Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / June 2007
Previa ac test
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Joe - 16 Jun 2007 06:22 GMT Can I test the ac in my Previa to see if it has any charge left, w/o spending 175 bucks getting it done at Toyoya? My ac is down and out, but I discovered the belt is broken and probably had been for some time. I dont want to waste 2 hours putting it back in if the old ac is leaking like a sieve
nm5k@wt.net - 16 Jun 2007 06:48 GMT > Can I test the ac in my Previa to see if it has any charge left, w/o > spending 175 bucks getting it done at Toyoya? My ac is down and out, > but I discovered the belt is broken and probably had been for some > time. I dont want to waste 2 hours putting it back in if the old ac is > leaking like a sieve You can't check the charge until it's running. The only thing you can check is to see if it's totally empty, or still has some. Just punch the valve pin and see if any pressure. If it hasn't been out too long, a belt may be all you need. If it's leaking fast, it won't have anything in it. But if it still has refrigerent, if it has a leak, it's probably fairly small. All you can do is get a new belt and go from there. Hope your clutch didn't seaze, and thats why the belt is gone.. I've had that happen before in a chevy chevette. Put so much squealing drag on the engine it killed it at stop lights.. I had to get out and cut it with a knife. The longer it sits without working, the more likely you will develop seal leaks, so I wouldn't wait too long to check it out. You might get lucky and have the belt be the only real problem. Might need a top off of refrigerent, but that can be had for less than $175.. MK
Ray O - 16 Jun 2007 16:27 GMT > Can I test the ac in my Previa to see if it has any charge left, w/o > spending 175 bucks getting it done at Toyoya? My ac is down and out, > but I discovered the belt is broken and probably had been for some > time. I dont want to waste 2 hours putting it back in if the old ac is > leaking like a sieve As MK suggested, you need to have the belt installed to check the AC's function. The problem with releasing refrigerant from the schrader valve is that even a small amount of refrigerant lost will diminish the AC's capacity a little, and it is illegal to vent refrigerant to the atmosphere.
You should be able to replace the belt in a half our or hour or so. With the AC running, look at the sight glass on the receiver drier in front of the condenser. The receiver drier is a metal cylinder about the size of an aerosol can with metal lines running in and out and a dime-sized glass window on top. With the AC running and he system fully charged, you should see a clear liquid running past the glass. If you see foam or nothing in the sight glass, the system needs charging. With the belt installed, if the compressor is seized, you will hear a squeal, the system should shut itself down, and the AC light on the dashboard should start blinking, indicating a problem.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Joe - 16 Jun 2007 18:20 GMT On Jun 16, 10:27 am, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
> > Can I test the ac in my Previa to see if it has any charge left, w/o > > spending 175 bucks getting it done at Toyoya? My ac is down and out, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that even a small amount of refrigerant lost will diminish the AC's capacity > a little, and it is illegal to vent refrigerant to the atmosphere. Oops. Shhhhh. ;-) I have good reason to believe I have some charge left, but I would not break the law.
> You should be able to replace the belt in a half our or hour or so. You overestimate me, but thanks.
With
> the AC running, look at the sight glass on the receiver drier in front of > the condenser. The receiver drier is a metal cylinder about the size of an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > down, and the AC light on the dashboard should start blinking, indicating a > problem. OK, there WAS some squealing when the ac was still sort of working. I say sort of because even after it was recharged 6-7 years ago it was never very cold. It started squealing a couple years ago when I ran the ac, then it stopped squealing (I think) last year. I took this to be a good sign but it probably just meant the belt broke about then.
the belt pulley turn freely on the ac unit-does this mean the compressor/clutch is probably OK?
Joe - 16 Jun 2007 18:26 GMT I did another test. With the ac on, the belt wheel spins with the rest of the (whatever you call it) compressor drive when turned by hand. When the ac is off, the belt wheel spins independently of the compressor when turned by hand. I take this to mean the clutch is good, because its engaging the two when turned on.
Ray O - 16 Jun 2007 19:23 GMT >I did another test. With the ac on, the belt wheel spins with the rest > of the (whatever you call it) compressor drive when turned by hand. > When the ac is off, the belt wheel spins independently of the > compressor when turned by hand. I take this to mean the clutch is > good, because its engaging the two when turned on. Yes, the compressor clutch is working, and if you can turn the compressor by hand, then it is not seized. If you think your system is charged, install a new belt and fire her up!
