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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / August 2007

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Check Engine Light on a 98 Toyota Corolla

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C Yohman - 04 Aug 2007 15:49 GMT
I went to VIP yesterday to get its serpentine belt replaced and its
check engine light diagnosed.

The three codes that came back were:
PO 120: Throttle / Pedal Position switch A circuit
PO 441: Evap Purge Flow
PO 446: Evap Vent Control

According to the VIP employee, I will probably just fail inspection.
Of course, fumes could start leaking into the compartment. I have not
smelled anything yet. Then again, it could be carbon monoxide. I also
drove the car 400 miles round trip from Maine to Vermont two weeks
ago. I have the luxury of walking to work during the week.

I am interested in being pointed to a resource on the codes,
perspectives on them, or any other opinions on them. The three
alternatives that come to mind (I'm sure there are more) are:

1) Ignore the light. Do nothing until the car stops working. This is
probably unwise, but worked for 2-3 weeks and is still working.

2) Buy a diagnostic tool (I've heard these range from $50-$200) and
monitor the codes on a weekly basis. If nothing changes, then I am
compelled to do nothing.

3) Take it to a Toyota dealer as the VIP employee recommended, have
them find the leak and fix it. My main concern is, what is the
estimated cost of fixing those problems?

I welcome all feedback appreciatively.
Jeff Strickland - 04 Aug 2007 16:24 GMT
>I went to VIP yesterday to get its serpentine belt replaced and its
> check engine light diagnosed.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> PO 441: Evap Purge Flow
> PO 446: Evap Vent Control

P0441 and P0446 are the Evaporative Emissions Control System, this is
gasoline fumes that escape from the fuel system tothe outside. There are
other hardware issues int he system that can cause these codes, and they can
be posted to the computer a very long time ago, or they could be posted
yesterday. The strategy I would use is to keep them on your list and reset
the computer so the codes go away. Make sure you do not stuff an extra few
gallons of gas into the tank on your fill ups, and make sure you screw the
gas cap on tightly -- make it click a few times if it has a ratechet
mechanism.

There is no chance that you are being exposed to carbon monoxide. Well,
there is always that chance I suppose, but these codes are not the warning
signs.

Before you start throwing bundles of twenties at your car, I suggest that if
you have no symptoms that translate through to Drivability Issues -- you are
not noticing any change in performance -- then keep the list of codes you
have downloaded, then if the light comes on again, pull another list then
take steps to repair items that appear on both lists. I'll go out on a limb
here, I think you will be needing a Throttle Position Sensor -- the likely
source of the P0120 code.

Your car is OBD II compliant, this means you can buy the test equipment that
pulls codes and resets the computer -- erases the codes that are present.
Alternatively, you can visit Autozone parts stores, or other auto parts
stores that offer Loaner Tool Programs, and use their loaner scan tool for
free. The data port in your car is located along the bottom of the dash
board in the vicinity of where your left knee rests as you drive the car.
The directions on pulling codes are clearly indicated on the scan tool.
There is no reason anybody that knows how to raise the hood and find the
headlight bulbs can not operate the machine used to pull codes. If you elect
to buy the scan tool, they are available at pretty much any auto parts store
and they are on eBay all of the time. There are several models and run in a
price range of $60ish for the cheapest and $150ish of the best. I suggest
one in the middle of the price points, about $75ish, if you will be doing
your own servicing. If you are the sort that pays a mechanic, then you can
get by with the lower cost model. It will pull codes and give a readout, and
let you reset the computer. As you climb the price ladder, you get more
features and functions. Read the boxes for details.

<snip rest>
mack - 04 Aug 2007 20:11 GMT
> "C Yohman" <chance.yohman@gmail.com> wrote in message news

I'll go along with Jeff in his suggestion that you make sure your gas cap is
REALLY tight, by ratcheting it a few times extra, and driving it a couple of
weeks to see if the light goes off.   It's a common problem and has happened
to me....and cost me an hour's labor ($88) to tell me to tighten the gas
cap.
C Yohman - 05 Aug 2007 18:11 GMT
Thanks mack & Jeff. Jeff, can you give me the name of a specific model
that will pull the codes and reset the computer?

