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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / June 2007

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Previa ac test

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Joe - 16 Jun 2007 06:22 GMT
Can I test the ac in my Previa to see if it has any charge left, w/o
spending 175 bucks getting it done at Toyoya? My ac is down and out,
but I discovered the belt is broken and probably had been for some
time. I dont want to waste 2 hours putting it back in if the old ac is
leaking like a sieve
nm5k@wt.net - 16 Jun 2007 06:48 GMT
> Can I test the ac in my Previa to see if it has any charge left, w/o
> spending 175 bucks getting it done at Toyoya? My ac is down and out,
> but I discovered the belt is broken and probably had been for some
> time. I dont want to waste 2 hours putting it back in if the old ac is
> leaking like a sieve

You can't check the charge until it's running. The only thing you can
check is to see if it's totally empty, or still has some. Just punch
the valve pin and see if any pressure.
If it hasn't been out too long, a belt may be all you need.
If it's leaking fast, it won't have anything in it. But if it still
has refrigerent, if it has a leak, it's probably fairly small.
All you can do is get a new belt and go from there.
Hope your clutch didn't seaze, and thats why the belt is gone..
I've had that happen before in a chevy chevette. Put so much
squealing drag on the engine it killed it at stop lights..
I had to get out and cut it with a knife.
The longer it sits without working, the more likely you will
develop seal leaks, so I wouldn't wait too long to check it
out. You might get lucky and have the belt be the only
real problem. Might need a top off of refrigerent, but that
can be had for less than $175..
MK
Ray O - 16 Jun 2007 16:27 GMT
> Can I test the ac in my Previa to see if it has any charge left, w/o
> spending 175 bucks getting it done at Toyoya? My ac is down and out,
> but I discovered the belt is broken and probably had been for some
> time. I dont want to waste 2 hours putting it back in if the old ac is
> leaking like a sieve

As MK suggested, you need to have the belt installed to check the AC's
function.  The problem with releasing refrigerant from the schrader valve is
that even a small amount of refrigerant lost will diminish the AC's capacity
a little, and it is illegal to vent refrigerant to the atmosphere.

You should be able to replace the belt in a half our or hour or so.  With
the AC running, look at the sight glass on the receiver drier in front of
the condenser.  The receiver drier is a metal cylinder about the size of an
aerosol can with metal lines running in and out and a dime-sized glass
window on top.  With the AC running and he system fully charged, you should
see a clear liquid running past the glass.  If you see foam or nothing in
the sight glass, the system needs charging.  With the belt installed, if the
compressor is seized, you will hear a squeal, the system should shut itself
down, and the AC light on the dashboard should start blinking, indicating a
problem.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Joe - 16 Jun 2007 18:20 GMT
On Jun 16, 10:27 am, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom>
wrote:

> > Can I test the ac in my Previa to see if it has any charge left, w/o
> > spending 175 bucks getting it done at Toyoya? My ac is down and out,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> that even a small amount of refrigerant lost will diminish the AC's capacity
> a little, and it is illegal to vent refrigerant to the atmosphere.

Oops. Shhhhh. ;-)  I have good reason to believe I have some charge
left, but I would not break the law.

> You should be able to replace the belt in a half our or hour or so.

You overestimate me, but thanks.

With
> the AC running, look at the sight glass on the receiver drier in front of
> the condenser.  The receiver drier is a metal cylinder about the size of an
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> down, and the AC light on the dashboard should start blinking, indicating a
> problem.

