Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / March 2008
Repair Manuals
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Windsurfer - 13 Mar 2008 12:01 GMT How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my vehicle. The engine one seems a bit pricey at $60.00. I bought the Hanes manual and don't like it. It was useful, though. I've always preferred the Chilton publications for my GM vehicles so I just ordered a used one for my 4-runner over Amazon.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 13 Mar 2008 15:21 GMT > How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my > vehicle. The engine one seems a bit pricey at $60.00. I bought the > Hanes manual and don't like it. It was useful, though. I've always > preferred the Chilton publications for my GM vehicles so I just ordered a > used one for my 4-runner over Amazon. They assume you have a base level knowledge of the car and only delve into the more technical aspects of repair, and are certainly car-specific. However, if you combine it with something like a Clymer's or Hanes manual then you have a pretty comprehensive repair guide.
One manual that's often overlooked is Bentley. They cover EVERYTHING and are car specific, and usually less than the factory manual.
larry moe 'n curly - 13 Mar 2008 15:27 GMT > How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my > vehicle. The engine one seems a bit pricey at $60.00. I bought the > Hanes manual and don't like it. It was useful, though. I've always > preferred the Chilton publications for my GM vehicles so I just > ordered a used one for my 4-runner over Amazon. Some factory manuals can be downloaded free from www.pdftown.com.
Toyota manuals are really good and go into a lot of detail, usually with a clear illustration for each step of each procedure.
A couple of years ago, I paid $140 for the Nissan factory manual and consider it well worth the price, even though I already had a free copy of the Haynes manual, because Nissan provided a lot more information about the computer systems (fuel, emissions, antilock brakes, and transmission), the diagnostic procedures were more detailed (Haynes and Chilton's often give only generic info), plus the wiring diagrams are completely accurate and not merely "typical", i.e., typically useless.
Bruce L. Bergman - 13 Mar 2008 16:58 GMT >How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my >vehicle. The engine one seems a bit pricey at $60.00. I bought the >Hanes manual and don't like it. It was useful, though. I've always >preferred the Chilton publications for my GM vehicles so I just >ordered a used one for my 4-runner over Amazon. Haynes and Chilton and the like are useful for the total novice because they spell out the simple things that the novice doesn't know - like how to hand-pack a wheel bearing...
But at times they are way wrong, because they take apart one example car out of a series of several similar model years of the same design, and expect that they are all designed the same. Often there are major running production changes between the first and last years of a model - or they wrote the book using a sedan and the car maker used a totally different part in the wagon, the book writers didn't know, and the pictures they show look nothing like the part you have in your hand...
The factory manuals are really detailed, and they show all those production changes. But they do tend to gloss over the simple stuff that a first year mechanic would know, like "pack the wheel bearings".
If you need an electrical wiring diagram or detailed torque and adjustment instructions, don't even bother with the ones in the aftermarket books. They're almost guessing - if they make them too good, they'd be accused of copyright infringement because they would have to crib the data and drawings from the factory manuals...
The people who write the factory books have full access to the blueprints used to build the car, and the engineers who drew those blueprints, and are as accurate as possible.
--<< Bruce >>--
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 13 Mar 2008 17:32 GMT > Haynes and Chilton and the like are useful for the total novice > because they spell out the simple things that the novice doesn't know > - like how to hand-pack a wheel bearing... > > But at times they are way wrong, Chilton is the source for Honda factory manuals.
Bruce L. Bergman - 14 Mar 2008 02:30 GMT >> Haynes and Chilton and the like are useful for the total novice >> because they spell out the simple things that the novice doesn't know [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Chilton is the source for Honda factory manuals. Okay, but when Honda has an outside technical writer do the book they still retain copyright over the data and pictures provided.
Does Honda allow Chilton to use the proprietary data and information they supplied for their Factory Repair Manual in Chilton's 'retail paperback' editions? I'll bet not - they have to write those other manuals for Honda in a "clean room" environment, and have their usual crew take apart a car and write the retail manual in their usual way, so their manuals won't break Honda's copyrights.
