Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / February 2008
Malfunction indicator?
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Steve - 10 Dec 2007 13:55 GMT Have a 2003 Highlander. The "malfunction indicator lamp" has been on for a couple days. The manual says "If the fuel tank is not empty or the fuel tank cap is not loose, there is a problem somewhere in the engine, emission control system, automatic transmission electrical system, or warning light system itself. Contact your dealer to service the problem."
Sure hate going to the dealer if I don't have to, and haven't seen any problems other than the light being on. Just wondering whether this is really something to worry about...
 Signature Hospitality is making people feel at home when you wish they were.
...Garrison Keillor
C. E. White - 10 Dec 2007 14:02 GMT > Have a 2003 Highlander. The "malfunction indicator lamp" has been on > for a couple days. The manual says "If the fuel tank is not empty or [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > is > really something to worry about... Unless you have someone read the fault codes, there is no way you can determine how serious it may be. A loose gas cap will turn on the light, so will a failing O2 sensor. As long as the light is not flashing, you have some leeway (a flashing MIL indicates a problem that needs immediate attention to prevent damage to another part of the system). If the problem was a loose gas cap, the light will go off after a few drive cycles. If it is a more serious problem it will stay on. Some discount auto parts stores will read the fault codes for free (AutoZone in my area is one). You could have them read the code for you and then come back for more advice.
Ed
Steve - 12 Dec 2007 19:49 GMT >Unless you have someone read the fault codes, there is no way you can >determine how serious it may be. A loose gas cap will turn on the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >free (AutoZone in my area is one). You could have them read the code >for you and then come back for more advice. Ed Thanks Ed. Stopped at an auto supply store and had the code read -
Bank 1, Sensor 2 - downstream oxygen sensor
Not sure what this means, or how serious it might be...
 Signature Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are not sure that we are doubly sure.
...Reinhold Niebuhr
Tegger - 12 Dec 2007 22:17 GMT Steve <hgd@wsx.inv> wrote in news:rke0m3lmga5u1l86ucmlc0bqf7ambp87e2@ 4ax.com:
>>Unless you have someone read the fault codes, there is no way you can >>determine how serious it may be. A loose gas cap will turn on the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Not sure what this means, or how serious it might be... You've only given half the text. There's more.
The text half you've given tells the location of the device that is supposedly bad. The text half that's missing says what's wrong with it.
You need to give the alphanumeric code. It will be something on the order of P0141, P0133, that sort of thing. The full text can be determined from the code.
 Signature Tegger
Steve - 12 Dec 2007 22:45 GMT >> Bank 1, Sensor 2 - downstream oxygen sensor
>You've only given half the text. There's more. >The text half you've given tells the location of the device that is >supposedly bad. The text half that's missing says what's wrong with it. >You need to give the alphanumeric code. It will be something on the order >of P0141, P0133, that sort of thing. The full text can be determined from >the code. Ugh, that's all the guy gave me. Guess I'll hafta go back...
 Signature Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are not sure that we are doubly sure.
...Reinhold Niebuhr
Steve - 18 Dec 2007 07:39 GMT >> Thanks Ed. Stopped at an auto supply store and had the code read - >> Bank 1, Sensor 2 - downstream oxygen sensor [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >of P0141, P0133, that sort of thing. The full text can be determined from >the code. I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, but it's not critical. Dunno if I should worry about this or just let it go for now...
 Signature Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are not sure that we are doubly sure.
...Reinhold Niebuhr
aarcuda69062 - 18 Dec 2007 14:20 GMT > >> Thanks Ed. Stopped at an auto supply store and had the code read - > >> Bank 1, Sensor 2 - downstream oxygen sensor [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > but it's not critical. Dunno if I should worry about this or just let > it go for now... "The guy" is wrong. P0141 is a O2 sensor heater code, definitely worth fixing.
Steve - 18 Dec 2007 15:40 GMT >> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. >> The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >"The guy" is wrong. P0141 is a O2 sensor heater code, definitely >worth fixing. Thanks. Is there detail somewhere on what this means, and what it might cost to fix?