OK, there WAS some squealing when the ac was still sort of working.
I say sort of because even after it was recharged 6-7 years ago it was
never very cold. It started squealing a couple years ago when I ran
the ac, then it stopped squealing (I think) last year. I took this to
be a good sign but it probably just meant the belt broke about then.

the belt pulley turn freely on the ac unit-does this mean the
compressor/clutch is probably OK?
Joe - 16 Jun 2007 18:26 GMT
I did another test. With the ac on, the belt wheel spins with the rest
of the  (whatever you call it) compressor drive when turned by hand.
When the ac is off, the belt wheel spins independently of the
compressor when turned by hand. I take this to mean the clutch is
good, because its engaging the two when turned on.
Ray O - 16 Jun 2007 19:23 GMT
>I did another test. With the ac on, the belt wheel spins with the rest
> of the  (whatever you call it) compressor drive when turned by hand.
> When the ac is off, the belt wheel spins independently of the
> compressor when turned by hand. I take this to mean the clutch is
> good, because its engaging the two when turned on.

Yes, the compressor clutch is working, and if you can turn the compressor by
hand, then it is not seized.  If you think your system is charged, install a
new belt and fire her up!
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Joe - 16 Jun 2007 19:32 GMT
> >I did another test. With the ac on, the belt wheel spins with the rest
> > of the  (whatever you call it) compressor drive when turned by hand.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)

And do I just take the alternator belt off and loosen the compressor
to install the ac belt, or is there a more involved procedure?
: P - 16 Jun 2007 19:46 GMT
"do I just take the alternator belt off and loosen the compressor
to install the ac belt"

yep
Ray O - 16 Jun 2007 20:00 GMT
>> >I did another test. With the ac on, the belt wheel spins with the rest
>> > of the  (whatever you call it) compressor drive when turned by hand.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> And do I just take the alternator belt off and loosen the compressor
> to install the ac belt, or is there a more involved procedure?

IIRC, all you have to do is remove the alternator belt, loosen the
compressor, and swap the belts.  Since you are going to have to remove the
alternator belt, you may want to replace it if it is over 60K miles.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Jeff Strickland - 16 Jun 2007 21:52 GMT
>>> >I did another test. With the ac on, the belt wheel spins with the rest
>>> > of the  (whatever you call it) compressor drive when turned by hand.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> compressor, and swap the belts.  Since you are going to have to remove the
> alternator belt, you may want to replace it if it is over 60K miles.

What Ray said, and more.

You mentioned that there was some squealing. This is a common ailment of a
loose belt, and generally is not a sign of more serious trouble.

As you replace the belts, you should be able to locate the adjustment
devices. Back in the earliest days of the Wheel, we had to pry the
adjustable pulley with one hand and tighten the locking nut with the other.
But these days, the belt adjustment is made by loosening a small lock nut
(typically 10mm) and adjusting a long screw in or out to make affect the
adjustment. I forget the proper spec (maybe Ray can help us out here), but
you should have about 1/2 inch of deflection at the center of the distance
between the pullies. Find a place between two pullies and press or pull the
belt. It should move about 1/2 inch with about 5 or 10 pounds of force.
(this is the part where Ray might have the actual figures.)

I also agree with Ray, you should go ahead and replace all of the belts.
Joe - 16 Jun 2007 22:42 GMT
On Jun 16, 10:27 am, "Ray O"

> You should be able to replace the belt in a half our or hour or so.

Heck I'm going on 2 hours of spraying and trying  to just loosen the
compressor up without stripping the nut.
: P - 17 Jun 2007 02:00 GMT
you may need to loosen the compressor mounting bolts, in addition to the
tension/adjustment bolt.  just loosening the tension/adjustment bolt may not
be good enough to loosen the compressor.
BTW, I just checked MY Previa and the tension/adjustment bolt is held on by
a 12mm nut.  I'd think your is the same as mine.  loosen the
tension/adjustment nut/bolt, loosen the tension/adjustment wing bolt, and
loosen the 2 bottom compressor mounting bolts.  that should loosen the
compressor up so you can remove the belt.

