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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / September 2008Chevy Volt question
OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 miles" if the on-board gasoline tank is used to run a 1.4L engine that charges the batteries while driving. I looked up the Volt on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt) where it is reported that it has a 12 gallon gas tank to run the engine. So here's the question - if all they can squeeze out of a tank of gas is 300 miles of additional range, what they effectively have is just another car that gets 25 mpg if you have to make a long trip. Can't GM do any better than that? >OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, >that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >another car that gets 25 mpg if you have to make a long trip. Can't >GM do any better than that? Perhaps the effort was put into the electric aspect of the vehicle rather than the overall product. > OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, > that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > another car that gets 25 mpg if you have to make a long trip. Can't > GM do any better than that? AFAIK, Electric cars are not very popular for very long distance driving. If you dont use gas for your day to day (home-school-work- groceries-home) driving that's pretty good. If you drive 300 miles non- stop which in my case I do three or four times a year? I'd just rent a car for those trips. >> OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, >> that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > stop which in my case I do three or four times a year? I'd just rent a > car for those trips. Batteries are what it's all about, they have to be babied or the life is short. The weight of the batteries, the cost, and what to do about AC and heat for occupants? If you don't drive much each day and get electricity cheap enough it could save you some bucks but over all it's hard to compete with a gallon of gas or diesel when it comes to getting a mile down the road. >>> OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, >>> that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > compete with a gallon of gas or diesel when it comes to getting a mile > down the road. What I don't understand about the Volt is that it has a 1.4 Liter engine --to charge the batteries! I would think that something the size of a lawnmower engine would be enough to run a generator and charge them. a 1.4 L engine should be able to power the whole car, I'd think. >>>> OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single >>>> charge, [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > charge them. > a 1.4 L engine should be able to power the whole car, I'd think. The Volt is a plug in hybrid, not a true electric car. It needs the 1.4L engine so that when the batteries are discharged, it can charge the batteries and allow the car to maintain highway speeds. The Volt is just a big Prius with more batteries and software that allows the batteries to be drained further before the gasoline engine kicks in. What people that buy Prius's don't understand (or maybe don't care) is that the cars high highway gas mileage is mostly a function of the cars small frontal area and excellent aerodynamics. I suspect if you yanked out the electric motor and batteries and replaced it all with the same engine and a manual transmission, the highway mileage would be even higher than it is as a hybrid. On the other hand, the city mileage would be much lower. Hybrids get really good city numbers because they use the electric motor to supplement a small gasoline engine to achieve acceptable acceleration, they can run the gasoline engine in a very efficient mode, and they can recover some of the energy used to accelerate the car by recapturing the energy when the car slows down (regenerative braking). The Volt is a much larger car than a Prius and therefore will get much fuel economy when forced to actually use the gasoline engine. On a long trip you are mainly running on the gasoline engine and the eclectic motor is just on standby to provide additional power to accelerate more rapidly. For a straight 300 mile highway trip there is no reason to think that the Volt would achieve much better fuel economy than a Cobalt. There should be a little advantage because the smaller engine will operate in a more efficient manner, but any weight saving related to the smaller engine will be more than offset by the weight of the electric motor and batteries. Given the Volts much larger frontal area and less efficient shape (compared to the Prius) it is not surprising that the trip range is similar to non-hybrids. For a good comparison, look at the hybrid Camry vs the regular 4 cylinder Camry. The hybrid Camry is only rated about 5 mpg better than the 4 cylinder gas Camry on the highway, but is rated 12 mpg better in the city. The Volts one big advantage is that it has a relatively long "battery only" range of 40 miles. But this can actually work against it on a longer trip, since you are essentially hauling around many extra pounds of batteries that aren't really doing anything when you are just cruising along on the highway. Ed On Sep 18, 4:05 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> wrote: > >>>> OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single > >>>> charge, [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The 4 cil 1.4 liter is overkill and a waste, I figure this is the first model and could get commercial use. Ed, you might have said it but the Prius uses a Continuously Variable Ratio Transmission by which the electric motor applies power in sufficient quantities to allow the car to accelerate with the engine rpm basically fixed in its most efficient power band. This is one area where you get efficiency that the Volt doesn't possess. From a stop, the car can run on electric motor only and is why there is a battery. The car actually runs very little on battery power alone. That allows the battery to be small and not mess up economy by its weight. The Volt does not have this Continuously Variable Transmission and it appears as if it is a regular gas engined car with a battery and electric motor. It can run on electric only and when the battery runs down, can run on the gas engine. Of course, to save battery life, the engine cuts in way before the battery has run down. What I do not understand is that a plug in is going to take a hell of a lot of power from the home electric service. It takes a certain amount of energy to run a 1 ton vehicle at 55 mph. That amount of energy doesn't change whether you are using a gas engine or an electric motor. How much is your home electric bill going to be if you have to provide this energy from