This is the same way Columbia Data Products had to reverse engineer the IBM PC BIOS - they assembled two teams of workers that had absolutely no industry ties to IBM or Mickeysoft so they couldn't be accused of using trade secrets acquired when they worked for IBM in the past. They had one team break down the tasks that the BIOS performed in excruciating detail, including all the 'bugs' and apparently aberrant behavior when you issued a certain command. And they wrote it all down...
Then a second team came in and wrote a BIOS from scratch that did exactly what the programmers called for when a command was issued. Including pauses and apparent errors and actual errors.
--<< Bruce >>--
Jeff Strickland - 13 Mar 2008 17:38 GMT Factory Repair Manuals are far superior, and well worth the extra cost, to Haynes and Chilton manuals.
> How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my > vehicle. The engine one seems a bit pricey at $60.00. I bought the > Hanes manual and don't like it. It was useful, though. I've always > preferred the Chilton publications for my GM vehicles so I just > ordered a used one for my 4-runner over Amazon. Mike hunt - 14 Mar 2008 02:07 GMT Only as good as the capabilities of guy interpreting the contents, I would suspect ;)
> How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my > vehicle. The engine one seems a bit pricey at $60.00. I bought the > Hanes manual and don't like it. It was useful, though. I've always > preferred the Chilton publications for my GM vehicles so I just > ordered a used one for my 4-runner over Amazon. Ray O - 14 Mar 2008 03:59 GMT > How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my > vehicle. The engine one seems a bit pricey at $60.00. I bought the > Hanes manual and don't like it. It was useful, though. I've always > preferred the Chilton publications for my GM vehicles so I just > ordered a used one for my 4-runner over Amazon. Bruce's explanation of the difference between factory and Chilton, Haynes, Mitchell, Motor, etc. manuals is right on. If you have a good understanding of automotive principles and know the fundamentals of electrical circuits and diagnosis, then the factory manuals are a better choice, otherwise, the aftermarket publications are good enough.
If you think that you will only need occasional access to the additional detail and information in the factory repair manual, you can access them for $10/day at techinfo.toyota.com. At this site, you can also download technical service bulletins. Depending on the car's level of equipment and engine choices, a complete set of manuals can be pricey, but you will probably break even after one or two DIY fixes.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
oneup.again@gmail.com - 14 Mar 2008 11:15 GMT > How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my > vehicle. The engine one seems a bit pricey at $60.00. I bought the > Hanes manual and don't like it. It was useful, though. I've always > preferred the Chilton publications for my GM vehicles so I just > ordered a used one for my 4-runner over Amazon. Hiya, Brucie. Fixed that broken bolt yet?
Here's the story on manuals. Almost without exception, factory manuals are the best (and most expensive). Who knows more about the cars than the engineers who designed them? And the car companies have the deepest pockets to pay for the best writers. Moreover, auto manufacturers must support the dealers' service facilities, particularly for warranty repair It's in their own best interest (self interest) to provide the most complete info to their dealer mechanics in order keep warranty costs down and try to minimize customer dissatisfaction.
On the downside, very often factory service manuals specify a procedure using a special tool that the independent shop or shade tree mechanic won't have and cannot get. And, yes, they're expensive. (You get what you pay for.) Automakers would prefer that you take your car to their dealer for repair rather than do it yourself, so they discourage home repairs by making the technical manuals expensive.
Next on the list of independent manuals are those from Robert Bentley Publishing in your adopted home town of Cambridge, MA. Bentley manuals are so good that some automakers contract out the manuals to Bentley. VW manuals, for example come from (or used to come from) Bentley. Look here: http://www.bentleypublishers.com/
Next on the list are the Haynes manuals. They're OK for the mechanic who has a general idea of the repair procedure, but sometimes they get it wrong; sometimes they use procedures or images that apply to earlier models; sometimes they try to cover a span of model years that is too broad, so the info's not specific enough (which is OK if you have some repair sense); and sometimes they simply ignore a critical service step in their manuals. But many experienced independent mechanics and skilled amateurs do very well with Haynes manuals.