 Signature Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are not sure that we are doubly sure.
...Reinhold Niebuhr
Tegger - 18 Dec 2007 23:28 GMT Steve <hgd@wsx.inv> wrote in news:4dqfm3d247j3rbu4b39k8sgn0fsrrmh174@ 4ax.com:
>>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. >>> The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks. Is there detail somewhere on what this means, and what it > might cost to fix? Oxygen sensors are fully functional only once they reach a certain temperature (about 750F).
It used to be that exhaust gas heat was relied upon to heat the sensor up to its proper temperature. However, under certain conditions it was possible for the sensor's temperature to fall below optimum if exhaust gas alone was the heat source. For this reason oxygen sensors were given their own source of heat.
Oxygen sensor heaters have a wicked job to do and it's common for them to fail. The only cure is replacement of the entire sensor. After ascertaining there are no wiring problems, that is...
The cost? I'd guess on the order of $250-$300, plus tax. Don't try to save money by using aftermarket parts. OEM is more expensive, but will last longer.
 Signature Tegger
Steve - 19 Dec 2007 00:46 GMT >Oxygen sensors are fully functional only once they reach a certain >temperature (about 750F). [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >money by using aftermarket parts. OEM is more expensive, but will last >longer. Thanks Tegger. Is this maybe one of those thingies that might be covered under the extended emissions system warranty?
 Signature Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are not sure that we are doubly sure.
...Reinhold Niebuhr
Ray O - 19 Dec 2007 05:05 GMT >>Oxygen sensors are fully functional only once they reach a certain >>temperature (about 750F). [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Thanks Tegger. Is this maybe one of those thingies that might be > covered under the extended emissions system warranty? The O2 sensor may be covered under the emissions warranty if its failure causes the vehicle to fail an emissions test.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Tegger - 19 Dec 2007 12:35 GMT >>Oxygen sensors are fully functional only once they reach a certain >>temperature (about 750F). [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Thanks Tegger. Is this maybe one of those thingies that might be > covered under the extended emissions system warranty? Oxygen sensors in your car are covered for 2 years or 24K miles (49 state). In California it's 3 years or 50K miles. Looks like this one will be on your dime.
 Signature Tegger
Steve - 24 Jan 2008 21:27 GMT >> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. >> The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >"The guy" is wrong. P0141 is a O2 sensor heater code, definitely >worth fixing. Just had it done. Ugh, cost $188 parts plus $204 labor. Pretty annoying item to hafta replace, seems like they shouldn't be making a big profit on this...
 Signature In 1969, I published a small book on Humility. It was a pioneering work which has not, to my knowledge, been superseded.
...Lord Longford
Tegger - 24 Jan 2008 23:28 GMT Steve <hgd@wsx.inv> wrote in news:9j0ip3heo5s3g2eisa27q2a23coqt33fcp@ 4ax.com:
>>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. >>> The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > annoying item to hafta replace, seems like they shouldn't be making a > big profit on this... Hey, I was fairly close with my price guess.
And the problem is now fixed?
 Signature Tegger
Steve - 25 Jan 2008 00:39 GMT >>>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. >>>> The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Hey, I was fairly close with my price guess. >And the problem is now fixed? Well, the light is off, but who knows whether anything was really wrong or was fixed...
 Signature In 1969, I published a small book on Humility. It was a pioneering work which has not, to my knowledge, been superseded.
...Lord Longford
Tegger - 25 Jan 2008 00:50 GMT >>>>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code >>>>> P0141. The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Well, the light is off, but who knows whether anything was really > wrong or was fixed... If the light doesn't come back on with the same code, it was truly fixed.
Really.
 Signature Tegger
Jeff Strickland - 24 Jan 2008 23:47 GMT >>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. >>> The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > annoying item to hafta replace, seems like they shouldn't be making a > big profit on this... $200 for labor!!! I hope you got a kiss and a dozen roses because they rolled you over the fender and had their way with you.
