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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / February 2008Do I really need rear brakes?
Hi folks, This is a question about my Jeep, but I have built a trust with folks here and I wish to ask the generic opinion here please. It is at least about vehicles <g>. I have now got around to pulling off my rear drum to have a lookey at the rear brakes. The situation was that I failed for braking differential between the front and the rear brakes in the state inspection. The assumption was that the rear brakes were worn out at 90K miles. I had done the fronts some time ago. I was expecting to have to bring the drums down to the shop to have them cut while I swap out the shoe parts. To my surprise, it all actually looks to me to still be OK, with a lot of pad left. I posted a few pictures (the first time I have done that - yep I am so proud...my daughter helped me there - links below) that I would like you to please look at and either confirm that I do not need new brakes or set me straight in whatever way I need it. When I took off the drum, before I messed with the star adjuster, it seemed kind of loose to my uncalibrated feel. The drum was loose enough to rattle in my hand on the studs, it just would not come of due to the ridges in the drum. When I was adjusting the shoes to be able to get the drum off, I first moved it a bit in the wrong direction and it tightened up so the drum did not move. It seemed like there was a bit of adjusting done to get that far. It is all dry in there - no leaks. So here is what I am thinking now. All I need to do is put it back together and adjust to wheel stoppage and then back off a bit so it moves with just a little resistance. Then try running it through inspection (which is free) again. Cool? I am wondering at this point why they would need to be adjusted. Do they not self adjust when I back out of the garage every day? Is this something I need to do periodically? What is up with this? Thanks folks for your insight. Tomes (also posted to other NGs) The picture links: Entire assembly. http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa190/BrennaToman/CIMG1001.jpg Top of rear shoe http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa190/BrennaToman/CIMG1002.jpg Top of front shoe http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa190/BrennaToman/CIMG0999.jpg Drum - no gouges at all on surface that is meeting up with the pads http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa190/BrennaToman/CIMG1000.jpg > So here is what I am thinking now. All I need to do is put it back > together and adjust to wheel stoppage and then back off a bit so it > moves with just a little resistance. Then try running it through > inspection (which is free) again. Cool? Yup. > I am wondering at this point why they would need to be adjusted. Do > they not self adjust when I back out of the garage every day? Is this > something I need to do periodically? What is up with this? They should eventually adjust on their own, but it might take a while if you've really backed them off. If you want to drive slowly backwards, braking every few seconds for a few minutes, they will adjust more quickly. That rust ridge is a real problem. Every time I remove drums I grind off that ridge, undercutting slightly in the process. > Thanks folks for your insight. > Tomes > (also posted to other NGs) Be nice if you crossposted correctly. Since I have no idea which other groups you posted to, I remain unenlightened by any good advice you may receive in those other groups. > The picture links: > Entire assembly. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Drum - no gouges at all on surface that is meeting up with the pads > http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa190/BrennaToman/CIMG1000.jpg This is the right rear, isn't it? Your setup looks like the kind that adjusts when you drive the vehicle in reverse. You don't appear to need new shoes at this point. Are you at 1/8" or more thickness at any given point on each shoe? If so, they can be left a while longer. It is critical that your rear brakes function correctly. Your front brakes were designed to act in concert with the rears, not by themselves. Plus the rear brakes help stabilize the rear of the car under hard braking.  SignatureTegger "Tegger"... > "Tomes" : >> So here is what I am thinking now. All I need to do is put it back [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > That rust ridge is a real problem. Every time I remove drums I grind off > that ridge, undercutting slightly in the process. So you recommend that I go get these cut since I have then off. >> Thanks folks for your insight. >> Tomes [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > groups you posted to, I remain unenlightened by any good advice you may > receive in those other groups. Yeah that is something I have forever been uncertain on. One gets villified if one crossposts to many groups but if one does not then folks do not see what is said to the thread in other groups. I posted this to alt.jeep-l and rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys as well as here. >> The picture links: >> Entire assembly. