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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / March 20072001 Prism blowing smoke--what went wrong?
I've had a problem with my 2001 chevy prism. I checked the engine codes and it was a misfire on cylinder 3. To eliminate the coil as the source of the problem, I swapped the coils from cylinders 2 and 3, then reset the codes and tried it again. The same code came back for cylinder 3, so now I'm thinking it could be an injector. I removed the fuel rail and injectors, then swapped the injectors for cylinders 2 and 3. When I put the fuel rail back on and started the engine, the car was blowing a significant amount of smoke, which it hadn't done before. I'm worried that something serious has gone wrong, but can't figure out what caused it. The car ran a bit rough before, but that was it. Now, it dies at stop signs and as I said, blows blue smoke. Is it possible that a small piece of dirt got into the cylinder through the injector opening and created this problem? I was pretty careful to keep that from happening, but I can't think of anything else. Does anybody have any ideas to ease my fears that I've wrecked a piston ring or something. Any help would be greatly appreciated. TD > I've had a problem with my 2001 chevy prism. I checked the engine codes > and it was a misfire on cylinder 3. To eliminate the coil as the source of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > TD It would have to be a pretty big 'piece of dirt' to do that! Are all screws, etc present and accounted for? That's my Best Guess. You'll have to wait for Ray or one of the Techs (if they're still with us) to ring in on this one... >> I've had a problem with my 2001 chevy prism. I checked the engine codes >> and it was a misfire on cylinder 3. To eliminate the coil as the source [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > (if > they're still with us) to ring in on this one... I agree that Ray will need to weigh in on this one, but I wanted to let you know what I did with a similar code on a 98 Sienna last summer. I do not remember the exact code, but it was for a misfire on one of the cylinders. I put in new plugs and wires and it went away for good. Checking out the coil for that cylinder pair was my next step but I did not need to go that far (and there was a procedure for that checking). I believe that a misfire means that it is not firing - an electrical issue, not a fuel issue. I would put everything back the way it was, and then put in new plugs and wires - you might need them anyway (?) - and go from there. Which code was it exactly? Is the code still there? Tomes > I've had a problem with my 2001 chevy prism. I checked the engine > codes and it was a misfire on cylinder 3. To eliminate the coil as the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > TD Check the valve guide seals on the number three cylinder valves. Blue smoke is an indication of motor oil (crank case oil) is being burned. Is it noticeably using motor oil? If the smoke is black it usually is an indication of a fuel rich condition and I would suspect an injector either sticking or programed open too long. You didn't mention the amount of miles on the vehicle. If a valve guide seal is worn or pushed off the guide, it will burn oil, and it will leak air and lead to a rough run condition as well IMHO. > > I've had a problem with my 2001 chevy prism. I checked the engine > > codes and it was a misfire on cylinder 3. To eliminate the coil as the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > off the guide, it will burn oil, and it will leak air and lead to a > rough run condition as well IMHO. If the valve guide seals are bad, what am I looking at for a fix? And why would the act of swapping the injectors start this problem? Thanks in advance for your reply. TD >>> I've had a problem with my 2001 chevy prism. I checked the engine >>> codes and it was a misfire on cylinder 3. To eliminate the coil as the [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > TD If you are certain that the smoke issue started when you changed injectors, like Ray said, check the coil wiring for an intermittent open (wiggle the wires as you are testing for power at that coil). Use new injector seals and make sure they don't get twisted as to not seal well as you insert them, a light coating of silicone will assist, and if it is a valve seal you usually have to pressurize the cylinder with air and remove the valve spring. The valve seals are pressed on the guides. Are you sure the smoke is blue (oil)? Fuel problems are usually indicated with black smoke. Is the car using oil? > I've had a problem with my 2001 chevy prism. I checked the engine > codes and it was a misfire on cylinder 3. To eliminate the coil as the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > TD We can speed up the diagnostic process and fix if you answer all of my questions. What is the actual code(s) you are getting? How many miles on the car? Where do you usually buy gas? Do you ever park the car for long periods with an almost-empty tank? Did you try swapping spark plugs? How many miles are on the spark plugs? What brand spark plugs are installed? What color is the smoke? Blue-gray? White? Black - sooty? When you switched the injectors, did you use new O-rings and grommets for any connections that you swapped? O-rings and grommets are not re-useable parts and new ones should be installed. You can get a misfire if the ignition system malfunctions or if the fuel mixture is too lean. If you have not done so, check primary voltage at the coil to see if the coil is getting power. Also, if you have not done so, check for power at the injectors.  SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) On Mar 11, 10:30 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote: > > I've had a problem with my 2001 chevy prism. I checked the engine > > codes and it was a misfire on cylinder 3. To eliminate the coil as the [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) Here's the answers to some of your questions: Code is P0303 Car has about 130000 miles Gas bought at Casey's. Usually ethanol blend Car never parked more than a day Tried two different sets of plugs. First was Autolite. Second was Champion double platinum. I had just put the Champions on before I swappped the injectors. Smoke is blue-gray. Had to change one o-ring because is was bad. Re-used the others. Re- used the grommets. None of these had any noticeable wear. Have not checked for voltage at the coil or injector. As I said, the engine ran just a little rough, and seemed to have a very low idle. It was not, however, very noticeable at highway speed. There was also never any blue-gray smoke until the injectors were swapped and the car was restarted. I'm guessing one injector is bad, but now my main concern is the smoke. I don't want to buy an injector for $140.00 if I've got more serious issues with the car. What's the best way to check the voltage at the coil and injectors? Any other ideas would be appreciated. TD > On Mar 11, 10:30 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >> Ray O >> (correct punctuation to reply) Look for my comments after your responses. > Here's the answers to some of your questions: > > Code is P0303 I forgot to ask before, but am I correct in assuming that you checked for more than 1 trouble code and P0303 was the only code? > Car has about 130000 miles It looks like you average 20,000 miles per year - is this mostly highway miles or over a fairly long commute? > Gas bought at Casey's. Usually ethanol blend As long as there is no more than 10% ethanol, gas should not be a problem. > Car never parked more than a day This is good for the car. Cars like to be driven, not sit around. > Tried two different sets of plugs. First was Autolite. Second was > Champion double platinum. I had just put the Champions on before I > swappped the injectors. Next time you buy spark plugs, try Denso. Also, when you installed the new spark plugs, by any chance, did you try to adjust the spark plug gap? > Smoke is blue-gray. Doesn't sound good, but sometimes 1 bad injector can cause blue-grey smoke. > Had to change one o-ring because is was bad. Re-used the others. Re- > used the grommets. None of these had any noticeable wear. In the future, try to avoid messing with the fuel injectors and injector rail unless you replace all of the O-rings and grommets for the injectors you remove, including the ones at the opening end of the injector. Injectors generally will not go bad unless you use a lot of gas from no-name independent gas stations. Before you crack injector seals, try a bottle of Chevron Techron fuel injector cleaner first. Also, if you put your finger on the injector, you may be able to detect it pulsing, and an injector that doesn't "pulse" may not be firing. > Have not checked for voltage at the coil or injector. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > TD Try the Chevron Techron fuel injector cleaner or find a service facility that offers Motor-Vac service. I doubt if messing with the injectors suddenly caused an oil consumption or valve guide seal problem, so a more likely cause of the smoke is an injector problem. If you have a volt meter and can fabricate a jumper wire between the connector for the injector and the injector itself, you can check the jumper wire for a voltage pulses. The coil will have a thin gauge wire leading to it. Measure the voltage between the thin gauge wire and a chassis ground. It should be 12 volts. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > > On Mar 11, 10:30 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 125 lines] > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) Ray, I really appeciate your help. Here is some more information I've learned, which probably doesn't sound good. I removed the new plugs, and plug for cylinder 3 was oily. The car also was down a quart of oil, after I had added a quart to full last week. I did not notice oil on the plugs when I changed to the Champions yesterday. I've tried two different fuel injector cleaners when the problem started, but not the Chevron. The car has almost exclusively highway miles. So here are my questions. Worst case scenario, a valve seal is bad. What does it take to fix and can this be done fairly cheap and easily if I do it myself? I have overhauled a couple engines in the past, so I'm not exactly without some experience working on them, though it's been twenty years ago. I know people on some boards I've read have talked about injector replacement as a several hundred dollar job when done by a mechanic. I could do the job myself in less than 20 minutes for under two hundred dollars. In other words, are the valve guides something that I could realize the same degree of savings if I do it myself? If not, is there any cheap, temporary solution to stop or slow the oil burning, like a different grade of oil or additive? The sad thing is, I still have ten months left to pay on this car, and financially I simply can't afford another. My wife and I both drive over 25 miles to work (in different directions), so being without either one of our two cars is not an option. So needless to say, this has put us in a serious bind. Thanks in advance for your reply. TD >> > On Mar 11, 10:30 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> >> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 140 lines] > the past, so I'm not exactly without some experience working on them, > though it's been twenty years ago. I'm thinking something fell into the hole when you had the plug out. This is a pretty large amount of oil consumption for one cylinder! Fill it again, check it tomorrow and see what happens... And get rid of those Champs! They suck! I used to use them in other cars, but in '78 I bought a new Corolla 1200. At 50,000 I changed the plugs and put Champs in. Damn thing didn't start <45 degrees! Local guy siad get Nippon Densos. Now, N-D's or NGK's are all I use in ANYTHING! > I know people on some boards I've read have talked about injector > replacement as a several hundred dollar job when done by a mechanic. Each injector is about $125! Make sure it's an injector problem before you go throwing that kind of