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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / March 2007

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Is my oxygen sensor  bad?  1985 corolla, 4A-C engine, 2BBL carb, federal

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pretty@please.org - 23 Mar 2007 05:08 GMT
My 1985 corolla with 4A-c engine, federal emissions, 2  barrel carburetor
is running very rich, even at idle. I'm almost certain it's a carburetetor
problem, but I'm not positive.  
Does anyone know at what engine speed the oxygen sensor feedback system
(that leans the mixture as needed) starts to work?  I'm guessing it doesn't
affect the idle and low rpm mixture.
I followed the instructions by putting an analog meter on the two terminals
for the oxygen sensor (diagnostic socket by winshield wiper motor)  I'm
getting a stead voltage around 4 volts, but it doesn't seem to vary. I
unplugged the sensor and the voltage went away, so I know I'm measuring the
right circuit.  
Is this oxygen sensor bad?  
If so, do you recommend I replace it with an aftermarket part?

Ladies and gentlemen, thanks in advance for the suggestions!
-Mark Lum

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Ph@Boy - 23 Mar 2007 13:23 GMT
> My 1985 corolla with 4A-c engine, federal emissions, 2  barrel carburetor
> is running very rich, even at idle. I'm almost certain it's a carburetetor
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>> ... the ultimate tool for newsgroup downloading!
> -----------------------------------------------------------
It usually does not correlate to a speed, but a temperature. Sometimes
known as "closed loop".
Ray O - 23 Mar 2007 19:12 GMT
>> My 1985 corolla with 4A-c engine, federal emissions, 2  barrel carburetor
>> is running very rich, even at idle. I'm almost certain it's a
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> It usually does not correlate to a speed, but a temperature. Sometimes
> known as "closed loop".
Ray O - 23 Mar 2007 19:15 GMT
>> My 1985 corolla with 4A-c engine, federal emissions, 2  barrel carburetor
>> is running very rich, even at idle. I'm almost certain it's a
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> It usually does not correlate to a speed, but a temperature. Sometimes
> known as "closed loop".

When you check oxygen sensor voltage, it should be at around 1,500 to 2,000
RPM.  At that engine speed, you should get fluctuating voltage.   If voltage
is steady or non-existent, the O2 sensor is probably bad.  I tend to
recommend OEM parts because I have not had problems with OEM parts.  If you
decide to go aftermarket, look for one with the factory connector so you do
not have to splice wires.

A bad O2 sensor is not likely to cause an excessively rich condition in a
carbureted engine.  Check the float in the bowl and follow Ph@Boy's advice.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Mark Lum - 24 Mar 2007 07:12 GMT
Thank you Ray, for responding to my problem with running too rich.

>> It usually does not correlate to a speed, but a temperature. Sometimes
>> known as "closed loop".

Because I don't understand the circuit, can you post a link where I can  
learn more what you mean by  "closed loop"?

> When you check oxygen sensor voltage, it should be at around 1,500 to  
> 2,000
> RPM.  At that engine speed, you should get fluctuating voltage.   If  
> voltage
> is steady or non-existent, the O2 sensor is probably bad.

I tested around 2500 RPM on the dash tach and got a steady voltage.

 I tend to
> recommend OEM parts because I have not had problems with OEM parts.  If  
> you
> decide to go aftermarket, look for one with the factory connector so you  
> do
> not have to splice wires.

What is wrong with splicing Oxygen sensor wires or extending them? I've  
recently done with crimp butt connectors and about 8" of wire when I  
replaced an oxygen sensor on a family members fuel injected Chevy  
(Replaced just as preventative measure, the sensor was only $20)

> A bad O2 sensor is not likely to cause an excessively rich condition in a
> carbureted engine.  Check the float in the bowl and follow Ph@Boy's  
> advice.

There is no fuel visible in sight glass when engine is off, and it is in  
the middle of the sight glass when idling.  Do you think there could still  
be a float problem?

Thanks again!
-Mark Lum

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Ray O - 24 Mar 2007 17:20 GMT
> Thank you Ray, for responding to my problem with running too rich.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Because I don't understand the circuit, can you post a link where I can
> learn more what you mean by  "closed loop"?

