Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / August 2007
Check Engine Light on a 98 Toyota Corolla
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C Yohman - 04 Aug 2007 15:49 GMT I went to VIP yesterday to get its serpentine belt replaced and its check engine light diagnosed.
The three codes that came back were: PO 120: Throttle / Pedal Position switch A circuit PO 441: Evap Purge Flow PO 446: Evap Vent Control
According to the VIP employee, I will probably just fail inspection. Of course, fumes could start leaking into the compartment. I have not smelled anything yet. Then again, it could be carbon monoxide. I also drove the car 400 miles round trip from Maine to Vermont two weeks ago. I have the luxury of walking to work during the week.
I am interested in being pointed to a resource on the codes, perspectives on them, or any other opinions on them. The three alternatives that come to mind (I'm sure there are more) are:
1) Ignore the light. Do nothing until the car stops working. This is probably unwise, but worked for 2-3 weeks and is still working.
2) Buy a diagnostic tool (I've heard these range from $50-$200) and monitor the codes on a weekly basis. If nothing changes, then I am compelled to do nothing.
3) Take it to a Toyota dealer as the VIP employee recommended, have them find the leak and fix it. My main concern is, what is the estimated cost of fixing those problems?
I welcome all feedback appreciatively.
Jeff Strickland - 04 Aug 2007 16:24 GMT >I went to VIP yesterday to get its serpentine belt replaced and its > check engine light diagnosed. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > PO 441: Evap Purge Flow > PO 446: Evap Vent Control P0441 and P0446 are the Evaporative Emissions Control System, this is gasoline fumes that escape from the fuel system tothe outside. There are other hardware issues int he system that can cause these codes, and they can be posted to the computer a very long time ago, or they could be posted yesterday. The strategy I would use is to keep them on your list and reset the computer so the codes go away. Make sure you do not stuff an extra few gallons of gas into the tank on your fill ups, and make sure you screw the gas cap on tightly -- make it click a few times if it has a ratechet mechanism.
There is no chance that you are being exposed to carbon monoxide. Well, there is always that chance I suppose, but these codes are not the warning signs.
Before you start throwing bundles of twenties at your car, I suggest that if you have no symptoms that translate through to Drivability Issues -- you are not noticing any change in performance -- then keep the list of codes you have downloaded, then if the light comes on again, pull another list then take steps to repair items that appear on both lists. I'll go out on a limb here, I think you will be needing a Throttle Position Sensor -- the likely source of the P0120 code.
Your car is OBD II compliant, this means you can buy the test equipment that pulls codes and resets the computer -- erases the codes that are present. Alternatively, you can visit Autozone parts stores, or other auto parts stores that offer Loaner Tool Programs, and use their loaner scan tool for free. The data port in your car is located along the bottom of the dash board in the vicinity of where your left knee rests as you drive the car. The directions on pulling codes are clearly indicated on the scan tool. There is no reason anybody that knows how to raise the hood and find the headlight bulbs can not operate the machine used to pull codes. If you elect to buy the scan tool, they are available at pretty much any auto parts store and they are on eBay all of the time. There are several models and run in a price range of $60ish for the cheapest and $150ish of the best. I suggest one in the middle of the price points, about $75ish, if you will be doing your own servicing. If you are the sort that pays a mechanic, then you can get by with the lower cost model. It will pull codes and give a readout, and let you reset the computer. As you climb the price ladder, you get more features and functions. Read the boxes for details.
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mack - 04 Aug 2007 20:11 GMT > "C Yohman" <chance.yohman@gmail.com> wrote in message news I'll go along with Jeff in his suggestion that you make sure your gas cap is REALLY tight, by ratcheting it a few times extra, and driving it a couple of weeks to see if the light goes off. It's a common problem and has happened to me....and cost me an hour's labor ($88) to tell me to tighten the gas cap.
C Yohman - 05 Aug 2007 18:11 GMT Thanks mack & Jeff. Jeff, can you give me the name of a specific model that will pull the codes and reset the computer?
> > "C Yohman" <chance.yoh...@gmail.com> wrote in message news > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to me....and cost me an hour's labor ($88) to tell me to tighten the gas > cap. Jeff Strickland - 05 Aug 2007 18:42 GMT There are several brands, ACTRON is one. Actron has (I think) 4 different models ranging in price from about $60 to $150. A quick search on eBay for OBD II spit out a list of 442 hits for various makes and models.
Personally, I'd look at the eBay hits, then drive down to the corner to buy one. This is the sort of thing that demands I get to touch and feel. Maybe go to the corner and get your touch-and-feel fix out of the way, then come back home and get on eBay again ... If I was buying one of these, I think I'd be looking at the mid-price range instead of either end of the scale. The cheapest unit would leave me wondering if I really wish I had more features and functions, the high end models would give me more than I would use.
If you have an Autozone store, or any store that has a Loaner Tool program, then you can use a scan tool -- probably the most basic one -- to get a feel for what it offers.
I own an Actron unit for my OBD I '95 Bronco. It seems like a good unit, and it lead me to a faulty fuel pump without any trouble. My Bronco roared to life one day, then immediately died. The scan tool said the pump was toast. Sure enough, it was.
