Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / January 2009
O2 Sensor?
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Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 02:43 GMT ( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE )
I had no idea about this but Bosch suggests replacing the oxygen sensor with every tuneup? Huh? Mine has never been replaced as far as I know. ( we got the car at 45k miles, it now has 172k )
http://www.boschautoparts.com/Products/OxygenSensors/
Seriously?
I priced a Bosch one at about $60 with tax.
Is there any real advantage to using a Toyota part on this? ( outside of to Toyota, because it costs more? )
Ray O - 14 Dec 2008 04:43 GMT >( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE ) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Is there any real advantage to using a Toyota part on this? > ( outside of to Toyota, because it costs more? ) Toyota does not recommend replacing O2 sensors as part of routine maintenance. Perhaps Bosch does not have confidence in the longevity of their sensors, which might be a good reason to stick to OEM, or maybe Bosch is just trying to sell more parts.
I have heard of problems when people use non-OEM sensors on Toyotas, but Bosch should be OK to use if you use the one with the correct factory connector. Some of the cheaper O2 sensors do not have the correct factory connector and you have to splice wires. The splices often end up being short-lived and you end up with problems within a year or so.
In any event, if you do not have a check engine light illuminated, I wouldn't worry about your O2 sensors.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 05:27 GMT "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote :
>>( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE ) >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > In any event, if you do not have a check engine light illuminated, I > wouldn't worry about your O2 sensors. Don't they get clogged after awhile?
Ray O - 14 Dec 2008 06:04 GMT > "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Don't they get clogged after awhile? "Contaminated" is probably a more accurate description than "clogged." Like I said, a malfunctioning O2 sensor usually will be indicated by a check engine light but if you are worried, it is pretty easy to check your O2 sensor's function with a volt meter. I always recommend checking something before blindly replacing it.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 06:46 GMT "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote :
>> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote : >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > pretty easy to check your O2 sensor's function with a volt meter. I > always recommend checking something before blindly replacing it. Malfunctioning yes, I understand that, but:
http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/4Runner/tech/O2_Sensor/
After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2 Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms (other than lower gas mileage) with the tools I was using. It turns out that the O2 swing cycle shown in the photographs is the swing time of the overall system and not just the O2 sensor itself. To really examine the performance the O2 sensor, for example to determine if it was developing a lean or rich offset, one would have to use a digital volt meter with an averaging feature connected directly to the sensor and look for the 450mV centerline signal in a known, properly performing system centered at the 50% duty cycle. To measure responsiveness, one would have to use a laboratory scope and setup specifically for this measurement as a properly performing O2 sensor has response times in the neighborhood of a few hundreds of a second, not the average 1.8 seconds seen as the overall system response time by an OBDII scanner.
So when do you replace the O2 sensor? The answer turns out to be simple. Per a trusted Toyota service manager's experience and, experiences posted in the Toyota 4x4wire Forum, the O2 sensor needs to be replaced on average every 75,000 miles to maintain optimum gas mileage performance.
Ray O - 14 Dec 2008 07:03 GMT > "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > on average every 75,000 miles to maintain optimum gas mileage > performance. If your objective is to maintain optimum fuel mileage regardless of the cost, then replace the O2 sensor often.
If your objective is to balance the money saved from maintaining good fuel efficiency with the cost of replacing an O2 sensor, you can use the method developed by the folks who designed your car, which I explained, and which I use on my personal vehicles.
 Signature Ray O (former trusted? Toyota district service manager, called on 50+ Toyota dealer service departments)
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 08:36 GMT "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote :
>> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote : >> [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > the method developed by the folks who designed your car, which I > explained, and which I use on my personal vehicles. Well the MPG hasn't been so great this past year or so.
Mark A - 14 Dec 2008 16:04 GMT > Well the MPG hasn't been so great this past year or so. If you are going to keep your car for awhile, go ahead and replace the O2 sensor(s) if you suspect it is bad. It is likely that it will eventually go bad anyway. I had my front break pads replaced even though there was probably another 10,000 miles on them, because my car was in the shop for something else and my time was too valuable to worry about having to replace the pads later.
Regarding the recommendation from Bosch, remember that on new cars the tune-up interval is 100,000 miles (mainly because the only thing in a tune-up these days is replacing the platinum spark plugs). Also remember that they are in business to make money, and the more Bosch products you buy, the more money they make.