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Joe - 16 Jun 2007 19:32 GMT > >I did another test. With the ac on, the belt wheel spins with the rest > > of the (whatever you call it) compressor drive when turned by hand. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) And do I just take the alternator belt off and loosen the compressor to install the ac belt, or is there a more involved procedure?
: P - 16 Jun 2007 19:46 GMT "do I just take the alternator belt off and loosen the compressor to install the ac belt"
yep
Ray O - 16 Jun 2007 20:00 GMT >> >I did another test. With the ac on, the belt wheel spins with the rest >> > of the (whatever you call it) compressor drive when turned by hand. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > And do I just take the alternator belt off and loosen the compressor > to install the ac belt, or is there a more involved procedure? IIRC, all you have to do is remove the alternator belt, loosen the compressor, and swap the belts. Since you are going to have to remove the alternator belt, you may want to replace it if it is over 60K miles.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Jeff Strickland - 16 Jun 2007 21:52 GMT >>> >I did another test. With the ac on, the belt wheel spins with the rest >>> > of the (whatever you call it) compressor drive when turned by hand. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > compressor, and swap the belts. Since you are going to have to remove the > alternator belt, you may want to replace it if it is over 60K miles. What Ray said, and more.
You mentioned that there was some squealing. This is a common ailment of a loose belt, and generally is not a sign of more serious trouble.
As you replace the belts, you should be able to locate the adjustment devices. Back in the earliest days of the Wheel, we had to pry the adjustable pulley with one hand and tighten the locking nut with the other. But these days, the belt adjustment is made by loosening a small lock nut (typically 10mm) and adjusting a long screw in or out to make affect the adjustment. I forget the proper spec (maybe Ray can help us out here), but you should have about 1/2 inch of deflection at the center of the distance between the pullies. Find a place between two pullies and press or pull the belt. It should move about 1/2 inch with about 5 or 10 pounds of force. (this is the part where Ray might have the actual figures.)
I also agree with Ray, you should go ahead and replace all of the belts.
Joe - 16 Jun 2007 22:42 GMT On Jun 16, 10:27 am, "Ray O"
> You should be able to replace the belt in a half our or hour or so. Heck I'm going on 2 hours of spraying and trying to just loosen the compressor up without stripping the nut.
: P - 17 Jun 2007 02:00 GMT you may need to loosen the compressor mounting bolts, in addition to the tension/adjustment bolt. just loosening the tension/adjustment bolt may not be good enough to loosen the compressor. BTW, I just checked MY Previa and the tension/adjustment bolt is held on by a 12mm nut. I'd think your is the same as mine. loosen the tension/adjustment nut/bolt, loosen the tension/adjustment wing bolt, and loosen the 2 bottom compressor mounting bolts. that should loosen the compressor up so you can remove the belt.
> On Jun 16, 10:27 am, "Ray O" >> >> You should be able to replace the belt in a half our or hour or so. > > Heck I'm going on 2 hours of spraying and trying to just loosen the > compressor up without stripping the nut. Joe - 17 Jun 2007 02:15 GMT > you may need to loosen the compressor mounting bolts, in addition to the > tension/adjustment bolt. just loosening the tension/adjustment bolt may not > be good enough to loosen the compressor. > BTW, I just checked MY Previa and the tension/adjustment bolt is held on by > a 12mm nut. Mine is a 14 mm. An almost stripped 14 mm now. :( It just wont budge after 16 years of Minnesota. And I havent even seen the lower bolts yet, and its too dark to look anymore tonight. I might have to take the van in and have someone loosen those 3 for me.
The wingnut is behind the freaking hoses so its hard to get a grip on. It hasnt budged yet either, but I've been concentrating on stripping that other one.
I'd think your is the same as mine. loosen the
> tension/adjustment nut/bolt, loosen the tension/adjustment wing bolt, and > loosen the 2 bottom compressor mounting bolts. that should loosen the > compressor up so you can remove the belt. At least I know I can get the alternator bolt loose, I've had those loose before. If I can get to that point.
Bruce L. Bergman - 17 Jun 2007 03:52 GMT >> you may need to loosen the compressor mounting bolts, in addition to the >> tension/adjustment bolt. just loosening the tension/adjustment bolt may not [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >It hasnt budged yet either, but I've been concentrating on stripping >that other one. Get some good penetrant like Kano Labs "Kroil" or MARS Chemical "Rust Buster" (alcohol based, NSF Approved safe for use on food service equipment) and let it soak in overnight.