> On Jun 16, 10:27 am, "Ray O"
>>
>> You should be able to replace the belt in a half our or hour or so.
>
> Heck I'm going on 2 hours of spraying and trying  to just loosen the
> compressor up without stripping the nut.
Joe - 17 Jun 2007 02:15 GMT
> you may need to loosen the compressor mounting bolts, in addition to the
> tension/adjustment bolt.  just loosening the tension/adjustment bolt may not
> be good enough to loosen the compressor.
> BTW, I just checked MY Previa and the tension/adjustment bolt is held on by
> a 12mm nut.

Mine is a 14 mm. An almost stripped 14 mm now. :( It just wont budge
after 16 years of Minnesota. And I havent even seen the lower bolts
yet, and its too dark to look anymore tonight. I might have to take
the van in and have someone loosen those 3 for me.

The wingnut is behind the freaking hoses so its hard to get a grip on.
It hasnt budged yet either, but I've been concentrating on stripping
that other one.

I'd think your is the same as mine.  loosen the
> tension/adjustment nut/bolt, loosen the tension/adjustment wing bolt, and
> loosen the 2 bottom compressor mounting bolts.  that should loosen the
> compressor up so you can remove the belt.

At least I know I can get the alternator bolt loose, I've had those
loose before. If I can get to that point.
Bruce L. Bergman - 17 Jun 2007 03:52 GMT
>> you may need to loosen the compressor mounting bolts, in addition to the
>> tension/adjustment bolt.  just loosening the tension/adjustment bolt may not
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>It hasnt budged yet either, but I've been concentrating on stripping
>that other one.

 Get some good penetrant like Kano Labs "Kroil" or MARS Chemical
"Rust Buster" (alcohol based, NSF Approved safe for use on food
service equipment) and let it soak in overnight.

 (WD-40 is NOT a proper penetrant in the class of a dedicated
compound for the use, there are many better choices.)

 If that doesn't work, find a way to get some spot heat on the bolt
area and get it nice and toasty (electric heat gun for confined spaces
on a car, NO OPEN FLAMES!) and hit it with the penetrant again, let
the heat suck it into the threads.

 Then wait some more and try it again.

 Do NOT Try using pliers on that wingnut - if you put all the stress
on one wing while turning, you'll just snap it off.

 You can make a dedicated socket or tool for turning a wingnut with
regular socket wrenches - the easy way is to take a socket and cut a
slot through it with an abrasive chop saw or a hacksaw to fit over the
wings.  If that won't work and you have access to a welder and a
little ingenuity, you can make a special socket just for wingnuts.

 Once you get the old bolt out, go get a fresh one.  And the wingnut
can be replaced with a proper hex nut.  Why go through this again?

    --<< Bruce >>--
Joe - 17 Jun 2007 04:11 GMT
On Jun 16, 9:52 pm, Bruce L. Bergman
<blnospamberg...@earthlink.invalid> wrote:

>   Once you get the old bolt out, go get a fresh one.  And the wingnut
> can be replaced with a proper hex nut.  Why go through this again?
>
>      --<< Bruce >>--

I got the wingnut loose finally. The tension nut is still stuck. Will
get some P-fluid tomorrow, wd-40 is all I had and I'm miles from town.
I cant get a belt until Monday so there's no hurry-except I leave x-
country by Wed. ;-)
: P - 17 Jun 2007 08:16 GMT
don't forget to use a 6 point socket instead of a 12 point.  there may still
be enough meat left on the nut for the 6 point socket to grab.

"Mine is a 14 mm."

you're right about the nut being 14mm.  I didn't take a very close look and
guessed the size by what I saw.
Ray O - 17 Jun 2007 14:53 GMT
> On Jun 16, 10:27 am, "Ray O"
>>
>> You should be able to replace the belt in a half our or hour or so.
>
> Heck I'm going on 2 hours of spraying and trying  to just loosen the
> compressor up without stripping the nut.