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> > This is the right rear, isn't it? yep > Your setup looks like the kind that adjusts when you drive the vehicle > in reverse. > > You don't appear to need new shoes at this point. Are you at 1/8" or > more thickness at any given point on each shoe? If so, they can be left > a while longer. about 1/8" is what it it now. > It is critical that your rear brakes function correctly. Your front > brakes were designed to act in concert with the rears, not by > themselves. Plus the rear brakes help stabilize the rear of the car > under hard braking. agreed, and thanks Tegger. >> You don't appear to need new shoes at this point. Are you at 1/8" or >> more thickness at any given point on each shoe? If so, they can be left >> a while longer. > > about 1/8" is what it it now. Tomes, I would suggest that if you are down to 1/8" and know it, you may as well jump in The Wife's car and head down to the store for a new set of brake pads. I see no point in putting your Jeep back together with the pads worn that low. If you _had_ to put it back together, then adjust them as needed and be happy. But if you have time today, you may as well get it done because you will be taking the whole mess apart in a couple of weeks anyway, especially since you are going to adjust them so that they actually do something -- and hence, finish wearing out sooner. Otherwise, I agree with Tegger. >>> You don't appear to need new shoes at this point. Are you at 1/8" or >>> more thickness at any given point on each shoe? If so, they can be [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Otherwise, I agree with Tegger. At 1/8" minimum, he's OK until at least late summer, unless he does a lot of driving. Personally, I wouldn't panic unless I found the shoes at 1/16" at the thinnest point (usually the bottom of the front shoe). Of course replacement is definitely the best choice at this point, but if the OP had need to stretch things for whatever reason, he's not going to suffer damaged drums for quite a while yet. SignatureTegger "Tegger" ... > "Jeff Strickland" : >> "Tomes" ... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > the OP had need to stretch things for whatever reason, he's not going to > suffer damaged drums for quite a while yet. Thanks Jeff and Tegger. I put it back together and will see how that tests out. I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier... You're eventually going to need shoes anyway, so just go and buy them. They won't go stale on you. Measure the thickness of those new shoes. Now pull both your drums off and measure the thickness of the THINNEST part on ALL of the installed four shoes. This is usually the bottom of the front (short) shoe. * Assume the new shoes are 3/16" thick. That's 0% worn. * Assume 1/16" at the thinnest point of any installed shoe to be 100% worn. * Assume your current shoes at their thinnest point are 1/8". That's 50% worn. If it took you 30,000 miles to get to 50% worn, it will take approximately 30K more to get to 100% worn. Around 20-25K is when you inspect them. For most people, this would be between one and two years. Rear drums, thankfully, are quite reliable, unlike rear disc brakes, and seizure due to corrosion is rare. SignatureTegger "Tegger" ... >I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier... > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Rear drums, thankfully, are quite reliable, unlike rear disc brakes, and > seizure due to corrosion is rare. OK here's the thing. It has taken me 90K miles to wear them out halfway. 90K miles. This is why I am thinking that I have a lot of miles left on them. I do not do a lot of braking; I coast a lot and plan the lights. The front disc pads went about 70K. Manual transmission. When I had stopped in at my local shop to find out how much it would cost to have them do it (about $330 bucks) they said that it might just be an adjustment and that they have seen Jeep Wranglers go a long time on original rear brakes. I suppose the wind resistance (shaped like a brick) does a lot of slowing down <g>. Thanks for the help here, much appreciated. Tomes > "Tegger" ... >>I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier... [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > OK here's the thing. It has taken me 90K miles to wear them out halfway. > 90K miles. You said elsewhere that you have about 1/8" remaining, that is well more than halfway used. It is closer to 90% used. You can put this car back together and drive it if you need to, but you really should be replacing the brake pads at this point and consider yourself to have caught worn brake shoes before they ruined the drums. If I found my shoes worn to 1/8 inch, I'd be making plans for next weekend, or the one thereafter. I'd really be making plans for this afternoon ... "Jeff Strickland"... > "Tomes" ... >> OK here's the thing. It has taken me 90K miles to wear them out halfway. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > weekend, or the one thereafter. I'd really be making plans for this > afternoon ... I was going by this that Tegger wrote in another post in this thread: "* Assume the new shoes are 3/16" thick. That's 0% worn. * Assume 1/16" at the thinnest point of any installed shoe to be 100% worn. * Assume your current shoes at their thinnest point are 1/8". That's 50% worn." It seems that you disagree? Tomes > "Jeff Strickland"... >> "Tomes" ... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > It seems that you disagree? > Tomes The minimum lining thickness is 2/32" or 2 mm (or 1/16"). Follow Tegger's advice and you won't go wrong. ;-) SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >> "Jeff Strickland"... >>> "Tomes" ... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > The minimum lining thickness is 2/32" or 2 mm (or 1/16"). Follow Tegger's > advice and you won't go wrong. What about his advice on sexual matters or bikini pics? > ;-) "sharx35" : > "Ray O" ... >> "Tomes".. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > What about his advice on sexual matters or bikini pics? Musta missed that.... <snipped> >> The minimum lining thickness is 2/32" or 2 mm (or 1/16"). Follow >> Tegger's advice and you won't go wrong. > > What about his advice on sexual matters or bikini pics? > >> ;-) I think I missed that! SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >> "Jeff Strickland"... >>> "Tomes" ... [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > advice and you won't go wrong. > ;-) I agree, but I look at it from another perspective. The change from 1/8 to 1/16 is only 1/16. If I was taking the brakes apart and found that they needed to be replaced in 1/16 anyway, I'd hop in the other car I have and go buy new brakes to put the first car back together with else I'd have to put the car back together as it is only to take it all apart again later. I've missed the opportunity to replace worn parts before the damage was done, and I prefer to do the replacement of worn parts before I have to do repairs to broken ones. As for the numbers, I don't have the measurements, but I think that brake material is more like 5/16s new, so having 2/16s remaining when 1/16 is the expected replacement means you are more like 80% worn than 50%. I'd replace the shoes now since I already had the car half way taken apart. I agree completely that there is no need to do the brakes now, but I'd do them anyway just because it might not be convenient to replace them when they actually need it. I'm only saying that you are getting down to the margin, so do the work and consider you averted a problem by catching worn parts early. >>> "Jeff Strickland"... >>>> "Tomes" ... [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > I'm only saying that you are getting down to the margin, so do the work > and consider you averted a problem by catching worn parts early. Thanks. Tomes >>> "Jeff Strickland"... >>>> "Tomes" ... [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > I'm only saying that you are getting down to the margin, so do the work > and consider you averted a problem by catching worn parts early. It depends on what you consider the "margin. 1/8" = 3.175 mm. The lining thickness when new is probably 5 mm, so 1/8" is roughly 40% worn and 60% remaining. The minimum is 1 mm (at least on a Previa with drum brakes). Assuming we double the minimum to 2 mm, that would leave 1 mm of wear remaining before 2 mm is remaining, or roughly 33% remaining before reaching the 22 mm limit. If it took the OP 90,000 miles to wear away 2 mm, then at the same rate of wear, it will take 45,000 miles, or 3 years for someone who drives 15,000 miles a year, to wear away another 1 mm. The other variable not mentioned is whether the rear brakes are properly adjusted or not. If they are too loose, the rear brakes will last practically forever. Of course, this is an academic exercise because at 90,000 miles, the lining thickness is probably closer to 1 or 2 mm. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>> "Jeff Strickland"... >>>>> "Tomes" ... [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > Of course, this is an academic exercise because at 90,000 miles, the > lining thickness is probably closer to 1 or 2 mm. The thickness of the lining is more like 2-3 mm left. I put the drums back on and tightened up the starwheel I think properly and am trying to find the time to get back to the inspection station to see if I slither through this time. I also did some serious backing up and braking both with the foot and with the hand brake - left a few marks on the road. Tomes <snipped> > The thickness of the lining is more like 2-3 mm left. I put the drums > back on and tightened up the starwheel I think properly and am trying to > find the time to get back to the inspection station to see if I slither > through this time. I also did some serious backing up and braking both > with the foot and with the hand brake - left a few marks on the road. > Tomes The brakes should pass inspection if there is at least 2 mm remaining and the brakes can lock up. When I adjust drum brakes, I tighten them so that the wheel rotates once or one and a half times when you give it a spin by hand. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) "Ray O" ... > "Tomes" ... > <snipped> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the wheel rotates once or one and a half times when you give it a spin by > hand. Since we are having a snowstorm here and I am off from school as a result I had the opportunity to go to the inspection station and have them run it through the brake test. It passed no problem. Thanks for the help everyone, it is much appreciated. Tomes > "Ray O" ... >> "Tomes" ... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Thanks for the help everyone, it is much appreciated. > Tomes Thanks for the feedback and results! SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) "Ray O" ... > "Tomes" ... >> "Ray O" ... [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Thanks for the feedback and results! No Prob. Tomes > "Ray O" ... > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Thanks for the help everyone, it is much appreciated. > Tomes Inspection station are lenient during snowstorms =) I think some of the road salt helped improve your cars brakes =) Anyway, I from Bergen County and we had like 6+ inches of snow thursday night to friday morning, "EdV" ... Tomes: > "Ray O" ... > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Thanks for the help everyone, it is much appreciated. > Tomes Inspection station are lenient during snowstorms =) I think some of the road salt helped improve your cars brakes =) Anyway, I from