Very last on the list -- at the very, very bottom of the barrel -- are the Chilton manuals. They are tenth on a list of five. Chilton manuals are so bad that they belong in the bathroom where you can tear out a page for other purposes. Fortunately, they print 'em on cheap, soft paper that doesn't scratch when used for that "other purpose." Before I knew this about that, I bought a Chilton manual for one of my cars. I paid $2, and that was $2 too much. I've never, ever used it because the organization of info was bad, the specifics were too general, and the presentation of info was garbled. In fact, the Chilton manual did not even address the type of fuel injection in my car -- they simply left it out. (And, fortunately, the FI has been trouble free for years.)
You ordered a Chilton manual, huh? It will probably suit you well.
Your friend, Oneup.
larry moe 'n curly - 14 Mar 2008 20:41 GMT oneup.ag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Here's the story on manuals. Almost without exception, factory > manuals are the best (and most expensive). Who knows more about the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Next on the list are the Haynes manuals. What? Shouldn't Mitchell manuals come ahead of Haynes???
Hachiroku ハチロク - 15 Mar 2008 02:25 GMT On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 03:15:33 -0700, oneup.again wrote:
>> How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my >> vehicle. The engine one seems a bit pricey at $60.00. I bought the [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Your friend, Oneup. WHAT?! This is IT?!
Toyota Prius: 2001-2008
Toyota Prius Repair and Maintenance Manual: 2004-2008 Toyota Land Cruiser: 1958-1996 Toyota Truck: 1958-1996
Toyota Truck and Land Cruiser Owner's Bible™ Toyota Corolla 1600: 1975-1979
Toyota Corolla Service Manual: 1975-1979 (paper) Toyota Corolla 1.8: 1980-1983
Toyota Corolla Service Manual: 1980-1983 (paper)
Windsurfer - 15 Mar 2008 14:03 GMT > On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 03:15:33 -0700, oneup.again wrote: > >> How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > Toyota Corolla Service Manual: 1980-1983 (paper) Amazing set of replies, thanks to everyone. Even ThrowUp contributed something. He has never done that. However, if you own your vehicles to drive them somewhere rather than use them to while away your time in your garage, I have found the Chilton manuals have kept me on the road enough to cross the U.S. twenty times. The point made about tools is a good one. For example when changing your rear brake shoes, do you really need specialized tools? I don't.
oneup.again@gmail.com - 15 Mar 2008 20:02 GMT > > On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 03:15:33 -0700, oneup.again wrote: > > >> How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > tools is a good one. For example when changing your rear brake shoes, > do you really need specialized tools? I don't. "...when changing your rear brake shoes, do you really need specialized tools?"
It depends on (a) what you mean by "specialized" tools, and (b) what type of brakes your car has.
From the pictures you posted, it appears that your Toyota has ordinary drum brakes. For that, you'll need a pair of brake pliers, a spring tool, and maybe a brake spoon, in addition to ordinary hand tools. Are these "specialized"? To some, yes -- to others, no. (For example, I have several of each of those "special" tools.) And if you must rebuild the cylinder, then you also need a brake hone.
If you're working on disc brakes, then you'll need different tools. (But since you said "shoes" and not "pads," then we won't discuss disc brakes.)
As I'm sure you know, keep oil and grease away from the brake shoes and drums and also far away from the brake hydraulics. Brake fluid is NOT oil based -- it's similar to a long-chain ether or alcohol (actually, it's a glycol), which is why it's so hygroscopic.
Chilton's manuals might be OK for American cars. My experience with European cars has been different.
BTW -- how about adding my email to your "team" on your blog? I promise -- I'll only say nice things, as I did before. Anyway, how many response have you had? Only two, and both were mine. Well, actually three, but Robert Bruce removed my comment about Sidney Greenstreet, which was a mistake because Greenstreet was a VERY impressive actor and my comment was meant to be complimentary and in the best of taste.
swiftwater - 16 Mar 2008 11:21 GMT Along with all the other junk on this forum, we now have the internet stalker, Oneup. I certainly wouldn't read the last post, but I did read his introduction to the board. Certainly if you are a grease monkey like him, you can find the nuances of repair manuals fascinating. However, I don't. The Chilton for my Toyota will be arriving soon. If I can find a used Bentley (Car or Manual), I might buy it. However, you can only get so much out of books. The Toyota factory manual for my vehicle I found on the internet.
oneup.again@gmail.com - 16 Mar 2008 14:10 GMT > Along with all the other junk on this forum, we now have the internet > stalker, Oneup. I certainly wouldn't read the last post, but I did [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > buy it. However, you can only get so much out of books. The Toyota > factory manual for my vehicle I found on the internet. "Certainly if you are a grease monkey like him..."
