercedes Benz 229.5 etc.
BMW Long Life 01
etc, etc, etc.....

Pretty much everything listed on the Amsoil web site is only
listed as "recommended."
"Recommended" does not mean "approved."
"Recommended" means 'spend your money here fool.'
"Meets or exceeds" does not mean "approved."

If it isn't "approved" the oil doesn't meet the recommendations
of the OEM.