> Thanks mack & Jeff. Jeff, can you give me the name of a specific model > that will pull the codes and reset the computer? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> to me....and cost me an hour's labor ($88) to tell me to tighten the gas >> cap. Bonehenge (B A R R Y) - 05 Aug 2007 22:26 GMT >If you have an Autozone store, or any store that has a Loaner Tool program, >then you can use a scan tool -- probably the most basic one -- to get a feel >for what it offers. Lots of the consumer auto parts stores will send a person out to the lot to read the code while you wait.
Jeff Strickland - 05 Aug 2007 23:09 GMT >>If you have an Autozone store, or any store that has a Loaner Tool >>program, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Lots of the consumer auto parts stores will send a person out to the > lot to read the code while you wait. That's true, except in California. They are not allowed to pull codes at the parts store because the store deprives the mechanic of income he might otherwise receive. Some judge somewhere agreed with a mechanic that the store pulling codes for free kept him from making a living. (Yes, I'm scratching my head on that one too.) The same judge said that the consumer should be able to pull his own codes though because that is one of the main reasons for OBD II over OBD I -- pulling codes in OBD I was difficult, and was made easier by OBD II. In any case, in California, the owner/operator of the vehicle has to pull codes, but the store lets him or her use the code reader for free.
Jeff - 05 Aug 2007 23:19 GMT >>> If you have an Autozone store, or any store that has a Loaner Tool >>> program, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > California, the owner/operator of the vehicle has to pull codes, but the > store lets him or her use the code reader for free. Gee, I didn't know I owed anyone a living or anyone owed me a living.
I do have to say I think that the OBDIII standard or whatever is next should include a USB connector and open-source software to read the codes and other information available.
Add that to wireless internet connections, and we would really be able to diagnose and understand things.
Jeff
Bonehenge (B A R R Y) - 06 Aug 2007 00:04 GMT > In any case, in California, the owner/operator of >the vehicle has to pull codes, but the store lets him or her use the code >reader for free. I didn't know that. Thanks!
Mike - 06 Aug 2007 22:41 GMT And to add my 2c:
I would suggest to use Q-tip, spread 2-3 oil drops on gas cap gasket, fill the tank, "make sure your gas cap is
REALLY tight, by ratcheting it a few times extra, and drive it a couple of weeks to see if the light goes off."
Good luck, Mike
> >> "C Yohman" <chance.yohman@gmail.com> wrote in message news [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to me....and cost me an hour's labor ($88) to tell me to tighten the gas > cap. Ray O - 07 Aug 2007 05:57 GMT > And to add my 2c: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Good luck, > Mike Not bad advice, but that won't make the OP's check engine light turn off.
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Jeff Strickland - 07 Aug 2007 16:12 GMT >> And to add my 2c: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Not bad advice, but that won't make the OP's check engine light turn off. I would forcebly turn the light off -- using the scan tool -- then wait to see if it comes on again, then use the scan tool again to find out why, then fix that reason.
The trouble with the codes puled so far is that they can come as the result of transient problems. If the problem is a bonafied problem, the light will return soon, if the problem is transient, the light is not likely to return.
The most troubling code I've seen from this poster is the one about the throttle sensor.
Ray O - 08 Aug 2007 05:24 GMT >>> And to add my 2c: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > light will return soon, if the problem is transient, the light is not > likely to return. That is like clearing an EKG when someone is in the early stages of a heart attack to see if a real heart attack develops.
IIRC, P0120 is set if a problem is detected once, while P0441 and P0446 have 2-trip detection logic - that is, the problem has to be present on 2 consecutive trips in order to illuminate the malfunction indicator light, AKA "check engine light."
> The most troubling code I've seen from this poster is the one about the > throttle sensor. Pun intended?
I believe that the OP has 2 problems to diagnose - TOPS and a VS. for the evaporative emissions system.
Since I spent a pretty fair amount of time visiting dealers in New England, I can recommend some good ones ;-)
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C Yohman - 13 Aug 2007 14:40 GMT Where do I find the OBD II connector or would one of the devices I buy have instructions on how to connect it? I don't mind buying one, because I'm a techie and I like toys. Also, I would buy a cable to hook my laptop up to it, but my laptop does not have a serial port. :\
Ray O - 14 Aug 2007 06:35 GMT > Where do I find the OBD II connector or would one of the devices I buy > have instructions on how to connect it? I don't mind buying one, > because I'm a techie and I like toys. Also, I would buy a cable to > hook my laptop up to it, but my laptop does not have a serial port. :\ The OBD II connector is under the driver's side of the dashboard. The port looks like the port for a parallel printer cable.
If you want to get one to hook up to your laptop, autotap.com has a scanner that hooks to a computer's USB port. OBD II software that runs on the laptop is great if you know how to interpret the signals from a particular sensor and know if the signals are in or out of spec.
The hardware will have instructions on how to connect it, but it is very simple. Plug the device cable into the OBD II port and turn the ignition switch to the on position.