> > "C Yohman" <chance.yoh...@gmail.com> wrote in message news
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to me....and cost me an hour's labor ($88) to tell me to tighten the gas
> cap.
Jeff Strickland - 05 Aug 2007 18:42 GMT
There are several brands, ACTRON is one. Actron has (I think) 4 different
models ranging in price from about $60 to $150. A quick search on eBay for
OBD II spit out a list of 442 hits for various makes and models.

Personally, I'd look at the eBay hits, then drive down to the corner to buy
one. This is the sort of thing that demands I get to touch and feel. Maybe
go to the corner and get your touch-and-feel fix out of the way, then come
back home and get on eBay again ... If I was buying one of these, I think
I'd be looking at the mid-price range instead of either end of the scale.
The cheapest unit would leave me wondering if I really wish I had more
features and functions, the high end models would give me more than I would
use.

If you have an Autozone store, or any store that has a Loaner Tool program,
then you can use a scan tool -- probably the most basic one -- to get a feel
for what it offers.

I own an Actron unit for my OBD I '95 Bronco. It seems like a good unit, and
it lead me to a faulty fuel pump without any trouble. My Bronco roared to
life one day, then immediately died. The scan tool said the pump was toast.
Sure enough, it was.

> Thanks mack & Jeff. Jeff, can you give me the name of a specific model
> that will pull the codes and reset the computer?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> to me....and cost me an hour's labor ($88) to tell me to tighten the gas
>> cap.
Bonehenge (B A R R Y) - 05 Aug 2007 22:26 GMT
>If you have an Autozone store, or any store that has a Loaner Tool program,
>then you can use a scan tool -- probably the most basic one -- to get a feel
>for what it offers.

Lots of the consumer auto parts stores will send a person out to the
lot to read the code while you wait.
Jeff Strickland - 05 Aug 2007 23:09 GMT
>>If you have an Autozone store, or any store that has a Loaner Tool
>>program,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Lots of the consumer auto parts stores will send a person out to the
> lot to read the code while you wait.

That's true, except in California. They are not allowed to pull codes at the
parts store because the store deprives the mechanic of income he might
otherwise receive. Some judge somewhere agreed with a mechanic that the
store pulling codes for free kept him from making a living. (Yes, I'm
scratching my head on that one too.) The same judge said that the consumer
should be able to pull his own codes though because that is one of the main
reasons for OBD II over OBD I -- pulling codes in OBD I was difficult, and
was made easier by OBD II. In any case, in California, the owner/operator of
the vehicle has to pull codes, but the store lets him or her use the code
reader for free.
Jeff - 05 Aug 2007 23:19 GMT
>>> If you have an Autozone store, or any store that has a Loaner Tool
>>> program,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> California, the owner/operator of the vehicle has to pull codes, but the
> store lets him or her use the code reader for free.

Gee, I didn't know I owed anyone a living or anyone owed me a living.

I do have to say I think that the OBDIII standard or whatever is next
should include a USB connector and open-source software to read the
codes and other information available.

Add that to wireless internet connections, and we would really be  able
to diagnose and understand things.

Jeff
Bonehenge (B A R R Y) - 06 Aug 2007 00:04 GMT
> In any case, in California, the owner/operator of
>the vehicle has to pull codes, but the store lets him or her use the code
>reader for free.

I didn't know that.  Thanks!
Mike - 06 Aug 2007 22:41 GMT
And to add my 2c:

I would suggest to use Q-tip, spread 2-3 oil drops on gas cap gasket,
fill the tank, "make sure your gas cap is

REALLY tight, by ratcheting it a few times extra, and drive it a couple of
weeks to see if the light goes off."

