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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / March 2007

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(non-Toyota post) Water heater advice?

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That Guy - 25 Mar 2007 15:05 GMT
I have a question about water heaters.  I apologize for posting to the
Toyota NG but there is no water softener group.  I know a lot of the good
folks here are do-it-yourselfers so maybe one of you will know the answer.

As you know, water softeners get mineral deposits that collect in the
bottom.  A friend told me that over time, the deposits get thick enough to
insulate the bottom of the tank.  Since the heating element is located
beneath the bottom of the tank and the water is on the other side of the
deposit buildup, the heating element has to stay on a good deal longer in
order to raise the water temp a given amount.  Not only does this waste
electricity, it shortened the lifespan of the heating element and the tank a
good deal.

He said if you drain your water heater once a year, the deposits will drain
out as well and eliminate the problem.  However, I heard this after my water
heater was already about six years old, and when I tried draining it, the
water came out glug-glug instead of whoosh, which my friend believes means
the deposits are partially blocking the drain hole so they're too big to
come out.

Does this make sense?

I have considered draining it and pouring a few bottles of lime away in
there, letting it sit for a few hours then filling it and re-draining it
several times to rinse out all the lime away.  However, I'm not sure the
lime-away wouldn't hurt my tank.  I don't know what metal the tank is made
from, though I have heard of them rusting so I'd guess galvanized steel or
maybe stainless.

Any thoughts on this?
n5hsr - 25 Mar 2007 15:44 GMT
>I have a question about water heaters.  I apologize for posting to the
>Toyota NG but there is no water softener group.  I know a lot of the good
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Any thoughts on this?

1.  The minerals the water softer uses to soften the water is salt.  That
actually leaves a little in the water and that's not supposed to be good for
you.

2.  My sister has a new A O Smith fiberglass lined water heater and she
purges hers once a month.  And it's just a water heater.  But Kankakee does
have 'hard' water.

Charles of Schaumburg
Ray O - 25 Mar 2007 16:59 GMT
>I have a question about water heaters.  I apologize for posting to the
>Toyota NG but there is no water softener group.  I know a lot of the good
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Any thoughts on this?

I would not feel comfortable using chemicals in a potable water supply
because there is no way to guarantee that you get it all out of the tank.

You mention water softeners, but from the context, I assume you mean water
heaters.  A water softener is supposed to remove mineral deposits; a water
heater heats the water.

If you have an electric water heater, the heating element is not underneath
the tank.  The heating elements are actually above the bottom of the tank so
that it does not sit in the sediment that builds up.

There is a sacrificial anode in the tank that corrodes so that the tank
itself does not corrode.

If you have a gas water heater, the flue pipe runs up the center of the tank
so that heat is transferred to the water through the center as well as from
the bottom.

Here is an explanation of how water heaters work:
http://home.howstuffworks.com/water-heater.htm

When you opened the drain your tank, did the water come out relatively
clear?  If you shut off the cold water supply and open the drain, the water
will drain very slowly unless there is a way to let air into the top of the
tank. I doubt if enough sediment built up on the bottom of the tank to clog
the drain valve, unless your water supply is really dirty.

If you want to empty the tank, shut off the heater so that you are not
heating an empty tank, shut off the cold water supply, and open the drain.
Then open a hot water faucet in the house to allow air into the top of the
tank, and it should drain much more quickly.

Signature

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

That Guy - 26 Mar 2007 02:49 GMT
>>I have a question about water heaters.  I apologize for posting to the
>>Toyota NG but there is no water softener group.  I know a lot of the good
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> Then open a hot water faucet in the house to allow air into the top of the
> tank, and it should drain much more quickly.

Awesome, thanks!!

You guessed right, it's just a heater...  I typed "softener" by mistake.
Ray O - 26 Mar 2007 03:34 GMT
>>>I have a question about water heaters.  I apologize for posting to the
>>>Toyota NG but there is no water softener group.  I know a lot of the good
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> You guessed right, it's just a heater...  I typed "softener" by mistake.

You're welcome!
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Pat - 25 Mar 2007 17:05 GMT
> He said if you drain your water heater once a year, the deposits will
> drain out as well and eliminate the problem.  However, I heard this after
> my water heater was already about six years old, and when I tried draining
> it, the water came out glug-glug instead of whoosh, which my friend
> believes means the deposits are partially blocking the drain hole so
> they're too big to come out.