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C Yohman - 14 Aug 2007 15:48 GMT Thanks. I noticed a port marked "Diagnostic" underneath my hood last nite. Is that something else? The connector underneath the dashboard seems tricky. Do I have to pry pieces away? Thanks.
> > Where do I find the OBD II connector or would one of the devices I buy > > have instructions on how to connect it? I don't mind buying one, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Ray O > (correct punctuation to reply) Ray O - 15 Aug 2007 02:24 GMT > Thanks. I noticed a port marked "Diagnostic" underneath my hood last > nite. Is that something else? The connector underneath the dashboard > seems tricky. Do I have to pry pieces away? Thanks. The diagnostic connector under the hood is for stuff like checking ignition timing.
The connector under the dashboard is the one for the OBD II scanner. The connector shsould be very straightforward; sometimes it is under the cover with the fuse panel.
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>> > Where do I find the OBD II connector or would one of the devices I buy >> > have instructions on how to connect it? I don't mind buying one, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> Ray O >> (correct punctuation to reply) C Yohman - 15 Aug 2007 14:41 GMT Thanks.
Ray O - 16 Aug 2007 05:44 GMT > Thanks. You're welcome!
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C Yohman - 27 Aug 2007 20:43 GMT "The most troubling code I've seen from this poster is the one about the throttle sensor. "
Jeff, what's the worst that could happen with the "Throttle / Pedal Position switch A circuit "? In your opinion, what's the more pressing matter- rear struts or the circuit? Thanks.
Cathy F. - 05 Aug 2007 18:43 GMT >I went to VIP yesterday to get its serpentine belt replaced and its > check engine light diagnosed. <snipped>
> I welcome all feedback appreciatively. When my "check engine" light came on in my '98 Corolla, it had a very simple solution: the gas cap wasn't on tight enough. Make sure it's on tightly - until you hear it click, & see if that happens to take care of it.
Cathy
C Yohman - 05 Aug 2007 19:46 GMT Thanks again to everyone. :)
> >I went to VIP yesterday to get its serpentine belt replaced and its > > check engine light diagnosed. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Cathy Ray O - 06 Aug 2007 03:41 GMT >I went to VIP yesterday to get its serpentine belt replaced and its > check engine light diagnosed. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > I welcome all feedback appreciatively. Do not take the advice of anyone who tells you to replace a part without first checking the part because they generally have only a rudimentary understanding of automotive systems. Proper diagnostic procedure it to CHECK the part before replacing it, or you may end up wasting a lot of money, and IMO, VIP did you a favor by not attempting to diagnose something they are not capable of diagnosing.
All 3 codes can probably be diagnosed in an hour or less at a Toyota dealer, and they generally will apply the diagnostic fee towards the repair if you have it done. Your car will not pass an emissions inspection with the check engine light illuminated so you need to get the problem fixed before you take it in for an inspection.
I don't recommend investing in a code scanner if you are not familiar with automotive systems. They will give you codes but they will not tell you how to check a component or tell you if a component is working properly or not. For example, do you know what a throttle position sensor is, what its function is, where it is on the car, and how to test if it is good or not? If you are fairly handy, you can invest in a Haynes or Chilton's repair manual, or if you are more than fairly handy, you should invest in the factory service manual. You can get some basic repair procedures at www.autozone.com
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larry moe 'n curly - 06 Aug 2007 08:26 GMT > Do not take the advice of anyone who tells you to replace a part without > first checking the part because they generally have only a rudimentary > understanding of automotive systems. I had experience with a garage that didn't understand the problem but attempted to fix it anyway. My company car started to always hesistate on acceleration, which I thought was due to a weak fuel pump, clogged filter, or bad pressure regulator. I wanted to take it to the leasing dealership for repair, but the new manager insisted on using a nearby Pep Boys instead. They scanned for error codes, did a tune-up, put in new plugs, wires, cap, and rotor and wound up fixing nothing. The mechanic who worked on the car didn't seem to understand when I asked him if there were any abnormal computer readings that didn't generate error codes because he said that if no codes were generated, it meant there were no abnormal readings. I wasn't allowed to take the car to the dealer until I got a refund from Pep Boys, but fortunately they refunded the charges with hardly any argument. The dealer said that the car needed a new fuel pump, and that made the hesitation go away. .
Ray O - 07 Aug 2007 06:03 GMT >> Do not take the advice of anyone who tells you to replace a part without >> first checking the part because they generally have only a rudimentary [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > argument. The dealer said that the car needed a new fuel pump, and > that made the hesitation go away. . I doubt if a mechanic working at Pep Boys would be able to interpret the raw readings from the sensors and computer, even if they had the proper equipment to do so. He is correct that in that if there are no error codes, then there will not be any abnormal readings, since abnormal readings is what sets error codes.
The primary function of the check engine light is to warn drivers that an emission control system is not working properly, and there are systems in the car that, when malfunctioning, can cause noise or drivability problems without making the car out of compliance with emissions. The fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator are an example, as is the starter. To diagnose the fuel pump problem, a technician would have to connect a fuel pressure gauge to measure fuel pressure, measure fuel pump delivery volume, check voltage at the fuel pump, and then check to see if the fuel pump operates when voltage is applied.
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