Replacing an O2 Sensor is similar to replacing a spark plug, all you need a socket wrench. (It is a special socket, but it only costs 10 or 15 bucks ...)
Steve - 25 Jan 2008 00:50 GMT >>>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. >>>> The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Replacing an O2 Sensor is similar to replacing a spark plug, all you need a >socket wrench. (It is a special socket, but it only costs 10 or 15 bucks Ugh, I figured it might be something like that, but they were already into me for $100+ for the diagnostics (allegedly to see if it was just a malfunctioning light), and by that time it was just too much trouble to take it elsewhere. I have this survey form from Toyota, wonder if complaining will accomplish anything...
 Signature In 1969, I published a small book on Humility. It was a pioneering work which has not, to my knowledge, been superseded.
...Lord Longford
Tegger - 25 Jan 2008 01:34 GMT >>>>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code >>>>> P0141. The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > to take it elsewhere. I have this survey form from Toyota, wonder if > complaining will accomplish anything... $200 converts to just under two hours labor at the usual dealer shop rate.
Have you asked (nicely, because you're trying to get a question answered, not lynch somebody) what exactly took them two hours and why two hours were charged?
 Signature Tegger
Jeff Strickland - 25 Jan 2008 01:38 GMT >>>>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. >>>>> The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > to take it elsewhere. I have this survey form from Toyota, wonder if > complaining will accomplish anything... For future reference, the OBD II computer is designed pretty well. If it says it hurts somewhere, you can be pretty sure that is a good place to apply first aid cream. Some systems will throw out a code that means, MALFUNCTION, then another code in the same family that says TOO <much or little> of something, and perhaps another code in the same family that dialsl in even tighter. There are not three things wrong in this instance, there is one thing wrong that manifested itself three times.
The MIL seldom malfunctions, and it has its own code if it does. From what I remember, you had one code -- P0141. This has a definition, and there is really nothing other than the heating element within the O2 Sensor that can trigger that code.
If you had a code that said TOO RICH or TOO LEAN, these can both come from a faulty O2 Sensor, but they can also come from other problems, and this is where the system gets tricky. But, as I said earlier, a sensor might throw multiple codes, and there is really only onne problem. The challenge is to decipher the codes that are generated, and figure out which one can cause the others in a ripple effect. If there was a real problem with the mixture, then there would be a code that suggested a problem with an injector, for example. Personally, I give weight to the hostile environment that a part might live in -- an O2 Sensor lives in a much more hostile environment than a fuel injector, the exhaust is far hotter than the intake or fuel rail because the O2 sensor lives on the side of the exhaust system where heat flows by unabated, and the injectors live in the head, with coolant pulling heat away -- so when the computer tells me the O2 Sensor is not doing something, my first instinct is the hostile environment has finally caught up to the life expectancy of the sensor.
I also tend to give the wiring a clean bill of health for a few more years. The first OBD II cars and trucks are just over ten years old, and assuming reasonable care the wires should be good for another 5 year sor so. I have an '81 Jeep, and the wires are still pretty good on that, surely the wires on a '96 Anything should be okay (until there is proof there is a problem). Obviously, while working on stuff, you will look at the wires to be sure they are not broken or shorted, but I do not spend much time chasing wires on my initial attempt to fix stuff. The problem with most wires is at the connector where the sensor is plugged in.
In any case, my gut instinct is that you got raped. Sorry ...
Steve - 27 Jan 2008 02:31 GMT >>>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. >>>> The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Replacing an O2 Sensor is similar to replacing a spark plug, all you need a >socket wrench. (It is a special socket, but it only costs 10 or 15 bucks What should the parts cost? Would any dealer charge this much, or do you think my particular dealer is outta line?
 Signature In 1969, I published a small book on Humility. It was a pioneering work which has not, to my knowledge, been superseded.
