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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / October 2007Tundra owners grumble over rumble
Tundra owners grumble over rumble Mark Rechtin Automotive News October 22, 2007 - 12:01 am ET LOS ANGELES - Toyota's Tundra pickup was hit with a double whammy last week. Angry consumers are peppering the Internet with complaints that the torque converter in the 2007 Tundra's six-speed transmission has problems disengaging during gearshifts - a problem that Toyota acknowledges. Meanwhile, the Tundra 4x4 model took a broadside from Consumer Reports magazine, which rated it "below average" in projected reliability. Toyota thought it had put the redesigned Tundra's teething problems in the rearview mirror. First there was a batch of defective camshafts. Then it received a four-star rating in NHTSA crash tests, one star less than its Detroit rivals. The latest quality snarl involves a vibration coming from the transmission when changing gears under gentle acceleration or deceleration. Toyota Motor Sales officials have nicknamed the problem "the rumble strip" because the slippage causes vibration similar to the sensation of driving over the wake-up strips at the side of highways. The rumbling usually lasts several seconds. But the problem sometimes worsens to the point that some owners can't shift into certain gears. The problem has been reported only in six-speed transmissions, which are linked to the popular 5.7-liter V-8 engine. Since the 2007 Tundra's February launch, the 5.7-liter engine has been installed in 70 percent of about 135,000 Tundras sold. That means the problem could affect nearly 100,000 vehicles. Tundra travails Since its February launch, Toyota's full-sized pickup has taken some hits related to quality. Bad batch of camshafts Crash rating below rivals' Consumer Reports snub Faulty torque converters Bad torque converter Before Toyota's technical service department traced the problem to the torque converter, some Toyota dealers replaced entire transmissions, said Toyota spokesman John Hanson. If the vibration occurs now, likely only the torque converter will be replaced. Toyota still is trying to trace what exactly is wrong with the torque converter. Internal field reports have yet to show anyone stranded by the problem, Hanson said. But Tundra owners in several Internet chat rooms say their transmissions quit shifting properly, forcing them to limp the truck to a dealership. The rumble-strip effect often occurs within the first 1,000 miles of ownership. Isolated instances Pickup owners are especially particular about vehicle reliability, says Mike Levine, editor of the consumer Internet site pickuptruck.com. Since Toyota staked its reputation on reliability, any problem makes it tougher for Toyota to persuade domestic loyalists to switch allegiances, Levine said. Reports of the problem have been sporadic. Large dealers in northern California, Texas and Ohio said they had no reported owner complaints about Tundra transmissions. An executive for a group of Midwestern dealerships, speaking anonymously, said his mechanics had seen one or two instances. Craig Whetter, executive vice president of Wilson Automotive Group, says the group's six Toyota stores in California and Arizona have sold 2,236 Tundras this year but have not seen a single bad torque converter. "These guys haven't turned a bolt on one, let alone replaced one," Whetter said. Of bigger concern to Toyota is the number of vehicles affected. The faulty camshaft problem was limited to several hundred early-build vehicles, but owners of Tundras built as recently as September have complained of defective transmissions. The torque converter for the six-speed transmission used with the 5.7-liter V-8 is built at an Aisin AW plant in Durham, N.C. Aisin officials declined to comment, referring interview requests to Toyota. > Tundra owners grumble over rumble > [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > 5.7-liter V-8 is built at an Aisin AW plant in Durham, N.C. Aisin > officials declined to comment, referring interview requests to Toyota. I'm not completeley surprised by all this quality slipping news coming out lately. Although I am still a Toyota loyalist I have personally noticed the quality of the controls, road noise, inside material and other non-essential parts. All Toyotas I have owned since my 1994 Camry just don't measure up in feel or driving experience. All that said I would still choose a Toyota over almost any brand just because everything under the skin and cabin lasts for such a long time without needing repair. > I'm not completeley surprised by all this quality slipping news coming > out lately. Although I am still a Toyota loyalist I have personally [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > because everything under the skin and cabin lasts for such a long time > without needing repair. I don't think this problem is really that big a deal. Toyota has had problems like ever other manufacturer for years. However, in many cases they get the bugs out in other markets before selling the product in the US. The new Tundra has quite a few US unique componets (5.7L engine, 6 speed truck transmission). Because of this, the US market is doing the debugging. I only know one person who has a "new" Tundra and he seems happy - but then the biggest