As Bruce says, use a penetrating oil made for loosening rusted bolts.
Spray, tap the part lightly with a hammer, wait an hour or 2, and repeat
every hour or 2 until the end of the day.  Let is soak overnight, and repeat
the process of spraying, tapping, and waiting.  After a day or 2, you should
be able to loosen the nut.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

nm5k@wt.net - 21 Jun 2007 08:35 GMT
 The problem with releasing refrigerant from the schrader valve is
> that even a small amount of refrigerant lost will diminish the AC's capacity
> a little, and it is illegal to vent refrigerant to the atmosphere.

When I say that, you don't let out enough to effect anything. Just
quick
enough to see if pressure or not. Very little will actually come out
if you
are fast. Technically, it probably would be considered illegal, but
it's such a
tiny amount I don't worry about it. You can just barely press it until
you hear a hiss, and if you do, even slight, you are good to recharge.
Course, if you push and hear nothing, keep pushing farther.. If still
no hiss,
Houston, we have a problem... :(
The amount lost is probably less than the amount lost when unscrewing
a set of gauges.
MK
Ray O - 21 Jun 2007 15:48 GMT
>  The problem with releasing refrigerant from the schrader valve is
>> that even a small amount of refrigerant lost will diminish the AC's
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> a set of gauges.
> MK

True, but I prefer recommending that people look at the sight glass - this
is the method described in the factory repair manual, no refrigerant lost,
and there is no question about whether you are breaking the law or not..;-)
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

nm5k@wt.net - 21 Jun 2007 22:10 GMT
> <n...@wt.net> wrote in message

> True, but I prefer recommending that people look at the sight glass - this
> is the method described in the factory repair manual, no refrigerant lost,
> and there is no question about whether you are breaking the law or not..;-)
> --
>
> Ray O

I do too, but you then have to the compressor running to see if it's
got
anything in it. Checking the valve will let you know before changing
the
belt, if adding a belt is even worth doing at that time..
Not much point if it's totally empty. They would probably be better
off
taking it to a shop, unless they have all the tools, etc.
You can always use gauges to check an unrunning system to see if it
has any pressure. Even a color code cheapy. And that would be legal.
But, like I say, you will likely lose as much or more vapor just
unscrewing the gauges as you will blipping the shrader valve for a
second. Punching the valve will let them check it real fast without
needing any gauges.
You oughta see how much I blow out when disconnecting the high
side of a residential unit, if not using a quick disconnect...
I blow a bit of liquid, even unscrewing as fast as I can.. Usually
burns the skin on my hand from the extreme low temps..
And what I'm doing in that case is legal.  The amount lost punching
a valve on a car is super tiny compared to that. It's not even near
enough to have any effect on the system operation.
But once running , I also think the sight glass is the best indicator.
But many cars don't have a sight glass.. I'm not sure if my corolla
does or not.. I haven't looked yet.. My accord has one..
But many brands don't have em.. IE: many U.S. vehicles go cheap
and leave them off..
When I install new condensing units, I always add a sight glass
along with the usual filter driers, etc.. I don't actually need it to
charge, but it's nice to have the 2nd indication, and it's also
handy for the homeowner as they can take a quick look at
the glass and tell in a glance if they are low or not. It also gives
a quick indication of moisture in the system, but the car glasses
don't have that color indicator like the home versions do.
MK
Ray O - 21 Jun 2007 22:29 GMT
>> <n...@wt.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> don't have that color indicator like the home versions do.
> MK

Nice, logical explanation!  Thanks for sharing your expertise and
experience!
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Jeff Strickland - 16 Jun 2007 21:39 GMT
For $30-ish, you can buy a can of R134a that has a guage on it that connects
to the low pressure side of the system. Connect the fitting on the can of
juice to the fitting on the vehicle, start the vehicle and set the A/C on.
The can of juice should say that there is some amount of pressure (in
pounds). If the pressure is low, the needle ought to move, but not high
enough to make the system work. If the system has a leak so large as to make
the needls not move at all, then I think you need professional service.