Good luck,
Mike

>  
>> "C Yohman" <chance.yohman@gmail.com> wrote in message news
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to me....and cost me an hour's labor ($88) to tell me to tighten the gas
> cap.
Ray O - 07 Aug 2007 05:57 GMT
> And to add my 2c:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Good luck,
> Mike

Not bad advice, but that won't make the OP's check engine light turn off.
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Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Jeff Strickland - 07 Aug 2007 16:12 GMT
>> And to add my 2c:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Not bad advice, but that won't make the OP's check engine light turn off.

I would forcebly turn the light off -- using the scan tool -- then wait to
see if it comes on again, then use the scan tool again to find out why, then
fix that reason.

The trouble with the codes puled so far is that they can come as the result
of transient problems. If the problem is a bonafied problem, the light will
return soon, if the problem is transient, the light is not likely to return.

The most troubling code I've seen from this poster is the one about the
throttle sensor.
Ray O - 08 Aug 2007 05:24 GMT
>>> And to add my 2c:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> light will return soon, if the problem is transient, the light is not
> likely to return.

That is like clearing an EKG when someone is in the early stages of a heart
attack to see if a real heart attack develops.

IIRC, P0120 is set if a problem is detected once, while P0441 and P0446 have
2-trip detection logic - that is, the problem has to be present on 2
consecutive trips in order to illuminate the malfunction indicator light,
AKA "check engine light."

> The most troubling code I've seen from this poster is the one about the
> throttle sensor.

Pun intended?

I believe that the OP has 2 problems to diagnose - TOPS and a VS. for the
evaporative emissions system.

Since I spent a pretty fair amount of time visiting dealers in New England,
I can recommend some good ones ;-)
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Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

C Yohman - 13 Aug 2007 14:40 GMT
Where do I find the OBD II connector or would one of the devices I buy
have instructions on how to connect it? I don't mind buying one,
because I'm a techie and I like toys. Also, I would buy a cable to
hook my laptop up to it, but my laptop does not have a serial port. :\
Ray O - 14 Aug 2007 06:35 GMT
> Where do I find the OBD II connector or would one of the devices I buy
> have instructions on how to connect it? I don't mind buying one,
> because I'm a techie and I like toys. Also, I would buy a cable to
> hook my laptop up to it, but my laptop does not have a serial port. :\

The OBD II connector is under the driver's side of the dashboard.  The port
looks like the port for a parallel printer cable.

If you want to get one to hook up to your laptop, autotap.com has a scanner
that hooks to a computer's USB  port.  OBD II software that runs on the
laptop is great if you know how to interpret the signals from a particular
sensor and know if the signals are in or out of spec.

The hardware will have instructions on how to connect it, but it is very
simple.  Plug the device cable into the OBD II port and turn the ignition
switch to the on position.

Signature

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

C Yohman - 14 Aug 2007 15:48 GMT
Thanks. I noticed a  port marked "Diagnostic" underneath my hood last
nite. Is that something else? The connector underneath the dashboard
seems tricky. Do I have to pry pieces away? Thanks.

> > Where do I find the OBD II connector or would one of the devices I buy
> > have instructions on how to connect it? I don't mind buying one,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)
Ray O - 15 Aug 2007 02:24 GMT
> Thanks. I noticed a  port marked "Diagnostic" underneath my hood last
> nite. Is that something else? The connector underneath the dashboard
> seems tricky. Do I have to pry pieces away? Thanks.

The diagnostic connector under the hood is for stuff like checking ignition
timing.

The connector under the dashboard is the one for the OBD II scanner.  The
connector shsould  be very straightforward; sometimes it is under the cover
with the fuse panel.
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Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

>> > Where do I find the OBD II connector or would one of the devices I buy
>> > have instructions on how to connect it? I don't mind buying one,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>> Ray O
>> (correct punctuation to reply)
C Yohman - 15 Aug 2007 14:41 GMT
Thanks.
Ray O - 16 Aug 2007 05:44 GMT
> Thanks.

You're welcome!
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

C Yohman - 27 Aug 2007 20:43 GMT
"The most troubling code I've seen from this poster is the one about
the
throttle sensor. "

Jeff, what's the worst that could happen with the "Throttle / Pedal
Position switch A circuit "? In your opinion, what's the more pressing
matter- rear struts or the circuit? Thanks.
Cathy F. - 05 Aug 2007 18:43 GMT
>I went to VIP yesterday to get its serpentine belt replaced and its
> check engine light diagnosed.
<snipped>
> I welcome all feedback appreciatively.

