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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / November 2007

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"Laced" gas.

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---MIKE--- - 29 Nov 2007 14:38 GMT
I asked a local store why his gas was $.25 higher than the gas in the
central part of the state.  He said that his gas was not "laced" with
methanol like the gas in the central part.  I find this hard to believe.
I thought that "laced: gas had to be called ethanol and so labelled at
the pump.  (The store owned said methanol rather than ethanol).  He also
claimed that the "laced" gas gave 2 MPG less mileage so the extra cost
for his gas was evened out by this.  Is this possible?

                 ---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44° 15'  N - Elevation 1580')
Ph@Boy - 29 Nov 2007 14:52 GMT
> I asked a local store why his gas was $.25 higher than the gas in the
> central part of the state.  He said that his gas was not "laced" with
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>> In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>  >> (44° 15'  N - Elevation 1580')

Please tell us you did not purchase anything from this person.
C. E. White - 29 Nov 2007 15:38 GMT
I asked a local store why his gas was $.25 higher than the gas in the
central part of the state.  He said that his gas was not "laced" with
methanol like the gas in the central part.  I find this hard to
believe.
I thought that "laced: gas had to be called ethanol and so labelled at
the pump.  (The store owned said methanol rather than ethanol).  He
also
claimed that the "laced" gas gave 2 MPG less mileage so the extra cost
for his gas was evened out by this.  Is this possible?

It seems to me that the store owner is confused and trying to justify
charging a higher price by repeating bad information. At the very
best, he is selling gasoline with 2% more energy per gallon. This
doesn't seem to be enough to justify an 8% higher price.

According to the US fuel requirements map (see
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/GFM/Files/US_Gasoline_Map.pdf ),
Gasoline dealers in the four counties in the southeast corner of New
Hampshire are required to sell reformulated gasoline referred to as
Northern RFG w/Ethanol. This gasoline includes around 6% ethanol. This
blend will have about 2% less energy per gallon than "standard"
gasoline. I doubt you would be able to tell the difference in fuel
economy unless you keep very detailed records, and even then I suspect
other effects might mask the difference (unless you are driving a
really old car with a carburetor). It is not likely that any "modern"
car has the mileage affected by 2 mpg. I suppose an older car with a
carburetor might have the mixture screwed up enough to affect the
mileage by a measurable amount. But any car sold in the US in the last
15 years can handle reformulated gasoline.

I am not sure what is considered the central part of New Hampshire,
but it looks to me like the dealers in the central, western, and
northern portions of New Hampshire are not required to sell
reformulated gasoline. Of course, it is possible that they do sell the
Northern RFG w/Ethanol blend because of logistics. However, gasoline
sold in New Hampshire does not include methanol and never has. Back
before 2004, it did include MBTE, but that was banned in many
locations, and ethanol is now being used instead in areas that require
oxygenated fuels.

See

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/epa_launches_ta.html

Ed
Mike hunt - 29 Nov 2007 16:06 GMT
Ethanol does not have the same amount of energy, in the same cylinder charge
as gasoline, so yes MPG will be less

I asked a local store why his gas was $.25 higher than the gas in the
central part of the state.  He said that his gas was not "laced" with
methanol like the gas in the central part.  I find this hard to believe.
I thought that "laced: gas had to be called ethanol and so labelled at
the pump.  (The store owned said methanol rather than ethanol).  He also
claimed that the "laced" gas gave 2 MPG less mileage so the extra cost
for his gas was evened out by this.  Is this possible?

                 ---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44° 15'  N - Elevation 1580')
Bruce L. Bergman - 29 Nov 2007 19:09 GMT
>I asked a local store why his gas was $.25 higher than the gas in the
>central part of the state.  He said that his gas was not "laced" with
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>    In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>   (44° 15'  N - Elevation 1580')

 My "Bullshit Meter" is pegged so hard it's about to bend the needle.

 First, they would more likely be using Ethanol (grain alcohol) and
not Methanol (wood alcohol) - which is very poisonous, rather
corrosive, and requires special fuel system components to handle
safely.  You can put an Ethanol blend into older cars without too many
problems, but fill anything older than the 1980's with Methanol and it
will rip things up on the inside of the fuel tank, hoses, pumps and
carburetor.  The older rubber blends can't handle it.

