> Is this possible to do aftermarket? I understand that converting a
> car to run alcohol fuels is just a matter of beefing up the materials
> in the fuel system since alcohol fuels are more corrosive, and
> tweaking the ECM. I' m thinking that ethanol and methanol will become
> commonly availabe within about 4 yrs.
All the rubber components need to be changed to handle the highly corrosive
effects of ethanol. This is well beyond anything the home user will be able
to afford to do. You want an E85-capable car? Sell the Corolla and buy an
E85 vehicle ready-made.
But don't act too soon. I think you'll find ethanol to eventually suffer
the very same fate it did in the 1920s, and for the very same reasons.
What's that quote George Santayana is famous for?

Signature
Tegger
JoeSpareBedroom - 27 May 2008 23:51 GMT
>> Is this possible to do aftermarket? I understand that converting a
>> car to run alcohol fuels is just a matter of beefing up the materials
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> the very same fate it did in the 1920s, and for the very same reasons.
> What's that quote George Santayana is famous for?
Maybe this is the doom you refer to. There's a store here called "Mileage
Master". It should be obvious from the name that the store sells nothing but
BBQ grills, accessories, cookbooks and propane. During the 1973 oil embargo,
the owner decided to get into the NEXT BIG THING: Cars that would run on
propane or natural gas or whatever the idea was. I guess it wasn't such a
next big thing. The owner says the business lasted about two years in that
incarnation, supported only by refilling propane tanks.
Tegger - 28 May 2008 00:10 GMT
>>> Is this possible to do aftermarket? I understand that converting a
>>> car to run alcohol fuels is just a matter of beefing up the
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> the business lasted about two years in that incarnation, supported
> only by refilling propane tanks.
The lesson to learn here is the one taught by a superbly run company that
is solidly grounded in the realities of a real world, though one that's a
minor player in the oil business: Exxon.
Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson has stated in no uncertain terms that conventional
petroleum will continue to be the world's primary source of energy for at
least the next 80 years.
Petroleum is safe, cheap, and efficient like nothing else is. And this in
spite of the fact that 85% of the world's oil supply is directly
controlled, produced and sold by governments.

Signature
Tegger
Tomes - 28 May 2008 01:56 GMT
"Tegger" ...
> geronimo:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> the very same fate it did in the 1920s, and for the very same reasons.
> What's that quote George Santayana is famous for?
"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it," from
Reason in Common Sense, the first volume of his The Life of Reason.
observer - 28 May 2008 02:33 GMT
>> Is this possible to do aftermarket? I understand that converting a
>> car to run alcohol fuels is just a matter of beefing up the materials
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>But don't act too soon. I think you'll find ethanol to eventually suffer
>the very same fate it did in the 1920s, and for the very same reasons.
I wish I could comment on your Ethanol opinion since I talked to a
billionaire in a related oil/gas business about 2 months ago but I
have Ethanol stock so I have financial interests to protect : ( .
> Is this possible to do aftermarket? I understand that converting a
> car to run alcohol fuels is just a matter of beefing up the materials
> in the fuel system since alcohol fuels are more corrosive, and
> tweaking the ECM. I' m thinking that ethanol and methanol will become
> commonly availabe within about 4 yrs.
I would not think that of ethanol. Ethanol has some serious baggage -- it
takes huge amounts of resources to produce. I understand that W has said he
wants us to be using many times more ethanol in 10 years than we are using
today, but diverting corn and other grains from the food supply to the fuel
supply is causing huge problems for food prices. It also takes 4 gallons of
water to make 1 gallon of fuel, and the some of the distilleries they are
building are taking more than 1 million gallons of water per day from the
drinking water supply in places where there is a drought under way.
I think that Congress is about to reconsider corn-based ethanol, and the USA
does not seem to have any other kind of ethanol in its plans. We can get
around the food chain issues by using non-food crops as the basis of
ethanol, but nobody is demanding (or even proposing) that be done. but, if
we got past the food chain problems, there is still a huge problem with the
water. It takes so much water to make ethanol, they will have to divert
water from the crops they grow to produce the stuff. Or, they will have to
build desalination plants along the coast line to suck up sea water, and
this presents a whole new set of environmental issues that have not been
thought through very well, if at all.
Bottom line, do not buy stock in ethanol production yet. And, don't spend
your money converting your car. It's probably cheaper to sell this car and
buy a new flex-fuel model than it is to convert this car to flex-fuel.
Retired VIP - 29 May 2008 01:06 GMT
>> Is this possible to do aftermarket? I understand that converting a
>> car to run alcohol fuels is just a matter of beefing up the materials
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>your money converting your car. It's probably cheaper to sell this car and
>buy a new flex-fuel model than it is to convert this car to flex-fuel.
Jeff makes some excellent points here. In addition to what he said,
the energy cost for producing a gallon of ethanol from grain is the
energy equivalent of about 1.5 gallons of ethanol. Ethanol doesn't
have the energy density of either gasoline or diesel so you will burn
more of it per mile. Also, if you are going to get the most out of
E85 fuel, you need a much higher compression ratio than you can run
using straight gasoline.
As Jeff said, don't buy stock in ethanol producers.
Jack
geronimo - 29 May 2008 15:24 GMT
Jeff, read "Energy Victory" by Dr. Robert Zubrin. He is a brilliant
engineer. Sure, if the CEO of Exxon has his way, we will be dependent
on gasoline forever. Today it costs about an additional $150.00 to
produce a flex-fuel car...that's all. The oil companies will lobby
HARD against any initiatives to mandate that all cars manufactured be
flex-fuel, you can bet on that. OPEC willl lean hard on their
bought-out lackeys in govt. also to vote against any such mandate.
But there is a reason why race cars swtitched to alcohol fuel years
ago. Yes, a tank full of ethanol or methanol has to be about 40%
bigger to go the same distance as gasoline, but alcohol fuels for race
cars are far superior both in performance and from a safety
standpoint. Brazil did not find it hard to produce cars that run great
on alcohol fuels, and Brazil has been 100% energy independent for a
number of years. They switched to 100% alcohol fuel, derived from
sugar cane. THe president at the time just made a decree that all gas
sations will install pumps for alcohol, and that was what they did to
jump-start the convesion from gasoline to alcohol fuel. We could
produce alcohol fuels here from any number of crops that are not in
the food chain. In the case of methanol, it can be produced from ANY
biomass at all. Also we have enough coal and natural gas reserves in
this country to last for hundreds of years, and through a steam
reformation process, either coal or natural gas can produce methanol.
Back in the 80s a lady engineer with Ford Co. (after the first Arab
oil embargo) perfected a small car engine that ran on pure alcohol,
and there was a state agency in Ca. that ran a large fleet of these
vehicles with great success. Now there is an engine design that is
far simpler, as a special sensor to detect how much alcohol is in the
fuel ahead of combustion is no longer required. Hydrogen power for
cars is a total hoax, one that the Bush administration has bought
into...but alcohol-fuel cars is a technology that works very well, and
we should convert all US vehicles as soon as possible, as this will
destroy the power of OPEC, before they suck all the wealth out of this
country. It will also stop Saudi Arabias' funding of world-wide Muslim
terrorism, by de-funding them.
>>> Is this possible to do aftermarket? I understand that converting a
>>> car to run alcohol fuels is just a matter of beefing up the materials
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
>Jack