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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / August 2007I don't get putting new tires on rear axle
I understand the concept that understeer (loss of traction of front tires) is easier to recover than oversteer (loss of traction of rear tires), so please don't try to explain that concept. I have read this article: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52 My issue is this: Yes, I agree that putting new tires on rear axle will reduce the probability of oversteer initially. But what happens when you rotate your tires after 5000 miles? The difference in wear will be even greater! (Since the old tires at the front will wear faster than the new tires at the rear). Therefore, it will be even more dangerous after rotation compared to just putting new tires on the front. > I understand the concept that understeer (loss of traction of front > tires) is easier to recover than oversteer (loss of traction of rear [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > more dangerous after rotation compared to just putting new tires on > the front. New tires are usually mounted on the drive axle. They usually take the most wear and tear. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish worrying about over steer and under steer? Are you experiencing this on your vehicle that is used for normal driving, or competition? I guess you could buy new tires instead of rotation. If you're racing. > New tires are usually mounted on the drive axle. They usually take the > most wear and tear. I'm in complete agreement with you. But I just replaced a pair of tires at Costco (the old ones were in the front), and they have a policy that they will not install a pair of new tires on the front. They must install the new pair on the rear and rotate the old ones to the front. They even had a video to show why new tires on rear was dangerous. They said their policy did not allow a car to leave their garage with new tires on the rear, but that I could rotate them myself afterwards. Must be some liability issue. > I'm in complete agreement with you. But I just replaced a pair of > tires at Costco (the old ones were in the front), and they have a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > garage with new tires on the rear, but that I could rotate them myself > afterwards. Must be some liability issue. Could you review your post? I think you made a mistake and it is causing a lot of confusion. > Could you review your post? I think you made a mistake and it is causing a > lot of confusion. sorry, i meant to say: "They said their policy did not allow a car to leave their garage with new tires on the FRONT" That's odd, I never heard of this yet. maybe its just to trick you into buying 4 new tires instead of 2 = ) So did you put the new tires in front by yourself? > "They said their policy did not allow a car to leave their garage with > new tires on the FRONT" > That's odd, I never heard of this yet. maybe its just to trick you > into buying 4 new tires instead of 2 = ) > > So did you put the new tires in front by yourself? Michelin did a study on this years ago and everyone seems to have believed it. Maybe they are the ones who are trying to sell 4 ties. Discount Tires will warn you about it, but they will put the new ones on the front if you insist. > Michelin did a study on this years ago and everyone seems to have believed > it. Maybe they are the ones who are trying to sell 4 ties. Yeah, I did more research, and it seems like the tire manufacturers all strongly recommend this. Yet in the car owner's manual, it says nothing about this. Neither does a long NHTSA article about tire safety: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/TireSafety/ridesonit/brochure.html I think the biggest hole with the new tires on rear axle strategy is what you're going to do when it's time to rotate the tires, because the situation will be even worse. Of course, the tire manufacturers' solution is to buy a new pair of tires. > Yeah, I did more research, and it seems like the tire manufacturers > all strongly recommend this. Yet in the car owner's manual, it says [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the situation will be even worse. Of course, the tire manufacturers' > solution is to buy a new pair of tires. My solution is to go to Discount Tire, where they let you decide. >I understand the concept that understeer (loss of traction of front >tires) is easier to recover than oversteer (loss of traction of rear [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >more dangerous after rotation compared to just putting new tires on >the front. Huhhh? Think about what the front and rear tires do. Then ask yourself if you want the best traction on the front or back and install the new tires there. Don't worry about what some guy sitting at a computer word processor has to say. Chances are, he doesn't know anymore about cars than you or I. Wet traction has more to do with tire inflation pressure and tread design than tread depth. But regardless of the design or pressure, all tires will hydroplane at some speed or other. It happens when the force needed to move the water our of the way exceeds the force exerted by the weight supported by the tire. Jack --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000762-2, 07/30/2007 Tested on: 7/30/2007 9:56:43 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com > Think about what the front and rear tires do. Then ask yourself if > you want the best traction on the front or back and install the new > tires there. I agree with you. See my reply to Ph@Boy. "Bucky" ... >I understand the concept that understeer (loss of traction of front > tires) is easier to recover than oversteer (loss of traction of rear [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > more dangerous after rotation compared to just putting new tires on > the front. I have never heard of a place insisting on this. I always put the new 2 tires on the drive axle. I want the best tires doing the most active work. Tomes >I understand the concept that understeer (loss of traction of front > tires) is easier to recover than oversteer (loss of traction of rear [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > more dangerous after rotation compared to just putting new tires on > the front. I think the assumption when replacing only 2 tires is that the owner did not rotate them frequently enough for all 4 tires to wear evenly, so the owner is not likely to rotate the replacement tires either.  SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) "Ray O" ... > "Bucky" ... >>I understand the concept that understeer (loss of traction of front [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > not rotate them frequently enough for all 4 tires to wear evenly, so the > owner is not likely to rotate the replacement tires either. Which is what I do. I do not rotate and they always seem to wear evenly, I just go front to back when I get the new set of 2 on the front. Works for me. Tomes >I understand the concept that understeer (loss of traction of front > tires) is easier to recover than oversteer (loss of traction of rear [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > more dangerous after rotation compared to just putting new tires on > the front. I got the same story when I bought 2 new michelins at costco a few months ago. They refused to put them on the front, which is where I wanted them. Told me it was "dangerous" and against their policy. So I let them put the new ones on the back (using the front rims), and just switched them when I got home. I generally buy tires in 2s, and *always* put the new tires in front. In my opinion, the most dangerous tire failure you can have is a blowout, and while rear blowouts are not fun, front blowouts can be catastrophic. And you're less likely to experience a blowout with new tires. Personally, I think the lawyers are running this, to reduce likelihood of litigation in case of a failure. So much for customer service. /M >I got the same story when I bought 2 new michelins at costco a few months >ago. They refused to put them on the front, which is where I wanted them. >Told me it was "dangerous" and against their policy. So I let them put the >new ones on the back (using the front rims), and just switched them when I >got home. Bingo - The tires on my work van are cupping and heel-wearing bad because of "Twin I-Beam Disease" and Costco won't balance and rotate, even if I can get some more life out of them - they want me to buy a new set right now. >I generally buy tires in 2s, and *always* put the new tires in front. In my >opinion, the most dangerous tire failure you can have is a blowout, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Personally, I think the lawyers are running this, to reduce likelihood of >litigation in case of a failure. So much for customer service. Costco is letting Michelin tell them how to run their tire shops for maximum income (always sell new, refuse to touch any old cars or less than perfect tires) and minimum liability exposure. I follow the Federal Truck Rules - you always put premium tires on the steer axle, recapped or re-grooved tires are strictly verboten, not even "blems" with a little wrinkle in the sidewall... They will let you run recaps regrooves or seconds on the drive axles, the trailer or the tag axles of a tractor-trailer, anywhere OTHER than the steer axle. Loss of control is the last thing you want, and a steer axle tire coming apart has a much higher potential for loss of control and a really bad outcome. I WANT the cheesy tires on the back if they come apart. I'm going to have to pay a bit more to go back to a real tire store because the Pointy-Haired Boss type Manglement fools at Costco seem to have forgotten Rule #1: "The Customer Is Always Right." (Even when they aren't - that's Rule #2.) I asked about ordering in some Special Trailer tires for one of my utility trailers - "They aren't for a car or light truck" so they won't order or mount them. Asked about tires for my Corvair if I un-mothball it - If the vehicle is over 12 years old and they've never worked on it before it hit 12, they can't touch it. What the F*** is up with them? --<< Bruce >>-- > "Moro Grubb of Little Delving" > >Personally, I think the lawyers are running this, to reduce likelihood of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the steer axle, recapped or re-grooved tires are strictly verboten, > not even "blems" with a little wrinkle in the sidewall... Which also makes sense when you think about the Michelin hydroplaning arguement: what they miss in their little writeup is the simple fact that most of the time, we're driving our cars in a straight line, not around a short radius skid oval. As such, the tires behind the first set are travelling down the section of road that just had most of the water pushed out of the way by the front wheels. As such, it is the *front* axle that is always most prone to hydroplaning, virtually regardless of axle loads, which is why it needs the best tread even without considering the fact that it is also always the source of steering control. > I asked about ordering in some Special Trailer tires for one of my > utility trailers - "They aren't for a car or light truck" so they [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > vehicle is over 12 years old and they've never worked on it before it > hit 12, they can't touch it. What the F*** is up with them? Its merely a profit maximization strategy: they'd rather move 100 high volume mindless "slap em on" sales and their attitude is that they won't make any money on the 5% of specialty/niche, so those customers can go pound sand. For anyone who hopes to someday have a non-boring car, this is why it pays today to go support your small local high quality tire specialist, to help keep them in business despite the 'big box' stores. -hh >>I got the same story when I bought 2 new michelins at costco a few months >>ago. They refused to put them on the front, which is where I wanted them. [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > --<< Bruce >>-- I haven't bought tires at a big box store for years. Too much bull. If I want that much bull, I can buy it in 40 lb sacks at Wal-Mart. Charles of Schaumburg |
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