(WD-40 is NOT a proper penetrant in the class of a dedicated compound for the use, there are many better choices.)
If that doesn't work, find a way to get some spot heat on the bolt area and get it nice and toasty (electric heat gun for confined spaces on a car, NO OPEN FLAMES!) and hit it with the penetrant again, let the heat suck it into the threads.
Then wait some more and try it again.
Do NOT Try using pliers on that wingnut - if you put all the stress on one wing while turning, you'll just snap it off.
You can make a dedicated socket or tool for turning a wingnut with regular socket wrenches - the easy way is to take a socket and cut a slot through it with an abrasive chop saw or a hacksaw to fit over the wings. If that won't work and you have access to a welder and a little ingenuity, you can make a special socket just for wingnuts.
Once you get the old bolt out, go get a fresh one. And the wingnut can be replaced with a proper hex nut. Why go through this again?
--<< Bruce >>--
Joe - 17 Jun 2007 04:11 GMT On Jun 16, 9:52 pm, Bruce L. Bergman <blnospamberg...@earthlink.invalid> wrote:
> Once you get the old bolt out, go get a fresh one. And the wingnut > can be replaced with a proper hex nut. Why go through this again? > > --<< Bruce >>-- I got the wingnut loose finally. The tension nut is still stuck. Will get some P-fluid tomorrow, wd-40 is all I had and I'm miles from town. I cant get a belt until Monday so there's no hurry-except I leave x- country by Wed. ;-)
: P - 17 Jun 2007 08:16 GMT don't forget to use a 6 point socket instead of a 12 point. there may still be enough meat left on the nut for the 6 point socket to grab.
"Mine is a 14 mm."
you're right about the nut being 14mm. I didn't take a very close look and guessed the size by what I saw.
Ray O - 17 Jun 2007 14:53 GMT > On Jun 16, 10:27 am, "Ray O" >> >> You should be able to replace the belt in a half our or hour or so. > > Heck I'm going on 2 hours of spraying and trying to just loosen the > compressor up without stripping the nut. As Bruce says, use a penetrating oil made for loosening rusted bolts. Spray, tap the part lightly with a hammer, wait an hour or 2, and repeat every hour or 2 until the end of the day. Let is soak overnight, and repeat the process of spraying, tapping, and waiting. After a day or 2, you should be able to loosen the nut.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
nm5k@wt.net - 21 Jun 2007 08:35 GMT The problem with releasing refrigerant from the schrader valve is
> that even a small amount of refrigerant lost will diminish the AC's capacity > a little, and it is illegal to vent refrigerant to the atmosphere. When I say that, you don't let out enough to effect anything. Just quick enough to see if pressure or not. Very little will actually come out if you are fast. Technically, it probably would be considered illegal, but it's such a tiny amount I don't worry about it. You can just barely press it until you hear a hiss, and if you do, even slight, you are good to recharge. Course, if you push and hear nothing, keep pushing farther.. If still no hiss, Houston, we have a problem... :( The amount lost is probably less than the amount lost when unscrewing a set of gauges. MK
Ray O - 21 Jun 2007 15:48 GMT > The problem with releasing refrigerant from the schrader valve is >> that even a small amount of refrigerant lost will diminish the AC's [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > a set of gauges. > MK True, but I prefer recommending that people look at the sight glass - this is the method described in the factory repair manual, no refrigerant lost, and there is no question about whether you are breaking the law or not..;-)
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
nm5k@wt.net - 21 Jun 2007 22:10 GMT > <n...@wt.net> wrote in message
> True, but I prefer recommending that people look at the sight glass - this > is the method described in the factory repair manual, no refrigerant lost, > and there is no question about whether you are breaking the law or not..;-) > -- > > Ray O I do too, but you then have to the compressor running to see if it's got anything in it. Checking the valve will let you know before changing the belt, if adding a belt is even worth doing at that time.. Not much point if it's totally empty. They would probably be better off taking it to a shop, unless they have all the tools, etc. You can always use gauges to check an unrunning system to see if it has any pressure. Even a color code cheapy. And that would be legal. But, like I say, you will likely lose as much or more vapor just unscrewing the gauges as you will blipping the shrader valve for a second. Punching the valve will let them check it real fast without needing any gauges. You oughta see how much I blow out when disconnecting the high side of a residential unit, if not using a quick disconnect... I blow a bit of liquid, even unscrewing as fast as I can.. Usually burns the skin on my hand from the extreme low temps.. And what I'm doing in that case is legal. The amount lost punching a valve on a car is super tiny compared to that. It's not even near enough to have any effect on the system operation. But once running , I also think the sight glass is the best indicator. But many cars don't have a sight glass.. I'm not sure if my corolla does or not.. I haven't looked yet.. My accord has one.. But many brands don't have em.. IE: many U.S. vehicles go cheap and leave them off.. When I install new condensing units, I always add a sight glass along with the usual filter driers, etc.. I don't actually need it to charge, but it's nice to have the 2nd indication, and it's also handy for the homeowner as they can take a quick look at the glass and tell in a glance if they are low or not. It also gives a quick indication of moisture in the system, but the car glasses don't have that color indicator like the home versions do. MK
Ray O - 21 Jun 2007 22:29 GMT >> <n...@wt.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > don't have that color indicator like the home versions do. > MK Nice, logical explanation! Thanks for sharing your expertise and experience!
