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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / April 2007green cars
The May 2007 edition of Popular Science has an article titled Green-Fuel Guide where they give a description of gasoline alternative vehicles that they predict will be in use by 2027. They also give an estimated market share of these technologies and their pros and cons. I found it interesting and thought I would post it for those of you who follow such stuff. Batteries: Pros - Clean Energy, High MPG Cons - Not powerful enough Est. Market Share - 30% Whether in hybrid form or alone, electric propulsion will lead the way out of the petroleum era. Natural Gas: Pros - Clean, Abundant, Domestic Cons - Few pumps, Nonrenewable Est. Market Share - 3% This cleanest burning fossil fuel heats half of the homes in the United States. Why not siphon a bit off for your car? Ethanol: Pros - Renewable, Domestic Cons - Energy-intensive Est. Market Share - 6% Corn-based ethanol won't meet our energy needs, but cellulosic ethanol could reverse its fortunes. Diesel: Pros - Great Mileage, Available now Cons - Still made from oil Est. Market Share - 20% Its low sulfur content and sophisticated exhaust cleaners set the stage for a big diesel comeback. Biodiesel: Pros - Clean, High Energy Cons - Limited Supply and Market Est. Market Share - 4% Already common in Europe, biodiesel could get traction here as well but it needs for regular diesel to catch on first. Hydrogen: Pros - Zero Emissions Cons - Enormous Investment Needed Est. Market Share - 2% Hydrogen remains the gold standard for eco-friendliness, but its prospects are dimming as reality sets in. > The May 2007 edition of Popular Science has an article titled > Green-Fuel Guide where they give a description of gasoline alternative [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > This cleanest burning fossil fuel heats half of the homes in the United > States. Why not siphon a bit off for your car? How come we can't fill our cars with natural gas at home? Most of us have natural gas already coming up to the house, why can't we leverage this abundant resource in our homes and use it in our cars? > Ethanol: > Pros - Renewable, Domestic [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Hydrogen remains the gold standard for eco-friendliness, but its > prospects are dimming as reality sets in. I can't help but wonder if fuel cell technology -- hydrogen -- could be employed on residential structures. The average home in my area has 200 amp service, which seem to be relatively low in the grand scheme of things. They can use natural gas to get the hydrogen from, and as we've already discussed, many homes already have natural gas coming into them for cooking and heating. Since the byproduct of fuel cells is water, I could use it to water my garden. Or, it could simply run off into the gutter and find its way to the local creek or pond, like all of the other water that drains from around here. It occurs to me that a residential structure would have a relatively level power demand, and designing a system to meet the need of a homeowner should be not be a difficult task. If we could take a few million homes off the power grid, then we would save loads of coal used to run the power plants. Or, we could divert the power to more productive uses instead of using it to power my TV. >> The May 2007 edition of Popular Science has an article titled >> Green-Fuel Guide where they give a description of gasoline alternative [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > natural gas already coming up to the house, why can't we leverage this > abundant resource in our homes and use it in our cars? Around my little nephew, it is really abundant. If you could hook a hose to his butt.... The natural gas that is in tanks (like the one in the back of the natural gas cars) is under far greater pressure than the natural gas that is in gas lines going into your house. So you would need hardware to pump the gas into the tank. >> Ethanol: >> Pros - Renewable, Domestic [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > gutter and find its way to the local creek or pond, like all of the other > water that drains from around here. Actually, in the future, that would be a real possibility. Unfortunately, I don't think the technology is there yet. One issue is that the demand is greater than ever for natural gas. So there is a limitation on the amount of natural gas that can be used in the US. > It occurs to me that a residential structure would have a relatively level > power demand, and designing a system to meet the need of a homeowner > should be not be a difficult task. If we could take a few million homes > off the power grid, then we would save loads of coal used to run the power > plants. Or, we could divert the power to more productive uses instead of > using it to power my TV. And how are we going to power your TV? >>> The May 2007 edition of Popular Science has an article titled >>> Green-Fuel Guide where they give a description of gasoline alternative [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > gas lines going into your house. So you would need hardware to pump the > gas into the tank. I was thinking of that as I was typing earlier. I don't know what comes into my house, but I know it is regulated down to about 5 psi. But, if I have a ready supply, then it seems