Glug-glug is because air has to enter the tank as water is released.  Open
the pressure release valve to add air to the tank as you empty the water.
That Guy - 26 Mar 2007 02:50 GMT
>> He said if you drain your water heater once a year, the deposits will
>> drain out as well and eliminate the problem.  However, I heard this after
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Glug-glug is because air has to enter the tank as water is released.  Open
> the pressure release valve to add air to the tank as you empty the water.

Makes sense.  Thank you.
badgolferman - 25 Mar 2007 17:25 GMT
> I have a question about water heaters.

> Any thoughts on this?

You would be better served asking this question in alt.home.repair
That Guy - 26 Mar 2007 02:50 GMT
>> I have a question about water heaters.
>
>> Any thoughts on this?
>
> You would be better served asking this question in alt.home.repair

Excellent suggestion, thanks.
Ph@Boy - 25 Mar 2007 18:31 GMT
> I have a question about water heaters.  I apologize for posting to the
> Toyota NG but there is no water softener group.  I know a lot of the good
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Any thoughts on this?

If you are talking about a water heater and not a water softener, you
need to flush the tank yearly under pressure, not drain it. It is the
agitation of the water flow that will flush the tank bottom. Hook up a
hose to the boiler drain at the bottom of your tank and route it to a
drain. Open the valve and let it flush out under pressure for about one
minute. If you suspect heavy deposits, there are some commercial
products made that you can introduce into the tank to remove lime scale,
but an easy product to find at most stores comes to mind called "Iron
Out". It will remove lime scale and rust. If you have an electric
heater, lime scale will form on the heat elements as well, (usually two,
upper and lower) and the heating will not be as efficient as when they
are clean. They can be removed for cleaning or replacement if you must,
but that would not be normal. Try just flushing it first, then if you
need to, shut off the electrical and water supply to the tank, uncouple
at the di-electric fitting (cold supply, usually a blue plastic ring on
it), drain the water level down just a bit, and introduce the cleaner.
Let it work for about ten minutes or as directed, then couple up the
supply pipe that you disconnected, and flush under pressure. You may
need a few applications for a tank with heavy deposits. MAKE ABSOLUTELY
CERTAIN that you flush the tank VERY WELL after any chemical treatment.
Good luck.
That Guy - 26 Mar 2007 02:51 GMT
>> I have a question about water heaters.  I apologize for posting to the
>> Toyota NG but there is no water softener group.  I know a lot of the good
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> heavy deposits. MAKE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you flush the tank VERY WELL
> after any chemical treatment. Good luck.

Thanks!!
That Guy - 27 Mar 2007 22:45 GMT
> If you are talking about a water heater and not a water softener, you
> need to flush the tank yearly under pressure, not drain it. It is the
> agitation of the water flow that will flush the tank bottom. Hook up a
> hose to the boiler drain at the bottom of your tank and route it to a
> drain. Open the valve and let it flush out under pressure for about
> one minute.

How often would this need to be done, given a household of two adults and
that the water is softened before it goes into the water heater?
Bruce L. Bergman - 25 Mar 2007 19:15 GMT
>I have a question about water heaters.  I apologize for posting to the
>Toyota NG but there is no water softener group.  I know a lot of the good
>folks here are do-it-yourselfers so maybe one of you will know the answer.
>
>As you know, water softeners get mineral deposits that collect in the
>bottom.

 Are we talking softeners or heaters?  ;-)  Softeners put sodium ions
in the water that can precipitate out in the water heater, and add a
bit to the mineral buildup...

>  A friend told me that over time, the deposits get thick enough to
>insulate the bottom of the tank.  Since the heating element is located
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>electricity, it shortened the lifespan of the heating element and the tank a
>good deal.

 Close...  On electric water heaters there are two calrod elements
sticking into the tank from the side near the top and bottom, and they
get coated, overheat, and fail early.  On a gas water heater, the
burner is under the tank, but the sides of the flue going up the
middle also contribute to the heating.

>He said if you drain your water heater once a year, the deposits will drain
>out as well and eliminate the problem.  However, I heard this after my water
>heater was already about six years old, and when I tried draining it, the
>water came out glug-glug instead of whoosh, which my friend believes means
>the deposits are partially blocking the drain hole so they're too big to
>come out.