Bergen County and we had like 6+ inches of snow thursday night to friday morning, _________________________________ They used to be, but not anymore. It is all automated and all the attendant does now is drive the vehicle through the system, have it do the inspecting, and have it add the results to the automatically generated computer file on that vehicle. There is no being lenient on the brake test, the grid measures how it stops. There is no skipping tests either as the computer system that logs it all demands the test results. =) It sure was fun driving around in all that snow, and finding the roads that were not plowed yet. Tomes > I was going by this that > Tegger wrote in another post in this thread: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It seems that you disagree? > Tomes I should have said "for the sake of argument" assume the new shoes are 3/16. The example I gave was an EXAMPLE only. I do not know how thick the shoes were when new. That's why I advised you to go buy new shoes so you could tell how thick they were to start with. Once you know the starting thickness, you can determine how worn the shoes are by comparing them to the current thickness, considering 1/16" as 100% worn. Clear now? SignatureTegger >> I was going by this that >> Tegger wrote in another post in this thread: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Clear now? Yep, and thanks again. Tomes > Hi folks, > This is a question about my Jeep, but I have built a trust with folks here > and I wish to ask the generic opinion here please. Take it to the Jeep newsgroup!!! (Usual answer I get when asking a generic question, but that's usually from someone who needs to find out what a car is... ;) I would check the thickness on the drum and see if it's in spec at the lowest point, then take it to a brake shop to have it machined to get rid of those ridges. However, being thrifty (read: Cheapskate) your idea of putting it back together and adjusting it should work. I have never heard of this test before, and I though Mass had an anal inspection! I didn't have this type of brake on my Grand Voyager (single shoe) and I can't remember how I reset the adjuster... :( but, it wasn't adjusting properly until I put it back together. it looked fine when I took the drum off, but the adjuster wasn't working until I messed with it. I took the assy apart and then reinstalled it, and it worked just fine... Good Luck! =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@AE86.gts> wrote in news:dmItj.234$wG2.227@trndny09: > I didn't have this type of brake on my Grand Voyager (single shoe) You must mean "single LEADING shoe", no? SignatureTegger > =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@AE86.gts> wrote > in news:dmItj.234$wG2.227@trndny09: > >> I didn't have this type of brake on my Grand Voyager (single shoe) > > You must mean "single LEADING shoe", no? Well, yeah, that too... I was referring to the side-by-side appearance of the shoe. Mine were one continuous shoe. "Hachiroku ... >>Hachiroku: >>> I didn't have this type of brake on my Grand Voyager (single shoe) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I was referring to the side-by-side appearance of the shoe. Mine were one > continuous shoe. So what is the deal with this side by side appearance? I have not seen this before. I am guessing that it is for venting purposes. Thoughts? Tomes =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote in news:tBQtj.3794$FK2.1157@trndny08: >> =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@AE86.gts> >> wrote in news:dmItj.234$wG2.227@trndny09: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I was referring to the side-by-side appearance of the shoe. Mine were > one continuous shoe. One continous shoe? What does that mean? Is Chrysler using Midland Steeldraulic brakes from 1925? SignatureTegger "Hachiroku ... > Tomes: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Take it to the Jeep newsgroup!!! LOL I figured I would get that from someone <g> > (Usual answer I get when asking a generic question, but that's usually > from someone who needs to find out what a car is... ;) [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Good Luck! Yeah here in NJ we have these inspection stations that run the vehicle through a series of standard tests, like plugging in the OBD to look for codes, checking headlight aim, running the vehicle over a grid that tests for differing stresses when braking, shaking each wheel on a shaking pad, even testing the gas cap for pressure capacity. Other stuff too. The tests have evolved over the years (they don't stick the wand up the exhaust anymore unless it is a really old car), but it still is pretty rigorous. I put it back together today and tightened it up moreso. Then did a lot of backing up and braking with both the foot and hand brakes to set it in real well. If it fails again I will just replace the stuff, no problem. Tomes I have a camry with 155,000 mi. On both my previous 1986 Camry and present 2007 the rear drum brake shoes hardly wear. Also note that the primary shoe (front most) wears at least twice as fast as the secndary (rear shoe Since both the primary and secondary shoe is identical I have in the past replaced the primary shoe. This simplifies the repacement as the dificulkty of fooling with the emergency brake cable, lever and anti rattle springs is eliminated. >"Hachiroku ... >> Tomes: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >well. If it fails again I will just replace the stuff, no problem. >Tomes SignatureMarvin Tomorrow's good old days are today! |
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