The O2 sensor senses O2 in the exhaust stream, and from the amount of O2 in
the exhaust, the electyronic cocntrol unit (ECU) determines whether the car
is running rich or lean.  The O2 sensor does not provide accurate readings
before it is fully warmed up or under wide open throttle (WOT) conditions,
so under those conditions, the ECU ignores the signal from the O2 sensor and
uses default values to control fuel delivery.  This is known as "open loop"
mode.  The ECU uses the signal from the coolant temperature sender to
determine if the engine is warmed up and from a throttle position sensor or
WOT switch to determine if the throttle is fully open.  If the engine is
fully warmed up and the throttle is closed or partially open, the ECU goes
into "closed loop" mode and will use the signal from the O2 sensor to
control fuel mixture.  If the mixture is rich, the ECU will lean the mixture
until it is too lean, then enrichen it.

Here is a better explanation: http://www.aa1car.com/library/o2sensor.htm

>> When you check oxygen sensor voltage, it should be at around 1,500 to
>> 2,000
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> replaced an oxygen sensor on a family members fuel injected Chevy
> (Replaced just as preventative measure, the sensor was only $20)

There is nothing wrong with splicing O2 sensor wires or extending them if
the splice is done properly.  The connection is in a pretty harsh
environment, subject to exhaust heat and water splashing up from underneath.
A crimp connector can allow moisture into the connection and can corrode
over time.

The best way to splice an aftermarket o2 sensor is to cut the connector off
of the original sensor as close to the sensor as possible, slip some heat
shrink tubing onto the wires, then solder the splice, and apply some O2
sensor-friendly RTV caulk over the bare wires.  Once the RTV caulk has
cured, use the heat shrink tubing to protect the splice.  RTV caulk is
pretty expensive, and it doesn't keep well so if you add in the price of the
caulk, it is often cheaper and easier to buy a sensor with the correct
connector.

>> A bad O2 sensor is not likely to cause an excessively rich condition in a
>> carbureted engine.  Check the float in the bowl and follow Ph@Boy's
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Thanks again!
> -Mark Lum

It has been a very long time since I've looked at the schematics for a
carburetor, but I believe that fuel should be visible in the sight glass
when the engine is off.  If the fuel is draining out, that could be the
cause of the rich condition. I do not think the float is causing the fuel to
drain out of the bowl.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

larry moe 'n curly - 25 Mar 2007 07:38 GMT
Mark Lum wrote to Ray O:

> There is no fuel visible in sight glass when engine is off, and it is in
> the middle of the sight glass when idling.  Do you think there could still
> be a float problem?

If this is a matter of fuel leaking into the carb, I don't think that
the problem is the float valve, provided the fuel level looks about
right in the sight glass, because that valve is located high up.  I'm
not familiar enough with the carb to know where it can leak inside,
but have you tried tightening the screws that hold the venturis in the
barrel or replacing the o-rings on the fuel cut solenoids?
Kurt - 26 Mar 2007 13:58 GMT
> A bad O2 sensor is not likely to cause an excessively rich condition in a
> carbureted engine.  Check the float in the bowl and follow Ph@Boy's advice.

On the Corolla it can.  Mixture is controlled by air bleeds.  The carb
is set rich and air is bled in to lean the mixture.

You might try connecting to the O2 test port and watching the meter
as you drive the car.  If things aren't hot enough, the O2 sensor
does not work.
larry moe 'n curly - 24 Mar 2007 00:01 GMT
> My 1985 corolla with 4A-c engine, federal emissions, 2  barrel carburetor
> is running very rich, even at idle. I'm almost certain it's a carburetetor
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I'm guessing it doesn't affect the idle and low rpm mixture.

The forums at www.toyotanation.com should have all the answers.

Toyota manual says the feedback system is active between 1,600 - 4,100
RPM, when the coolant temperature is above 17C / 63F, throttle
position switch is on, and the vacuum switch is off (i.e., vacuum is
below 3.35" / 85mm).  But even if the feedback system doesn't work
right it shouldn't cause much trouble because all it does is lean out
the mixture slightly at times, not enrichen it the way many feedback
systems do.

> I followed the instructions by putting an analog meter on the two terminals
> for the oxygen sensor (diagnostic socket by winshield wiper motor)  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Is this oxygen sensor bad?
> If so, do you recommend I replace it with an aftermarket part?

The factory manual says to hold the engine at 2,500 RPM for 90
seconds, and while maintaining this speed, measure the voltage at the
E (brown) and Ox (black-white) terminals of the socket.  It should
fluctuate between 0 - 7V at least 8 times within 10 seconds.

