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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / August 2007T is # 6 in reliability survey
#1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> <mike@nosam.org> ... > #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey > WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> I assume you're being facetious, and that you know Lexus *is* Toyota, right? :) That aside, JDP is well known as being very heavily subjective. But I believe some Buicks are exceptionally good cars - just too large for my taste. Natalie > #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey > WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> No, Lexus has always had better specifications. Now let's see how that survey is measured. Fact: Buick owners, pretty much old people who don't drive much, don't complain about their cars and don't come back to fix things that were f.cked up from the factory. All they're measuring is the owner's response about the car. When you've driven it 500 miles in a year, you don't have any complaints. > Fact: Buick owners, pretty much old people who don't drive much, don't > complain about their cars and don't come back to fix things that were > f.cked up from the factory. > > All they're measuring is the owner's response about the car. When > you've driven it 500 miles in a year, you don't have any complaints. Not to mention that Buick now has very few models to choose from, most of which don't sell in high numbers anyway. >> #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey >> WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > All they're measuring is the owner's response about the car. When > you've driven it 500 miles in a year, you don't have any complaints. You described my 80 year old mother, white hair and drives a Buick, the ones that drive 28 mph in a 45 mph speed zone. Maybe it was the marketing from back in the 30's or 40's ? The old people seem to like those Buicks. In mom's case the dealer takes care of her, but she wasn't very happy about the plastic intake manifold that started leaking, I think it was about 1K to get it fixed, so what did she do when she needed a new car? She bought another Buick. > In article <3menb3tpvr9mfvd12b7e55qenj56pp65k3@4ax.com>, > mike@nosam.org [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No, Lexus has always had better specifications. The one specification that mostly distingushes a Lexus from a Toyota is cost. Read the road test results sometime. There is little difference in measurable items for related cars (Camry / ES350 for one). > Now let's see how that survey is measured. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > were > f.cked up from the factory. I can't speak about all Lexus owners, but most of the ones I know are the same sort of people who used to buy Buicks and Cadillacs. I've been near the Raleigh Lexus dealer early in the morning, and the parking lot is jammed with cars waiting for serrvice, so I am alway skeptical when I am told how relaible Lexus are. > All they're measuring is the owner's response about the car. When > you've driven it 500 miles in a year, you don't have any complaints. So how about the gray haired old ladies that buy Camrys? Is Toyota getting the same sort of "boost" in statistics from them? Ed >>> #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey >>> WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > jammed with cars waiting for serrvice, so I am alway skeptical when I am > told how relaible Lexus are. It's also possible they're there for simple oil & filter changes, & the major scheduled maintenance events. Cathy >>>> #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey >>>> WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Cathy That's the case at the Toyota dealer. I've only had routine service done and, as far as I could tell, everybody else who brought their car in went into the waiting room to wait because all they wanted was an oil change and it wasn't going to take long. The cashier kept calling people and handing over keys every few minutes.  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> I can't speak about all Lexus owners, but most of the ones I know are the >> same sort of people who used to buy Buicks and Cadillacs. I've been near [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Cathy Good call, Cathy. Way to put that insipid troll in his place. > It's also possible they're there for simple oil & filter changes, & > the major scheduled maintenance events. > > Cathy I am sure that is true. But why isn't it true at the Honda place next door? The waiting line at the Honda dealer only had a fraction of the number of cars waiting for service that were waiting at the Lexus dealer. I'll bet the Honda dealer has sold at least 10 times as many cars as the Lexus dealer. It may well be that Lexus owners are much more likely to take their cars back to the dealer for routine maintenance compared to Honda owners, but 10 times as likely? On the other hand, the BMW dealer (also in the same line of dealers) had cars pouring in like rain, but then BMWs owners get 3 years maintenance included in the purchase price. Maybe the Lexus dealer includes free maintenance in the deal as well - I don't know. I just know there were an awful lot of cars waiting for service of some kind, compared to the number of Lexi I see on the street. One thing I have heard about the Lexus dealer was that they would actually come to your house and pick up your car for routine maintenance and leave you a loaner. I can't imagine how much this must cost, but it sure seems nice. On the other hand, the little garage near my Mom's will do the same thing - even if you own a Chevrolet (well except for the loaner part). Ed I owned a half dozen Lexus LSs, great cars but the dealers suck, they act like they are doing you a favor buy letting you buy a Lexus and charging $110 shop rate for service. That was one reason I switched to a domestic brand in 1999. It soon became apparent that the domestic luxury brand I started to buy was just as good, but many thousands less to buy and replace. Not only that, I am saving hundreds a year or service as well. Thank you Mr. Lexus dealer LOL mike >> It's also possible they're there for simple oil & filter changes, & the >> major scheduled maintenance events. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Ed >>> #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey >>> WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cost. Read the road test results sometime. There is little difference in > measurable items for related cars (Camry / ES350 for one). But isn't that the only related car? (We'll leave the trucks aside, the Lexus truck is a LandCruiser or Sequoia, IIRC). As far as I can see, Toyota's car lineup is all FWD and, except for the ES350, isn't the rest of the Lexus line RWD (AWD optional)? At that, it makes sense for Lexus to offer one FWD car for customers that prefer FWD. In the past, too, the Camry-based Lexus had an engine that was not available on the Toyota. I'm not sure if that's presently the case or not, Edmunds says the 3.5L Lexus engine has a little more power than the 3.5L Toyota engine - could just be chipped differently. http://cartalkandnews.blogspot.com/ Look for the part titled, "Obsession Builds Perfection at Lexus." Never mind Cadillac, I doubt that Mercedes manufacturing is anything like that. I doubt that they get quite so carried away with the ES350 but I wouldn't doubt that they put enough extra into it to make it, unquestionably, better than a Camry. A dark blue IS250 zipped by us on the freeway the other day. "Oooh," said my wife, "that's a nice-looking car." I thought so, too. It's about the least-expensive Lexus you can get and it's certainly not a Corolla clone. RWD, 6-spd stick, 2.5L V6 engine, leather interior standard... Jeepers, I hope I'm not talking myself into one... Can't afford that! >> Now let's see how that survey is measured. >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Ed Not if Toyota owner demographics are really different. I recall a joke that started making the rounds a few years ago... "Cadillac is concerned that the average age of a Cadillac buyer is 60, whereas the average age of a Lincoln buyer is 52. Of course, this isn't quite the problem Buick has, as the average age of a Buick buyer is DEAD." I think I heard that from Jay Leno. And the average age of a Buick buyer was, really, way up there. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>> #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey >>>> WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > But isn't that the only related car? (We'll leave the trucks aside, the > Lexus truck is a LandCruiser or Sequoia, IIRC). The LX470 is based on the same chassis as the Land Cruiser. The IS, GS, and GS sold in the U.S. do not share a chassis with Toyotas sold in the U.S. > As far as I can see, Toyota's car lineup is all FWD and, except for the > ES350, isn't the rest of the Lexus line RWD (AWD optional)? At that, it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not, Edmunds says the 3.5L Lexus engine has a little more power than the > 3.5L Toyota engine - could just be chipped differently. AFAIK, the ES has always shared the V6 with the Camry. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>> #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey >>> WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cost. Read the road test results sometime. There is little difference in > measurable items for related cars (Camry / ES350 for one). The other difference between Lexus and Toyota, besides equipment levels, is the amount of sound insulation. Lexus dealers tend to be more adept at keeping customers happy than Toyota dealers, and GM dealers have been ahead of Toyota in this department for some time. While dealer treatment is not supposed to be a part of the survey, I think explanations to customers have a pretty big impact on customer satisfaction with their vehicle. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey > WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> The JD Power survey only records defects reported in the first 100 days of ownership. It goes no further than that. Buick owners are not likely to put on much more than 24 miles during those first three months (12 to church, 12 to the grocery store). How many things will go wrong in 24 miles? And Lexus is a Toyota brand name. Lexi are all Toyota, through and through. SignatureTegger >> #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey >> WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > And Lexus is a Toyota brand name. Lexi are all Toyota, through and > through. Actually, this was the long term dependability survey - problems reported in the previous 12 months after 3 years. Ironically, some of the domestic cars that did well on the survey have been discontinued - Century, Regal, Sable, Olds Bravada, Olds Silhouette, Mercury Monterrey, Thunderbird. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > The JD Power survey only records defects reported in the first 100 > days of > ownership. It goes no further than that. The survey being reference is the 2007 Vehicle Dependability Study (See http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2007130 ) . This study "is based on responses from more than 53,000 original owners of 2004 model-year vehicles. The study was fielded from January through April 2007." > Buick owners are not likely to put on much more than 24 miles during > those > first three months (12 to church, 12 to the grocery store). How many > things > will go wrong in 24 miles? This of course is total BS. You have no idea of the relative usage of Buicks and Lexi. > And Lexus is a Toyota brand name. Lexi are all Toyota, through and > through. Well except there are some Lexus models that have no Toyota equivalent sold in the US. I agree with your basic premise. There is no reason for Lexi to be significantly more dependable than Toyotas, or for Buicks to be more reliable than Pontiacs, or Mercurys to be more reliable than Fords. This supports my feeling that there is very little difference in the dependability of any of the major makes. When you are splitting hairs, small things, like the owner's preconceived biases, can effect the results. Ed >> The JD Power survey only records defects reported in the first 100 >> days of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > original owners of 2004 model-year vehicles. The study was fielded > from January through April 2007." So I was wrong. Shoulda checked first, no? >> Buick owners are not likely to put on much more than 24 miles during >> those [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > This of course is total BS. You have no idea of the relative usage of > Buicks and Lexi. T'was a joke, mein Herr. Buicks are also your basic salesman's car. Some of them put on huge mileages. >> And Lexus is a Toyota brand name. Lexi are all Toyota, through and >> through. > > Well except there are some Lexus models that have no Toyota equivalent > sold in the US. I agree with your basic premise. There is no reason > for Lexi to be significantly more dependable than Toyotas, Most of the mechanical parts are common to Toyota and Lexus (engines, transmissions, brakes, suspensions, steering, etc). That's the important part and is how Toyota keeps costs down. It's also what gets them in trouble when something goes wrong. *Everybody* gets afflicted. > or for > Buicks to be more reliable than Pontiacs, or Mercurys to be more > reliable than Fords. This supports my feeling that there is very > little difference in the dependability of any of the major makes. These days that's probably true. But when I read statements from working techs that "even a pit crew" couldn't keep some of these things on the road, I'm inclined to have a different view. > When you are splitting hairs, small things, like the owner's > preconceived biases, can effect the results. What can also have a profound effect is what sort of vehicle the parts are installed in. The same engine installed in a truck and a luxury car is unlikely to have the same longevity in both places. A vehicle owned by a young kid is not likely to receive the sort of gentle treament a retiree will give it, even with identical mechanicals. SignatureTegger >> The JD Power survey only records defects reported in the first 100 days >> of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of 2004 model-year vehicles. The study was fielded from January through > April 2007." I didn't go back and look at the Lexus models for 2004 but in 2004, except for the Rendezvous, Buick seemed to be selling cars that had been in production for at least 5 years each (and in the case of the Park Ave, 10?). I would hope that, after 5+ years of practice, Buick would be building a *really* good car. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > I didn't go back and look at the Lexus models for 2004 but in 2004, > except for the Rendezvous, Buick seemed to be selling cars that had [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I would hope that, after 5+ years of practice, Buick would be > building a *really* good car. Couldn't you make the same sort of argument about many Toyota products? Ed > #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey > WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> Buick #1??? Yeah, right. Someone obviously got paid off. >> #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey >> WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> > > Buick #1??? Yeah, right. Someone obviously got paid off. You have to love Toyota apologist. Buick has always done well in the surveys. And I've always thought they did well (relative to other GM brands) because the owners bought the advertising BS. Of course I think exactly the same thing about Lexus owners. Ed > #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey > WTF is going on. Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> To me the most significant thing about the latest JD Power survey is the trivial difference in most makes. I doubt that the difference in the top 10 or 15 are statistically significant, especially when you factory in the effect that the owner's perception has on the results. Ed On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 01:12:27 +0000, mike wrote: > #1 was Buick and Lexus per JD Powers reliability survey WTF is going on. > Some of us thought T was #1. <GRIN> Buick builds a fraction of the cars Toyota does. If you were to look at GM rather than Buick, I think you would see that, as a whole, GM rates lower than Toyota. What did it say about Chevrolet? Since Toyota builds 90% of it's cars under the Toyota brand, there is a larger sampling. GM probably only builds 1/6 of it's cars under the Buick brand. Also, Toyota has had to ramp up production to meet demand. Their 'failure rate' is probably the same or near what it has always been, but with more units coming off production lines, there are