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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / February 2008Synthetic for old Celica?
I want to use synthetic for my 200,000 miles Celica 3SFE engine. My ONLY reason for doing this is the LENGHTEN my time between oil changes, am one busy man. :) Don't care about anything else... WOULD I HAVE LEAK PROB? and if so I switch back to dino and everything would be fine right? No leak so far - knock-on-wood. Or should I well leave it alone? Toyota experts? > I want to use synthetic for my 200,000 miles Celica 3SFE engine. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Toyota experts? You should be fine with synthetic. The leaking problems went away as the oil makers changed their formulas. jeff > You should be fine with synthetic. The leaking problems went away as the > oil makers changed their formulas. > > jeff IMO, it is possible that synthetic oil could allow more oil to slip past the rings if you previously used conventional oil and your car has a lot of miles on it (with the associated engine wear).You might want to use at least a 10W-40 synthetic to lesson the chances of this happening. But there is also now a Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40 oil that you may want to consider since it contains a special seal conditioner to help recondition seals and prevent leaks. The slighter higher than normal weight will also minimize the oil from slipping past the rings. I think you could go up to 10,000 miles with Mobil 1 if you use a very good oil filter. But I would do my first change at 3000 miles after initially switching to a full synthetic, since it might loosen up some existing sludge in your engine (unless you are certain it is clean as a whistle). >I want to use synthetic for my 200,000 miles Celica 3SFE engine. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Toyota experts? How long do you want to lengthen the oil change interval? The synthetic should not cause leaks.  SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >How long do you want to lengthen the oil change interval? Ha-ha. Whatever ppl say + manufacturer's recommend then take the longest of all suggestions. That was my plan anyways. :) >>How long do you want to lengthen the oil change interval? > > Ha-ha. Whatever ppl say + manufacturer's recommend then take the > longest of all suggestions. That was my plan anyways. :) There are people who post in this group who know little about cars, lubricants, and automotive lubrication systems. If you want the engine to last, follow the automaker's oil change interval recommendations. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > There are people who post in this group who know little about cars, > lubricants, and automotive lubrication systems. If you want the engine to > last, follow the automaker's oil change interval recommendations. Since you do not work for a company that makes synthetic motor oils, and as I recall you don't use a full synthetic in your own cars (and generally think it is a waste of money), I don't think you are in a position to comment on the knowledge of others on the subject of oil change intervals for synthetic oils. It is certainly not correct that an oil change interval would be the same for a conventional and full synthetic oil. The only possible exception "might" be the oil filter, but if one uses a high quality filter (I typically use a Mobil 1 filter) and don't go crazy, one can go a bit beyond the manufacturer's recommendations for oil change interval (which are generally designed for conventional oils). Obviously, one would not recommend this while the car is still under warranty for purely contractual reasons. I am convinced (after much study of this subject) that anyone who drives more than 3000 miles on conventional oil (even if the manufacturer specifies 5000 mile intervals) is subjecting their engine to much more abuse than they would by using a full synthetic with 10,000 mile oil change intervals (if they use a high quality filter). >> There are people who post in this group who know little about cars, >> lubricants, and automotive lubrication systems. If you want the engine [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > comment on the knowledge of others on the subject of oil change intervals > for synthetic oils. No my experience is not with an oil company; it is with the automaker. Do you have work experience with an oil company or automaker? I do use synthetic in our three personal vehicles, but not because it saves money. I use it because I prefer to use quality parts and materials in my vehicles and follow the automaker's recommended oil change intervals, which for our vehicles is 5,000 miles. > It is certainly not correct that an oil change interval would be the same > for a conventional and full synthetic oil. The only possible exception [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > abuse than they would by using a full synthetic with 10,000 mile oil > change intervals (if they use a high quality filter). I am a little leery of "studies" by the oil companies, which have something to gain by showing an advantage from using their product. I would believe a long-term study of vehicles in a controlled and consumer use environments by an independent testing agency, automaker, or API but have yet to see one. The studies I have seen from sources that I consider credible without a hidden agenda do show performance and wear benefits from using synthetic oil, and that is why I use synthetic oil. From a cost standpoint, even at double the oil change interval, the math doesn't seem to work out with synthetic oil at triple the cost of conventional motor oil. Bottom line, I use synthetic oil because it is good stuff, not because it saves money. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > No my experience is not with an oil company; it is with the automaker. Do > you have work experience with an oil company or automaker? No. But I do have experience working for NASA, although that does not make me a rocket scientist. Likewise, your experience working for an automaker was not as an automotive engineer. The automaker you worked for does not recommend synthetic oils (although I don't think they recommend against it). A person who is knowledgable about motor oils could reasonably conclude that if the automaker specifies conventional oil, then their oil change interval is for conventional oil, and not for synthetic oil (it is not practical for them to differentiate, becasue it would be almost impossible for the automaker to know for sure what the customer used). Likewise, if one was using synthetic oil, one could theorectically go a bit longer between oil changes. Most auto makers in Europe have much longer oil change intevals than in the US, even for the exact same cars as sold in the US. > I do use synthetic in our three personal vehicles, but not because it > saves money. I use it because I prefer to use quality parts and materials > in my vehicles and follow the automaker's recommended oil change > intervals, which for our vehicles is 5,000 miles. That is strange (to put it mildly) since I don't recall you ever recommending synthetic oil. Is this a fairly recent turn of events? > I am a little leery of "studies" by the oil companies, which have > something to gain by showing an advantage from using their product. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > motor oil. Bottom line, I use synthetic oil because it is good stuff, not > because it saves money. I never said the study was by an oil company. I don't even see how it is in the best interests of an oil company to advocate prolonging oil changes. The other thing to remember is that the vehicle in question has 300,000 miles on it, all with conventional oil (I am presuming from the OP). If someone really, really wants to extend there oil change interval on a car with 300,000 miles, and they are using a full synthetic, I don't think 10,000 miles is unreasonable. I would not use a 10,000 mile interval on a newer car, but that is just my opinion. >> No my experience is not with an oil company; it is with the automaker. >> Do you have work experience with an oil company or automaker? > > No. But I do have experience working for NASA, although that does not make > me a rocket scientist. Likewise, your experience working for an automaker > was not as an automotive engineer. True, which is why I got information from the automotive engineers that designed the cars and engines. > The automaker you worked for does not recommend synthetic oils (although I > don't think they recommend against it). A person who is knowledgable about [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > That is strange (to put it mildly) since I don't recall you ever > recommending synthetic oil. Is this a fairly recent turn of events? I've been using synthetic oil for about two years. Although I use it for the reasons I stated, I don't actually recommend it because all those years of working with engineers has made me think like them. The recommendations I make in this group are very conservative. If I don't have personal knowledge or experience about a subject, I either do not make any recommendation or preface the recommendation with "in my opinion" or "I think." The customers who came to me for advice or information were looking for expert advice, and expect that advice or information to be correct and with a basis of knowledge far above what they get from their friends, relatives, neighbors, auto service chain, auto magazines, and even their dealers. In order to meet those expectations, I very quickly learned to differentiate what I *know* and what I *think* and if I didn't know, to go to the people in the organization who did know for information. >> I am a little leery of "studies" by the oil companies, which have >> something to gain by showing an advantage from using their product. I [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > think 10,000 miles is unreasonable. I would not use a 10,000 mile interval > on a newer car, but that is just my opinion. I don't doubt that synthetic oil provides ample lubrication well beyond the 5,000 mile mark, but besides providing lubrication, motor oil has to suspend the by-products of combustion, some of which are not captured by the oil filter. Those by-products are what make motor oil turn black over time. I change the oil in my vehicles myself, and the used synthetic oil coming out is just as black as with conventional oil, and I'm not convinced that it is a good idea to keep circulating the dirty oil through out the engine and oil filter. For example, if you were comparing two different dishwashing detergents in two sinkfuls of water, and detergent A could wash 50 dishes and detergent B could wash 100 dishes effectively, that would mean that the water in the sink with detergent B would be twice as dirty, even if you were filtering out all of the solid particles in the water. In the case of whatever is turning the oil black, perhaps it doesn't do any harm to have twice as much of it in the oil, but I personally do not *know* whether that is true or not so I take the safe route and stick to the factory recommendations for oil change intervals. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > True, which is why I got information from the automotive engineers that > designed the cars and engines. I doubt that you talk to them directly, since the engines are designed in Japan, even if they are made in USA. But anyway, I get my information from the same people, but not necessarily just from Toyota engineers. Also, I get the "unofficial" and "off-the-record" opinion, and not the company policy. > I've been using synthetic oil for about two years. Although I use it for > the reasons I stated, I don't actually recommend it because all those [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > didn't know, to go to the people in the organization who did know for > information. This is not a very convincing reason for you to use synthetic in your own personal vehicles, but recommending conventional oil for everyone else. The obvious reason for your behavior is that Toyota does not specify synthetic, and you are toeing the company line rather than giving good advice. Toyota does not want to specify synthetic because that will be competitors an advantage (the Honda sales person will tell you how much more money you will have to pay for synthetic oil changes). > I don't doubt that synthetic oil provides ample lubrication well beyond > the 5,000 mile mark, but besides providing lubrication, motor oil has to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > personally do not *know* whether that is true or not so I take the safe > route and stick to the factory recommendations for oil change intervals. Such hyperbole may be appropriate for a brand new vehicle, but is rather ridiculous for a vehicle with 300,000 miles on it. >> True, which is why I got information from the automotive engineers that >> designed the cars and engines. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > get the "unofficial" and "off-the-record" opinion, and not the company > policy. Since I no longer work for the company, I no longer talk to them directly. When I did work for the company, the Japanese engineers often came to our office when they wanted to visit dealers to check out customer cars because I was one of the few people in a field office that could speak Japanese. When Toyota's engineers want to study real world perfomance of the vehicles they designed, they contact district service managers and ask them to contact their dealers and ask them to bring their vehicles to the dealership on the days that they are visiting in return for a free maintenance check It was a lot easier for them to just call me and explain what they wanted in their native language than to have their request translated and then arrive at the dealership and find that someting was lost in translation. Yes, I'll admit that the information I provide does reflect Toyota's company policy. ;-) When people are looking for technical advice, I suspect that they often want the automaker's company policy or opinion, more than unofficial and off the record opinions. >> I've been using synthetic oil for about two years. Although I use it for >> the reasons I stated, I don't actually recommend it because all those [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > synthetic, and you are toeing the company line rather than giving good > advice. I think you are confusing my recommendations, probably because they are not always clear, and perhaps because you think that the only reason to use synthetic oil is to extend the oil change intervals. I am not saying that everyone should use conventional oil. I am saying that if one uses synthetic oil, one should still stick to the automaker's recommended oil change intervals. I think we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree. I guess people looking for advice can decide for themselves whether your advice, which is based on your research from various sources, watcing the guy at the quick change place change your oil from start to finish, and unofficial and off the record opinion, is good or better advice than mine, which is admittedly based on Toyota's company line and the engineers who designed the engines and who don't want Honda to have an advantage over Toyota in oil change recommendations. > Toyota does not want to specify synthetic because that will be competitors > an advantage (the Honda sales person will tell you how much more money you [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Such hyperbole may be appropriate for a brand new vehicle, but is rather > ridiculous for a vehicle with 300,000 miles on it. Why is it ridiculous? What is the difference in needing engine protection between a brand new vehicle and one with 300,000 miles? SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > When people are looking for technical advice, I suspect that they often > want the automaker's company policy or opinion, more than unofficial and > off the record opinions. Maybe you should re-read the OP. He has a "old Celica" with 300,000 miles. I think it is rather insulting to suggest he cannot read the owners manual with regard to oil change intervals. He wanted some "out of the box" advice for his particular situation. IMO, especially on this forum, we welcome "unofficial" and "off the record" opinions form informed sources. At the very least, you should have disclosed a long time ago that you were using synthetic oil in your own vehicles, while recommending conventional oil to everyone else. > I think you are confusing my recommendations, probably because they are > not always clear, and perhaps because you think that the only reason to > use synthetic oil is to extend the oil change intervals. I am not saying > that everyone should use conventional oil. I am saying that if one uses > synthetic oil, one should still stick to the automaker's recommended oil > change intervals. No, I have posted at least a hundred time on the subject of synthetic oil that there are many other benefits besides extended oil change intervals. Since most cars are still under warranty, it is usually a moot point anyway. However, I have also said (many times) that if one is using conventional oil, they should be changing every 3000 miles, so perhaps if one goes 5,000 miles with synthetic that is an extended oil changed interval. Synthetic oil protection of engine parts is vastly superior at 5000 miles (or even 7500 miles) than conventional oil is at 3000 miles. In any case, one should always comply with the manufacturer recommended oil change interval (which for my Toyota is 7500 miles) for a car under any kind of warranty. > <snip> ...which is admittedly based on Toyota's company line and the > engineers who designed the engines and who don't want Honda to have an > advantage over Toyota in oil change recommendations. Well we agree on that. The rest of what you said is a complete distortion of my background and what I said on this subject. > Why is it ridiculous? What is the difference in needing engine protection > between a brand new vehicle and one with 300,000 miles? An "old Celica" with 300,000 miles using conventional oil (I presume from OP) is out of warranty and has already had lots of engine wear, unlike a new car. Another factor is the value of the car and how much time and trouble one wants to put into it before it is scraped. I find your inability to comprehend the difference a bit shocking. Anyway, if one goes 7500 miles on conventional oil (the Toyota factory recommendation for an "old Celica"), then 10,000 miles on Mobil 1 (with a high quality filter) is not out of line for a an "old Celica" with 300,000 miles on it. >> When people are looking for technical advice, I suspect that they often >> want the automaker's company policy or opinion, more than unofficial and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > disclosed a long time ago that you were using