...Lord Longford
Steve - 07 Feb 2008 15:10 GMT >>>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. >>>> The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Replacing an O2 Sensor is similar to replacing a spark plug, all you need a >socket wrench. (It is a special socket, but it only costs 10 or 15 bucks Asked the dealer about this, here's their response:
I looked into the repair - $100 of the labor charge was for the diagnosis to find the failed O2 sensor, and the remaining is for the replacement and then retesting to ensure that the failed O2 sensor was the only cause of the check engine light.
 Signature The art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time, but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.
...Dorothy Nevill
Tomes - 08 Feb 2008 02:47 GMT "Steve" ...
>>>>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. >>>>> The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > replacement and then retesting to ensure that the failed O2 sensor was > the only cause of the check engine light. So it is a hundred bucks to plug in the code reader and another hundred for simply replacing and then plugging in the code reader again. This is why I try to do as much as I can on my own and ask a lot of questions here when I need to before I do it. Tomes
Sam in Savannah - 10 Feb 2008 00:40 GMT > "Steve" ... >>>>>> I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > questions here when I need to before I do it. > Tomes Well, you have to have a code reader to begin with. The good ones aren't cheap.
Tomes - 10 Feb 2008 16:11 GMT "Sam in Savannah"...
> "Tomes" ... >> "Steve" ... [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Well, you have to have a code reader to begin with. The good ones aren't > cheap. I think a cheap one will do. One just needs to read the code and then ask what it means here. The point made here is that it takes about 5 minutes to read a code, and then maybe another 5 minutes to look up what it means if the crack mechanic does not know already.
And, yep, I have a reader, got it for Christmas some time ago. A vey handy and cost effective thing to have. Tomes
Ray O - 10 Feb 2008 16:49 GMT <snipped>>
>> Well, you have to have a code reader to begin with. The good ones aren't >> cheap. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > handy and cost effective thing to have. > Tomes I bought the cheapest Actron OBD II code reader, and while it reads the standard SAE codes, I wish I had bought a little more sophisticated model that could read sensor values and non-standard codes.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Tegger - 18 Dec 2007 15:19 GMT >>> Thanks Ed. Stopped at an auto supply store and had the code read - >>> Bank 1, Sensor 2 - downstream oxygen sensor [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I stopped back at the store and had it read again, it's code P0141. > The guy said this affects the efficiency of the catalytic converter, He's probably confusing the code he saw with P0420, which /is/ a cat efficiency code.
> but it's not critical. Dunno if I should worry about this or just let > it go for now... Since it's just the oxygen sensor heater (as aarcuda points out), you can let it go for now. The MIL will keep lighting up, and you likely won't pass any smog check you might have to meet on account of the light and the stored DTC.
 Signature Tegger
Jeff Strickland - 10 Dec 2007 23:28 GMT > Have a 2003 Highlander. The "malfunction indicator lamp" has been on > for a couple days. The manual says "If the fuel tank is not empty or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > problems other than the light being on. Just wondering whether this is > really something to worry about... Autozone will pull codes for free, or hand you the scan tool and you can pull them yourself. There is no reason to visit the dealer and PAY them to pull codes.
I've long held that the dealership should pull codes for free at the Service Writer's desk. If the gas cap is loose, they will send you on your way thinking you got free service. If the gas cap is not the cause, odds favor them getting the service call out of the "free service". In one instance, they did nothing that deserves payment, and in the other they got a service call that pays them.