there rather than from a gallon of gasoline. I think Volt buyers may have a surprise on their hands in that respect Vito >>>>> OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, >>>>> that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > Ed > What I do not understand is that a plug in is going to take a hell > of a lot of power from the home electric service. It takes a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I think Volt buyers may have a surprise on their hands in that > respect I don't think it will be as bad as you think. Lets say that on average you do get 24 mpg on gasoline and need a similar amount of electrical energy to go 40 miles. A gallon of gasoline contains about 124,000 BTUs. Because of the relative inefficiency of IC engines, the net energy out from the engine is about 30,000 BTUs per gallon of gasoline (I am not including driveline loses, only the energy at the flywheel). This implies that you will need about 1,300 BTUs of energy per mile, or roughly 50,000 BTUs of energy to go 40 miles. Electric motors are relatively efficient, so the batteries will need to supply only around 55,000 BTU of energy to the electric motor to go 40 miles. Modern high efficiency rechargeable batteries are about 80% efficient (you get back 80% of the energy you put in), so you will need to provide around 70,000 BTUs of energy to the batteries to get your 40 mile charge. I am guessing the charging station will be around 95% efficient, so you will need to buy around 74,000 BTUs of energy from the electric company to make your 40 mile trip. 74,000 BTUs is around 22 kwh of electricity. Even at today's rates that is less than $3 worth of electricity to go 40 miles. If you make the trip everyday and recharge your car everyday, you might see an extra $100-$120 on your electric bill, but probably less. I mostly rounded things up, and used very conservative estimates. And, since you are may be driving around town at lower speeds and have regenerative braking, I suspect your actual electrical demand will be far less. I think most people using a car like the Volt would not see more than a $50 increase in their monthly electrical bill. The reduction in money spent on gasoline would far exceed this additional cast. On the other hand, I am not sure the power grid is ready for millions of electrical vehicles, particularly if everyone plugs them in when they get home from work, and at the same time they turn down the A/C, starting cooking, and start watching TV. I am sure the power companies will want to force electric cars to be charged during off peak hours, or at least encourage that as much as they can. Ed I agree. Some of the numbers don't quite add up. GM is saying about 2 cents a mile to run the Volt on electricity (compared to 16 cents a mile for a car that gets 25 mpg at $4 per gallon). However, by my rough calculation: A 10-hour charge on a 15 amp 110V circuit will cost about (110V*15A*10/1000)kwh * 11 cents per kwh or about $1.80 at today's average electricity rates (and they are quite a bit higher in the northeast). If that's good for 40 miles, it works out to about 4.5 cents per mile. Still better than a car, but if you save even 12 cents a mile (optimistically) it would take over 150K miles of driving (all electric) to make up the $20K difference in price between the Volt and a conventional sedan. That's over 10 years of driving at 40 miles per day. Either someone is betting that the price of gas will go much higher (with no rise in electrical rates) or the Volt will come way down in price once production gets going. > Ed, you might have said it but the Prius uses a Continuously Variable Ratio > Transmission by which the electric motor applies power in sufficient [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > I agree. Some of the numbers don't quite add up. GM is saying about > 2 cents a mile to run the Volt on electricity (compared to 16 cents a [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] > > - Show quoted text - 11c a KWH? only if you have subsidsed Hydro or are lucky, .15-.20c a kwh is more like it. Im at .14 and going up maybe 20%. Why not run this thing on NG and use a 15-25 HP single cilinder, the weight saved would be offset by the Ng tank, but you would fill it all up at home and then have real savings. a 150 hp drivetrain is not necessary. And 40g a joke. The U.S. average is 10.97 cents per kwh (as of April) according to this hopefully somewhat-reliable source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html > The U.S. average is 10.97 cents per kwh (as of April) according to > this hopefully somewhat-reliable source: > > http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html I know of no area that is anywhere near that, in the midwest I was at . 125 for the last 10 years and now its near .14 and going up again. Some areas are at .25 kwh. > What people that buy Prius's don't understand (or maybe don't care) is > that the cars high highway gas mileage is mostly a function of the > cars small frontal area and excellent aerodynamics. What you don't understand is that it's ALSO a function of an engine that's tuned AWAY from any low end grunt and TOWARD highway running at a very high efficiency. The ICE in the Prius doesn't HAVE to do what the ICE in ICE-only cars does. The ICE in the Prius can be, and is, tuned away from low end grunt and toward high efficiency running at speed. The ICE in every ICE-only car is, by necessity, a compromise. Given that it must give a certain amount of low-end grunt for starting off, it cannot give the efficiency at high end. But Toyota found a way to use electrics to handle the low end off the line stuff, which leaves the engine entirely tuned for high speed running, which offers efficiencies the ICE-only car can't have. > > What people that buy Prius's don't understand (or maybe don't care) is > > that the cars high highway gas mileage is mostly a function of the > > cars small frontal area and excellent aerodynamics. does the civic hybrid and prius have the same highway mpg? the civic looks like a "regular" car aerodynamics. >> > What people that buy Prius's don't understand (or maybe don't care) is >> > that the cars high highway gas mileage is mostly a function of the >> > cars small frontal area and excellent aerodynamics. >> > does the civic hybrid and prius have the same highway mpg? the civic > looks like a "regular" car aerodynamics. The Civic Hybrid and Prius have the same Highway MPG. 2009 Civic Hybrid EPA City/Hwy/Combined: 40/45/42 Curb Weight is 2877 Passenger volume: 90.0 cu.ft Cargo volume: 10.4 cu.ft MSRP: $23,550 2009 Prius Hybrid EPA City/Hwy/Combined: 48/45/46 Curb weight is 2932 Passenger volume: 96.2 cu.ft Cargo volume: 14.4 cu. ft. MSRP: $22,000  SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) Vehicles using