synthetic oil in your own > vehicles, while recommending conventional oil to everyone else. Yes, perhaps I should have disclosed that I use synthetic oil. You keep coming back, reinforcing your perception that I was recommending conventional oil. I do not recommend conventional or, for that matter, synthetic oil. My recommendation is that one does not extend the oil change intervals beyond the automaker's recommendations, regardless of the oil used. >> I think you are confusing my recommendations, probably because they are >> not always clear, and perhaps because you think that the only reason to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > No, I have posted at least a hundred time on the subject of synthetic oil > that there are many other benefits besides extended oil change intervals. You should note that I have not refuted any of your posts regarding the benefits of synthetic oil besides the benefits of extended oil change intervals. The only part that I disagree with you on is that extending the oil change intervals is a benefit, and perhaps I misunderstood your interpretation of "extended." > Since most cars are still under warranty, it is usually a moot point > anyway. > > However, I have also said (many times) that if one is using conventional > oil, they should be changing every 3000 miles, so perhaps if one goes > 5,000 miles with synthetic that is an extended oil changed interval. I guess we had a difference in interpretation of what constitutes an "extended" oil change interval. My interpretation seems to be narrower, since I had considered anything beyond the factory's recommendation, as opposed to whatever interval people were using, to be "extended." Synthetic oil > protection of engine parts is vastly superior at 5000 miles (or even 7500 > miles) than conventional oil is at 3000 miles. In any case, one should > always comply with the manufacturer recommended oil change interval (which > for my Toyota is 7500 miles) for a car under any kind of warranty. >> <snip> ...which is admittedly based on Toyota's company line and the >> engineers who designed the engines and who don't want Honda to have an >> advantage over Toyota in oil change recommendations. > > Well we agree on that. The rest of what you said is a complete distortion > of my background and what I said on this subject. My distortion is unintentional. I thought you said in previous posts that you have done research on the subject of syntheitic oil from various sources and that you take your car to quick lube places because they allow you to watch your oil being changed, while the dealers near you do not. I apologize if I left other relevant automotive experience or background out. I merely meant to summarize the OP's choices for sources of information and opinions. >> Why is it ridiculous? What is the difference in needing engine >> protection between a brand new vehicle and one with 300,000 miles? > > An "old Celica" with 300,000 miles using conventional oil (I presume from > OP) is out of warranty and has already had lots of engine wear, unlike a > new car. An old engine with lots of engine wear will produce more blowby gases and therefore place more contaminants in the oil in a given mileage interval than an engine with less wear. While a good oil filter can remove the particulates, there are more particulates to remove in an older engine so the oil filter will theoretically reach its limit sooner, and so extending oil changes intervals seems to me to defy logic. I think synthetic oil will certainly help in an older engine, especially if it is not so worn that it is using oil and wasting the more expensive oil. Another factor is the value of the car and how much time and trouble > one wants to put into it before it is scraped. I find your inability to > comprehend the difference a bit shocking. We obviously have different viewpoints on the matter, and you seem to take a difference in opinion or a correction or clarification of facts as a personal attack and respond with personal insults. As I've said before, I think we should respectfully agree to disagree ;-) SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > <snip> > We obviously have different viewpoints on the matter, and you seem to take [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > As I've said before, I think we should respectfully agree to disagree ;-) > Ray O Personal insults? I just said your inability to differentiate between an "old Celica" with 300,000 miles and the requirements of most other people who ask questions on this newsgroup is "shocking" and "ridiculous." I don't regard those as personal insults. I was criticizing your posts, not you personally. However, now I will make a personal insult. I strongly disagree with your self-described "neutral" characterization of all your previous posts about synthetic vs. conventional oil. You should have disclosed that you use synthetic oil in your personal vehicles. That was a very serious lapse of judgment on your part, IMO. Apparently we don't disagree about the benefits of synthetic oil (since we both use it instead of conventional oil). What we do disagree about is what kind of advice one should give on this newsgroup, and we apparently disagree about requirements of "full disclosure" so that readers can make their own informed decisions based on all the facts. >I was criticizing your posts, not you >personally. Of all the people on this NG, you go after the most competent and helpful poster? How Dare You? SignatureScott in Florida >However, now I will make a personal insult. I strongly disagree with your >self-described "neutral" characterization of all your previous posts about [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >about requirements of "full disclosure" so that readers can make their own >informed decisions based on all the facts. What the hell are you talking about? You are making an arse out of yourself..... SignatureScott in Florida > What the hell are you talking about? > > You are making an arse out of yourself..... > > Scott in Florida I am talking about the fact that in all the posts he made about synthetic vs. conventional oil, he never once disclosed that he uses synthetic oil in his 3 personal vehicles. This is a fact that once would not have surmised by the content of his previous posts on this subject. >> What the hell are you talking about? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > his 3 personal vehicles. This is a fact that once would not have surmised by > the content of his previous posts on this subject. Whooosh. The sound of reality going right over Scotty's empty head. >>> What the hell are you talking about? >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Whooosh. The sound of reality going right over Scotty's empty head. You are making an arse out of yourself, Witless. Not only that...you owe me a half million dollars and are afraid to face me. What a coward..... SignatureScott in Florida >> What the hell are you talking about? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >his 3 personal vehicles. This is a fact that once would not have surmised by >the content of his previous posts on this subject. It has NOTHING to do with his advice. NOTHING. SignatureScott in Florida >> <snip> >> We obviously have different viewpoints on the matter, and you seem to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > synthetic oil in your personal vehicles. That was a very serious lapse of > judgment on your part, IMO. As I've admitted before, and I'll admit again, in hindsight, I should have disclosed that I use synthetic oil in my personal vehicles. At the time, I didn't even think about what type of oil I use because I considered it to be anecdotal and not relevant, and nobody asked. My mindset was still in "factory rep" mode, where I thought about the hundreds of thousands of Toyotas operating in our region rather than my limited experience with my personal vehicles. In hindsight, it would have appeared more neutral if I had disclosed that I use synthetic oil. > Apparently we don't disagree about the benefits of synthetic oil (since we > both use it instead of conventional oil). What we do disagree about is > what kind of advice one should give on this newsgroup, and we apparently > disagree about requirements of "full disclosure" so that readers can make > their own informed decisions based on all the facts. Fair enough! If someone wants the factory's advice or point of view, I'll provide it, and if someone wants "out of the box" advice, you can provide it! I don't think the advice and information I provide is wrong, inaccurate, or not credible very often, at least I hope it isn't! Perhaps the people I've provided bad automotive advice to can pipe in so I can have an opportunity to correct that advice, and in the interest of full disclosure, the people I've provided good advice to can also share so I know if I'm on the right track. I didn't think anyone cared about what Ray O uses in his personal vehicles, but if anyone thinks that what I use is relevant to a discussion, ask away! BTW, I use Castrol Syntec 5W-30 and Toyota OEM oil filters in our '97 Avalon with 130,000 miles, '03 Sequoia with 60,000 miles, and '01 LS 430 with 80,000 miles, changed at 5,000 miles intervals. I change the oil myself, and a friend brings my old oil to the dealership where he works for disposal. I use conventional straight 30 weight in the lawnmower and snowblower and change the oil once a season. I pretty much use only OEM parts because I know their quality, and the local Toyota dealer is open until midnight on weekdays so it is very convenient for me. I use aftermarket windshield wiper blades and refills (Exact Fit) because they have been "good enough," and the other aftermarket parts I can think of that I use are Weathertech floor mats, which last longer than the OEM Toyota mats I ordered for the Sequoia, where the seam split in front of the accelerator pedal from the driver's heel. Coolant is Toyota red in our vehicles and I have some Peak or Prestone in the garage for taking care of the people without Toyotas who ask me to look at their cars. Windshield washer fluid is the cheapest stuff I can find on sale to buy a case of in the spring. Tires are a mixed bag - whatever has the highest tread wear rating on display in whatever store I happen to shop for tires at in a brand I've heard of that isn't Firestone. I generally prefer Die-Hard batteries from Sears or Interstate from the local Toyota dealer, although I had a cheap no-name brand installed in the Avalon this month when it was below zero, my son had to get to class, and the local gas station was fast. I paid $97 for 1 hour labor to the gas station, which is about the same as the Toyota dealer. If I didn't have an appointment with a client, I would have swapped the battery out myself, saved the labor charge, and got a better battery. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >As I've admitted before, and I'll admit again, in hindsight, I should have >disclosed that I use synthetic oil in my personal vehicles. I totally disagree!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What you use in your own personal cars is not relevant! You state and support the Toyota recommendations for oil changes. Toyota does not recommend extended oil changes. Toyota does not require synthetic oil. Your advice is sound. SignatureScott in Florida >>As I've admitted before, and I'll admit again, in hindsight, I should have >>disclosed that I use synthetic oil in my personal vehicles. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Your advice is sound. I'm not changing my advice regarding oil changes! I don't always follow my own advice, and the shoemaker's children go shoeless, but I do follow my own advice on oil changes ;-) I didn't think that what I use in my personal cars is relevant either, which is why I didn't think of it. Of course, if it was THAT relevant to someone, they could have asked sooner! SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>As I've admitted before, and I'll admit again, in hindsight, I should have >>>disclosed that I use synthetic oil in my personal vehicles. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >is why I didn't think of it. Of course, if it was THAT relevant to someone, >they could have asked sooner! Agreed. SignatureScott in Florida > I'm not changing my advice regarding oil changes! I don't always follow > my own advice, and the shoemaker's children go shoeless, but I do follow [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > which is why I didn't think of it. Of course, if it was THAT relevant to > someone, they could have asked sooner! Here is the problem Ray. On the one hand you say that you explain the official Toyota recommendations on oil changes, and on the other hand you admitted (previously in this same thread) that Toyota's recommendation is based partly on the fact that if they recommended synthetic oil, Toyota would be at a disadvantage with regard to total cost of ownership when compared to its competitors (most notably Honda). It is not an accident that Toyota and Honda have nearly identical warranties, and nearly identical service intervals. These issues are decide by marketing departments as much as they are decided by the engineers. The Toyota recommendations on oil (especially with regard to synthetic vs. conventional) is not necessarily in the best interests of the customer. Therefore it is relevant that you use synthetic oil in all 3 of your personal vehicles while at the same time explaining that Toyota does not require it. >> I'm not changing my advice regarding oil changes! I don't always follow >> my own advice, and the shoemaker's children go shoeless, but I do follow [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > intervals. These issues are decide by marketing departments as much as > they are decided by the engineers. I mentioned the Honda oil change comment in another post and retract what I meant to be a tongue in cheek comment. The notion that Toyota follows Honda's lead is mostly an American one. Believe it or not, Toyota does not follow Honda's lead; it is the other way around If you look at the worldwide vehicle sales, capitalization, and profit among Japanese automakers, Toyota has close 60% of the market while Honda and the other Japanese automakers split the remaining 40%. Honda and the other Japanese automakers are looking for an advantage over Toyota's products and business methods, not the other way around. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > I mentioned the Honda oil change comment in another post and retract what > I meant to be a tongue in cheek comment. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Honda and the other Japanese automakers are looking for an advantage over > Toyota's products and business methods, not the other way around. 1. I didn't say that Toyota followed Toyotas lead. I said they are aware of the competition, including when the specify maintenance intervals. 2. Your request for retraction has been denied. It is part of the record, and I don't believe for one second that you didn't mean it. >> I'm not changing my advice regarding oil changes! I don't always follow >> my own advice, and the shoemaker's children go shoeless, but I do follow [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >The Toyota recommendations on oil (especially with regard to synthetic vs. >conventional) is not necessarily in the best interests of the customer. I totally disagree with you. My '92 Corolla Wagon has had Toyota recommended oil changes with conventional oil. It is now at 220,000 miles and still just like new. >Therefore it is relevant that you use synthetic oil in all 3 of your >personal vehicles while at the same time explaining that Toyota does not >require it. > SignatureScott in Florida > I totally disagree!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Your advice is sound. > Scott in Florida Toyota may not "require" synthetic oil, but as I previously said (and as Ray admitted) this is partly because Toyota knows Honda (and other) salespeople will use that against them when comparing cost of ownership. Also, if everyone used synthetic oil, they would probably sell fewer new cars. Given these facts, the fact that Ray uses synthetic oil in all 3 of his personal cars is relevant IMO. Anyone can read the owners manual. >> I totally disagree!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Given these facts, the fact that Ray uses synthetic oil in all 3 of his >personal cars is relevant IMO. Anyone can read the owners manual. What Ray uses in his personal cars has NO bearing on his advice. My '92 Corolla Wagon has 220,000 miles on it. It has used Castrol GTX oil, changed about every 3500 miles. I'd bet you could not see any more wear in my engine, compared with a car that had synthetic oil changes. SignatureScott in Florida > What Ray uses in his personal cars has NO bearing on his advice. And I thought only lefties were that duplicitous. Shame on you. >>> I totally disagree!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > more wear in my engine, compared with a car that had synthetic oil > changes. Up here in Edmonton, even 5-30 ordinary oil turns gets appreciably thicker (pour point) at minus 40, lengthening the time it takes to get oil circulated through the engine when the vehicles is started. ANY delay in this circulation being completed leads to increased wear.Conversely, desert type temperatures cause dino oil to break down sooner. I'd recommend synthetic oil wherever temperature extremes are experienced. >> I totally disagree!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Also, if everyone used synthetic oil, they would probably sell fewer new > cars. I meant the part about the Honda salespeople facetiously. Going back and re-reading what I wrote, it didn't look that way. Toyota's engineers are not worried about what oil change advantage they may or may not have over Honda, and Toyota is also not worried about selling fewer cars if everyone uses synthetic oil. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > I meant the part about the Honda salespeople facetiously. Going back and > re-reading what I wrote, it didn't look that way. Toyota's engineers are > not worried about what oil change advantage they may or may not have over > Honda, and Toyota is also not worried about selling fewer cars if everyone > uses synthetic oil. So now that you see the duplicity, you are retracting your statement about the Honda salespeople? I don't buy that for a second. Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, you are not going to get it back in that easily. Toyota engineers may have input into the maintenance schedules of vehicles, but it is Toyota Marketing that makes the final decision. That is why the same Toyota sold in other countries have much longer oil change intervals. It depends partly on the competition. The cost of warranty repairs is a Marketing Expense according to Generally Accepted Accounting Principles. >> I meant the part about the Honda salespeople facetiously. Going back and >> re-reading what I wrote, it didn't look that way. Toyota's engineers are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the Honda salespeople? I don't buy that for a second. Once the toothpaste > is out of the tube, you are not going to get it back in that easily. If you consider that duplicitous, mea culpa. If you want to find fault in everything I write, have at it! SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > If you consider that duplicitous, mea culpa. If you want to find fault in > everything I write, have at it! I never said I find fault with everything you write. Don't start feeling sorry for yourself. This has gotta win an award for the most tedious thread that I have seen in a while. Ray has the patience of a saint. Tomes > This has gotta win an award for the most tedious thread that I have seen > in a while. > > Ray has the patience of a saint. > Tomes I've gained quite a bit of patience in 25 years as a scout leader, and taking them climbing and rappelling in the past 6 years takes even more. It is not always easy to convince a Scout or adult that it is safe to step backwards off of a 50 foot drop-off. Of course, the only time someone freezes up high where I can't leave them unattended or halfway up a climb when I'm holding their belay rope is when the 3 or 4 cups of coffee I drank needs to go somewhere. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) "Ray O" ... > "Tomes" ... >> This has gotta win an award for the most tedious thread that I have seen [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > when I'm holding their belay rope is when the 3 or 4 cups of coffee I > drank needs to go somewhere. I teach science to 6th graders in a city so I have an idea of what you speak. I also am reminded of rappelling about 40 years ago in BS, thanks for making me remember that. Tomes (Eagle Scout with 49 merit badges) > "Ray O" ... > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Tomes > (Eagle Scout with 49 merit badges) IMO, teaching is one of the most under-appreciated and under-respected professions in the U.S. I find it interesting that the term "sensei" in Japan refers to teachers, martial arts instructors, clergy men, doctors, and lawyers. My hat is off to you for taking care and educating the future leaders of our society. I like to tell the youth and adults that I take climbing and rappelling that if they can overcome their fear and uncertainty of being able to accomplish something they have never done, they know that they can overcome almost any obstacle that school or life poses, and the teamwork aspects of having to trust someone else with their lives will help them learn who they can trust to work with them in school, work, and in their lives. An Eagle Scout with 49 merit badges is very impressive! To the non-Scouters who are reading this, a youth must progress through the ranks of Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, and Life to even become eligible to become an Eagle Scout. Along the way, the Scout must learn basic leadership, life, and outdoor skills, contribute hours of service to his community including a major project, and earn 21 merit badges, of which 12 are mandatory. Only about 4% of the youth who enter Cub Scouts in first grade achieve the rank of Eagle, and even fewer earn merit badges beyond what they need to become an Eagle Scout. I volunteer as a leader because I believe that the Scouting program complements the education that the youth receive in schools, providing leadership training and experience while learning useful skills that schools don't cover or cover in enough detail. I also love camping and the outdoors, and being a leader gives me an excuse and enjoy the great outdoors. Since my boys have moved beyond Boy Scouts, I only get to camp out a dozen nights a year instead of the 30+ that I used to with them. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >> "Ray O" ... >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > lawyers. My hat is off to you for taking care and educating the future > leaders of our society. In English, the word "doctor" also comes from the word teacher in Latin. (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doctor). > I like to tell the youth and adults that I take climbing and rappelling that > if they can overcome their fear and uncertainty of being able to accomplish [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > outdoors. Since my boys have moved beyond Boy Scouts, I only get to camp > out a dozen nights a year instead of the 30+ that I used to with them. >>> "Ray O" ... >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > In English, the word "doctor" also comes from the word teacher in Latin. > (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doctor). I learned something new today! SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >> In English, the word "doctor" also comes from the word teacher in Latin. >> (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doctor). > > I learned something new today! That is because a doctor is not a just a physician, but more commonly a PhD, which is Doctor of Philosophy. The PhD degree is the education level of most college professors. At one time, all knowledge was a branch of Philosophy, hence the reason why most disciplines award a PhD degree. But there are also physicians who get a MD (doctor of medicine) degree, lawyers get a JD ( doctor of jurisprudence), SOD (doctor of synthetic oil), etc. >>> In English, the word "doctor" also comes from the word teacher in Latin. >>> (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doctor). [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >lawyers get a JD ( doctor of jurisprudence), SOD (doctor of synthetic oil), >etc. Hehehehe. Ok Mark, you had me going there for a while. Good one! Jac >> If you consider that duplicitous, mea culpa. If you want to find fault >> in everything I write, have at it! > > I never said I find fault with everything you write. Don't start feeling > sorry for yourself. Don't worry, I'm not feeling sorry, my patience is just wearing a little thin ;-) SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:37:11 -0600, "Ray O" > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Scott in Florida Yes it is. I don't care if the oil is glistening