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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / August 2007any comp nerds in here?
Quick question... we have verizon fios as our internet service.. we want to be able to run our laptops with wifi when were around the house.. or in the living room, or in the woodshop... any idea on the best product out there? the highest grade? and can i get it to work with fios?  Signature~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your terrorist's Islam! Qur'an 5:51 "Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends." I'm a nerd, but not necessarily a computer one. We don't have fios out here yet, but I don't see why it wouldn't be any different than a cable setup like the one I have... Get a modem from verizon, plug it into a wireless router, bada bing, bada boom, you're hooked up 21st century style. > I'm a nerd, but not necessarily a computer one. We don't have fios out > here > yet, but I don't see why it wouldn't be any different than a cable setup > like the one I have... Get a modem from verizon, plug it into a wireless > router, bada bing, bada boom, you're hooked up 21st century style. It's even easier than that. The down-converted fiber optic signal is ethernet, all one needs is a 10/100 ethernet card and a router. Wireless routers are easier, but a wired one works too, you just have to run the wires. >> I'm a nerd, but not necessarily a computer one. We don't have fios out >> here [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > routers are easier, but a wired one works too, you just have to run the > wires. I'll stay wired for a while. I don't need any sniffers around here... *I* have to pay for it!!! >>> I'm a nerd, but not necessarily a computer one. We don't have fios out >>> here [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I'll stay wired for a while. I don't need any sniffers around here... Well, you can secure your wireless router if you want, and if the router is not secured, nobody can see past it if your firewall is set up (on) . I was a broadband deadbeat for a year or so before the owner of the router figured out that somebody was using his connection. Except for the cost that he paid and I didn't, I can't think of any reason why the relationship could not exist forever. I could not see into his machine, must less his network, so whatever he had was secure from the likes of guys like me. In any case, the buzz-kill that I am, I set a password on my router from the get-go. I don't want to foot the bill for a neighbor's internet connection. I've seen and heard of neighbors that have seen cars in the 'hood late at night parked in front of what they thought were hot spots. Basically, they were broadband deadbeats just like me, but mobile. Of course, they could have been peeping Toms watching me through the lacy curtains, but I seriously doubet that I draw a crowd outside the windows ... >>>> I'm a nerd, but not necessarily a computer one. We don't have fios out >>>> here [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > the cost that he paid and I didn't, I can't think of any reason why the > relationship could not exist forever. Using someone's internet access without permission is theft. You stole services for which you did not pay. I could not see into his machine, > must less his network, so whatever he had was secure from the likes of > guys like me. In any case, the buzz-kill that I am, I set a password on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've seen and heard of neighbors that have seen cars in the 'hood late > at night parked in front of what they thought were hot spots. Gee, I am pretty sure that they were hot spots. If they think there is a hot spot someplace, and they can't connect, they will move on. Basically, > they were broadband deadbeats just like me, but mobile. Of course, they > could have been peeping Toms watching me through the lacy curtains, but > I seriously doubet that I draw a crowd outside the windows ... And who will get into trouble if there is spam going out through your router or if there is child porn downloaded? Or, someone is looking up making dirty bombs which can spread radiation, dangerous microorganisms or terrorist web sites based in the Middle East? They can track every URL that anyone using your internet uses. Google, Yahoo and MSN do and hold the info for at least 18 months. I would be surprised to learn that Verizon, Comcast, RoadRunner/Time Warner and other ISPs don't. If you look at the header of this message, you will see what IP my computer is using. If someone thinks this message is inappropriate, it can be traced back to me sending it. And I am nearly positive that most ISPs (if not all) keep a record of who was using which IP when. Hey, if you want to leave your router open so that *anyone* can use it for whatever purpose they want, that's up to you. Jeff >>>>> I'm a nerd, but not necessarily a computer one. We don't have fios out >>>>> here [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Using someone's internet access without permission is theft. You stole > services for which you did not pay. Didn't I admit that? Sorry if anybody thought I thought I deserved free internet. > I could not see into his machine, >> must less his network, so whatever he had was secure from the likes of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Gee, I am pretty sure that they were hot spots. If they think there is a > hot spot someplace, and they can't connect, they will move on. Giant DUH!. > Basically, >> they were broadband deadbeats just like me, but mobile. Of course, they [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Jeff Strong arguments for securing a router, as I have secured mine. > Using someone's internet access without permission is theft. You stole > services for which you did not pay. I don't agree. There are many, many free wireless hotspots so the presumption is that if someone opens up their network for use without a password, then it is in the public domain.Wireless internet is broadcast in the public frequencies licensed by the FCC. If someone's uses those public airways without an encryption key, then it is fair game for use by anyone. Every wireless internet router that I know of comes set with a password key by default, and you must disable the need for such a password for it to be available to anyone. If the wireless network required a password and someone hacked the password that would be another story. >> Using someone's internet access without permission is theft. You stole >> services for which you did not pay. > > I don't agree. You may not, but the courts disagree. It's not a federal crime, but many cities, counties, and states have successfully prosecuted and fined violators. > You may not, but the courts disagree. It's not a federal crime, but many > cities, counties, and states have successfully prosecuted and fined > violators. Do you have any proof of that? I think you are confusing where there is a password, and someone stole the password (in many restaurants/cafes they have a password that you have to ask for). I am talking about a wireless systems where someone completely disables the password key and makes it open to anyone. >> You may not, but the courts disagree. It's not a federal crime, but many >> cities, counties, and states have successfully prosecuted and fined [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > systems where someone completely disables the password key and makes it open > to anyone. http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/04/State/Wi_Fi_cloaks_a_new_br.shtml > http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/04/State/Wi_Fi_cloaks_a_new_br.shtml What you didn't quote is this: "used his Acer brand laptop to hack into Dinon's wireless Internet network." Notice the work "hacked". Also what that article did not explain well (because the reporter was probably technically illiterate) was that the guy was arrested for hacking into the other computers connected to the wireless router, not arrested for using internet access outside a firewall. This is not the same as using a wireless network outside of a firewall for the sole purpose of internet access on a wireless connection that does not require a password. Also, the guy who was arrested was driving around in a car and was caught outside the home of the network he was hacking. He was not just looking for an internet connection, but he was looking for a way to hack into someone's computer on the wireless network. >> http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/04/State/Wi_Fi_cloaks_a_new_br.shtml > > What you didn't quote is this: > > "used his Acer brand laptop to hack into Dinon's wireless Internet network." And what you didn't quote is this: "Last year, a Michigan man was convicted of using an unsecured Wi-Fi network at a Lowe's home improvement store to steal credit card numbers. The 20-year-old and a friend stumbled across the network while cruising around in a car in search of wireless Internet connections - a practice known as "Wardriving." Notice the word "unsecured", or open. You wanted proof, you got it. It took me less than 30 seconds to find this article. Imagine how many could be found when taking more time. >>> http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/04/State/Wi_Fi_cloaks_a_new_br.shtml >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > It took me less than 30 seconds to find this article. Imagine how many > could be found when taking more time. The guy was arrested for stealling credit card numbers, not for stealling internet access. Jeff > The guy was arrested for stealling credit card numbers, not for stealling > internet access. > > Jeff Jeff, they guy you are responding to (and who has a very thick skull) is not a computer nerd, just a nerd. >> The guy was arrested for stealling credit card numbers, not for stealling >> internet access. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Jeff, they guy you are responding to (and who has a very thick skull) is not > a computer nerd, just a nerd. Sorry, but there is no need for insults here. jeff >>> The guy was arrested for stealling credit card numbers, not for >>> stealling internet access. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Sorry, but there is no need for insults here. An insult from this guy is hardly that. Children will be children. > And what you didn't quote is this: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It took me less than 30 seconds to find this article. Imagine how many > could be found when taking more time. You apparently are not very technically savvy. I already agreed that if you connect to any network (wired or wireless) for the purpose of snooping into other computers on that network, then that is illegal. Merely connecting to a wireless router that has internet access (without accessing any other computers on that network) is a completely different story. > You apparently are not very technically savvy. You're a funny guy. I've forgotten more than you'll likely ever know after 30+ years of handling multi-million dollar analog, hybrid, and digital switching, analog carrier,T1, T3, optical carrier, and mainframe equipment. Savvy, indeed. Here's another case. Apparently Michigan law does not differentiate between open and secured. Both are considered hacking in the eyes of the state law. I wouldn't imagine Michigan is unique: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070522-michigan-man-arrested-for-using-ca fes-free-wifi-from-his-car.html Now, I'm done with this dead horse. >> You apparently are not very technically savvy. > > You're a funny guy. I've forgotten more than you'll likely ever know > after 30+ years of handling multi-million dollar analog, hybrid, and > digital switching, analog carrier,T1, T3, optical carrier, and mainframe > equipment. Savvy, indeed. Ah HA. I smoke him out. He does work for an ISP and is trying to put the fear of God in consumers for sharing their internet connection with neighbors. Go ahead and sue me. >> You may not, but the courts disagree. It's not a federal crime, but many >> cities, counties, and states have successfully prosecuted and fined [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > systems where someone completely disables the password key and makes it > open to anyone. A company -- Starbucks, for example -- will disable the password key and make the access open, but my neighbor hasn't go the financial interest in providing free access that Starbucks has. Starbucks wants people to take advantage of the free connection and buy a second or third cup of coffee, my neighbor just wants people to go away. As a broadband deadbeat, I was stealing internet service. I have no reason to think that I could not have been charged with theft of service. It would surprise me to be charged because I like to think that the officials in my area have bigger fish to fry than some idiot globbing onto an internet connection from the safety and comfort of his own living room. > A company -- Starbucks, for example -- will disable the password key and > make the access open, but my neighbor hasn't go the financial interest in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in my area have bigger fish to fry than some idiot globbing onto an > internet connection from the safety and comfort of his own living room. Just about every store that I know of that has free wireless has a password key that you get by asking and the periodically change it. They don't leave it wide open. I am not going to speculate why someone in my neighborhood left there wireless internet connection wide open. Maybe the did it on purpose so they could hack into computers that connected to it. That would be a real twist in terms of who is the criminal. I have a firewall, so I did not mind if they tried that. > Just about every store that I know of that has free wireless has a > password key that you get by asking and the periodically change it. They [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > twist in terms of who is the criminal. I have a firewall, so I did not > mind if they tried that. BTW, any one who can logon to their computer without typing in a password is a fool. If someone does get passed your firewall, you are wide open. > BTW, any one who can logon to their computer without typing in a password > is a fool. If someone does get passed your firewall, you are wide open. Correction: "gets past their firewall..." "witfal" ... "Mark A" : >>> Using someone's internet access without permission is theft. You stole >>> services for which you did not pay. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cities, counties, and states have successfully prosecuted and fined > violators. Actually, if anyone's connection is left open, the signal would be so weak for outsiders, that it wouldn't really be worth it. If you have wireless capability on your computer, the point is that it's high-speed (never heard of dial-up wireless), so I can't see using another person's connection as being worth it. Additionally, I haven't seen an open, non-commercial connection in ages. Who is so stupid, that they open up their wireless connection, rather than use the encryption that comes with the router software? Anyone who does, deserves to be ripped off. :-P Natalie > Actually, if anyone's connection is left open, the signal would be so weak > for outsiders, that it wouldn't really be worth it. If you have wireless [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Natalie As I explained in previous post, I was unable to get internet service via phone cable or cable TV for about 6 weeks after I moved into my new home. The phone company and cable company forgot to wire my new street. I found two "open" wireless internet access points that had no password requirement and I used both of them. The signal strength and speed was fine. I now have my own 3 MB DSL. My wireless router came configured with a password key by default. >> Actually, if anyone's connection is left open, the signal would be so weak >> for outsiders, that it wouldn't really be worth it. If you have wireless [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I now have my own 3 MB DSL. My wireless router came configured with a > password key by default. Quite frankly, I have no problem with you borrowing the connections while they wired your street. In my book, you're already paying for it. and they were stupid in the first place. Jeff "Jeff" ... >> "Wickeddoll®"... >>> Actually, if anyone's connection is left open, the signal would be so [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Jeff That's my take on it - protect yourself or get screwed. Natalie > "Wickeddoll?" <wickeddoll1958NoEffingS...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I now have my own 3 MB DSL. My wireless router came configured with a > password key by default. The 2-Wire modems that Qwest and SBC (and probably others...) use on their DSL do actually employ a wireless key by default. Although this configuration is not that common. > "witfal" ... > "Mark A" : [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Actually, if anyone's connection is left open, the signal would be so weak > for outsiders, that it wouldn't really be worth it. I know what you mean. It is not like there are any apartments where people share one building. Especially in big cities like New York City. The people are so spread out, that they don't see each other for days, let along live near enough to get someone else's signal. I live in a small apartment building (7 apartments). There are 3 other wireless signals my computer can see. > If you have wireless > capability on your computer, the point is that it's high-speed (never heard [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Who is so stupid, that they open up their wireless connection, rather than > use the encryption that comes with the router software? A lot of people. > Anyone who does, > deserves to be ripped off. You're not ripping the person off, you're ripping off the internet access provider (ISP). My cousin is retarded. He has Down syndrome. Just because he is not smart, it is ok to steal from him? > :-P > > Natalie > You're not ripping the person off, you're ripping off the internet > access provider (ISP). That's a commonly held error. When you use someone else's connection, you're using their bandwidth. When both of you are using that bandwidth, the person paying for it is receiving less than what he pays his ISP. IOW, you're stealing. > That's a commonly held error. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > IOW, you're stealing. Not if the person deliberately configured the router to be wide open without a password. >> That's a commonly held error. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Not if the person deliberately configured the router to be wide open without > a password. Wrong on two counts. If there is not password on the router, I don't know why that is. It could be that someone else disabled it or the user didn't know enough to enable the password. Two, the ISP access is not for the consumer to give away. Jeff > Wrong on two counts. If there is not password on the router, I don't know > why that is. It could be that someone else disabled it or the user didn't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jeff The second issue is a civil matter, not a criminal one (unless someone is tries to resell the network access). "Mark A" ... > "witfal" .. >> That's a commonly held error. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Not if the person deliberately configured the router to be wide open > without a password. Yup - it's like giving out the password and configuration for your internet services. Dumb move. Natalie > Yup - it's like giving out the password and configuration for your > internet services. Dumb move. > > Natalie Some people don't care if someone uses their signal. One of the signals I used while waiting for my own internet was in the builder's sales office. They told me it was fine for me to use it. I know for a fact that their router (same as mine) came configured with keys by default and they removed them. >> You're not ripping the person off, you're ripping off the internet >> access provider (ISP). [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > IOW, you're stealing. That's correct. In most cases, I would think that the bandwidth used is far less than anything that the other user would notice, however. Nonetheless, you're interfering with a service that someone paid for without their permission. And, you're still stealing from the ISP, because it is the ISP that is losing business and is paying extra for the bandwidth that you're using. (No matter how many GB I and my neighbor who is stealing my ISP access download, I still pay the same rate, even if my neighbor is using my bandwidth up.) Jeff > That's correct. In most cases, I would think that the bandwidth used is > far less than anything that the other user would notice, however. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Jeff When it comes to the ISP, it is a civil matter, not a criminal offense. That would be a (supposed) violation of the service agreement. >> That's correct. In most cases, I would think that the bandwidth used is >> far less than anything that the other user would notice, however. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > When it comes to the ISP, it is a civil matter, not a criminal offense. That > would be a (supposed) violation of the service agreement. <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070522-michigan-man-arrested-for-using-ca fes-free-wifi-from-his-car.html> Not only is it a crime in Michigan (thanks to another poster for posting it), but it is a crime in many states. I would also ask, why didn't the police officer give the guy a warning? I mean, that is most reasonable. The police officer didn't know, at first, he breaking the law. Apparently, there were no complaints. It seems a warning would be in order. Jeff > <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070522-michigan-man-arrested-for-using-ca fes-free-wifi-from-his-car.html> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Jeff The Michigan law bars ""Fraudulent access to computers, computer systems, and computer networks". It does not specifically mention wireless access to the internet by connecting to a router when there is no password key required. My guess is that the wireless connection in that store was password protected, and the guy found out the password and used it from his car. He probably got the password key from a previous visit to the store. >> <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070522-michigan-man-arrested-for-using-ca fes-free-wifi-from-his-car.html> >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the internet by connecting to a router when there is no password key > required. That's because there is no need to say that. The WiFi point is part of the network. And when you go into that, you are using parts of the network, including the part of the network that connects the WiFi router to the internet modem. I would like you to go and explain to the judge why what he was doing was legal. > My guess is that the wireless connection in that store was > password protected, and the guy found out the password and used it from his > car. He probably got the password key from a previous visit to the store. He had never been in the store. Your guess is wrong. Jeff > That's because there is no need to say that. The WiFi point is part of the > network. And when you go into that, you are using parts of the network, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I would like you to go and explain to the judge why what he was doing was > legal. The law says that the it is illegal to break into a private network. The internet is public and if someone or some business sets up a wireless router with free internet access, that is not necessarily what the law was referring to when it was written. Since everyone is entitled to a jury trial, I bet that at least one juror would agree with me (criminal conviction must be a unanimous decision of all jurors). > He had never been in the store. Your guess is wrong. > > Jeff In the other case in CA (not the one in FL) it was not clear whether the network was protected with a key or not. In any case, I think the guy could have beaten the wrap at trial, but since it was only a $400 ticket he just paid it. Please don't tell me that the police really understand computer networking enough to really understand whether it was illegal or not. These are the only 2 cases that anyone could find about using a wireless internet connection to the internet. It happens millions of time every day without permission and no one is ever arrested. In both the cases discussed, the guys were accessing the networks from the cars, which is how they were caught. I think it would be a lot harder for the police to make a case if they were in their own home using an open wireless internet connection. The people posting in this thread are employees of ISP's (gigantic telecom and cable companies who act a monopolies and charge outrageous prices). They are trying to extort money from consumers to fill their fat pockets. >> That's because there is no need to say that. The WiFi point is part of the >> network. And when you go into that, you are using parts of the network, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The law says that the it is illegal to break into a private network. The network one breaks into to use the internet from a wifi connection is a private network. The wifi router and the modem are part of that network, and if you break into the wifi (whether or not you need a password) and use the internet, your are also using the private network. > The > internet is public The internet is partly government funded, but the access is privately funded. Time Warner, Comcast, Verizon, AT&T and others have spent literally billions of dollars each to build the backbone of the internet and the connections to internet for users. In NYC and surrounding areas, there have been a lot of TimeWarner, Comcast and Verizon trucks and workers install Fiber Optic cables. I am sure neither the trucks or supplies were free, nor did the workers volunteer their time. > and if someone or some business sets up a wireless router > with free internet access, that is not necessarily what the law was > referring to when it was written. Yet it is clear that the internet is available for free use only under certain conditions. Like if you are costumer of the company (e.g., Starbucks) and the company has the appropriate type of contract with the company. > Since everyone is entitled to a jury > trial, I bet that at least one juror would agree with me (criminal > conviction must be a unanimous decision of all jurors). And a jurer not understanding how the internet works doesn't make stealing services legal or ethical. >> He had never been in the store. Your guess is wrong. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have beaten the wrap at trial, but since it was only a $400 ticket he just > paid it. So being able to be a case at trial makes it ethical or legal? > Please don't tell me that the police really understand computer > networking enough to really understand whether it was illegal or not. That's why there are laws and judges. > These are the only 2 cases that anyone could find about using a wireless > internet connection to the internet. If you read the articles completely, you would have read that there are few others, maybe 3 or 4. > It happens millions of time every day > without permission and no one is ever arrested. More accurate statement: People are rarely arrested. > In both the cases discussed, > the guys were accessing the networks from the cars, which is how they were > caught. I think it would be a lot harder for the police to make a case if > they were in their own home using an open wireless internet connection. Which doesn't make it any more ethical or legal. > The people posting in this thread are employees of ISP's (gigantic telecom > and cable companies who act a monopolies and charge outrageous prices). Who in this thread is now or ever was an employee of a gigantic telecom or cable company? Not I. I worked for an dial-up ISP for a while, but I don't work there any more. > They > are trying to extort money from consumers to fill their fat pockets. No, they are trying to sell a product, which no one is required to buy. If you want to use their product (internet access), legally and ethically, you have to buy it. Jeff > No, they are trying to sell a product, which no one is required to buy. If > you want to use their product (internet access), legally and ethically, > you have to buy it. > > Jeff These large telecom companies have been granted a "franchise" and exemption from anti-trust laws. That is the real crime. >> No, they are trying to sell a product, which no one is required to buy. If >> you want to use their product (internet access), legally and ethically, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > These large telecom companies have been granted a "franchise" and exemption > from anti-trust laws. That is the real crime. None of which makes it right to steal their services. Jeff >>> No, they are trying to sell a product, which no one is required to >>> buy. If you want to use their product (internet access), legally and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jeff This is about a guy that bought a