Until the dealer service department sees things my way, take your car to Autozone and get your codes read and reset for free. For the price the dealer charges to pull codes twice, you can almost buy your own code reader and pull codes as much as you want.
nm5k@wt.net - 11 Dec 2007 00:34 GMT > Until the dealer service department sees things my way, take your car to > Autozone and get your codes read and reset for free. For the price the > dealer charges to pull codes twice, you can almost buy your own code reader > and pull codes as much as you want. Myself, I usually prefer not to reset the codes in the OBD2 systems. That way it will tell you if the problem is fixed eventually. It will take a few drive cycles though, so I'd give it a while depending on the particular part in question. Of course, if you reset, it will still reset the light if the problem remains, but you have flushed all the recent history and settings, etc, if you reset. So it then has to relearn everything in the first few drive cycles via the various sensors. As an example, right after I got mine, I had a pump nozzle malfunction when getting gas, and it didn't click off. Gas spewed all over the side of the car, got gas in the little vent ports, etc. This sends gas down those vent tubes and floods the charcoal canister. It reduced the flow to a low value, and it tripped my light. In my case, I decided to just let it go and see if it would just dry out on it's own. And it did. It took maybe a month or two, but eventually it started to dry out, and quickened as it got warmer. The light went out one time, but came back on. Did it again later. This told me it was improving. Finally it went out, and has never come back on so far. I initially had the codes read at autozone, and had them reset. But it came right back on about a day later, and I decided to just leave it on and use it to tell me when there was good enough flow through the evap system. Once a OBD2 system sees that the problem is fixed, it will turn itself off after whatever number of drive cycles. I guess in the end it's about the same, but I don't have the puter having to relearn everything every time it's reset. Also, a fresh reset will fail an emission test in this state. Not that it matters for him, just a mention in case some consider resetting before taking a test.. That will bomb you in Tejas.. You must have some run history stored up. MK
Jeff Strickland - 11 Dec 2007 01:02 GMT >> Until the dealer service department sees things my way, take your car to >> Autozone and get your codes read and reset for free. For the price the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It will take a few drive cycles though, so I'd give it a while > depending on the particular part in question. I prefer to pull the codes and reset them. If the problem was fixed, the code will not return. No waiting ...
> Of course, if you reset, it will still reset the light if the problem > remains, but you have flushed all the recent history and settings, > etc, if you reset. So it then has to relearn everything in the first > few drive cycles via the various sensors. Resetting the error codes does not alter the settings that have been stored through the learning process.
nm5k@wt.net - 11 Dec 2007 04:05 GMT > Resetting the error codes does not alter the settings that have been stored > through the learning process. Yea, I think you all are right now that I think about it. I'm used to running the older honda and resetting the puter via the fuse box, or battery. That's good that it doesn't default the engine settings. MK
Retired VIP - 11 Dec 2007 01:26 GMT >> Until the dealer service department sees things my way, take your car to >> Autozone and get your codes read and reset for free. For the price the [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >history stored up. >MK I might be wrong about this but I don't think resetting the code memory in the cars computer does anything except clear the fault history. It won't, or at least shouldn't, cause the computer to forget the engine's run settings and shift points. Of course, if you remove a battery post, it will clear all of the computer's memory.
We were getting packed up and ready to leave our vacation spot in S.C. a couple of years ago. My wife took the car into town to return the house key to the rental agent and topped off the gas tank. She didn't get the cap on tight and it set the light. The light didn't reset over two days and about 800 miles of driving. A week after we got back home, my wife took the car to the dealer. He reset the code and told her it was a loose gas cap. Oh yes, he gave her a bill for $80 plus about $5 for supplies. The car was never taken to a service bay, the work was done by the Service Writer in the service lane.
Jack
Jeff - 11 Dec 2007 01:06 GMT > Have a 2003 Highlander. The "malfunction indicator lamp" has been on > for a couple days. The manual says "If the fuel tank is not empty or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > problems other than the light being on. Just wondering whether this is > really something to worry about... Go to autozone, get the codes from the OBDII read, write down all the codes, and get back to with them.
It's not something to worry about. However, it is something to investigate and find out what the problem is.
Jeff
johngdole@hotmail.com - 11 Dec 2007 01:57 GMT Go to Autozone or other local parts shops that offer free OBD-2 code reads. Write down the codes and let us know. You can google the codes too.
> Have a 2003 Highlander. The "malfunction indicator lamp" has been on > for a couple days. The manual says "If the fuel tank is not empty or [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > ...Garrison Keillor
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