thing he likely to haul is groceries. I am seeing a lot more big Tundras around. It seems to be a moderate hit with the "I don't really need a truck, but want one crowd." The hard bed cover and chrome brush guards are clear indicators that it is a hit with the poser crowd. I have yet to see one outside of a Toyota commerical hauling anything at all (even a boat). Anyhow, both Ford and Dodge had problems with shuttering torque convertors in the recent past. The camshaft problems seems to have been an early teething problem that has been resolved. Ed Even Toyotas race cars are pulled to the track by domestic trucks, mot Fords mike >> I'm not completeley surprised by all this quality slipping news coming >> out lately. Although I am still a Toyota loyalist I have personally [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Ed Really? Then why is it Toyota had more recalls than any other manufacturer in 2006 and again so far in 2007? mike >> Tundra owners grumble over rumble >> [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] > because everything under the skin and cabin lasts for such a long time > without needing repair. > Really? Then why is it Toyota had more recalls than any other > manufacturer in 2006 and again so far in 2007? Mike, we covered this before. While it is true Toyota recalled the most vehicles in 2006, it is not even close in 2007. GM, Ford, and Nissan have all recalled more vehicles so far in 2007 than Toyota. I gave you the facts and good references. Ed The fact remains Toyota had the most RECALLS. ;) mike >> Really? Then why is it Toyota had more recalls than any other >> manufacturer in 2006 and again so far in 2007? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ed > The fact remains Toyota had the most RECALLS. ;) > > mike That is not true either. I provided you with a complete list 2007 Toyota recalls. Strictly speaking "Toyota" only has three recall campaigns in 2007: Sept 26 - NHTSA # 07E082000 - 2007 and 2008 Camry and Lexus ES350 Floor Mats (an equipment recall, not a vehicle recall) - approximately 55,000 vehicles affected Jan 19 - NHTSA # 07V013000 - 2004 to 2007 Sequoias and 2004 to 2006 Tundras - lower ball joint recall - 533,124 vehicles affected Jul 24 - NHTSA # 07V324000 - 2007 Tacoma 4WD Pickup - propeller shaft - 108 vehicles affected There are three more recalls for aftermarket components installed in Toyotas (in some cases installed by Toyota dealers or distributors): Jan 16 - NHTSA # 07E005000 - Scion XA and XB - aftermarket cruise control (not installed by Toyota) - 2934 vehicles affected Jan 25 - NHTSA # 07V030000 - Scion XA and XB - Gulf States installed cruise control - 1372 vehicles affected Jan 16 - NHTSA # 07V048000 - Scion XA and XB - Southeast Toyota installed cruise control - 716 vehicles As far as I can detemrine that is the complete list of 2007 "Toyota/Lexus/Scion" US Recalls. In the last five months of 2007 (May to September) DiamlerChrysler (now Chrysler) has had 13 recalls: May 2007 - 07V-192 - DaimlerChrysler is recalling 270,958 MY 2005 Town and Country and Dodge Caravan minivans May 2007 - 07V-196 - DaimlerChrysler is recalling 410 MY 2007 Dodge Caliber, Jeep Compass and Patriot passenger vehicles June 2007 - 07V-240 - DaimlerChrysler is recalling 798 MY 2007-2008 Sebring and MY 2008 Dodge Avenger vehicles. June 2007 - 07V-246 - DaimlerChrysler is recalling 39 MY 2007 Dodge and Freightliner Sprinter 2500 and 3500 trucks. June 2007 - 07V-247 - DaimlerChrysler is recalling 5,062 MY 2007 Dodge Ram 1500 pickup trucks July 2007 - 07V-291 - DaimlerChrysler is recalling 80,894 MY 2007 Jeep Wrangler and Dodge Nitro vehicles. July 2007 - 07V-299 - DaimlerChrysler Manufacturing is recalling 4,433 MY 2001-2006 Dodge Sprinter and Freightliner Sprinter 2500 and 3500 trucks July 2007 - 07V-325 - DaimlerChrysler Manufacturing is recalling 461 MY 2007 Dodge and Freightliner Sprinter 2500 and 3500 trucks. September 2007 - 07V-413 - DaimlerChrysler is recalling 1,498 MY 2007 2-wheel drive Dodge Ram pickup trucks September 2007 - 07V-414 - DaimlerChrysler is recalling 72,333 MY 2007-2008 Avenger sedan and Chrysler Sebring convertible vehicles. Septemeber 2007 - 07V-415 - DaimlerChrysler is recalling 28,755 MY 2007-2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee and Commander sport utility vehicles September 2007 - 07V-426 - DaimlerChrysler is recalling 1,158 MY 2008 Dodge Avenger all wheel drive vehicles. Septemeber 2007 - 07V-434 - DaimlerChrysler is recalling 296,550 MY 2007 Dodge Nitro, Jeep Wrangler, and MY 2006-2007 Grand Cherokee and Commander sport utility vehicles. Ford, GM, Nissan, VW, Volvo, and Suzuki have all had more individual recall campaigns than Toyota so far in 2007. So to be clear - Toyota has not recalled the most vehicles in 2007 and Toyota has not had the most recalls in 2007. Mike you need to stop making stuff up. It hurts your credibility when you actaully are stating true facts. Ed >>> Really? Then why is it Toyota had more recalls than any other >>> manufacturer in 2006 and again so far in 2007? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Ed Spin it any way you wish but total RECALLS does not refer to only the current model year. The fact remains Toyota had the most RECALLS in 2006 and is currently highest in 2007. mike >> The fact remains Toyota had the most RECALLS. ;) >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > recalls. Strictly speaking "Toyota" only has three recall campaigns in > 2007: > Spin it any way you wish but total RECALLS does not refer to only > the current model year. The fact remains Toyota had the most > RECALLS in 2006 and is currently highest in 2007. Either provide some backup for this false claim or quit making it. GM, Ford, Nissan, and VW all had more total vehicles recalled than Toyota during 2007. Multiple manufacturers had more individual recalls during 2007 than Toyota. Multiple manufacturers had more different models recalled during 2007 than Toyota. If you are trying to say that there were more Toyotas on the road subject to recall during 2007, that is not true either. There is no way you can claim that Toyota has the most recalls, or vehicles recalled, or vehicles subject to recalls in 2007. It is really infuriating when you just make stuff up, and then try to weasel your way out of admitting that you made it up. The facts are out there. Point us to some facts that prove your claim that Toyota "is currently highest in 2007" (whatever the heck that means). Otherwise quit making a false claim. Ed : Spin it any way you wish but total RECALLS does not refer to only the : current model year. The fact remains Toyota had the most RECALLS in 2006 : and is currently highest in 2007. Yeah well for longevity and overall quality a Toy beats the "Big Three" by light years. > : Spin it any way you wish but total RECALLS does not refer to only the > : current model year. The fact remains Toyota had the most RECALLS in 2006 > : and is currently highest in 2007. > > Yeah well for longevity and overall quality a Toy beats the "Big Three" by light years. Not by light years any more. The Michigan 3 (I don't say big 3 because Toyota is the largest automaker in the world) are catching up. jeff > Yeah well for longevity and overall quality a Toy beats the "Big Three" by > light years. Care to share any proof for this sweeping statement? Ed >>I'm not completeley surprised by all this quality slipping news coming >>out lately. Although I am still a Toyota loyalist I have personally [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Really? Then why is it Toyota had more recalls than any other manufacturer >in 2006 and again so far in 2007? Probably because they introduced more all-new designs around that time than other manufacturers did. Recalls are related more to new designs than overall quality, as Chrysler and AMC showed in the 1970s, when they sometimes had the lowest recall rates in the industry, along with the oldest designs. Contrary to what Toyota claims publicly, the quality and efficiency of their North American factories are not as good as their Japanese factories', and the designs never produced in Japan have fared worse than the other Toyotas. Interesting that article states "the new Tundra owners have been peppering the internet with complaints". Am I missing something, or is there not one single "new" Tundra complaint on this NG? The older Tundra, like what I have (2002) had brake issues, tranny issues, various other things that showed up here. GC > Tundra owners grumble over rumble > [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > 5.7-liter V-8 is built at an Aisin AW plant in Durham, N.C. Aisin > officials declined to comment, referring interview requests to Toyota. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chips" <chips1@reliableins.nospam> Newsgroups: alt.autos.toyota,alt.autos.toyota.trucks Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: Tundra owners grumble over rumble > Interesting that article states "the new Tundra owners have been peppering > the internet with complaints". > > Am I missing something, or is there not one single "new" Tundra complaint > on this NG? I actually thought the same thing. There were a couple of other things that bothered me - 1) I don't think a torque converter can disengage during a shift - maybe they meant the torque converter clutch; 2) I doubt that the actual torque convertors are made in Durham (the transmissions are made there), 3) I don't think must truck owner are especially particular about reliability. In defense of the article, I will say that usenet is no longer the primary tool people use to discuss problems. Most people I know prefer other types of forums. Here are a few other forums where problems are discussed: http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2007/08/22/all-known-2007-toyota-tundra-p roblems/ http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/tundra/114436-tundra-tailgate-failures-i-a m-club/ http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/tundra/113646-transmission-fault-identified/ http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1669aa http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/news/toyota/tundra/transmissions/page1.html I think you can find enough mention of problems to qualify as "peppering the internet with complaints." Ed Yeah, that could be. The web forums have better controls for the spamming that goes on in the usenets. Thanks for those links. GC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chips" <chips1@reliableins.nospam> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Ed Toyota needs to sell a hell of a lot more Tundras for the problematic ones to start to show up as complaint