The feedback system won't work if the throttle position switch never
opens and closes.  It's supposed to close when the speed in neutral or
park reaches 1,800 RPM, and this is adjusted by disconnecting the
switch from the computer and measuring the switch's resistance while
slowly raising the RPM in neutral or park until there's continuity.
The adjustment screw is at the end of the throttle positioner
linkage.  There are two screws there, and the one farthest from the
throttle positioner is the one you want to adjust.  The throttle has
to be opened only a tiny amount to trigger the switch, and with the
throttle closed there should be less than 1/16" clearance between the
adjustment and switch.

> I recently did run Sea Foam fuel treatment in the tank for the first time
> (in the concentration recommended on the can),

Is it possible that SeaFoam caused varnish in the fuel tank to
dissolve and clog the fuel filter or carb?

> This car used to run lean, and getting to much fuel to the
> engine is a very recent problem.  The fuel level is right in
> the middle of the float bowl sight glass, so I don't think it
> is the float or needle valve.

> The choke is operating properly.
> The AAP functions and there is no fuel in its vacuum line.

> The car is driveable if I disconnect the 3/8" vacuum hose that goes up the
> the HIC that is bolted onto the air cleaner, and I screwed in the pilot
> mixture screw all the way.  In other words, I introduced a MASSIVE vacuum
> leak just to compensate for this rich condition, so it is getting way too
> much fuel.  The car drove reasonably well like this, even at 65mph.

> The manual says when it's running rich it could be the "power valve" which
> is some spring loaded carburetor part. What does the "power valve" do, and
> could it cause it to run rich even at idle?

The power valve opens an extra metering jet to let in more fuel when
when the the gas pedal is floored and the manifold vacuum is low.  I
don't know if a leaking secondary fuel cut solenoid valve can also
cause a rich idle (wouldn't the closed secondary throttle plate
prevent much fuel from being sucked into the engine?).

The only brands of carburetor rebuild kits I've used are Tomco and
CarQuest/Standard, and some of their parts seemed inferior to the
factory ones:

1. coil springs had far fewer turns.

2. Tomco's fuel cut solenoid o-rings turned rock hard in a few years,
and one broke off and lodged in the brass body of the float valve,
which had large slots instead of small holes that would have prevented
this.

3. Standard's accelerator pump shaft rubber bellows became brittle and
cracked in about ten months, allowing gas to evaporate out the carb.
CarQuest gave me a whole new rebuild kit, and I apply grease to this
bellows to prevent rot (can't use silicone spray).

4. Neither aftermarket float valve had a filter screen to block
debris, and this allowed a piece of old fuel hose that had shed off to
lodge and hold the valve open.

OTOH the directions and gaskets were fine (actually corrected a
mistake in the factory manual, where the two fuel cut solenoids were
mixed up), the o-rings for the venturi body didn't deteriorate
noticeably, and the auxillary accelerator pump diaphram was as good as
the factory original's .

If the heater and choke wires aren't installed exactly as original,
including their clip holders and the choke linkage cover, the linkage
can bind.

My lengthy reply is no indication that I know what I'm talking
about.  ;)
Mark Lum - 24 Mar 2007 07:01 GMT
Thanks for the help, Larry, Moe 'n'Curly!

My 85 has two fuel solenoids (which do click when I apply voltage) and my  
throttle positioner has only 1 vacuum hose and I don't see any throttle  
switch (where would it be?) The OEM factory manual I bought (on your  
excellent advice, I do believe) is actually for an 83 (I couldn't find an  
85 manual for sale), and there are differences from 83 to 85, but the  
throttle positioner seems to be the same. There is only one screw that I  
recall (the car isn't near me now), one vacuum hose and one diaphram that  
I can see on the throttle positioner. I haven't adjusted that yet, since I  
want to solve one problem at a time. The Ox sensor testing procedure in  
the 83 manual is the same that you listed, but it doesn't say anything  
about a throttle switch.  What year is yours and where's this switch?

Also, you talked about the rubber accelerator pump bellow rotting and you  
said not to use silicone on it.
Why not??

The specific carb info you shared is priceless.  I'm going to buy a  
factory needle valve, no matter what, based on your experience. The advice  
on routing the wires carefully to avoid binding the factory linkages has  
been duely noted.  I'll take some digital pictures before disassemby,  
noting the routing.