wireless router but logged onto his neighbor's same brand wireless router, he secured it instead of his own and didn't realize what he had done until months later when he hardwired up a computer and tried to network it to his others. Funny story, http://www.shandyking.com/2007/02/18/hijack-hacked-linksys-wireless-router/ >>>> No, they are trying to sell a product, which no one is required to >>>> buy. If you want to use their product (internet access), legally and [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > http://www.shandyking.com/2007/02/18/hijack-hacked-linksys-wireless-router/ Yeah. Unfortunately, the technology is so complex that we don't really understand it. I certainly don't understand all of the networking technology. I understand more than I need to do my stuff, but not that much more. All the people who were hijacking the author's signal will just hijack the router he was hijacking. And the guy who whose signal will be hijacked won't have a clue what happened. This is another reason to make sure your password is set: This almost guarantees that you are using your router and no one else is. Imagine if the person who bought the router that was being hijacked when out and bought Verizon's fastest Fios service because his was so slow (because it wasn't his and everyone was sharing one wifi router). And then he called back Verizon and said that there is no improvement in service. It happens. I find it funny that the author concluded the that the other WiFi router was bought at Staples. Best Buy, Circuit City, OfficeMax, PC Richards, and many other sell the same brands of routers and LynkSys is a major brand. Jeff > This is about a guy that bought a wireless router but logged onto his > neighbor's same brand wireless router, he secured it instead of his > own and didn't realize what he had done until months later when he > hardwired up a computer and tried to network it to his others. Funny > story, > http://www.shandyking.com/2007/02/18/hijack-hacked-linksys-wireless-router/ I actually did this intentionally. Another neighbor, who I warned about his unsecured router, did nothing for a couple of weeks. In the mean time, my daughter's laptop continually hooked up to his network rather than mine due to proximity of her bedroom to their house. I installed a WEP password on his wireless, which he was not using at that time, so as to prevent my daughter's computer from grabbing his signal. I used just a series of ones. Several weeks later, I attempted to log into his system and found that he'd changed the password. Stubborn fool finally got the message. >>> You're not ripping the person off, you're ripping off the internet >>> access provider (ISP). [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > download, I still pay the same rate, even if my neighbor is using my > bandwidth up.) It's amazing how many nimrods can't grasp this. I've got an electrical outlet concealed within a palm island in my front yard. Imagine someone parking out front and plugging in an extension cord without my permission. By their "logic", it's my fault. How uttery stupid can this mind set be? "witfal" ... Jeff <: >>>> You're not ripping the person off, you're ripping off the internet >>>> access provider (ISP). [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > parking out front and plugging in an extension cord without my permission. > By their "logic", it's my fault. First of all, "nimrod" simply means hunter, but since the public misunderstood when Bugs Bunny called Elmer Fudd that name, it's come to mean idiot. Just a little useless trivia. > How uttery stupid can this mind set be? If you put that plug where someone can stumble onto it, without even *trying* (a wireless net will show up if you use the "find wireless networks" command), then yes, it's your fault someone can access it. Leaving it open has to be *deliberate* since the software *warns* you to encrypt it. Natalie > First of all, "nimrod" simply means hunter, but since the public > misunderstood when Bugs Bunny called Elmer Fudd that name, it's come to mean > idiot. Just a little useless trivia. I knew that. Old Testament. Not a nice man. >> How uttery stupid can this mind set be? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Leaving it open has to be *deliberate* since the software *warns* you to > encrypt it. The outlet is concealed. Just like a router in the home. The bottom line is that it's illegal in many states, and just plain unethical everywhere unless you've got verbal or written permission. "witfal" . "Wickeddoll®" said: >> First of all, "nimrod" simply means hunter, but since the public >> misunderstood when Bugs Bunny called Elmer Fudd that name, it's come to >> mean >> idiot. Just a little useless trivia. > > I knew that. Old Testament. Not a nice man. Huh? >>> How uttery stupid can this mind set be? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > is that it's illegal in many states, and just plain unethical everywhere > unless you've got verbal or written permission. True, but it's like someone falling for that "I need your help to release my huge amount of money overseas" email. Some people have to learn the hard way. Natalie >> I knew that. Old Testament. Not a nice man. > > Huh? Genesis 10:11 >> The outlet is concealed. Just like a router in the home. The bottom line >> is that it's illegal in many states, and just plain unethical everywhere [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Some people have to learn the hard way. Troo dat. ;-) "witfal" , "Wickeddoll®" > said: >>> I knew that. Old Testament. Not a nice man. >> >> Huh? > > Genesis 10:11 What does that have to do with Elmer Fudd or Bugs Bunny? Natalie > "witfal" > , "Wickeddoll®" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What does that have to do with Elmer Fudd or Bugs Bunny? You mentioned Nimrod being a hunter. I replied that I knew that; from Gen 10:11. Just my side of the trivia, that's all. "witfal" < "Wickeddoll®" said: >> "witfal" >> , "Wickeddoll®" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Just my side of the trivia, that's all. I'm a lector, but didn't remember seeing that word. LOL Natalie >> You mentioned Nimrod being a hunter. I replied that I knew that; from Gen >> 10:11. >> >> Just my side of the trivia, that's all. > > I'm a lector, but didn't remember seeing that word. LOL You're forgiven. "witfal" , "Wickeddoll®" said: >>> You mentioned Nimrod being a hunter. I replied that I knew that; from >>> Gen [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > You're forgiven. Why thank you, Father. :-P Natalie "Jeff" <... >> "witfal" ... >> "Mark A" : [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > My cousin is retarded. He has Down syndrome. Just because he is not smart, > it is ok to steal from him? You're ripping the person off, too, because you're weakening his signal. We have our own network within our home, and it has a 128 bit encryption. Your cousin would have to be rather high-functioning, if he can consent to internet access. Also, you have to deliberately leave your connection open. The software repeatedly recommends that you encrypt it. Natalie > You're ripping the person off, too, because you're weakening his signal. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Natalie Yes, my wireless router came with random 128 keys enabled by default. > "witfal" ... > "Mark A" : [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Actually, if anyone's connection is left open, the signal would be so weak > for outsiders, that it wouldn't really be worth it. I easily hooked up to my neighbor's signal across the street. I told him he was open, including all of his files which I glanced at easily. He got encrypted quickly. > I easily hooked up to my neighbor's signal across the street. I told him > he was open, including all of his files which I glanced at easily. > > He got encrypted quickly. Again, there are two different things here. 1. Accessing a wireless network and accessing another computer on that local network. That is illegal. 2. Accessing an open wireless internet connection which is outside the firewall of the local network. You can get to the internet, but not to any of the computers on the wireless network. This is OK if the person disabled the password key on the wireless network access for public access. Your neighbor could have set up a firewall on the router or a firewall on his PC that allows no access to his PC by others connected to his router for internet access. It is true that the ISP lobby is desperately trying to make number 2 illegal, even if neighbors want to share an internet connection, and I would not be surprised if some laws prohibit it. But no one has been arrested for only using someone's internet access that was specifically left open to the public (password or key not hacked). >> I easily hooked up to my neighbor's signal across the street. I told him >> he was open, including all of his files which I glanced at easily. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > of the computers on the wireless network. This is OK if the person disabled > the password key on the wireless network access for public access. You asked for proof that someone had been prosecuted for using an unsecured network. I gave you that proof. If you want to keep moving the bar higher, lower, or sideways, fine. Have fun. > You asked for proof that someone had been prosecuted for using an > unsecured network. I gave you that proof. If you want to keep moving the > bar higher, lower, or sideways, fine. Have fun. No, I asked for proof that someone was arrested only for using free internet access on a wireless network that was set up without a password key. That is not the same as snooping into other computers who are also connected to the wireless or wired network. Anyone who connects to the internet can (wired or wireless) can get their computer hacked if they don't have a firewall (which comes free with Windows XP/Vista , or with most internet routers). This has nothing to do with using a free wireless internet connection. >> I easily hooked up to my neighbor's signal across the street. I told him >> he was open, including all of his files which I glanced at easily. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > his PC that allows no access to his PC by others connected to his router for > internet access. No, it's not. It is not his ISP access to give away. It is his to use. > It is true that the ISP lobby is desperately trying to make number 2 > illegal, even if neighbors want to share an internet connection, and I would > not be surprised if some laws prohibit it. Then this won't surprise you: http://www.pcworld.com/printable/article/id,122153/printable.html > But no one has been arrested for > only using someone's internet access that was specifically left open to the > public (password or key not hacked). Gee, search the above article for the word "arrested." Jeff > Then this won't surprise you: > http://www.pcworld.com/printable/article/id,122153/printable.html [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Gee, search the above article for the word "arrested." Don't confuse him with the facts, Jeff. > Gee, search the above article for the word "arrested." > > Jeff The first case of Smith in FL is the same as discussed before. He was hacking into another computer on a wireless computer, not "stealing" internet access. The other case was in the UK, and I won't even bother to read the details of that one because UK law does not apply in the US. "witfal" , "Wickeddoll®" >> "witfal" ... >> "Mark A" : [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > He got encrypted quickly. LOL live and learn. Natalie > "witfal" ... > "Mark A" : [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > use the encryption that comes with the router software? Anyone who does, > deserves to be ripped off. I used an open connection for about a year, it was so worth it to me that I cancelled my dial-up. "Jeff Strickland" > "Wickeddoll®" >> "witfal" ... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I used an open connection for about a year, it was so worth it to me that > I cancelled my dial-up. Comparing dialup to any overloaded wireless connection is like comparing a Yugo to a Ferrari. Natalie >> I used an open connection for about a year, it was so worth it to me that >> I cancelled my dial-up. >> > Comparing dialup to any overloaded wireless connection is like comparing a > Yugo to a Ferrari. Well, yeah. But I paid for the Yugo, I drove the Ferrari for free. > >> Using someone's internet access without permission is theft. You stole > >> services for which you did not pay. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > many cities, counties, and states have successfully prosecuted and > fined violators. Very rarely do you get in trouble for using an open wireless network, at least here in the US. Only a few cases. > Very rarely do you get in trouble for using an open wireless network, > at least here in the US. Only a few cases. I think those cases are only when you tunnel into the network and hack into other computers on the network. No one has ever been charged with simply using a wireless internet connection that is configured without any password. The ISP's want you to think it is illegal, so they don't loose any internet access sales. >> Very rarely do you get in trouble for using an open wireless network, >> at least here in the US. Only a few cases. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The ISP's want you to think it is illegal, so they don't loose any internet > access sales. I guess you didn't read my entire article. > I guess you didn't read my entire article. Yes I read it. Did you? I don't think you understand networking. >>>> Using someone's internet access without permission is theft. You stole >>>> services for which you did not pay. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Very rarely do you get in trouble for using an open wireless network, > at least here in the US. Only a few cases. Not getting into trouble is not the same as being ethical. Jeff > Not getting into trouble is not the same as being ethical. > > Jeff If someone disables the password key on their wireless router, the presumption is that they don't care if someone uses it. If their access speed is affected they have the option to password protect their router. Do you work for an ISP by any chance? >> Not getting into trouble is not the same as being ethical. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Do you work for an ISP by any chance? I used to work for a dial-up ISP. The presumption is that they don't care if certain people use it (e.g., neighbors that they have given permission to), but it is rather presumptuous to assume that they left the access open for everyone. And, whether or not they did leave their router open for public access (it takes seconds to configure a notebook to work with a particular router, and the notebook will store the password for ever, so this is no excuse if they don't mind if their neighbors share it), it is not their access to give away, unless they made the appropriate arrangements with the ISP. Jeff >>>> Using someone's internet access without permission is theft. You stole >>>> services for which you did not pay. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Very rarely do you get in trouble for using an open wireless network, > at least here in the US. Only a few cases. See my cite. > See my cite. All of your cites are OT. You cite cases where someone was sneaking into other computers on the network, not using the internet access only. >> Using someone's internet access without permission is theft. You stole >> services for which you did not pay. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the public frequencies licensed by the FCC. If someone's uses those public > airways without an encryption key, then it is fair game for use by anyone. I totally disagree. It is not my right to give away the internet service that I pay for. This is just like using someone's cable service by splicing into the cable. It is theft of services. If someone pays for a public hotspot, like at the JetBlue terminal of JFK, then using the public hotspot is fair game. > Every wireless internet router that I know of comes set with a password key > by default, and you must disable the need for such a password for it to be > available to anyone. If the wireless network required a password and someone > hacked the password that would be another story. I have installed a few wireless routers, and none of the had the password enabled. > I totally disagree. It is not my right to give away the internet service > that I pay for. This is just like using someone's cable service by > splicing into the cable. It is theft of services. > > If someone pays for a public hotspot, like at the JetBlue terminal of JFK, > then using the public hotspot is fair game. What do you mean by "pays for a public hotspot"? If it is public, it is free. If Starbucks offers free wireless to its customers (they give out a rotating password to their customers) then Starbucks does not pay extra to the ISP for this. > I have installed a few wireless routers, and none of the had the password > enabled. I find that hard to believe. But just remember-- buyer beware. >> I totally disagree. It is not my right to give away the internet service >> that I pay for. This is just like using someone's cable service by [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What do you mean by "pays for a public hotspot"? If it is public, it is > free. Jet Blue pays for the one in its terminal at JFK. McDonalds and other restaurants pay for the internet access at its restaurants. > If Starbucks offers free wireless to its customers (they give out a rotating > password to their customers) then Starbucks does not pay extra to the ISP > for this. Their license with the ISP allows them to offer the internet to their costumers. My license with my ISP doesn't allow me to offer it to others, free or otherwise. Members of my family and my guests are welcome to use my internet when they are visiting me. People sitting in front of my building are not. There are public wireless internet hotspots, like central park where they're installing it and the NYC public libraries (not all of them, though). In addition, many hotels, motels and restaurants offer free wireless access. If go and buy a McDonalds salad and use the WiFi, you're not stealing anything. Likewise, there are free wireless public internet access points where you can use the internet for free, paid for by someone. The big thing here is that public access points are access points that someone has paid for that the general public can use it. My internet access is not. >> I have installed a few wireless routers, and none of the had the password >> enabled. > > I find that hard to believe. But just remember-- buyer beware. I know. > Their license with the ISP allows them to offer the internet to their > costumers. My license with my ISP doesn't allow me to offer it to others, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > someone has paid for that the general public can use it. My internet > access is not. This whole discussion has nothing to do with stealing an internet connection from neighbors, it has to do with stealing from the ISP's (neighbors sharing a single connection with consent of each other). Those issues fall under contract law which would be settled by civil litigation, and do not fall under the category of a "crime." If the ISP finds out that you are sharing your connection , then they can revoke your connection or sue you for damages if they don't like it. They cannot successfully file a criminal complaint. >> Their license with the ISP allows them to offer the internet to their >> costumers. My license with my ISP doesn't allow me to offer it to others, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > revoke your connection or sue you for damages if they don't like it. They > cannot successfully file a criminal complaint. http://www.pcworld.com/printable/article/id,122153/printable.html Search the above article for "felony." > http://www.pcworld.com/printable/article/id,122153/printable.html > > Search the above article for "felony." You keep repeating the same old lame case in FL: "Smith, 40, was arrested and charged with a felony under a Florida law that prohibits unauthorized access to a computer or network." What that means is that he broke into Richard Dinon's network and starting searching the guys computer for confidential information using the wireless network connection. He was not arrested for using a wireless internet connection that was not password protected. The law applies to breaking into networks, not using the internet bandwidth. That the accused was driving around in his car with a laptop was prima facie evidence that he was trying to find an unprotected home network and illegally access someone's computer (which has nothing to do with the internet). >> http://www.pcworld.com/printable/article/id,122153/printable.html >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > searching the guys computer for confidential information using the wireless > network connection. Wrong. The internet itself is a network. > He was not arrested for using a wireless internet > connection that was not password protected. The law applies to breaking into > networks, not using the internet bandwidth. That the accused was driving > around in his car with a laptop was prima facie evidence that he was trying > to find an unprotected home network and illegally access someone's computer > (which has nothing to do with the internet). Wrong. How can you tell he was trying to access a home network rather than the internet? Jeff > Wrong. The internet itself is a network. The internet does not beloong to the guy who had the wireless router. The cuplrit was arrested for breaking into the home local area network via the wireless router for the purpose of hacking into a computer, not for using the internet. > Wrong. How can you tell he was trying to access a home network rather than > the internet? > > Jeff Because I read the article (albeit some of the versions of the story where not exactly clear on that). The culprit was traveling around in his car trying to find a open wireless network AND an unprotected computer (no firewall and no password on the computer) attached to the network that he could snoop around in. >> Wrong. The internet itself is a network. > > The internet does not beloong to the guy who had the wireless router. Precisely. The person who owns the wireless router does not have the right to give away what he doesn't own. > The > cuplrit was arrested for breaking into the home local area network via the > wireless router for the purpose of hacking into a computer, not for using > the internet. Wrong. Please show where it said that the person was breaking into any computer on the router owner's network. The person was using the router owner's network to access the internet. >> Wrong. How can you tell he was trying to access a home network rather than >> the internet? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > firewall and no password on the computer) attached to the network that he > could snoop around in. Please cite a reference that backs this claim. Jeff > Precisely. The person who owns the wireless router does not have the right > to give away what he doesn't own. That is a completely different question that would get decided in civil court if the telecom wanted to sue the customer for giving away his internet access. It is not a criminal matter, unless the customer resells it to make money. >> Precisely. The person who owns the wireless router does not have the right >> to give away what he doesn't own. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > access. It is not a criminal matter, unless the customer resells it to make > money. It is a criminal matter on the part of the person stealing the service, however. Jeff >>> Precisely. The person who owns the wireless router does not have the >>> right to give away what he doesn't own. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It is a criminal matter on the part of the person stealing the service, > however. Correct. > It is a criminal matter on the part of the person stealing the service, > however. > > Jeff No it is not. It is an (alleged) violation of a contract. That is a civil offense, unless the person is reselling the service for a profit. >> It is a criminal matter on the part of the person stealing the service, >> however. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No it is not. It is an (alleged) violation of a contract. That is a civil > offense, unless the person is reselling the service for a profit. What contract? There is no contract to break, because the person stealing the service does not have a contract with the ISP provider. It is illegal to steal someone's internet service because you are breaking into the ISP provider's network. Stop acting like a bunghole, please (and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt when I use the words "acting like" instead of "being"). It has been adequately shown that several people were arrested for stealing wireless access to the internet. You were asked to provide evidence that they were arrested for breaking into the computers, rather than the internet, and you failed to do so. If you respond to this, and you don't provide any evidence or anything new, I won't respond to you again, because I am sick and tired of responding to clueless twits. Jeff > If you respond to this, and you don't provide any evidence or anything > new, I won't respond to you again, because I am sick and tired of > responding to clueless twits. It just took you a little longer than me, Jeff. <g> > > Their license with the ISP allows them to offer the internet to their > > costumers. My license with my ISP doesn't allow me to offer it to others, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > revoke your connection or sue you for damages if they don't like it. They > cannot successfully file a criminal complaint. They could sue you for sure although I don't think many ISP's are going to sue their residential users considering they make a slim profit as it is and if they lost, they're out that much more. And, it'd only take a lawsuit or two, probably just one... before the bad press would kill your ISP. Taking your internet connection? Unless it's causing them a headache or they really think it's encroaching on their profit margin, they're unlikely to really care. At least the ISP I work at is like this. Most in this valley are. >> Using someone's internet access without permission is theft. You stole >> services for which you did not pay. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to be available to anyone. If the wireless network required a password and > someone hacked the password that would be another story. A FREE wireless hot spot implies consent to use the resources available. Surely, my neighbor is not operating a hot spot that he wants us to use at his expense. Starbucks supplies a hot spot so its customers can get on the 'net, and they hope that those customers will linger a while and buy more coffee and pastries. My wireless router came as an open device, I had to go in and secure it. > A FREE wireless hot spot implies consent to use the resources available. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > My wireless router came as an open device, I had to go in and secure it. How do you know that? When I connected to the open wireless connection in my area, I could not identify whose it was, so I assumed they knew what they were doing by setting it up without a password key. I was able to determine that the other connection I used from the development sales office belonged to the builder based on the SSID. > Well, you can secure your wireless router if you want, and if the router > is not secured, nobody can see past it if your firewall is set up (on) . [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > have been peeping Toms watching me through the lacy curtains, but I > seriously doubet that I draw a crowd outside the windows ... I had trouble getting internet access when I moved into my home because the phone company and cable TV company both forget to lay wires in my new subdivision. But I noticed one time that a laptop I borrowed was able to get a wireless connection without a password from someone else in the neighborhood, so I bought a wireless USB adapter for my desktop computer that had a high gain antenna. The signal and the speed were fine, but unfortunately, the wireless USB adapter caused by computer to freeze up frequently, so as soon as I was able to get DSL from the phone company I signed up. Otherwise, if I had not had the wireless USB problems with my computer freezing, I would probably still be using the free wireless internet from a generous or unsuspecting neighbor. BTW, don't get any Hawking Technologies products, there drivers suck and so does their support. > > Well, you can secure your wireless router if you want, and if the router > > is not secured, nobody can see past it if your firewall is set up (on) . [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > neighbor. BTW, don't get any Hawking Technologies products, there drivers > suck and so does their support. USB networking sucks. > Quick question... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > any idea on th |
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