 The few who do use methanol say they add "co-solvents" to prevent
fuel system damage, but they probably bought them from the guy who
invented the "500 MPG Carburetor the Oil Companies Bought and Buried".
IOW, don't believe everything you read in an advertising brochure -
they're trying to sell it, not be honest and objective.

 Second, sounds like a load of pure Bullshit.  The ethanol and
methanol blends both cost more to make because of the higher cost of
feedstock agriculture, making, transporting, handling and blending in
the alcohol, any additives needed - if anything, all other things
being equal his prices (without alcohol) should be lower.

 And Third, if the EPA and State says they have to sell an emissions
blended gasoline in that region, they have to sell an emissions
blended gasoline.  There aren't any loopholes I'm aware of for that.
 
 If this local store is a dealer of a nationally branded chain, the
chain dictates his prices - they tell him how much this load of fuel
costs him wholesale, and what price he has to sell it for retail -
there might be a few pennies leeway, but he is given a minimum and
maximum.  Go outside the limits, and he gets no more fuel.

 The branded stations all practice "Zone Pricing" against each other,
it's a big chess match and the franchised dealers are just pawns in
the game.  Zone Pricing means the price is higher where the traffic
will bear it, at the off-ramps of the Interstates and along main
highways where people buy on convenience and not price....

 Lower at the back-streets stations with lower operating costs and
draw their business from locals who are more 'price sensitive'...

 And much higher prices at the rural stations that don't get the
traffic and have much higher delivery and service costs.  Costs the
same per mile (time, wear and fuel) to run the delivery tank truck, so
that puts the guy 500 miles from the nearest pipeline and regional
terminal (tank farm) at a distinct price disadvantage compared to the
stations in larger towns.

 And every time the rural station needs the dispensers or equipment
repaired they have to pay the technician extra travel time, and often
for a second trip to bring the repair parts.

 Independent stations face the same pricing pressures - they have to
buy their gas at the 'Spot Market' price which may be higher than what
the major companies sell the fuel to their branded stations, plus the
delivery costs.  And they have to mark it up enough to pay the help,
the rent, and the power bill.

 Some independent chains are big enough, have the capital to invest,
and have consistent enough sales they can buy much of their fuel on
contract or the Futures Market and control their wholesale prices
somewhat.  But the true independents have nowhere to store the gas if
sales droop.

 Last time the Spot Market price for gas spiked through the roof a
few years back, one Los Angeles area independent (USA Petroleum)
shuttered their stations and furloughed their people - they had to
sell for a lot more than the branded station across the street (50c a
gallon and more) and people simply weren't buying.  Makes no sense to
pay someone to sit and watch an empty station.

   --<< Bruce >>--
Jeff - 29 Nov 2007 21:42 GMT
<...>

>   If this local store is a dealer of a nationally branded chain, the
> chain dictates his prices - they tell him how much this load of fuel
> costs him wholesale, and what price he has to sell it for retail -
> there might be a few pennies leeway, but he is given a minimum and
> maximum.  Go outside the limits, and he gets no more fuel.

Bull. A person can sell the fuel at whatever price he pleases. You want
to charge $20 per gallon? Go ahead. How  about 0.2 cents? (5 gallons per
cent)? Go ahead.

The refinery may not set your price. That would be illegal.

>   The branded stations all practice "Zone Pricing" against each other,
> it's a big chess match and the franchised dealers are just pawns in
> the game.  Zone Pricing means the price is higher where the traffic
> will bear it, at the off-ramps of the Interstates and along main
> highways where people buy on convenience and not price....

The zone pricing is for the cost of the fuel paid by the station.
Obviously, the station has to charge more, like $0.10 plus a few cents
for profit. Obviously, if the station is owned by a refinery, the
refinery will set the price or at least the price range for the manager.
But a lot of stations that sell branded gas are independently owned.

>   Lower at the back-streets stations with lower operating costs and
> draw their business from locals who are more 'price sensitive'...

And from locals who are not price sensitive.

Jeff
Coyoteboy - 29 Nov 2007 22:57 GMT
may not set your price. That would be illegal.

Might be illegal, doesnt mean it doesnt happen! Hence numerous price-fixing
scams across the UK that are currently being prosecuted.
Scott in Florida - 29 Nov 2007 23:06 GMT
>may not set your price. That would be illegal.
>
>Might be illegal, doesnt mean it doesnt happen! Hence numerous price-fixing
>scams across the UK that are currently being prosecuted.

What is the price of gas in the UK these days?