with the sweat of a thousand slippery eels, I still will not extend the oil change interval beyond 5k. With the exception of replacing used up additives, oil does not go bad. The whole purpose of changing oil is to remove the dirt from the engine. It doesn't matter what type of oil you use, a filter is only capable of holding a certain amount of dirt before it becomes clogged. And if it becomes clogged, the oil will be bypassed and you are running on unfiltered oil from that point. One can spew all the oil jargon they want, nothing will change my mind that extended oil changes are a bad idea. I don't care if the oil is glistening with the sweat of a million slippery eels. It will be filthy dirt loaded slippery oil after an extended amount of time. That a car has 300k on it means little, except that whoever took care of it likely did not use extended oil change schedules. Changing to such a plan is a good way to ensure it doesn't make 400k.. :( I use syntec blend, but I do not modify my oil change schedule vs dino oil. It's still 5k, and 5k is actually longer than I often went in other cars I have owned. I actually prefer 3-4 K. But my present corolla is clean enough operating that I can get away with 5k changes. In the future as it develops more blow by, etc, I may actually go to lesser mile change schedule. And what anyone posts here about oil is not going to change my mind. Toyota tried a 7500 mile oil change sked and it bit them in the a.s big time with lots of gelling problems. They saw the light and went back to 5k. BTW, I use syntec in the corolla, but all my other ford trucks are regular dino oil. The *only* reason I use the syntec is to add a small degree of protection against gelling due to heat. If if were not for that issue, I would use the regular old dino oil in it too. Extended oil changes are a bad idea in my book, no matter how good the oil is. MK >> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:37:11 -0600, "Ray O" >> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > book, no matter how good the oil is. > MK Agreed. I change out my SYN oil every 6000 KILOmetres. < <snip> > Toyota tried a 7500 mile oil change sked and > it bit them in the a.s big time with lots of > gelling problems. They saw the light and went > back to 5k. I don't believe that Toyota ever had a 5000 mile interval prior to their 7500 interval (for non-severe service), unless it was a long time ago. Until the recent change in oil change intervals, it was 7500 miles or 5000 miles for severe service conditions. So unless I am wrong, they did not "go back" to an earlier interval. What changed was a new engine design, that because of emission improvements, required more frequent oil changes. If everyone had been using a full synthetic, I can guarantee you that no one would have been having sludge problems with a 7500 change interval unless they were pouring sludge down the crankcase. > BTW, I use Castrol Syntec 5W-30 and Toyota OEM oil filters in our '97 > Avalon with 130,000 miles, '03 Sequoia with 60,000 miles, and '01 LS 430 [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > with a client, I would have swapped the battery out myself, saved the > labor charge, and got a better battery. I am surprised no one else has mentioned this yet but after all of the bickering about the disclosure of what oil Ray uses I would like to mention that in my (and MANY others) humble opinions Syntec is NOT synthetic oil being only group 3 instead of group 4 thus Ray hasn't actually been using synthetic oil after all and this whole ongoing battle is suddenly a moot point. Daniel (uses Mobil 1 5W30 Non-EP and a Wix 51773 filter on a '95 Dodge Grand Caravan 3.3) >> BTW, I use Castrol Syntec 5W-30 and Toyota OEM oil filters in our '97 >> Avalon with 130,000 miles, '03 Sequoia with 60,000 miles, and '01 LS 430 [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Daniel (uses Mobil 1 5W30 Non-EP and a Wix 51773 filter on a '95 Dodge > Grand Caravan 3.3) Hmmm, let's muddy the waters a little more. I switched to Syntec 2 oil changes ago because it was cheaper than Mobil 1 and a friend who works for Castrol says it is good stuff. Before that, it was Mobil 1. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>> BTW, I use Castrol Syntec 5W-30 and Toyota OEM oil filters in our '97 >>> Avalon with 130,000 miles, '03 Sequoia with 60,000 miles, and '01 LS 430 [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > changes ago because it was cheaper than Mobil 1 and a friend who works for > Castrol says it is good stuff. Before that, it was Mobil 1. LOL I was trying to lighten the situation a bit but I guess I forgot the d:) . BTW the van (which I just bought) has 223,000 miles on it and I switched to syn anyway. In case you don't know part numbers the 51773 filter is a ~1.5 quart beast with the same threads, gasket, and bypass valve specs as the .5 quart 51085 stock filter and the 51515 1 quart filter. I know this is the Toyota NG but just a side note to Ford and Chrysler owners on here. > I am surprised no one else has mentioned this yet but after all of the > bickering about the disclosure of what oil Ray uses I would like to > mention that in my (and MANY others) humble opinions Syntec is NOT > synthetic oil being only group 3 instead of group 4 thus Ray hasn't > actually been using synthetic oil after all and this whole ongoing battle > is suddenly a moot point. That cannot be correct. Ray is expert on Motor Oil. >> I am surprised no one else has mentioned this yet but after all of the >> bickering about the disclosure of what oil Ray uses I would like to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >That cannot be correct. Ray is expert on Motor Oil. and you are an expert in digital photography....NOT. ROFLMAO SignatureScott in Florida Alright kids... I guess "synthetic" is as volatile (pun intended) as "politics!" But I found the MOBILE1 EXTENDED SERVICE 15,000 MILES SYN! Whooowhoo! a whole year between oil change. Am sold. Remember, everthing else is secondary. > Alright kids... I guess "synthetic" is as volatile (pun intended) as > "politics!" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Whooowhoo! a whole year between oil change. Am sold. Remember, > everthing else is secondary. You are going to have to clear that with Ray first. |
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