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Jeff Strickland - 16 Jun 2007 21:39 GMT For $30-ish, you can buy a can of R134a that has a guage on it that connects to the low pressure side of the system. Connect the fitting on the can of juice to the fitting on the vehicle, start the vehicle and set the A/C on. The can of juice should say that there is some amount of pressure (in pounds). If the pressure is low, the needle ought to move, but not high enough to make the system work. If the system has a leak so large as to make the needls not move at all, then I think you need professional service.
The system has a fail-safe built in. If the juice (R134a) is either too low or too high, thent he clutch will not operate, thusly the compressor is protected by the fail safe system. It is not necessarily a problem for the pressure to be too low because the juice can slowly seep out.
For $30-ish, you can add enough juice to jump start the system, and if it has a leak that is a problem so large that you need professional help, you will know in a matter of a few days (give or take). If it hasn't got a leak, then in a few days (give or take), the system will remain working and no further attention is necessary.
I have a '95 Bronco that the AC died a few weeks ago. It turned out that the juice had seeped out over a very long time (at least one year, and probably much more), and the pressure dropped below the minimum specification, activating the fail-safe device. I went to my local Autozone/Kragen/whatever is on the corner by my house and selected a couple of small cans of R134a. I have a very funky hose and guage that gives me the pressure information needed to perform reasonalby accurate charging of the system, and the two cans would have done the trick for me at a bit under $30. Then, I found a single large can that was the same as the two small cans, but it also included a handy hose and guage that is way better (easier to use) than the funky thing I have already. The large can with the guage was 2 or 3 dollars more than the pair of smaller cans, and the guage is way easier to use. As a bonus, the large can had directions that included an ambient temp chart that told how much juice to squirt into the system. As it turned out, all of the juice in the can was exactly the proper amount according to the chart printed ont he can. How easy is that?
> Can I test the ac in my Previa to see if it has any charge left, w/o > spending 175 bucks getting it done at Toyoya? My ac is down and out, > but I discovered the belt is broken and probably had been for some > time. I dont want to waste 2 hours putting it back in if the old ac is > leaking like a sieve Ray O - 17 Jun 2007 14:51 GMT > For $30-ish, you can buy a can of R134a that has a guage on it that > connects to the low pressure side of the system. Connect the fitting on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > large as to make the needls not move at all, then I think you need > professional service. I forget what year the OP's vehicle is, but DO NOT MIX R-12 and R-134-A!
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Joe - 17 Jun 2007 15:50 GMT > I forget what year the OP's vehicle is, but DO NOT MIX R-12 and R-134-A! > -- > > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) Well you are getting ahead, but thats the next question/problem. I called the dealoer that serviced the ac a few years ago, and they said they "probably" used 134. But there is no indication of that. The R-12 sticker is still there. There are no adapters or anything to indicate they didnt use R-12, except for the "probably" which doesnt instill a lot of confidence in me.
Ray O - 17 Jun 2007 15:57 GMT >> I forget what year the OP's vehicle is, but DO NOT MIX R-12 and R-134-A! >> -- [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > they didnt use R-12, except for the "probably" which doesnt instill a > lot of confidence in me. A sticker is supposed to be placed in an obvious place, like on the radiator support beam or the service ports, when a system is converted to 134. I would not bother topping off the system if you are not sure and just replace the belts.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Jeff Strickland - 17 Jun 2007 18:31 GMT >> For $30-ish, you can buy a can of R134a that has a guage on it that >> connects to the low pressure side of the system. Connect the fitting on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I forget what year the OP's vehicle is, but DO NOT MIX R-12 and R-134-A! Good call, Ray. I was thinking that there are not any Previas that use R12. But, if there are some then it is important to not mix the different kinds of "freon" (knowing that R134 isn't really freon).