When my "check engine" light came on in my '98 Corolla, it had a very simple
solution: the gas cap wasn't on tight enough.  Make sure it's on tightly -
until you hear it click, & see if that happens to take care of it.

Cathy
C Yohman - 05 Aug 2007 19:46 GMT
Thanks again to everyone. :)

> >I went to VIP yesterday to get its serpentine belt replaced and its
> > check engine light diagnosed.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Cathy
Ray O - 06 Aug 2007 03:41 GMT
>I went to VIP yesterday to get its serpentine belt replaced and its
> check engine light diagnosed.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> I welcome all feedback appreciatively.

Do not take the advice of anyone who tells you to replace a part without
first checking the part because they generally have only a rudimentary
understanding of automotive systems.  Proper diagnostic procedure it to
CHECK the part before replacing it, or you may end up wasting a lot of
money, and IMO, VIP did you a favor by not attempting to diagnose something
they are not capable of diagnosing.

All 3 codes can probably be diagnosed in an hour or less at a Toyota dealer,
and they generally will apply the diagnostic fee towards the repair if you
have it done.  Your car will not pass an emissions inspection with the check
engine light illuminated so you need to get the problem fixed before you
take it in for an inspection.

I don't recommend investing in a code scanner if you are not familiar with
automotive systems.  They will give you codes but they will not tell you how
to check a component or tell you if a component is working properly or not.
For example, do you know what a throttle position sensor is, what its
function is, where it is on the car, and how to test if it is good or not?
If you are fairly handy, you can invest in a Haynes or Chilton's repair
manual, or if you are more than fairly handy, you should invest in the
factory service manual.  You can get some basic repair procedures at
www.autozone.com
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Ray O
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larry moe 'n curly - 06 Aug 2007 08:26 GMT
> Do not take the advice of anyone who tells you to replace a part without
> first checking the part because they generally have only a rudimentary
> understanding of automotive systems.

I had experience with a garage that didn't understand the problem but
attempted to fix it anyway.  My company car started to always
hesistate on acceleration, which I thought was due to a weak fuel
pump, clogged filter, or bad pressure regulator.  I wanted to take it
to the leasing dealership for repair, but the new manager insisted on
using a nearby Pep Boys instead.  They scanned for error codes, did a
tune-up, put in new plugs, wires, cap, and rotor and wound up fixing
nothing.  The mechanic who worked on the car didn't seem to understand
when I asked him if there were any abnormal computer readings that
didn't generate error codes because  he said that if no codes were
generated, it meant there were no abnormal readings.   I wasn't
allowed to take the car to the dealer until I got a refund from Pep
Boys, but fortunately they refunded the charges with hardly any
argument.  The dealer said that the car needed a new fuel pump, and
that made the hesitation go away.  .
Ray O - 07 Aug 2007 06:03 GMT
>> Do not take the advice of anyone who tells you to replace a part without
>> first checking the part because they generally have only a rudimentary
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> argument.  The dealer said that the car needed a new fuel pump, and
> that made the hesitation go away.  .

I doubt if a mechanic working at Pep Boys would be able to interpret the raw
readings from the sensors and computer, even if they had the proper
equipment to do so.  He is correct that in that if there are no error codes,
then there will not be any abnormal readings, since abnormal readings is
what sets error codes.

The primary function of the check engine light is to warn drivers that an
emission control system is not working properly, and there are systems in
the car that, when malfunctioning, can cause noise or drivability problems
without making the car out of compliance with emissions.  The fuel pump and
fuel pressure regulator are an example, as is the starter.  To diagnose the
fuel pump problem, a technician would have to connect a fuel pressure gauge
to measure fuel pressure, measure fuel pump delivery volume, check voltage
at the fuel pump, and then check to see if the fuel pump operates when
voltage is applied.
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Ray O
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