that with a bit of hardware I could get the job done. >>> Ethanol: >>> Pros - Renewable, Domestic [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > And how are we going to power your TV? >>>> The May 2007 edition of Popular Science has an article titled >>>> Green-Fuel Guide where they give a description of gasoline alternative [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > But, if I have a ready supply, then it seems that with a bit of hardware I > could get the job done. There are also other requirements, like special valves and valve seats for the engine. Some cars are already run natural gas, so this can be overcome. The tanks take up more space than gasoline tanks that store the same amount of fuel in gasoline. And there are special safety requirements for handling natural gas. But, it can be done. I don't know if there are places in the US that use natural gas, from household supplies, to power cars. I wouldn't be too surprised if there are experimental setups in some places. Jeff Where do you think we will get the NG? NG is in short supply today as it is. Most of the NG comes from the Gulf of Mexico and the lines to the rest of the country are at capacity that is why much of it is burned off at the well head, to get out the crude oil. The balance is imported as LNG. Try to build more NG transmission lines and the environuts will go NUTS Like gasoline, because of supply and demand, the price of NG is currently very high, around $4 a gallon. If used as a motor fuel it will require the addition of an average of 65c a gallon in road taxes. LOL mike >>>> How come we can't fill our cars with natural gas at home? Most of us >>>> have natural gas already coming up to the house, why can't we leverage [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Jeff > Where do you think we will get the NG? NG is in short supply today as it > is. Most of the NG comes from the Gulf of Mexico and the lines to the rest [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > very high, around $4 a gallon. If used as a motor fuel it will require > the addition of an average of 65c a gallon in road taxes. LOL When did I suggest this is a good idea? Get a clue and have a nice afternoon. Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> >> Jeff Don't be dinging on him, it was my idea that we suck natural gas from the pipes leading to our homes and pump it into the family sedan. > Where do you think we will get the NG? NG is in short supply today as it > is. Most of the NG comes from the Gulf of Mexico and the lines to the rest [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> >> Jeff Generally my comment is addressed to the post, as was that, not some persons individual comment to the post. mike > Don't be dinging on him, it was my idea that we suck natural gas from the > pipes leading to our homes and pump it into the family sedan. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >>> >>> Jeff Sorry, it looked to me like you were getting on him for my suggestion that we use natural gas in our cars. > Generally my comment is addressed to the post, as was that, not some > persons individual comment to the post. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >>>> >>>> Jeff <snipped> >> I was thinking of that as I was typing earlier. I don't know what comes >> into my house, but I know it is regulated down to about 5 psi. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jeff You can by a PHILL compressor for about $2,000 to do the job: http://www.myphill.com/  SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@verizon.net> wrote... >> "Jeff" <news@googlemail.com> wrote... >>> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@verizon.net> wrote... >>>> "badgolferman" wrote... >>>>> The May 2007 edition of Popular Science has an article titled >>>>> Green-Fuel Guide where they give a description of gasoline alternative [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>>> have natural gas already coming up to the house, why can't we leverage >>>> this abundant resource in our homes and use it in our cars? They exist, all computerized, and they shut themselves off after 8000 hours run-time so you can have it rebuilt. They have a point - you don't want it breaking and causing a gas leak. >>> Around my little nephew, it is really abundant. If you could hook a hose >>> to his butt.... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> gas lines going into your house. So you would need hardware to pump the >>> gas into the tank. The other big bugaboo is that you have to replace the CNG fuel tanks on your vehicle every 10 to 15 years, and they are Not Cheap. They use thin Aluminum or Steel tanks wrapped with a thick fiberglass reinforcing layer, and they really can't predict their failure reliably so they just say scrap them based on service time. They are experimenting with microphone transducers built into the tank at geometric strategic points so a computer can monitor during fill cycles for the little pops and squeaks that would indicate a crack developing and roughly determine the location and size, but success sems a long way off. >> I was thinking of that as I was typing earlier. I don't know what comes >> into my house, but I know it is regulated down to about 5 psi. No, it is only left at 5 PSI for restaurants and large commercial buildings, or when the meter is out at the street. Then they reduce it again at each appliance. For most residential they knock it down to 10" Water Column (below 1 PSI) at the meter. And they have regulators inside the appliances that work usually at 4" WC pressure. >> But, if I have a ready supply, then it seems that with a bit of hardware I >> could get the job done. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >that use natural gas, from household supplies, to power cars. I wouldn't be >too surprised if there are experimental setups in some places. The entire Los Angeles Metro bus system is fueled by Compressed Natural Gas, so it's out there. Southern California Gas has public fueling stations at many of their service yards for travelers. --<< Bruce >>-- > Actually, in the future, that would be a real possibility. Unfortunately, > I don't think the technology is there yet. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > And how are we going to power your TV? Whoops, I hit Send too soon earlier ... I'd watch my TV with the poswer from my fuel cell instead of power from the grid. I was speaking of diverting electricity from what is essentially an unproductive activity and sending it to more productive uses, like a manufacturing plant or a hospital. We are facing a serious shortage of electricity in my state, and if homes could be converted to fuel cell technology, then the burden on the exisiting power plants would be reduced. >> Actually, in the future, that would be a real possibility. Unfortunately, >> I don't think the technology is there yet. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > technology, then the burden on the exisiting power plants would be > reduced. It sounds like working on the electrical grid infrastructure, as well as steps to reduce demand, like lowering air conditioning use during day light hours when the demand peaks, putting timers on hot water heaters so that they are not heating water when people don't use lots of hot water (like at home when people are sleeping or at work), unplugging TVs and other electronic equipment (TVs and other electronic equipment draw about 5 W when they are off to power the background electronics, like the light sensor that lets you turn on the TV with the remote), and encouraging people to do their laundry and things during evening and morning hours when the demand is lower. Jeff Domestic hot water is not solely heated by electricity. NG, propane, fuel oil and coal are also used around the country to heat domestic hot water. I personally use, coal, propane, fuel oil and NG. mike >>> Actually, in the future, that would be a real possibility. >>> Unfortunately, I don't think the technology is there yet. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Jeff > Domestic hot water is not solely heated by electricity. NG, propane, fuel > oil and coal are also used around the country to heat domestic hot water. > I personally use, coal, propane, fuel oil and NG. I never claimed they are solely powered by electricity. Obviously, if the water in someone's house is not heated by electricity, then put a timer on a hot water heater would save some other type of energy. You need a happy pill or something. Have a lovely afternoon. Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> >> Jeff >> Domestic hot water is not solely heated by electricity. NG, propane, >> fuel oil and coal are also used around the country to heat domestic hot [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Jeff I'm not sure how one would put a timer on a gas water heater. The pilot light must remain lit, OR be able to light by itself. I live in paradise, and except for the deep dark months of winter where the temps plunge to the low 60s in day time, I don't think my water heater ever comes on unless the water gets cold -- which only happens if the hot water is drawn out and cold water is pumped back in. But, I understand your point, as it applies to an all-electric house. Our fiend Jeff obviously does not understand the operating parameters of most modern domestic hot water heaters. mike >>> Domestic hot water is not solely heated by electricity. NG, propane, >>> fuel oil and coal are also used around the country to heat domestic hot [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > But, I understand your point, as it applies to an all-electric house. >>> Domestic hot water is not solely heated by electricity. NG, propane, >>> fuel oil and coal are also used around the country to heat domestic hot [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'm not sure how one would put a timer on a gas water heater. The pilot > light must remain lit, OR be able to light by itself. Gas hot waters now have electronic ignition available. It would be relatively easy to put a timer on the powr source for the electronic ignition. I live in paradise, > and except for the deep dark months of winter where the temps plunge to > the low 60s in day time, That sounds like the SF Bay area in the summer! ;-) SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>> Domestic hot water is not solely heated by electricity. NG, propane, >>>> fuel oil and coal are also used around the country to heat domestic hot [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > relatively easy to put a timer on the powr source for the electronic > ignition. I am aware of those, but the vast majority of gas water heaters do not have igniters. And, since they do not have igniters, odds are they do not have an electrical outlet nearby. > I live in paradise, >> and except for the deep dark months of winter where the temps plunge to >> the low 60s in day time, > > That sounds like the SF Bay area in the summer! ;-) So Cal, my friend. I'm just north of San Diego. >>> I'm not sure how one would put a timer on a gas water heater. The pilot >>> light must remain lit, OR be able to light by itself. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > have igniters. And, since they do not have igniters, odds are they do not > have an electrical outlet nearby. OTOH, hot water heaters are (one of) the least expensive appliances to purchase. Mine's in the cellar, with washer/dryer nearby, so electrical outlets. Cathy >> I live in paradise, >>> and except for the deep dark months of winter where the temps plunge to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > So Cal, my friend. I'm just north of San Diego. ><snipped> >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > have igniters. And, since they do not have igniters, odds are they do not > have an electrical outlet nearby. I am only familiar with the setups in the SF Bay area, Boston area, and the Chicago area, but in Boston and Chiago, natural gas water heaters are generally very close to the home furnace so that they can share the same flue or chase up to the exhaust, and furnaces need power to run the blowers. >> I live in paradise, >>> and except for the deep dark months of winter where the temps plunge to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > So Cal, my friend. I'm just north of San Diego. The weather doesn't get much better than where you are! SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >><snipped> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > flue or chase up to the exhaust, and furnaces need power to run the > blowers. Ours are not like that. My wagter heater gets its own flue and gas feed. The gas is never turned off because the loss of pilot light would require a match to relight it. In the new houses that I've recently built, the igniter was a piso so the match is not required. But, if the pilot light goes out, it requires human intervention to get it back online. >>> I live in paradise, >>>> and except for the deep dark months of winter where the temps plunge to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The weather doesn't get much better than where you are! 101 today. >>> Actually, in the future, that would be a real possibility. >>> Unfortunately, I don't think the technology is there yet. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > people to do their laundry and things during evening and morning hours > when the demand is lower. All of that is fine, but I'm not gonna do it because it is a pain in the a.s. I would like to see fuel cell technology applied to residential structures because that would let me use energy on my own schedule without being a problem for the rest of you. PS I already have my house filled with dimmers so the lights can be run with 5 watts instead of 75, I already only use the AC in the early evening when I am at home and hot. And, I have a $5000 solar system to het my pool -- the downside is that it requires the pool pump to run in the day time if it is going to heat my pool. I'm no saint when it comes to energy, but I think that humans can reduce demand by getting supplies from other sources. ><snipped>> > > How come we can't fill our cars with natural gas at home? Most of us have > natural gas already coming up to the house, why can't we leverage this > abundant resource in our homes and use it in our cars? The normal operating pressure for a house is a lot lower than the pressure needed to fill an automotive CNG tank. There is a device available, IIRC for around $1,600, that can be hooked up to the home's natural gas supply to fill CNG Hondas. I think the process takes most of the night to fill the Honda's tank. > I can't help but wonder if fuel cell technology -- hydrogen -- could be > employed on residential structures. The average home in my area has 200 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > plants. Or, we could divert the power to more productive uses instead of > using it to power my TV. This makes sense, however the cost of fuel cells is currently so high and the technology to convert natural gas to hydrogen is probably not commercially feasible yet. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >> The May 2007 edition of Popular Science has an article titled >> Green-Fuel Guide where they give a description of gasoline alternative [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >natural gas already coming up to the house, why can't we leverage this >abundant resource in our homes and use it in our cars? You can. Check out the new Honda Civic that runs on natural gas. You can install a device in your home that fills it overnight. Attractive since there is a 4K tax credit and you operate much cheaper. It's also the real load to the environment. People seem to forget the added load to the environment by using all these batteries in hybrids. IF you add it up, they are actually less env.friendly. >> Ethanol: >> Pros - Renewable, Domestic [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >Or, we could divert the power to more productive uses instead of using it to >power my TV. |
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