in a NG. The only sell around 5% of the trucks sold in the US ;) mike > Interesting that article states "the new Tundra owners have been peppering > the internet with complaints". [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] >> 5.7-liter V-8 is built at an Aisin AW plant in Durham, N.C. Aisin >> officials declined to comment, referring interview requests to Toyota. That's understandable domestic trucks are very reliable trucks. When Toyota said 'this changes everything' they were referring to the Tundra finally getting closer to domestic trucks in build quality. The Tundra is a far better truck than anything Toyota sold before but it seems they still have a way to go to come close to Ford, GM and Dodge full-size trucks in build quality mike > Tundra owners grumble over rumble > [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > 5.7-liter V-8 is built at an Aisin AW plant in Durham, N.C. Aisin > officials declined to comment, referring interview requests to Toyota. : The Tundra is a far better truck than anything Toyota sold before but it : seems they still have a way to go to come close to Ford, GM and Dodge : full-size trucks in build quality You HAVE to be kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Any reliable mechanic will tell you that G(enerally) M(ediocre), Fraud & Drudge are the WORST brands for reliability. Plus look at their resale value. You can see it falling as they are driven off the lot! > : The Tundra is a far better truck than anything Toyota sold before but it > : seems they still have a way to go to come close to Ford, GM and Dodge [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > their resale value. You can see it falling as they are driven off the > lot! Don't get too wrapped up in this debate. My Kunter believes he was once in the car business. It's a harmless, but annoying symptom. His doctors can't do much about it except to keep him sedated much of the day. >> : The Tundra is a far better truck than anything Toyota sold before but >> it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the car business. It's a harmless, but annoying symptom. His doctors can't > do much about it except to keep him sedated much of the day. LOL!! >>> : The Tundra is a far better truck than anything Toyota sold before but >>> it [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > LOL!! I suppose we should wrap up this discussion. I'll do it: Another goofy OT post from one of our lefty kook friends ROTFLOL Tundra recalls are OT? We know you Toyota loyalists think Toyota don't brake down but now you want to deny the recalls Toyota announces? LOL mike >>>> : The Tundra is a far better truck than anything Toyota sold before but >>>> it [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I suppose we should wrap up this discussion. I'll do it: > Another goofy OT post from one of our lefty kook friends ROTFLOL > Tundra recalls are OT? We know you Toyota loyalists think Toyota don't > brake down but now you want to deny the recalls Toyota announces? LOL The subject switched to your disability, which you are not aware of. That IS the disability. The patient has no idea. Yet another goofy OT post from one of our lefty kook friends. LOL mike >> Tundra recalls are OT? We know you Toyota loyalists think Toyota don't >> brake down but now you want to deny the recalls Toyota announces? LOL > > The subject switched to your disability, which you are not aware of. That > IS the disability. The patient has no idea. > LOL!! answer the damn question diaper boy. >> LOL!! > > answer the damn question diaper boy. There is no question here. Now, take the needle out of your arm. We though you were going to tell us it was the Bush administrations fault that the Tundra had a recall. >>> LOL!! >> >> answer the damn question diaper boy. > > There is no question here. Now, take the needle out of your arm. > >> LOL!! > > > > answer the damn question diaper boy. > > There is no question here. Now, take the needle out of your arm. Go drag your knuckles with diaper boy roy. Not OT for a change but still a goofy post from one of our lefty kook friends. LOL mike >> : The Tundra is a far better truck than anything Toyota sold before but >> it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the car business. It's a harmless, but annoying symptom. His doctors can't > do much about it except to keep him sedated much of the day. > : The Tundra is a far better truck than anything Toyota sold before but it > : seems they still have a way to go to come close to Ford, GM and Dodge [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > their resale value. You can see it falling as they are driven off the > lot! Can you point me to reasonably well collected statistics that back up this claim? Between myself and my Father we have owned 12 Ford Trucks in the last 51 years ('56 F100, '62 F100, '67 F100, '72 F100, '75 F100, '78 Courier, '83 Ranger, '86 Ranger, '89 Rager, '92 F150, '92 Ranger, '99 Ranger). The list of repairs is pretty short: '56 F100 - replaced bed floor (hauling hogs is tough on bed floors) '62 F100 - replaced one brake line (I popped it somehow) '67 F100 - clutch '72 F100 - nothing '75 F100 - nothing (but it drank gas like it was water) '78 Courier - vacuum modulator '83 Ranger - nothing '86 Ranger - ignition module '89 Ranger - nothing '92 Ranger - water pump '92 F150 - fuel pump, a/c recharge, alternator, HVAC blower fan (I managed to get a plastic grocery bag wrapped around the fan shaft) '99 Ranger - nothing These trucks weren't ride around town empty trucks. They were used on a farm on a daily basis, hauling real loads in fields, etc. I don't know many farmers with Toyota trucks. The only one I know persoanlly owned two of the smaller Tacoma type trucks. One was a diesel - it required the transmission to be rebuilt twice and the engine once. The other was a gas truck, he had to replace the engine in that. Both suffered greatly from rust. For actually hauling stuff, he now has a Silverado. He has a Colorado for a ride around truck. He also has the old Toyota gas truck for his wife to use. Ed > > : The Tundra is a far better truck than anything Toyota sold before but it > > : seems they still have a way to go to come close to Ford, GM and Dodge [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Ed My brother in law is a Farmer in S.Dakota. He only owns Ford trucks, as do most all Midwest farmers. He puts 300K on these things, and beats them to hell every day. In one day that I spent with him, we drove that truck through fields and ditches, pulled a silo across a field, dragged feed troughs and feeders from one field to another, then hooked up this big a.s cattle trailer and hauled a bunch of cows to the sale barn. This was just one day with his Ford truck with 285K on it. Fact are important to guys that drive Toyota CARS and never owned a truck. LOL mike >> > : The Tundra is a far better truck than anything Toyota sold before but >> > it [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > to the sale barn. This was just one day with his Ford truck with 285K > on it. That may be your personal opinion, but the facts prove otherwise. How often have we heard in this NG somebody saying I will not buy another brand "X" or "Y" because of the ONE they owned that was problematic? The Camry is the number one selling midsize car for a reason, buyers believe it is the best car for their hard earned money. The F150 is the best selling truck, as well as the best selling vehicle in the US, for the same reason. The F Series truck sells at a rate nearly twice that of the Camry. Buyers do not continue to buy any vehicle if one they buy is problematic. Truck buys have been buying the Ford F150 over and over and over again for thirty years. The second best selling truck has been the Silverado. Combined, in a few weeks, those two trucks sell at TWICE the annual selling rate of the Tundra. THAT should tell you what trucks, actual truck buyer think are the best trucks for their money and the truck they continually prefer to buy. Whether you happen to agree of not is immaterial ;) mike > : The Tundra is a far better truck than anything Toyota sold before but it > : seems they still have a way to go to come close to Ford, GM and Dodge [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > their resale value. You can see it falling as they are driven off the > lot! And most idjits don't keep an F-150 long enough for any real problems to show up. Check the resale value on an F-150. It dives like a submarine as it rolls off the lot. : That may be your personal opinion, but the facts prove otherwise. : [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] : > their resale value. You can see it falling as they are driven off the : > lot! "Fuller Rath" ... > And most idjits don't keep an F-150 long enough for any real problems to > show up. Check the resale value on an F-150. It dives > like a submarine as it rolls off the lot. I find that hard to believe. I remember that in one day, in the Phoenix area, thousands of F-150s were stolen in the same day, and one of my coworkers was a victim. She went out to the lot to go home, and her truck was gone! (circa 2003, if I recall correctly). It's still one of the top most often stolen vehicles. By the way, my coworker had her truck for at least *4 years* - they stole it anyway! Natalie there's no accounting for taste......... or a lack thereof 4 years? that would average out to 48-60M miles. About the useful life span of a F-150 : "Fuller Rath" ... : > And most idjits don't keep an F-150 long enough for any real problems to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] : : Natalie "Fuller Rath" ... > there's no accounting for taste......... or a lack thereof *shrug* I'm a Toyota owner (compacts), but if I were in the market for a large vehicle, I think I'd go domestic. > 4 years? that would average out to 48-60M miles. About the useful life > span of a F-150 Unfortunately for her, she didn't find out how long it may have lasted. Natalie > "Wickeddoll" ... > : [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > : > : Natalie > And most idjits don't keep an F-150 long enough for any real problems to > show up. Check the resale value on an F-150. It dives > like a submarine as it rolls off the lot. I kept my last F150 for 14 years. Sold it in less than a week for my asking price. I think the total I spent on repairs over the period was under $500. Ed Just had my new Tundra delivered today. Have the vibration/rumble a light shifting. Gotta call dealer to see if I should swap it out o have it fixed. Selling dealer is 200 miles away. I smell TROUBLE!!!! -- deanomean |
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