The system has a fail-safe built in. If the juice (R134a) is either too low
or too high, thent he clutch will not operate, thusly the compressor is
protected by the fail safe system. It is not necessarily a problem for the
pressure to be too low because the juice can slowly seep out.

For $30-ish, you can add enough juice to jump start the system, and if it
has a leak that is a problem so large that you need professional help, you
will know in a matter of a few days (give or take). If it hasn't got a leak,
then in a few days (give or take), the system will remain working and no
further attention is necessary.

I have a '95 Bronco that the AC died a few weeks ago. It turned out that the
juice had seeped out over a very long time (at least one year, and probably
much more), and the pressure dropped below the minimum specification,
activating the fail-safe device. I went to my local Autozone/Kragen/whatever
is on the corner by my house and selected a couple of small cans of R134a. I
have a very funky hose and guage that gives me the pressure information
needed to perform reasonalby accurate charging of the system, and the two
cans would have done the trick for me at a bit under $30. Then, I found a
single large can that was the same as the two small cans, but it also
included a handy hose and guage that is way better (easier to use) than the
funky thing I have already. The large can with the guage was 2 or 3 dollars
more than the pair of smaller cans, and the guage is way easier to use. As a
bonus, the large can had directions that included an ambient temp chart that
told how much juice to squirt into the system. As it turned out, all of the
juice in the can was exactly the proper amount according to the chart
printed ont he can. How easy is that?

> Can I test the ac in my Previa to see if it has any charge left, w/o
> spending 175 bucks getting it done at Toyoya? My ac is down and out,
> but I discovered the belt is broken and probably had been for some
> time. I dont want to waste 2 hours putting it back in if the old ac is
> leaking like a sieve
Ray O - 17 Jun 2007 14:51 GMT
> For $30-ish, you can buy a can of R134a that has a guage on it that
> connects to the low pressure side of the system. Connect the fitting on
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> large as to make the needls not move at all, then I think you need
> professional service.

I forget what year the OP's vehicle is, but DO NOT MIX R-12 and R-134-A!
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Joe - 17 Jun 2007 15:50 GMT
> I forget what year the OP's vehicle is, but DO NOT MIX R-12 and R-134-A!
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)

Well you are getting ahead, but thats the next question/problem. I
called the dealoer that serviced the ac a few years ago, and they said
they "probably" used 134. But there is no indication of that. The R-12
sticker is still there. There are no adapters or anything to indicate
they didnt use R-12, except for the "probably" which doesnt instill a
lot of confidence in me.
Ray O - 17 Jun 2007 15:57 GMT
>> I forget what year the OP's vehicle is, but DO NOT MIX R-12 and R-134-A!
>> --
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> they didnt use R-12, except for the "probably" which doesnt instill a
> lot of confidence in me.

A sticker is supposed to be placed in an obvious place, like on the radiator
support beam or the service ports, when a system is converted to 134.  I
would not bother topping off the system if you are not sure and just replace
the belts.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Jeff Strickland - 17 Jun 2007 18:31 GMT
>> For $30-ish, you can buy a can of R134a that has a guage on it that
>> connects to the low pressure side of the system. Connect the fitting on
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I forget what year the OP's vehicle is, but DO NOT MIX R-12 and R-134-A!

Good call, Ray. I was thinking that there are not any Previas that use R12.
But, if there are some then it is important to not mix the different kinds
of "freon" (knowing that R134 isn't really freon).

Having made that point, it is good to note that the fittings on the
different systems will not allow one to mix the chemicals.
Bruce L. Bergman - 17 Jun 2007 19:57 GMT
>Good call, Ray. I was thinking that there are not any Previas that use R12.
>But, if there are some then it is important to not mix the different kinds
>of "freon" (knowing that R134 isn't really freon).

 Useful Aside: It's only 'Freon' if it is R-12 that was made by
DuPont, just like it's only a 'Xerox Copy' if it was made on a Xerox
Copier - it's a trademark.