more 'lemons' getting out there. They could probably cut this by closing the North American assembly plants... > On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 01:12:27 +0000, mike wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > They could probably cut this by closing the North American assembly > plants... Be careful what you wish for... I don't think it's Toyota's NA plants, I think it's probably Toyota's NA suppliers. That is reputed to be the situation with the early, apparently troublesome 6-speed transmissions (no link handy, take with grain of salt). There's nothing wrong with the capability of American workmanship but the priorities assigned usually preclude a quality job. Earlier today, I posted a link and a note about Lexus' obsession with perfection. Notice that? That's not in NA but who's to say it couldn't be? Also, with the falling dollar, we may well be Toyota's low-cost manufacturing center. For that reason, I don't think they'll close plants but they may decrease production a bit if NA demand falls off. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> Also, Toyota has had to ramp up production to meet demand. Their >> 'failure rate' is probably the same or near what it has always been, but [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > troublesome 6-speed transmissions (no link handy, take with grain of > salt). Yes, actually, you are probably correct, especially since Toyota USA and Canada uses a LOT of Delco parts. You would think that, rather than Toyota using Delco parts, GM would learn from Chrysler... While doing some heavy-looking-on while my friend's son in law was fixing his Jeep, I noticed, first, the same transmission that I have in my Supra, and a number of NipponDenso parts under the hood, the most glaring one, the same alternator as in my old Celica... However, the first US Camry I drove, with <100 miles on it back in '99, the window fell off when I tried to put it down. > I don't think it's Toyota's NA plants, I think it's probably > Toyota's NA suppliers. That is reputed to be the situation with the > early, apparently troublesome 6-speed transmissions (no link handy, > take with grain of salt). Isn't the problem with the 6 speed automatic transmission PCM programming? Ford is using a version of this same transmission in V-6 Fusions and I've not seen any complaints about it in that application. And since the transmission is built by a mostly owned Toyota subsidiary, isn't it still a "Toyota" problem? Ed >> I don't think it's Toyota's NA plants, I think it's probably Toyota's NA >> suppliers. That is reputed to be the situation with the early, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ed Sure, but they don't fabricate all the parts themselves. But the focus was on Hachi's speculation about closing down Toyota NA plants (presumably moving production back to Japan) to fix quality issues. I would not expect that. Given proper priorites, training and resources, US workers will build to the same quality spec as anyone else (we do it). If Toyota's methods or priorities are poor, workers in Japan won't do any better. Local management can make a difference but it's probably easier to "fix" local management (and I don't mean fire them but help them) than close a plant. If it was a supplier issue, perhaps work is being done to fix purchasing (or incoming QA assurance, depending on how they're organized) at the NA plants. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com 6 spd AND the 5 spd found on the Camry 4 cyl are also used on the Fusion?? > Isn't the problem with the 6 speed automatic transmission PCM > programming? Ford is using a version of this same transmission in V-6 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ed >6 spd AND the 5 spd found on the Camry 4 cyl are also used on the > Fusion?? Just the 6 speed I think. I believe the 5 speed automatic is a Ford of Europe product (but I am not sure). The 6 speed in the "new" <cough> Ford Taurus (and the Edge and the Lincoln MKZ and MKX) is not the same as used in the Fusion. It is a new Ford built transmission that came out of the GM/Ford collaboration. Interestingly, the Taurus with the 3.5L V-6 and Ford 6 Speed Automatic gets better fuel economy than the Fusion with the 3.0L V-6 and Aisin 6 speed (at least in EPA tests). Ed >> Isn't the problem with the 6 speed automatic transmission PCM >> programming? Ford is using a version of this same transmission in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Ed The is the result of having the proper amount of torque at the proper RPMs, something the Japs have yet to figure out how to do ;) mike >>6 spd AND the 5 spd found on the Camry 4 cyl are also used on the >> Fusion?? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >>> >>> Ed > The is the result of having the proper amount of torque at the > proper RPMs, something the Japs have yet to figure out how to do > ;) > > mike I guess Ford hasn't figured it out either then. Ed > >>6 spd AND the 5 spd found on the Camry 4 cyl are also used on the > >> Fusion?? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ford 6 Speed Automatic gets better fuel economy than the Fusion with the > > 3.0L V-6 and Aisin 6 speed (at least in EPA tests). > The is the result of having the proper amount of torque at the proper RPMs, > something the Japs have yet to figure out how to do ;) You whore. Does the Sienna and Camry 07 use the same 5 spd A/T transmission? > Just the 6 speed I think. I believe the 5 speed automatic is a Ford of > Europe product (but I am not sure). The 6 speed in the "new" <cough> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ed |
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