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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / March 2007

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General Motors Death Watch 112: The Three Headed Dog Days of Winter

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Don - 08 Mar 2007 23:02 GMT
Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people........

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=3295
Jeff - 08 Mar 2007 23:36 GMT
> Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people........
>
> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=3295

Did you see what is going to happen to the retirees? They are going to lose
some of their benefits that they earned, if the predictions are true.

Jeff
Wickeddoll® - 09 Mar 2007 00:46 GMT
"Jeff" <...

> "Don" ...
>> Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people........
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Jeff

I feel so sorry for the domestic auto workers.  They trusted their employers
with literally their lives, and look how they're repaid.

AWFUL.

Natalie
DH - 09 Mar 2007 13:35 GMT
> "Jeff" <...
>> "Don" ...
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Natalie

Here's your Thought For The Day:

Our employers are looking at that situation and thinking how nice it would
be if they could bail out of their obligations, too.

There's no disgust among CEOs and Wall Street types when execs at a company
take on obligations, shed them in Chapter 11 and ruin lives and transfer
debts to the taxpayers, rather there's a lot of envy because the wealthy
will get wealthier.  There's money to be made.

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Wickeddoll® - 09 Mar 2007 17:45 GMT
"DH" <...
> "Wickeddoll®"...
>> "Jeff" <...
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> transfer debts to the taxpayers, rather there's a lot of envy because the
> wealthy will get wealthier.  There's money to be made.

Oh, I know that.  Evil to the core.

Natalie
Jeff - 09 Mar 2007 17:58 GMT
> "DH" <...
>> "Wickeddoll®"...
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Natalie

Unfortunately, the reality is too often that the only way you can keep up
with your competitors is to reduce costs. That happened with airlines. I
don't recall a lot of people saying: "Please add a pension, wage and health
plan surcharge to my fare so that those good workers get what is in their
contract."

And, I don't remember people go into the Michigan 3 dealers, and say, now
that we have agreed on the price, can you please send some extra money from
me to Detroit for the UAW workers?

Jeff
Wickeddoll® - 09 Mar 2007 18:43 GMT
"Jeff" ...

>> "DH" <...
>>> "Wickeddoll®"...
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Jeff

I get that, but I really doubt there are as many airline workers as auto
workers.  Even if there are, I feel sorry for them as well.

You cannot convince me that providing golden parachutes for execs, while
workers are ruined, is justified as "just business."

It's evil, and those involved should be ashamed.  They aren't, but they
should be.

Natalie
Jeff - 09 Mar 2007 19:12 GMT
<...>
> I get that, but I really doubt there are as many airline workers as auto
> workers.  Even if there are, I feel sorry for them as well.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Natalie

That's part of the pay package. I am not suggesting that execs earn their
pay.

Jeff
DH - 09 Mar 2007 19:48 GMT
> <...>
>> I get that, but I really doubt there are as many airline workers as auto
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Jeff

What I think Wickeddoll is saying is that it's fundamentally unfair that the
packages of certain workers are protected and the packages of others are
exposed.  I agree.

You might also consider the drive-by nature of some of these CEOs.  Look at
Mullaly.  What sort of loyalty has he demonstrated?  Little.  Ford's line
workers have been with the company for years.  They get the shaft and his
parachute is escrowed?  Give me a break.

And, in fact, the fundamental problem is that we have "defined benefit"
plans in place that are left unfunded and this situation is ignored.  As
long as it's "let the good times roll," nobody worries about it. If the
industry or company runs into a problem, the unfunded future obligations get
tossed and the workers get the shaft.

Walter Reuther's original vision for pensions and healthcare was to have the
auto manufacturers pay a certain amount of money to the union and union
would manage the pension (defined contribution plan).  Some unions do
(another opportunity for corruption, it is true) and these don't face the
same problem as Detroit's UAW workers.  The manufacturers rejected it
because it represented increased up-front costs.  I worked at a defined
contribution job for a while - a state government.  When I left with just a
few years in, I was given a check for my contributions, since I would not be
staying to participate in the benefits later.

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Wickeddoll® - 09 Mar 2007 20:45 GMT
"DH" ...
> "Jeff" ..
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> the packages of certain workers are protected and the packages of others
> are exposed.  I agree.

Yup, and the sweat of those workers funded those golden parachutes.  That
just puts salt into the wounds.

> You might also consider the drive-by nature of some of these CEOs.  Look
> at Mullaly.  What sort of loyalty has he demonstrated?  Little.  Ford's
> line workers have been with the company for years.  They get the shaft and
> his parachute is escrowed?  Give me a break.

The American way, unfortunately.

> And, in fact, the fundamental problem is that we have "defined benefit"
> plans in place that are left unfunded and this situation is ignored.  As
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> a few years in, I was given a check for my contributions, since I would
> not be staying to participate in the benefits later.

I got back my pension benefits when I left my last full-time job (I've been
part-time since then), which was only fair, I thought.  I also got what the
company had put in.  Too bad the auto workers didn't get such a deal.

Natalie
Jeff - 10 Mar 2007 03:48 GMT
<...>

> What I think Wickeddoll is saying is that it's fundamentally unfair that
> the packages of certain workers are protected and the packages of others
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> line workers have been with the company for years.  They get the shaft and
> his parachute is escrowed?  Give me a break.

Actually, I don't have that much of a problem with him having a golden
parachute. He left as CEO at another company to head Ford. There's no
guarentee that he will be the right person for the job or that the job can
even be done.

I don't know the size of him parachute. I would say no more than three years
of pay.

If you don't pay the CEOs well, they will just go to another company or stay
where they are. Who should be getting more money? The pitcher for the
Yankees or the CEO of Ford?

> And, in fact, the fundamental problem is that we have "defined benefit"
> plans in place that are left unfunded and this situation is ignored.  As
> long as it's "let the good times roll," nobody worries about it. If the
> industry or company runs into a problem, the unfunded future obligations
> get tossed and the workers get the shaft.

That's certainly problematic. I wish they forced the pensions always to be
fully funded. Some companies have external pensions that are also portable:
If you move from one company to another with the same plan, the pension move
around to. Like a 401k.

> Walter Reuther's original vision for pensions and healthcare was to have
> the auto manufacturers pay a certain amount of money to the union and
> union would manage the pension (defined contribution plan).  Some unions
> do (another opportunity for corruption, it is true) and these don't face
> the same problem as Detroit's UAW workers.

Oh, come on. Unions are never corrupt. All that stuff were heard about
Teamsters is all made up. ;-)

>  The manufacturers rejected it because it represented increased up-front
> costs.  I worked at a defined contribution job for a while - a state
> government.  When I left with just a few years in, I was given a check for
> my contributions, since I would not be staying to participate in the
> benefits later.

One thing that is problematic is that it is really hard to figure out
exactly what fully funded means. It is an accounting nightmare.

Jeff
 
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