money at it! > I > could do the job myself in less than 20 minutes for under two hundred > dollars. In other words, are the valve guides something that I could > realize the same degree of savings if I do it myself? IIRC, you have a DOHC engine. Replacing the valve seals involes removing the valve covers, the camshafts, the timing balt, the shims and then the valve seals. You're not going to do it in twnet minutes in your driveway, and you have to retime the cams when you put the timing belt back on. I would also suggest a new belt at this time, unless you did it recently. Also, mark the direction the belt is running in! You don't want to reverse the belt when replacing it. I believe you have something else going on than a bad valve seal. Usual indication of a bad valve seal is a puff or two of blue smoke on starting, and usually when a car has been sitting for a while. You say you drive the car daily; the smoke should be near inperceptable under these conditions! Also, I drove an '85 Corolla GTS for YEARS with bad valve seals; again, since I was driving it daily it was only noticeable when the car sat for more than two days. > If not, is there any > cheap, temporary solution to stop or slow the oil burning, like a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > directions), so being without either one of our two cars is not an option. > So needless to say, this has put us in a serious bind. If you do have bad valve seals, try using a High-Mileage oil like Castrol or ...um, Valvoline? (I only use Castrol...) I had this same condition with an '88 Supra, with a fairly decent CLOUD of smoke on start-up. I replaced the oil with High-Mileage, and after sitting 2-4 days the smoke is barely visible. I started it for the first time since November yesterday, and there was some smoke, but nowhere near years past! > Thanks in advance for your reply. > > TD Good luck. I think you have something else going on here. But, I've been wrong before...once. Really, let us know what happens. oh, and GET RID OF THOSE CHAMPS!!!!! Oh, hey did you read Tomes response? A bad plug wire or coil can cause problems, as Ray suggested. You said you changed plugs. did you do a full tune-up, with new wires (do you have those coil thingy's or a regular distributor?) And, use only genuine Toyota wires and parts, or a name brand replacement (by "name brand wires" I mean NGK or Nippon-Denso...they made the OEM wires...) oh, and, GET RID OF THOSE CHAMPS!!! <snipped> > Ray, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > without some experience working on them, though it's been twenty years > ago. Sorry to be the bearer of potentially bad news, but the worst case scenario is a bad oil control ring on the piston. If the blue-grey smoke is heavier at startup and eventually thins out, then valve guide seals are the more likely culprit. If the smoke stays the same or gets worse with higher engine RPM, then the problem may be the oil control ring. If you have an air compressor and a rubber-tipped nozzle, then you can turn the engine over by hand with a wrench on the crankshaft bolt until the piston is at top dead center compression and use the compressed air in the spark plug hole to hold the valve in place while you replace the valve guide seals. I recommend gettinng a repair manual - check your local library or auto parts store and studying the procedure before you start. Replacing valve guide seals is much easier than overhauling an engine and the parts shouldn't be too outrageous. > I know people on some boards I've read have talked about injector > replacement as a several hundred dollar job when done by a mechanic. I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > TD There are various additives on the market that are supposed to slow down oil consumption but I don't have much experience or faith in them. In my opinion, they treat the symptoms, not the cause of a problem. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > Tried two different sets of plugs. First was Autolite. Second was Champion > double platinum. I had just put the Champions on before I swappped the > injectors. UGH! These are the worst things you can put in a Toyota! Yank them and go get yourself some NGK Platinums or Nippon-Denso U-Groove platinums. Champions are junk! (I went to get a plug for my snowblower and asked for NGK. The guy had a near match for the plug but the exact thing in a Champ. He asked me if I wanted the Champ, I said, No I want the thing to start! We both laughed!) > Do you ever park the car for long periods with an almost-empty tank? What does this do? Because the garage I park my Supra in is basically inside the house!, and because it has a leaky filler tube (no longer available...) I park the car with a near empty tank for the winter... >> Do you ever park the car for long periods with an almost-empty tank? > > What does this do? > Because the garage I park my Supra in is basically inside the house!, and > because it has a leaky filler tube (no longer available...) I park the car > with a near empty tank for the winter... The extra space in the tank allows moisture to condense in the tank. The moisture settles to the bottom of the tank, and could theoretically get high enough to be picked up by the fuel pickup. The moisture can corrode the tank from the inside out and can foul injectors. Also, the air in the tank will turn the fuel into varnish. Parking with a full tank reduces condensation and varnish buildup. Some Sta-Bil in the tank also helps. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>> Do you ever park the car for long periods with an almost-empty tank? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Parking with a full tank reduces condensation and varnish buildup. Some > Sta-Bil in the tank also helps. Yep, I am a big fan of Sta-bil for stuff that sets around for a while. I go through a gallon of gas/oil mix for the chainsaw over the course of a year and with a shot of that stuff it has never been a problem, either in the can or in the saw [starts right up every time]. I use it in my tractor that can sit for periods as well. Tomes >>>> Do you ever park the car for long periods with an almost-empty tank? >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > tractor that can sit for periods as well. > Tomes Sta-Bil is great stuff and should be used whenever gas will sit for a while. Of course, I do not follow my own advice and never think of buying it so I never have it around when I need it. ;-) SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >Sta-Bil is great stuff and should be used whenever gas will sit for a while. >Of course, I do not follow my own advice and never think of buying it so I >never have it around when I need it. ;-) Next trip to Home Depot, pick up a container or two. They have a great measuring system for varies amounts of fuel that you want to protect. SignatureScott in Florida >>Sta-Bil is great stuff and should be used whenever gas will sit for a >>while. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > They have a great measuring system for varies amounts of fuel > that you want to protect. It's do as I say, not as I do ;-) SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>Sta-Bil is great stuff and should be used whenever gas will sit for a >>>while. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >It's do as I say, not as I do ;-) For the LONGEST time I was like you!!!! after a NUMBER of Springs coming around and having a gummed up mower and edger....I've finally broken down and added it to all my toys.... Plus my generator has it. Highly recommended..... SignatureScott in Florida >>>>Sta-Bil is great stuff and should be used whenever gas will sit for a >>>>while. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Highly recommended..... I used to use Sta-Bil all the time, but I gave all of my flammables to my neighbor when we moved from Boston to Chicago, never got around to buying more. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>>>Sta-Bil is great stuff and should be used whenever gas will sit for a >>>>>while. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >neighbor when we moved from Boston to Chicago, never got around to buying >more. Road Trip to Home Depot is in order....LOL SignatureScott in Florida >>>> Do you ever park the car for long periods with an almost-empty tank? >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >tractor that can sit for periods as well. >Tomes try sea-foam. Does the same, but better. Also helps clean out everything in your fuel system. >>> Do you ever park the car for long periods with an almost-empty tank? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Parking with a full tank reduces condensation and varnish buildup. Some > Sta-Bil in the tank also helps. Ah...OK. Since I park in a heated garage I don't have too much to worry about...that and a brand-new tank! But my Corolla has been sitting in the yard for three years with a full tank! Does that now qualify as an asset? <snipped> >> The extra space in the tank allows moisture to condense in the tank. The >> moisture settles to the bottom of the tank, and could theoretically get [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Ah...OK. Since I park in a heated garage I don't have too much to worry > about...that and a brand-new tank! I was actually thinking about your heated garage while I was working on the Sequoia brakes. BTW, I took apart the front brakes on the Avalon, freed up the caliper slides, ground off some rust on the rotors, put it back together in about an hour - even used a torque wrench! > But my Corolla has been sitting in the yard for three years with a full > tank! > > Does that now qualify as an asset? 3 years is a pretty long time for gas to sit around. I would add some Techron when you fire it up to prevent the varnish from gumming up the works, and next time, follow Scott's advice and add Sta-Bil ;-) SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > <snipped> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I was actually thinking about your heated garage while I was working on > the Sequoia brakes. Problem is, it's too small! I want to knock one of the walls back to free some room, but it's a bearing wall! it has jacks, and those would have to stay in place. But it would give me some more room. Getting under the car is tough, but I can work on the front or the rear OK. I haven't even got room to get in there with a grinder to start repairing the door and fender! I could in a pinch, but I WOULD be 'pinched'! > BTW, I took apart the front brakes on the Avalon, freed up the caliper > slides, ground off some rust on the rotors, put it back together in about [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Techron when you fire it up to prevent the varnish from gumming up the > works, and next time, follow Scott's advice and add Sta-Bil ;-) At this point in time, it's a write-off. Best thing (if I ever get to the damn thing!) is to just drain it and refill with fresh gas. If I ever get the car running again... >> <snipped> >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I could in a pinch, but I WOULD be 'pinched'! If the Supra is a tight fit, the Sequoia probably wouldn't fit. I guess the solution is to get rid of all the junk in the garage! ;-) >> BTW, I took apart the front brakes on the Avalon, freed up the caliper >> slides, ground off some rust on the rotors, put it back together in about [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > damn thing!) is to just drain it and refill with fresh gas. If I ever get > the car running again... SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >> I could in a pinch, but I WOULD be 'pinched'! > > If the Supra is a tight fit, the Sequoia probably wouldn't fit. > > I guess the solution is to get rid of all the junk in the garage! ;-) Um, you or *ME*?! ;) (Believe me, I'm working on it! See my next 'headered' post...) >>> I could in a pinch, but I WOULD be 'pinched'! >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Um, you or *ME*?! ;) > (Believe me, I'm working on it! See my next 'headered' post...) LOL! Probably BOTH of us! SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) |
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