 The drain valve hole has crud in it - and/or they used a crap valve
with too small a hole.  Turn off the heater and allow it to cool, turn
off the water and relieve the pressure, and then take the drain valve
all the way off.  The loose crud will come out.

 Go buy a new Boiler Drain rated faucet, they have a seat that will
handle the heat.  Or better, a regular 1/2" ball valve, a brass nipple
into the tank fitting (to avoid dissimilar metals corrosion), and a
garden hose adapter.  They have "Quarter Master" ball valve faucets
that will work on hot water, but the orifice isn't full-flow sized.

 They put clean-out handholes on commercial water heaters so you can
reach in and scoop out the muck - but nobody ever does...

>I have considered draining it and pouring a few bottles of lime away in
>there, letting it sit for a few hours then filling it and re-draining it
>several times to rinse out all the lime away.  However, I'm not sure the
>lime-away wouldn't hurt my tank.  I don't know what metal the tank is made
>from, though I have heard of them rusting so I'd guess galvanized steel or
>maybe stainless.

 It's regular steel, rolled and welded plate, stamped plate end caps
- pressure vessel.  They line it with baked on porcelain ("glass
lined") so it won't rust out as fast.  No banging on the tank, if the
lining cracks that's where the rust starts.  And Lime-Away is an acid
wash, shouldn't hurt anything.

 If your water goes cold fast, check the dip tube - the Cold inlet
has a plastic or metal pipe inside to carry the cold water down to the
bottom of the tank, so the rising hot water goes to the outlet.  If
the dip tube rusts off or breaks, the cold mixes at the top and the
hot striates and gets stuck at the bottom.

 The other thing to check, if you actually want to bother, is the
sacrificial magnesium anode - looks like a pipe plug on the side or
top of the tank, marked "Anode".  It's supposed to keep the cracks
from rusting by eroding first, and it works fine till it is used up.
If you find it chewed away, good luck finding a replacement - Plumbing
Wholesale House or Google for a supplier to ship you one.

 When the water heater finally dies, consider an "Instant" tankless
heater if you have gas - but get a good one rated for two major
appliances at once, especially if there are two or more people in the
house.  The 199KBTU or better input.  They cost a LOT up front, but
they save a lot of energy over their life, and will pay for
themselves.

 Electric tankless heaters will only work if you have an oversized
service panel - Yeah, Right, Suuure...  They use electric tankless
heaters as dishwasher boosters for restaurants - they draw 100A to
150A 240V 3-Phase.  That's why the building has a 1200-Amp service
panel.

 And if you are in an All Electric house, seriously consider changing
over to Propane for heating if you can't get natural gas (or even oil)
- there are way too many losses in electricity generation and
transmission, and you're paying for them.  Generate the heat directly
where it's needed, and you WILL save money.

     --<< Bruce >>--
That Guy - 26 Mar 2007 02:55 GMT
>>I have a question about water heaters.  I apologize for posting to the
>>Toyota NG but there is no water softener group.  I know a lot of the good
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
>
>      --<< Bruce >>--

Fantastic, thanks!!
Jeff Strickland - 25 Mar 2007 23:18 GMT
>I have a question about water heaters.  I apologize for posting to the
>Toyota NG but there is no water softener group.  I know a lot of the good
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Does this make sense?

Blocking the drain hole and too big to come out? Yes, that makes sense.
Danny G. - 30 Mar 2007 19:03 GMT
>I have a question about water heaters.  I apologize for posting to the Toyota NG but there is no water softener group.  I know a
>lot of the good folks here are do-it-yourselfers so maybe one of you will know the answer.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> water temp a given amount.  Not only does this waste electricity, it shortened the lifespan of the heating element and the tank a
> good deal.

Flushing a water heater a couple times a year is usually a good idea.

That is if you dont end up causing more problems from desturbing
that 6 year old peice of junk plastic hose bib or end up with a seeping
presure relieve valve or something.

> He said if you drain your water heater once a year, the deposits will drain out as well and eliminate the problem.  However, I
> heard this after my water heater was already about six years old, and when I tried draining it, the water came out glug-glug
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Any thoughts on this?

I would suggest just leaving the water heater alone because its probably getting a little
old and you may do more harm then good at this point. (unless it's gurgling real loud and bugging you.)

When it comes time to replace it then you can set up the new one with a good valve and whatever it needs
to make it easy to flush.   Remember you open that valve and you get HOT water blasting out of there at
the same pressure as the garden hose.

Dan
 
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