Grease monkey? Hardly, Brucie. Just a knowledgeable, skilled, and well prepared pool cleaner from Florida. For example, I've used Easy- outs dozens of times and never snapped one. I did lend one to a friend in North Falmouth, however, and he snapped it... As you know, I'm always willing to share my knowledge and experiences with others, including you, big guy. You're just too boneheaded to take advantage of it.
"...you can find the nuances of repair manuals fascinating..."
Brucie, one must be able to read and understand in order to find the "nuances" to be fascinating. This explains why so little fascinates you. Except yourself, of course.
Windsurfer - 20 Mar 2008 12:18 GMT So, the Chilton Toy manual arrived yesterday and has already been helpful. I used to sell Jeeps when they were a division of AMC and new SUV's and 4X4's back before they became a household word. However, I have found that one forgets, especially that these kinds of vehicles are rather useless. However, now I'm stuck with one, a WWII relic for sure. What the Hanes manual didn't include was that one should definitely be vigilant about repacking the wheel bearings regularly if you are driving in water above the hubs. This was never a maintenance issue with front wheel drive which is all anyone really needs.
Windsurfer - 20 Mar 2008 12:23 GMT On Mar 16, 8:10 am, oneup.ag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Along with all the other junk on this forum, we now have the internet > > stalker, Oneup. I certainly wouldn't read the last post, but I did [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > "nuances" to be fascinating. This explains why so little fascinates > you. Except yourself, of course. Let me inform anyone on this board that this guy has been stalking me for ten years over the internet. Whereas many of you boot up and go to a Topic search, this Florida Faggot goes after me. He doesn't know sh.t-for-beans, either. As to Bentley Manuals, it doesn't surprise me that people who have an address in the 1700 Block of Mass. Ave, Cambridge wouldn't be putting out fancy practical books for a higher price. It's doubtful, though, that they are published there. In fact, you are probably dealing with a mail order office.
oneup.again@gmail.com - 20 Mar 2008 18:30 GMT > Let me inform anyone on this board that this guy has been stalking me > for ten years over the internet. Whereas many of you boot up and go [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > higher price. It's doubtful, though, that they are published there. > In fact, you are probably dealing with a mail order office. Brucie, you have no idea how much fun it is to wind you up and set you loose. I've been enjoying this pastime for years.
In fact, others have had so much fun watching you that they've created a "mockumentary" comic strip about you and your dozens and dozens of aliases: http://www.teamcoyote.net/shot_otd.html
swiftwater - 21 Mar 2008 12:07 GMT No read on last post, but definitely the Chilton has provided helpful reading material.
oneup.again@gmail.com - 21 Mar 2008 14:56 GMT > No read on last post, but definitely the Chilton has provided helpful > reading material. And considering that it's you, then it's no surprise that Chilton's provides interesting reading. After you're done with each page, tear it our for bathroom use.
Windsurfer - 28 Mar 2008 13:09 GMT > No read on last post, but definitely the Chilton has provided helpful > reading material. So, let's take an example here. I'm just dealing with comparisons between the Hanes and Chilton. The Hanes manual I bought new in Auto Zone had a section on changing the fuel filter, but it didn't include any relevant information about my fuel filter except that one should remove the case before attempting to remove the filter. It pictured a filter that wasn't in my vehicle and explained how to remove it. It didn't have flair nuts for fitings, it had banjo joints. My filter was mounted vertically and this one was pictured as mounted horizontally. The Chilton entry was much better, but rather general. Nothing was included about the difficulty of access or the location behind the cross-member support piece of the chassis. It recommends using a torque wrench to tighten the flair nuts as pictured. However, it seems impossible to be able to fit a 3/8 drive torque wrench correctly on the nut unless it was shortened somehow. I barely was able to tighten the nut with a motorcycle wrench. In fact after driving for two days and inspecting the fiting often, I found that I had indeed overtightened the nut and the connection was leaking. With the gas dripping down onto the floor, my face and my clothing, I tried finding the right torque for the nut without success. Today, I have to come up with the right solution. I've thought of installing an O-ring or sealing the joint with J.B. Weld. I'm afraid the joint has been compromised by the over-torquing.