the technology use by the Prius in obsolete and those that own them will discover that fact when it comes time to sell them in a few years >> What people that buy Prius's don't understand (or maybe don't care) is >> that the cars high highway gas mileage is mostly a function of the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > engine entirely tuned for high speed running, which offers efficiencies > the ICE-only car can't have. > >>> OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, > >>> that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Yea GMs idiots make another horsepower mistake again. You likely need only a 15-20hp 1 cilinder engine, what kind of Green machine is this, The Geo had a good 3 cilinder but you dont need a 100mph 4 cilinder motor to charge batteries. If they put in a 2 cilinder I would consider it. A single cilinder would also reduce the outragous 40,000 price by thousands. "ransley" <Mark_Ransley@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:5fcc9f60-e649-401b-. A single cilinder would also reduce the outragous 40,000 price by thousands. What? a Volt will cost 40 large? That just lost a sale to me. I would never pay 40 grand for a Chevy if Bob Lutz came with it as a chauffeur! >>>> OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, >>>> that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >a lawnmower engine would be enough to run a generator and charge them. >a 1.4 L engine should be able to power the whole car, I'd think. Yes, that little 1.4 L engine is powering the whole car. After the batteries have used up their over-night charge, the gas engine powers the car as well as recharges the batteries. A lawnmower engine could recharge the batteries, if you were willing to wait 8 or 10 hours for it to do it but it wouldn't be able to power the car too. You can't get something for nothing. It takes horse power to move a car and it will take the same amount of horse power regardless of where it comes from. Jack On Sep 18, 5:32 pm, Retired VIP <jackj.extradots....@windstream.net> wrote: > >>>> OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, > >>>> that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The point is its electric, the motor should not be powerfull enough to recharge while driving, that you do at home, the motor should only be large enough to move you and give AC lights and stereo, a 1cilinder motor would be likely twice as efficent. It would weigh and costs alot less giving much better milage. GM and their stupid horsepower moves never end. And the price of this car is another joke. Now if a real fuel efficent Turbine was used 40g would be justified. >On Sep 18, 5:32 pm, Retired VIP <jackj.extradots....@windstream.net> >wrote: snip >> >What I don't understand about the Volt is that it has a 1.4 Liter >> >engine --to charge the batteries! I would think that something the size of [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >never end. And the price of this car is another joke. Now if a real >fuel efficent Turbine was used 40g would be justified. No, the point is that it's a hybrid. If you want an all-electric car, why haul around a big block of metal that's an engine along with a transmission and differential? But then you need a LOT more battery. I haven't seen specs on Chevy's new Volt but I'd be willing to bet that you have to drive at 40 mph or less in order to get the 40 mile range. If you drive it at 55 or 60 mph, the range will be MUCH less than 40 miles. If you want a gasoline engine to move a car through the air at 60 mph, you need horse power. That's why Chevy uses a fairly large engine in the volt hybrid, it's not because Chevy has a 'thing' for horse power. Jack On Sep 19, 3:42 pm, Retired VIP <jackj.extradots....@windstream.net> wrote: > On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:02:55 -0700 (PDT), ransley > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It might take 15hp to power a car at 55 mph, not the 150 it has, power is needed for acceleration if the motor kicked in right 20-25 hp is still all that is needed. Does this thing have a trans and differential or just a generator and motor. right 40 miles, at 55 and turn on heat or AC and lights and stereo and you likely get 20 miles. It would work just fine with a 20-25 hp single cilinder, that is what it should be. The design presented is more a commercial vehicle. On Sep 19, 3:42 pm, Retired VIP <jackj.extradots....@windstream.net> wrote: > On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:02:55 -0700 (PDT), ransley > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > - Show quoted text - My camry has 110 hp and its more than enough, my old full size 4wd blazer had 170 and that was plenty, my 2.5 ton 54 Buick had maybe 140 hp and it went 110mph, and you think this lightweight Volt needs 150HP and 4 cilinders, it is a HP GM american thing. Didnt old VWs and fiats have near 60hp, a Citroen 2cv in france had 40hp. 150hp on the volt defeats the purpose of a lightweight, efficent, cheaper, drivetrain. But its only 40 grand before taxes. On Sep 19, 3:42 pm, Retired VIP <jackj.extradots....@windstream.net> wrote: > On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:02:55 -0700 (PDT), ransley > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > - Show quoted text - A new ford flex needs only 8.9 hp to drive at 55 mph, thats from ford, and the flex is big I saw one. Point being a constant run 20-25 hp motor gen is all that is needed because the batteries still have 150 hp stored for the motors. Power is needed in spurts, averaging it out is overall low. >On Sep 19, 3:42 pm, Retired VIP <jackj.extradots....@windstream.net> >> >> You can't get something for nothing. It takes horse power to move a >> >> car and it will take the same amount of horse power regardless of [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >hp stored for the motors. Power is needed in spurts, averaging it out >is overall low. You could be right about the Ford Flex, I haven't read anything about it and don't know. But you seem to think that, just because a car has an engine capable of delivering 150 hp, that it generates that 150 hp all the time. The engine will generate the amount of power needed when it's needed. Okay, you are moving along at 55 mph and using a 10 hp engine. You slow down to about 35 mph at a town. How long does it take to get back up to 55 mph when you leave the town? What do you do when you try to merge with traffic getting on to an Interstate? Can you go 65 or 70 mph if the speed limit goes up when you enter a different state? Remember, you batteries are depleted because your 10 hp engine can't recharge them and move the car at the same time. Jack On Sep 19, 5:38 pm, Retired VIP <jackj.extradots....