 Oh, and DuPont uses the 'Suva' trademark for their R-134a and other
'clean' refrigerants.

 And 'Aspirin' is a trademark of Bayer A.G. for acetylsalicylic acid.
But it started to fall into common use and Bayer didn't defend their
trademark when it was infringed, so the courts ruled to turn aspirin
into a generic term.

>Having made that point, it is good to note that the fittings on the
>different systems will not allow one to mix the chemicals.

 The different fittings only make cross-contaminating the AC System
more difficult, but certainly not impossible.  The bulk cylinders and
can tappers can use the standard 1/4" Flare connection or the R134a
Acme style connector, adapters and hoses between the two fittings are
readily available, and a clever idiot can still mix things up.

 Then you get the ones that "convert the system" themselves leaving
the old R-12 fittings and no outward signs of what they did.  You can
use Propane or any of a few dozen alternative refrigerants in the
system, depending on what you have on hand.

 There are a half dozen different "Replacement" blends for R-12 meant
for commercial and mobile refrigeration and appliances, depending on
the  design thresholds of the system you are refilling.  Some are
compatible with mineral oil, some aren't and require a flush and fill
with PAG or POE based oils - which may or may not have been done...

  --<< Bruce >>--
Joe - 21 Jun 2007 03:05 GMT
I had to take the van in to have the belt put on, and even they
struggled mightily with it.

It blew some cold initially, but squealed around corners and
occasionally when idling, just like it did with the old belt. I see a
milky color whooshing past the inspection window, but  I wouldnt call
it foam. The left driver vent blows cold air and they get less cold to
thr right. The right side passenger vent blows very slightly chilled
air or even warm air. Fortunately I rarely have passengers in this
car.

Diagnosis? Neither belt feels loose.
Bruce L. Bergman - 21 Jun 2007 04:25 GMT
>I had to take the van in to have the belt put on, and even they
>struggled mightily with it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>milky color whooshing past the inspection window, but  I wouldnt call
>it foam.

 The milky color /is/ foam - it's tiny bubbles of vapor refrigerant
in the clear liquid refrigerant flowing by.  If it was sufficiently
charged, you'd see liquid flowing by with just enough little bubbles
entrained in it to easily show the flow direction and speed.

 Sounds like it's very low on refrigerant, or there's another problem
like the condenser fan isn't coming on.

 Squealing around corners could be the power steering pump belt
slipping - is that on a separate belt from the AC?

> The left driver vent blows cold air and they get less cold to
>thr right. The right side passenger vent blows very slightly chilled
>air or even warm air. Fortunately I rarely have passengers in this
>car.

 Hmmm...  If it's barely working it's entirely possible for most of
the cold to go to one side - the air would flow in a fairly laminar
manner after getting "strained" through the fins of the heater core
and the evaporator core, if the ductwork splits right after the
evaporator core all the cold from the inlet side could easily be aimed
at the duct outlet heading to the left vent...

 I'd have to tear the heater box and ductwork apart to see if that's
what could be happening with yours.

    --<< Bruce >>--
Danny G. - 21 Jun 2007 21:20 GMT
>>I had to take the van in to have the belt put on, and even they
>>struggled mightily with it.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>  Sounds like it's very low on refrigerant, or there's another problem
> like the condenser fan isn't coming on.

--snip snip

It sounds like poor condenser air flow to me also.
A easy way to check would be to see how the ac works at highway speeds.
Ray O - 21 Jun 2007 04:56 GMT
>I had to take the van in to have the belt put on, and even they
> struggled mightily with it.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Diagnosis? Neither belt feels loose.

When you depress the belt, it should not deflect more than about a half
inch.  Check the power steering fluid level.  I suspect that the power
steering belt is loose.

The milky stuff flowing past the inspection window is foam, indicating air
in the system; it probably needs to be re-charged.
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Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

 
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