Having made that point, it is good to note that the fittings on the different systems will not allow one to mix the chemicals.
Bruce L. Bergman - 17 Jun 2007 19:57 GMT >Good call, Ray. I was thinking that there are not any Previas that use R12. >But, if there are some then it is important to not mix the different kinds >of "freon" (knowing that R134 isn't really freon). Useful Aside: It's only 'Freon' if it is R-12 that was made by DuPont, just like it's only a 'Xerox Copy' if it was made on a Xerox Copier - it's a trademark.
Oh, and DuPont uses the 'Suva' trademark for their R-134a and other 'clean' refrigerants.
And 'Aspirin' is a trademark of Bayer A.G. for acetylsalicylic acid. But it started to fall into common use and Bayer didn't defend their trademark when it was infringed, so the courts ruled to turn aspirin into a generic term.
>Having made that point, it is good to note that the fittings on the >different systems will not allow one to mix the chemicals. The different fittings only make cross-contaminating the AC System more difficult, but certainly not impossible. The bulk cylinders and can tappers can use the standard 1/4" Flare connection or the R134a Acme style connector, adapters and hoses between the two fittings are readily available, and a clever idiot can still mix things up.
Then you get the ones that "convert the system" themselves leaving the old R-12 fittings and no outward signs of what they did. You can use Propane or any of a few dozen alternative refrigerants in the system, depending on what you have on hand.
There are a half dozen different "Replacement" blends for R-12 meant for commercial and mobile refrigeration and appliances, depending on the design thresholds of the system you are refilling. Some are compatible with mineral oil, some aren't and require a flush and fill with PAG or POE based oils - which may or may not have been done...
--<< Bruce >>--
Joe - 21 Jun 2007 03:05 GMT I had to take the van in to have the belt put on, and even they struggled mightily with it.
It blew some cold initially, but squealed around corners and occasionally when idling, just like it did with the old belt. I see a milky color whooshing past the inspection window, but I wouldnt call it foam. The left driver vent blows cold air and they get less cold to thr right. The right side passenger vent blows very slightly chilled air or even warm air. Fortunately I rarely have passengers in this car.
Diagnosis? Neither belt feels loose.
Bruce L. Bergman - 21 Jun 2007 04:25 GMT >I had to take the van in to have the belt put on, and even they >struggled mightily with it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >milky color whooshing past the inspection window, but I wouldnt call >it foam. The milky color /is/ foam - it's tiny bubbles of vapor refrigerant in the clear liquid refrigerant flowing by. If it was sufficiently charged, you'd see liquid flowing by with just enough little bubbles entrained in it to easily show the flow direction and speed.
Sounds like it's very low on refrigerant, or there's another problem like the condenser fan isn't coming on.
Squealing around corners could be the power steering pump belt slipping - is that on a separate belt from the AC?
> The left driver vent blows cold air and they get less cold to >thr right. The right side passenger vent blows very slightly chilled >air or even warm air. Fortunately I rarely have passengers in this >car. Hmmm... If it's barely working it's entirely possible for most of the cold to go to one side - the air would flow in a fairly laminar manner after getting "strained" through the fins of the heater core and the evaporator core, if the ductwork splits right after the evaporator core all the cold from the inlet side could easily be aimed at the duct outlet heading to the left vent...
I'd have to tear the heater box and ductwork apart to see if that's what could be happening with yours.
--<< Bruce >>--
Danny G. - 21 Jun 2007 21:20 GMT >>I had to take the van in to have the belt put on, and even they >>struggled mightily with it. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Sounds like it's very low on refrigerant, or there's another problem > like the condenser fan isn't coming on. --snip snip
It sounds like poor condenser air flow to me also. A easy way to check would be to see how the ac works at highway speeds.
Ray O - 21 Jun 2007 04:56 GMT >I had to take the van in to have the belt put on, and even they > struggled mightily with it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Diagnosis? Neither belt feels loose. When you depress the belt, it should not deflect more than about a half inch. Check the power steering fluid level. I suspect that the power steering belt is loose.
The milky stuff flowing past the inspection window is foam, indicating air in the system; it probably needs to be re-charged.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
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