@windstream.net> wrote: > On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:01:15 -0700 (PDT), ransley > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I know it does generate 150 all the time, I am saying 2 cilinders has half the friction of a 4 cil motor, since I have heard maybe 20-30% of the gasolenes energy is lost to friction a 4 cilinder is overkill for a revolutionary car designed to get the best milage, they have the battery part worked out but it would be cheaper and lighter and more efficent with a different motor. The batteries would never deplete and charging would start at maybe 75% down, I dont believe I said a 10 hp gen, but why wouldnt a 20-25 hp work, you would still get 150 hp electric continous. >On Sep 18, 5:32 pm, Retired VIP <jackj.extradots....@windstream.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >never end. And the price of this car is another joke. Now if a real >fuel efficent Turbine was used 40g would be justified. What makes you guys think we can all of a sudden run cars on lawnmower engines ? The fact that it runs on electric (generated by the gasoline engine ?) ??? IF that was true, why don't we see small car with lawnmower engines right now ? That's right, because it's not enough to get up to reasonable speed within reasonable time. The fact that it is electric doesn't mean it all of a sudden doesn't need horsepowers to move. >>>> OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, >>>> that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > of a lawnmower engine would be enough to run a generator and charge them. > a 1.4 L engine should be able to power the whole car, I'd think. I think so too. My Honda Fit has a 1.5L engine. Our newly licensed son prefers driving my wife's Accord because my Fit has too much power for him. Yes, too much power for a teenage boy. I just wish he would hurry up and get the hang of a stick so that he can drive my truck full time. I guess I will have to become Fitdude when that happens. > I just wish he would hurry up and get the hang of a stick so that he > can drive my truck full time. I guess I will have to become Fitdude > when that happens. No! I won't know you anymore! Where will the jokes go? In article <1f55bf40-e343-45c9-a440-3ceea7a655a6@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, > that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > another car that gets 25 mpg if you have to make a long trip. Can't > GM do any better than that? 40 miles on a single charge is a little more than 3 days of back and forth to work for us. How much does this volt cost, sounds interesting. -- > In article > <1f55bf40-e343-45c9-a440-3ceea7a655a6@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 40 miles on a single charge is a little more than 3 days of back and > forth to work for us. How much does this volt cost, sounds interesting. You are the perfect buyer for this car. I have a pizza place I like to go to, it's 30 miles round-trip from my house. My driving habits would not be supported very well by this car. >> In article >> <1f55bf40-e343-45c9-a440-3ceea7a655a6@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > to, it's 30 miles round-trip from my house. My driving habits would not be > supported very well by this car. That means that you're likely paying $8 for gas to buy a $10 pizza, then. >>> In article >>> <1f55bf40-e343-45c9-a440-3ceea7a655a6@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > That means that you're likely paying $8 for gas to buy a $10 pizza, then. Well, my car gets 20 mpg on average, so it's more like $6 for gas. I've heard it's going to be about 40 grand. > In article > <1f55bf40-e343-45c9-a440-3ceea7a65...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > forth to work for us. How much does this volt cost, sounds interesting. > -- In article <4d7601f7-8647-45ba-b6ae-ab8afc0b7dfe@s20g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > I've heard it's going to be about 40 grand. I'll keep driving my old clunker. I can buy a lot of gas for $40 K. When they let us drive golf carts on the same places bike riders can ride then I'll think about going all electric. > > In article > > <1f55bf40-e343-45c9-a440-3ceea7a65...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > forth to work for us. How much does this volt cost, sounds interesting. > > -- -- I've heard it's going to be about 40 grand. Well, if it's that much, I don't see much of a future for GM after all. How many Joe Averages are going to go in hock in this environment to the tune of 40K.? Mark <bogusmailm...@yahoo.com> wrote: OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 miles" if the on-board gasoline tank is used to run a 1.4L engine that charges the batteries while driving. I looked up the Volt on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt) where it is reported that it has a 12 gallon gas tank to run the engine. So here's the question - if all they can squeeze out of a tank of gas is 300 miles of additional range, what they effectively have is just another car that gets 25 mpg if you have to make a long trip. Can't GM do any better than that? -------------- Nawl.. It's another piece of sh.t GM. And we are going to hand them how many billions of dollars? It's f.cking Christmas on the Hill...? >In article ><1f55bf40-e343-45c9-a440-3ceea7a655a6@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >40 miles on a single charge is a little more than 3 days of back and >forth to work for us. How much does this volt cost, sounds interesting. If that's all you drive, why don't you get an gas powered golf cart? If you drive 13 miles a day (39 miles in 3 days) that means 7.5 miles one way. It would take you longer to make the trip but you sure would save a LOT of money. Jack > In article > <1f55bf40-e343-45c9-a440-3ceea7a655a6@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 40 miles on a single charge is a little more than 3 days of back and > forth to work for us. How much does this volt cost, sounds interesting. Yes, with a time-of-use electric meter, and charging at night, most commutes could be done at very low cost without ever using gasoline. If work places install charging stations then that doubles the range per day. $40K is way too high. You can do a plug-in hybrid conversion for the Prius for $7K-15K depending on the range you want. If they priced the Volt at $30K then it'd be more reasonable. Of course by the time the Volt comes out, Toyota may offer a plug-in option on the Prius, and steal the thunder from GM. A lot depends on the cost of electricity and the tier you're in. If you can do Time-of-Use metering and power heavy loads during off-peak, the savings are huge. If you're charging at regular rates, and it puts you into the top tier of usage, then it could be no savings at all. Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're always running the engine, and you're hauling all those batteries around, though the Prius is really not all that much of a hybrid since it can only go about 2 miles on the batteries. The Prius is really a gasoline powered electric generator, with a UPS that can run the engine for a very, very, short time. >> In article >> <1f55bf40-e343-45c9-a440-3ceea7a655a6@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >commutes could be done at very low cost without ever using gasoline. If >work places install charging stations then that doubles the range per day. If you have 1/2 the cars on the road recharging their batteries at night, suddenly you don't HAVE an off-peak time and your rates never go down. snip >Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're always >running the engine, and you're hauling all those batteries around, >though the Prius is really not all that much of a hybrid since it can >only go about 2 miles on the batteries. The Prius is really a gasoline >powered electric generator, with a UPS that can run the engine for a >very, very, short time. I've been saying they don't make sense for years now. Take out the batteries, electric motor and control/charging circuitry but leave in the small engine and CVR transmission and you would get even better mileage. > I've been saying they don't make sense for years now. Take out the > batteries, electric motor and control/charging circuitry but leave in > the small engine and CVR transmission and you would get even better > mileage. You don't know anything about the Prius, do you. If you simply used that engine by itself, you'd have a dangerous car that couldn't get out of its own way. It's a SYSTEM. Of course, since you have zero interest in actually knowing any FACTS about the SYSTEM in question, you'll never know how it all works as a SYSTEM and how it achieves the same driveability as any modern family sedan while using wildly different components that manage the energy that's put into the SYSTEM. That CVR transmission is not what you think it is. It is not operated with a belt on pulleys where you get continuous power ratios. This is where the auto companies get very free with the terminology. The CVR in the Prius and true hybrids, has a planetary, ring, sun gear combo. The engine drives the sun gear and a generator. The planetary gear drives the rear wheels. The ring gear is driven by an electric motor. You can speed up the car by either speeding up the electric motor or by speeding up the engine. They both transmit power to the planetary gears. In the efficient hybrid mode, the engine runs at its most efficient rpm and the car accelerates by speeding up the electric motor. Since the engine rpm is constant and the vehicle is accelerating, this is the continuously variable ratio part of the transmission that the car companies are bragging about. Not sure it really is a CVR trans but that is what they mean, anyway. As such, you must have the electric motor and battery in the Prius else, you do not have that CVR and it is just a regular car. Vito >>> In article >>> <1f55bf40-e343-45c9-a440-3ceea7a655a6@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > the small engine and CVR transmission and you would get even better > mileage. > Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're always > running the engine, and you're hauling all those batteries around, > though the Prius is really not all that much of a hybrid since it can > only go about 2 miles on the batteries. The Prius is really a gasoline > powered electric generator, with a UPS that can run the engine for a > very, very, short time. hmmmmmmm. Find me a 5 seater (with a large back seat!) that gets 53mpg on a highway trip. Otherwise, I'll stick with the Prius. The Prius system is ingenious. It's not that it can go only a couple miles on pure electric; it's how it manages the energy that's put into the system. When you need low end grunt, you can have it thanks to the electrics, because the gas engine has NO low end grunt. On the other hand, the engine is tuned for that long distance driving, to give good gas mileage--and having been so tuned, of course, it has no low end grunt. When you combine the electrics and the engine in an INTELLIGENT manner, and when you design the pieces to COMPLEMENT each other, it all works. They didn't take a standard gas engine that was used somewhere else and just bolt it in. That wouldn't have made any sense. You plainly know nothing about the Prius, yet you insist on commenting on it (and showing your ignorance of the subject). >> Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're always >> running the engine, and you're hauling all those batteries around, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > They didn't take a standard gas engine that was used somewhere else and > just bolt it in. That wouldn't have made any sense. All this stuff that Elmo is saying here is spot on. Tomes >>> Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're always >>> running the engine, and you're hauling all those batteries around, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > All this stuff that Elmo is saying here is spot on. > Tomes I read today that the Volt is designed so that the battery can only be charged by plugging it in to the grid to take advantage of electricity rates that provide energy at a lower cost than gas. The Vollt's target endurance while running on the battery is 40 miles, so when the battery is depleted, the internal combustion engine (ICE) will drive a generator that will provide enough power to run the electric traction motors much like a diesel-electric train or submarine ,but will not re-charge the battery, in effect making the battery dead weight to be hauled around. The Volt's designers purposely did not want to charge the battery off of the ICE, otherwise, it would not be necessary to plug it in. IMO, it would make more sense to allow the driver to be able to select an option to allow the ICE to re-charge the battery if the drive knows that a place to plug it in will not be available for some distance. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>> Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're always >>>> running the engine, and you're hauling all those batteries around, [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >option to allow the ICE to re-charge the battery if the drive knows that a >place to plug it in will not be available for some distance. More wonderful General Motors 'engineering'...... SignatureScott in Florida I like this description - "a Viper for tree huggers" http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/22/news/companies/taylor_volt.fortune/index.htm?pos tversion=2008092309 > On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 23:43:21 -0500, "Ray O" > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > >>>> Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're always > >>>> running the engine, and you're hauling all those batteries around, [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > More wonderful General Motors 'engineering'...... I wonder what percent of each Volt goes to the labor union bosses and union PAC. -- >>>> Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're always >>>> running the engine, and you're hauling all those batteries around, >>>> though the Prius is really not all that much of a hybrid since it can >>>> only go about 2 miles on the batteries. The Prius is really a gasoline >>>> powered electric generator, with a UPS that can run the engine for a >>>> very, very, short time. snip >>> When you combine the electrics and the engine in an INTELLIGENT manner, >>> and when you design the pieces to COMPLEMENT each other, it all works. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >option to allow the ICE to re-charge the battery if the drive knows that a >place to plug it in will not be available for some distance. Now that is surprising Ray and it doesn't make any sense. A hybrid has just two advantages over a standard car. An engine designed to run at one speed only and regenerative braking. Take away those two advantages and a hybrid will get worse mileage than it's conventional cousin just because of the added weight. Add in the energy conversion loses and it will really be bad. If the Volt is truly designed as you say then it appears that GM has designed it to fail in the market place. Why would they do that? Jack >>>>> Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're >>>>> always [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Jack I'm not sure if you can read this without a subscription to Automotive News, the publication for people in the automotive industry (as opposed to automotive enthusiast magazines), but here is a link to the article: http://www.autonews.com/article/20080922/ANA03/809220386/1137 According to the article, the Volt's designers wanted to optimize it for people who make short trips. That part of it makes sense, but if the car does not have a driver selectable option to charge the batteries from the ICE during longer trips, then IMO, the limitations outweigh the advantages. I don't doubt that there are people who rarely, if ever, venture more than 40 miles from home, but for those who do so often, the Volt seems like it would be a poor choice. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>>>> Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're >>>>>> always [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >40 miles from home, but for those who do so often, the Volt seems like it >would be a poor choice. Nope can't read the article, they want me to subscribe. There was an article in the paper this morning about Chrysler coming out with 3 new electric vehicles. Two of them appear to be hybrids and the 3rd is an electric-only sports car with a range of about 200 miles The article did say that the hybrids would have an electric-only range of about 40 miles and have a small gasoline engine that could recharge the batteries. If GM wants to build a car that is optimized for short trips on electric power, why not build an electric-only car? Jack You wrote "If GM wants to build a car that is optimized for short trips on electric power, why not build an electric-only car?" The battery technology is just not at that point yet. Without the engine you risk being stuck with a run down battery. I think I read that Honda was postponing making their all electric car for a few years to develop a better battery. You know, if a car company comes out with an electric car, and it leaves its owners stranded, that would be terrible press. GM knows what it is doing with the Volt by providing an engine in the car so that it can still operate with a run down battery. Give companies a few years to develop a better battery and you may see all electric vehicles. Vito >>>>>>> Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're >>>>>>> always [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > Jack >You wrote "If GM wants to build a car that is optimized for short trips on >electric power, why not build an electric-only car?" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Vito Most snipped Yes, you would run the risk of being stuck with a run down battery and being stranded. But you run the risk of running out of gasoline also. You will always have to deal with a limit on the vehicle's range regardless of what motive power you use, so that argument is invalid. You would be right in saying that very few people would spend money to buy a car that will only have a 40 mile range and putting an ICE in it would increase sales. You may also be right about batteries not being ready yet for all-electric cars however Chrysler and Tesla seem to think that they can build an electric-only car with a 200 mile range. So why is GM building a car that can't recharge it's batteries? This car, if what Ray says is correct, isn't a hybrid...it's a car with 2 types of motive power. I also question the advisability of adding hundreds of thousands of cars that will get a major part of their power from the power grid at a time when the grid is stretched to it's limit. It seems like the manufacturers aren't examining their product's effect on the energy systems. Jack >>You wrote "If GM wants to build a car that is optimized for short trips on >>electric power, why not build an electric-only car?" [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Jack Fortunately, most electric vehicle owners would probably recharge their vehicles at night, when demand is lower. A major disadvantage of vehicles that run solely on electric power without some means of on-board recharging is the lack of charging facilities when away from home. Even if gas stations started adding metered recharging positions, it would take considerably longer to recharge a car's battery than it takes to fill a tank with gas or diesel. People probably don't want to wait hours for their vehicle to recharge when on a trip. An alternative scheme would be some means to swap out and exchange the battery pack like is done with industrial electric forklifts or with gas barbecue tanks, but the myriad different capacities and configurations of automotive battery packs would make that expensive and impractical, plus the battery packs in consumer vehicles are generally inaccessible without raising the vehicle on a lift or disassembling some of the interior. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>You wrote "If GM wants to build a car that is optimized for short trips on >>>electric power, why not build an electric-only car?" [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >battery packs in consumer vehicles are generally inaccessible without >raising the vehicle on a lift or disassembling some of the interior. You made some good points Ray. Everything you say is true but it still doesn't answer the question of why GM is going to build a car that runs on either batteries or an ICE that can't use the ICE to recharge the batteries. As for charging at night..Add 1,000,000 battery chargers, each drawing about 20 amps at 240 volts to the grid and see what happens to demand at night. But I stand by my original statement that GM seems to be designing this car to fail. Jack If it's supposed to recharge overnight on a standard 110V circuit, that's more like 15 amps at 110V, about 1/3 what you describe below. On Sep 26, 10:48 am, Retired VIP <jackj.extradots....@windstream.net> wrote: > As for charging at night..Add 1,000,000 battery chargers, each drawing > about 20 amps at 240 volts to the grid and see what happens to demand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >If it's supposed to recharge overnight on a standard 110V circuit, >that's more like 15 amps at 110V, about 1/3 what you describe below. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - Okay Mark, that solves the problem. I'm wrong and I admit it. The power grid has more than ample capacity to handle a million new battery chargers. GM really does know what they're doing building a car that pretends to be a hybrid while getting about the same gas millage as my Mercury Grand Marquis. Pigs really do have wings and can fly. >>If it's supposed to recharge overnight on a standard 110V circuit, >>that's more like 15 amps at 110V, about 1/3 what you describe below. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >millage as my Mercury Grand Marquis. Pigs really do have wings and >can fly. Hush - you are both right and wrong on some points. A million cars charging overnight would definitely be noticed on the grid, but the loads could be handled if they didn't all slam on precisely at Midnight in each time zone. And it would take several years to deploy that many vehicles, they could easily call a temporary regional moratorium if the utilities started hurting for capacity. And there are data transmission schemes already in use for remote meter reading that can let the utility communicate directly with the loads (all the parked cars) and control the demand on the system 0- they do it now with AC and water heaters. If there's an unusual load surge or a power plant failure, half the car chargers can be shut off, especially the ones that aren't scheduled to drive to work at 5 AM - the people who get up at noon to work swing shift can let the charging wait till later in the morning. (The big HVAC loads don't hit till 10 or 11 AM most places.) The GM Volt looks to be designed badly if there is no way to charge the batteries from the ICE. If I'm taking a cross-country trip I don't want to run solely on the batteries, I want a reserve. And I don't want to leave the batteries at low charge when parking if I know there are no charging facilities. Especially if in snow country, most types of batteries freeze faster if they are left discharged and can be seriously damaged. If the car isn't plugged in to utility power the engine might have to start automatically several times a night for a few minutes in severe cold snaps, just to keep the batteries from freezing. I'll welcome the computer shutting down the ICE to coast down the hills, using regenerative braking to power the other car systems, but the ICE should be fully loaded by either propelling the car or charging the batteries to stay at optimum output. Or shut down when it's running on the batteries. Throttling back the ICE is the path to inefficiency. --<< Bruce >>-- I was just pointing out that your power draw estimate was a bit overstated. I don't disagree that the Volt appears to be a $40K small- niche vehicle and not economically justifiable for the masses. I was also the person pointing out that the Volt running on the ICE gets about 25 mpg. On Sep 26, 1:41 pm, Retired VIP <jackj.extradots....@windstream.net> wrote: > On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Mark > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > I was just pointing out that your power draw estimate was a bit > overstated. I don't disagree that the Volt appears to be a $40K small- [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - Submarines are about the only thing I can think of that used batteries for transportation with any success. On a cold day most people would use up the energy stored in a Volt just getting the windshield defrosted. >>>>You wrote "If GM wants to build a car that is optimized for short trips >>>>on [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > Jack I'm not defending the Volt's designers' decision to not provide a means for the ICE to recharge the batteries, if that is actually how it is designed. It almost seems like they made that decision so that the car wouldn't be just another hybrid trying to catch up with Toyota. We'll have to see how the electric utility infrastructure improves to handle future demand for energy. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>>>You wrote "If GM wants to build a car that is optimized for short trips >>>>>on [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] >We'll have to see how the electric utility infrastructure improves to handle >future demand for energy. There was an article in the business section of this morning's paper that said Chevy is trying to get the Volt certified by the US Environmental Protection Agency as the first 100 mpg car. The article also said that the car COULD recharge the battery using the on-board 1.4L engine or by plugging it in to the commercial power. This article is from Bloomberg News Service. So it appears that either the article Ray quoted or the one from Bloomberg has erroneous information. Somebody from GM is putting out bad information or the reporters aren't paying attention to what they're writing. It would be interesting to find out what criteria the EPA is using to get to 100 mpg. However the EPA isn't talking and won't release any information about testing methods or criteria. Jack >>>>>>You wrote "If GM wants to build a car that is optimized for short >>>>>>trips [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > > Jack I got my original information from Automotive news, one of the best sources of industry information because the writers are automotive experts, not just enthusiasts or financial writers. According to GM-volt.com (I don't know if this is an official GM site or not), after the battery has been depleted from its useful range, the ICE/generator could charge the battery if there is surplus output, like during long downhill