You said, "My legthy reply is no indication that I know what I'm talking
about."
Well, you've got me fooled.
Thanks agin!
-Mark Lum
larry moe 'n curly - 25 Mar 2007 06:44 GMT
> My 85 has two fuel solenoids (which do click when I apply voltage) and my
> throttle positioner has only 1 vacuum hose and I don't see any throttle
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the 83 manual is the same that you listed, but it doesn't say anything
> about a throttle switch.  What year is yours and where's this switch?

Mine is a 1986 FWD, and the throttle position switch is located under
the fuel bowl window.  It's silver cylinder about 15mm diameter and
roughly 25mm long with a hard plastic plunger at the rear about 4mm
diameter and  8mm long.  This plunger should be covered with a rubber
bellows to keep out moisture.  I've read that some other Toyotas
instead use a switch with several contacts, one for each angle of the
throttle.

> Also, you talked about the rubber accelerator pump bellow rotting and you
> said not to use silicone on it.
> Why not??

Silicone can turn into silicon dioxide, or glass, inside the engine
and seal the oxygen sensor and make it quit working.

Here are some pages from the factory manual for the 1986:

Throttle positioner adjustment procedure:

  http://farm1.static.flickr.com/158/385279721_a6f0b76df5_b.jpg

Throttle position switch adjustment procedure:

  http://farm1.static.flickr.com/151/385285108_4705b4413b_b.jpg

Diagrams of overall fuel/emissions systems:

  http://farm1.static.flickr.com/183/385279725_081677c7fe_b.jpg
Hammo - 25 Mar 2007 13:38 GMT
On 25/3/07 3:44 PM, in article
1174801446.042131.197020@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com, "larry moe 'n curly"
<larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote:

-snip- \and apologises for jumping into someone else's thread...

> Silicone can turn into silicon dioxide, or glass, inside the engine
> and seal the oxygen sensor and make it quit working.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/183/385279725_081677c7fe_b.jpg

These are fantastic!

Thanks for posting!

Hammo
Hammo - 25 Mar 2007 13:44 GMT
On 25/3/07 3:44 PM, in article
1174801446.042131.197020@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com, "larry moe 'n curly"
<larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote:

> Here are some pages from the factory manual for the 1986:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/183/385279725_081677c7fe_b.jpg

Actually, do you have a clearer diagram/schematic of just the "rail" and the
hoses that runs from one side of the engine to the valve (TVSV) near the
thermostat?

The one I have in my manual (and the picture under the hood) don't match the
carby/emission set up that is in there.

Cheers

Hammo
larry moe 'n curly - 26 Mar 2007 01:07 GMT
> On 25/3/07 3:44 PM, in article
> 1174801446.042131.197020@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com, "larry moe 'n curly"
> <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote:

> > Here are some pages from the factory manual for the 1986:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> hoses that runs from one side of the engine to the valve (TVSV) near the
> thermostat?

Here are some pages from the manual that show each set of hoses
separately and may make it easier to sort them out:

Carburetor feedback system:

  http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/434239622_aada479417_b.jpg

Choke breaker system:

  http://farm1.static.flickr.com/156/434239626_8db9b4cce5_b.jpg

Choke opener system:

  http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/434239634_71e8885bb8_b.jpg

Auxillary acceleration pump:

  http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/434239642_c0aec0ba9b_b.jpg

> The one I have in my manual (and the picture under the hood) don't match the
> carby/emission set up that is in there.

Here are some diagrams for other versions of the 1986 Corolla 4-door
FWD:

Overall fuel/emissions systems (California):

   http://farm1.static.flickr.com/162/434239614_81e3294247_b.jpg

Overall fuel/emissions systems (Canada):

  http://farm1.static.flickr.com/183/434239616_f8d35337a0_b.jpg
Hammo - 27 Mar 2007 04:16 GMT
On 26/3/07 10:07 AM, in article
1174867676.048790.181640@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, "larry moe 'n curly"
<larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote:

---snip-----
Great info snipped
---snip-----

Top work!!

Many thanks for the schematics.  I'm off to play "under the hood". [1]

Cheers

Hammo

[1] No reference to Diaphragms OR Teenagers, though, does sound a tad
smutty...
 
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