oneup.again@gmail.com - 28 Mar 2008 15:18 GMT > > No read on last post, but definitely the Chilton has provided helpful > > reading material. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > thought of installing an O-ring or sealing the joint with J.B. Weld. > I'm afraid the joint has been compromised by the over-torquing. Since Swiftwater = Windsurfer = Brucie, it's clear that you're again responding to your own posts.
But your comments are interesting and directly parallel my analysis of Haynes -- they're good if you know what're you're doing but useless if you're useless.
You have a manual that matches you. Brucie.
Ray O - 29 Mar 2008 06:47 GMT >> No read on last post, but definitely the Chilton has provided helpful >> reading material. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > thought of installing an O-ring or sealing the joint with J.B. Weld. > I'm afraid the joint has been compromised by the over-torquing. An O-ring or J.B. Weld is not the right solution. The correct solution is to replace the section of fuel line that was damaged.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
beerspill@whoever.com - 29 Mar 2008 07:44 GMT > The Hanes manual I bought new in Auto > Zone had a section on changing the fuel filter,
> In fact > after driving for two days and inspecting the fiting often, I found [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > thought of installing an O-ring or sealing the joint with J.B. Weld. > I'm afraid the joint has been compromised by the over-torquing. Those aren't the right solution, and when it comes to gasoline under pressure, you need the right solution. Stripped threads on the outlet side of the filter can let slivers of metal into the fuel injection system.
Windsurfer - 29 Mar 2008 13:18 GMT Actually, I found that I had under torqued the fitting and, with some trouble, now have it right. Since I could only fit a 5 1/2 inch long wrench in the space provided by Toyota, I had to exert an excessive amount of force to tighten it fully. As I was worried about over- torquing, too, I didn't give it enough at the original installation. I had to buy a shortened 19cm wrench which was 7 inches long to work against the motorcycle wrench as my standard sized tools didn't fit. It was quite difficult holding one wrench at an adequate angle and then fiting my other hand into the space provided to pull on the wrench that fit the nut. I will send you invitations to my blog where you can see pictures.
Tomes - 29 Mar 2008 15:14 GMT "Windsurfer"...
> Actually, I found that I had under torqued the fitting and, with some > trouble, now have it right. Since I could only fit a 5 1/2 inch long [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > wrench that fit the nut. I will send you invitations to my blog where > you can see pictures. It's like I tell my 6th graders, it is good to be able to do hard things. Tomes
Windsurfer - 29 Mar 2008 13:53 GMT On Mar 29, 1:44 am, beersp...@whoever.com wrote:
> > The Hanes manual I bought new in Auto > > Zone had a section on changing the fuel filter, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > side of the filter can let slivers of metal into the fuel injection > system. I do hope that with all the struggling I did with the old nut I didn't introduce slivers into the injection system. Now, though, I have something more to worry about.
Tomes - 29 Mar 2008 15:16 GMT "Windsurfer" ...
> , beersp...@whoever.com : >> Windsurfer : [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > introduce slivers into the injection system. Now, though, I have > something more to worry about. From the information in your other post indicating that all you needed to do was to tighten further, you will not need to worry about this. Tomes
fishnjokr@verizon.net - 29 Mar 2008 18:45 GMT Look on eBay. Sometimes you can find one cheaper.
> How good are the Toyota Corp. Repair Manuals? They offer two for my > vehicle. The engine one seems a bit pricey at $60.00. I bought the > Hanes manual and don't like it. It was useful, though. I've always > preferred the Chilton publications for my GM vehicles so I just > ordered a used one for my 4-runner over Amazon.
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