Signature

Scott in  Florida

Coyoteboy - 30 Nov 2007 00:21 GMT
> What is the price of gas in the UK these days?

Grrr. £1.05 a litre, or £1.14 for Optimax. So thats about £4.30 per US
gallon, silly mixing £ with US gallons, so at current approx rates....$8.60
a US gallon.
Coyoteboy - 30 Nov 2007 00:25 GMT
"Coyoteboy" <coyoteboyuk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> Grrr. £1.05 a litre, or £1.14 for Optimax. So thats about £4.30 per US
> gallon, silly mixing £ with US gallons, so at current approx
> rates....$8.60 a US gallon.
And thats up North where its cheaper and we race whippets and eat only pies.
Go down south and its 1.10 a litre for the normal stuff and 1.20 for opti.
Check about a bit and you can get no-name normal fuel up north for 1.03 but
its usually so far away you use more fuel than you save cash.
Roadrunner NG - 30 Nov 2007 13:05 GMT
No "Good Ole Boyz" ridin around in empty pick-ups there I bet?

> "Coyoteboy" <coyoteboyuk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> Grrr. £1.05 a litre, or £1.14 for Optimax. So thats about £4.30 per US
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> opti. Check about a bit and you can get no-name normal fuel up north for
> 1.03 but its usually so far away you use more fuel than you save cash.
Scott in Florida - 30 Nov 2007 00:37 GMT
>> What is the price of gas in the UK these days?
>
>Grrr. £1.05 a litre, or £1.14 for Optimax. So thats about £4.30 per US
>gallon, silly mixing £ with US gallons, so at current approx rates....$8.60
>a US gallon.

Dahhhhhhhhhhhmmmmm

Signature

Scott in  Florida

Coyoteboy - 30 Nov 2007 01:24 GMT
"Scott in Florida" <JustAskl@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>Grrr. £1.05 a litre, or £1.14 for Optimax. So thats about £4.30 per US
>>gallon, silly mixing £ with US gallons, so at current approx
>>rates....$8.60
>>a US gallon.
>
> Dahhhhhhhhhhhmmmmm

And for this reason alone my Celica is now declared off-road until I get a
job where I can afford a car that does >15mpg! I used to be able to run it
on a student budget. Now all I can do is look for a cheap diesel van that
gets 50+mpg, and then  run it on veg oil (which is now legal in the UK, up
to 2500 litres a year, at ~50p a litre from the supermarket!). Diesel,
incidentally, is 1.09 a litre!
Scott in Florida - 30 Nov 2007 01:39 GMT
>"Scott in Florida" <JustAskl@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>Grrr. £1.05 a litre, or £1.14 for Optimax. So thats about £4.30 per US
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>to 2500 litres a year, at ~50p a litre from the supermarket!). Diesel,
>incidentally, is 1.09 a litre!

That's one of the reasons I keep my '92 Corolla Wagon.  It is easy on gas.

I'd love to have a diesel engine in my old wagon.

Signature

Scott in  Florida

Mike hunt - 30 Nov 2007 16:56 GMT
It is 'legal in the US as well, provide you pay the road use taxes placed on
diesel fuel in you state

> "Scott in Florida" <JustAskl@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>Grrr. £1.05 a litre, or £1.14 for Optimax. So thats about £4.30 per US
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> to 2500 litres a year, at ~50p a litre from the supermarket!). Diesel,
> incidentally, is 1.09 a litre!
Jeff - 30 Nov 2007 00:42 GMT
> may not set your price. That would be illegal.
>
> Might be illegal, doesnt mean it doesnt happen! Hence numerous price-fixing
> scams across the UK that are currently being prosecuted.

I meant in the US. I don't know what happens in the UK.

Jeff
Coyoteboy - 30 Nov 2007 01:21 GMT
>> may not set your price. That would be illegal.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Jeff

I suspect, as good as the US is, you aren't immune to a little "supply it at
this price or you might find you get none or "it costs you more than your
neighbours sale price next time".
Jeff - 30 Nov 2007 01:48 GMT
>>> may not set your price. That would be illegal.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> this price or you might find you get none or "it costs you more than your
> neighbours sale price next time".

Immune or not, that would be against the law.

Jeff
Coyoteboy - 30 Nov 2007 02:09 GMT
>>>> may not set your price. That would be illegal.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Jeff

I sense we are going round in circles here. ;-)
 
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