stretches. This design makes more sense. Since the Volt is all about using as little gas as possible, my guess is that under conditions like stop-and-go driving where the driver is accelerating and at highway speeds, the ICE is sized to produce just enough power for those conditions, but IF there is excess power, rather than be wasted, it would go to recharge the batteries, even if there isn't enough capacity to fully recharge the batteries. The 100 mpg figure is not what the EPA came up with. The 100 mpg figure is what GM is hoping to achieve if they can get the EPA to categorize the vehicle as an electric vehicle and presumably not count when the ICE is running. Otherwise, the Volt would be just another hybrid. GM's approach to making the Volt marketable does seem unique. There are probably not a lot of people willing or able to pay $40,000 for the car so get all taxpayers, even those who are not buying one, to kick in a little so that Volt buyers don't have to pay the entire premium cost but not give the credit to cars with a different design philosophy; and get the EPA to change how it calculates fuel economy to achieve a 100 mpg rating. I don't particularly care for the political maneuvering, but I like the concept if the car were affordably priced. People who use their cars primarily to drive to a commuter station and get groceries; the little old lady who only drives to church on Sunday; people who work close to home and rarely take trips; mall and campus security services that patrol a relatively small area at low speeds; soccer parents who don't venture far from their neighborhood; and people with another conventional vehicle for longer trips could benefit from a clean, economical-to-operate, short-range vehicle that is larger than a golf cart. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) It sounds to me like the 100mpg rating is based on the relative cost in KWH to operate the car (4-6 cents per mile) vs. the 16 cents per mile to operate a similarly sized ICE-only car at $4 per gallon. Per mile operating cost is not a bad way to make the comparison, although it ignores the times the Volt will need to use its ICE. > I got my original information from Automotive news, one of the best sources > of industry information because the writers are automotive experts, not just [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It sounds to me like the 100mpg rating is based on the relative cost in KWH to operate the car (4-6 cents per mile) vs. the 16 cents per mile to operate a similarly sized ICE-only car at $4 per gallon. Per mile operating cost is not a bad way to make the comparison, although it ignores the times the Volt will need to use its ICE. ********* I think that the EPA uses a conversion where the amount of energy in fuel is converted to kilowatts used electrically. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>>>>> Hybrids have never made sense for long-distance driving as you're >>>>>>> always [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > Jack As Uncle Vito pointed out, people probably would not appreciate being stranded if the batteries on their electric-only car ran out, at least I sure would not ;-) SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, > that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > another car that gets 25 mpg if you have to make a long trip. Can't > GM do any better than that? Hell, I was getting better mpg than that with my 7A 1.8 with 4 speed automatic trans 10 years ago. Then they wonder why I'm not looking at GM products? Charles the Curmudgeon >> OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, >> that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Charles the Curmudgeon Exactly. I'd sooner get a gas hog that I enjoyed driving than toss 40K at GM for an unproven new gas miser. (and when you combine the words "GM" and "unproven" you could be looking at real trouble. I'm just imagining the new stuff that GM has put out over the years that ended up being duds. We could start with the late, unlamented Cadillac Catera (the Caddy that zigs...all the way to the wrecking yard). > I'd sooner get a gas hog that I enjoyed driving than toss 40K at > GM for an unproven new gas miser. GM is fooling itself if it thinks it can sell the Volt for anywhere close to $40K. The Volt will sell for about the same price as the Prius because that's the highest price the mass market will accept for such a car. You mean the "smart buyers" that are paying $5,000 over MSRP for a Pruis, an amount that will buy all of the fuel for a simalar sized and equipped corolla? >> I'd sooner get a gas hog that I enjoyed driving than toss 40K at >> GM for an unproven new gas miser. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Prius because that's the highest price the mass market will accept for > such a car. >OK, the just-introduced Chevy Volt can go 40 miles on a single charge, >that's pretty impressive I guess. However, the range is "over 300 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >another car that gets 25 mpg if you have to make a long trip. Can't >GM do any better than that? Sure they can, and so can Toyota or Honda or Ford or Mercedes... All they have to do is electrify the highway, and you could drive coast to coast without a drop of gasoline. Go look up the Wampfler Inductive Power System for one way that can be done /right now/ - It's already in wide use for industrial systems, like parts delivery robotic transports in factories. The power cable embedded in the floor (or center of a highway lane) provides power, directional guidance (sensors steer the vehicle to stay centered on the cable), and two-way data transmission for control and safety. Only thing holding back fully automated vehicles on the highway is computer technology for spacing and safety - as in emergency stops or obstructions in the road, you still have to sit there and drive the car or truck for now. But as long as you stay in the electrified lane, you can shut the engine off and run electric. And they have an underwater version they used when they rebuilt Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage at Disneyland - no more Diesel or CNG engine gensets in the rear of the Submarines running the propulsion, lights and air conditioning - the inductive power cable along the track runs it all. Electrify the highway, and the only thing that limits your range is the Human Element. You still need to stop to eat and sleep and use the facilities. If you have a van conversion or motorhome, and airplane style dual controls for multiple drivers working relay, barring flat tires you could go coast to coast non-stop. Though you might have to stop halfway to empty the holding tanks and take on more fresh water. --<< Bruce >>-- |
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