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 22:56 GMT "Mark A" <someone@someone.com> wrote :
>> Well the MPG hasn't been so great this past year or so. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > remember that they are in business to make money, and the more Bosch > products you buy, the more money they make. Yes, I understand that. :)
Ray O - 14 Dec 2008 18:31 GMT <snipped>>
> Well the MPG hasn't been so great this past year or so. Keep in mind that on a 5 year old vehicle operated where salt is used on roads, the O2 sensor may be rusted in place. Hopefully, this won't be the case, but be prepared to replace the exhaust manifold as well (probably an extra $300 or so) if it strips when removing the old sensor. In my 35 years (some of it spent fixing cars that dealers couldn't fix) or so working on cars, I have become a big believer in the adage, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
You may get 1 or 2 MPG better fuel economy with a new sensor. People claim bigger improvements, but I doubt if your fuel economy will improve more than that. There is also the possibility that your sensor is fine and you will see no measurable improvement in fuel economy.
You can do the math on whether or not replacing the O2 sensor might be cost effective.
Here is an example: 10,000 miles driven per year divided by your current MPG (25 in this example) = 400 gallons of fuel 400 gallons of fuel times an average fuel price of $.50 = $600 in fuel.
10,000 miles divided by (the improved 26 MPG) = 384.6 gallons of fuel 384.6 X $1.50 = $577 in fuel, or a $23 improvement over 10,000 miles.
10,000mi. divided by 27 MPG = 370 gallons 370 X $1.5 = $555 in fuel, or a $45 improvement.
Assuming that you do not need to spend additional money to replace the exhaust manifold and that the cost of a replacement O2 sensor is $60 with no labor and you already have the tools to do the job, a $23 improvement will take a little under 3 years at 10,000 miles per year to break event, and a $45 improvement will take about a year and a half to break even.
Obviously, there are a lot of variables in this equation. More miles driven and higher fuel costs will speed up the break even, and higher replacement costs like a stripped manifold, including labor charges, or lost productivity while the vehicle is not usable will slow down or even eliminate any savings.
Unless something is actually malfunctioning, there usually is not one trick or fix that will make a dramatic improvement in fuel economy. There are a lot of other things you can do that can add up to improved fuel economy, and a lot of them cost nothing to implement or are part of routine maintenance that is recommended by the folks who designed your car.
This is an apples and oranges comparison, but my car with a 4.3 liter V8 gets 18 city/26 hwy in the winter, 19/27 in the summer with the original O2 sensor. The 4.3 liter is roughly 2.3 times the displacement of the 1.8 liter in a Corolla but I doubt if the Corolla gets 2.3 times the fuel economy. I', cheap so I only use the tricks that cost me nothing to improve fuel economy.
 Signature Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 22:57 GMT "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote :
><snipped>> >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > well (probably an extra $300 or so) if it strips when removing the > old sensor. The manifold was replaced a few months ago, due to a big crack in it.
Ray O - 14 Dec 2008 23:01 GMT > "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The manifold was replaced a few months ago, due to a big crack in it. That's when you should have installed a new O2 sensor, rather than spending time trying to get the old one out. You should check the repair order to see if a new one was installed at that time.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Hachiroku ハチロク - 14 Dec 2008 14:33 GMT > After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2 > Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms > (other than lower gas mileage) with the tools I was using. Hmmm...are you really a girl? Where are you? Can you replace transmissions and U-joints? ;)
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 23:19 GMT =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote
>> After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2 >> Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms >> (other than lower gas mileage) with the tools I was using. > > Hmmm...are you really a girl? I didn't write that, it was at that site.
> Where are you? > Can you replace transmissions and U-joints? ;) No, about all I do is my own plugs, dist caps, the easy top side stuff.
Don't even mess with my own oil changes.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 15 Dec 2008 21:18 GMT > =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Don't even mess with my own oil changes. Shoot. You know, kinda like the ad: Seeking woman with bass boat; Object: Matrimony. Please send picture of boat... ;)
Sarah Houston - 16 Dec 2008 06:46 GMT =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote :
>> =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@e86.GTS> >> wrote [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Shoot. You know, kinda like the ad: Seeking woman with bass boat; > Object: Matrimony. Please send picture of boat... ;)
:) larry moe 'n curly - 14 Dec 2008 20:37 GMT > After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2 > Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > look for the 450mV centerline signal in a known, properly performing > system centered at the 50% duty cycle. Are there digital voltage meters that don't average semi-fast signals? I think for testing O2 sensors, a meter with a fast-reacting bar graph would be better.
> To measure responsiveness, one would have to use a laboratory scope Why? It's just a low frequency signal that any regular scope, or even a cheapo handheld 1 MHz scope/DVM can display.
Do any owner's manuals mention a replacement interval for the O2 sensors, that is, for vehicles made since the mid-1980s?
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 23:28 GMT "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote :
>> After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2 >> Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Do any owner's manuals mention a replacement interval for the O2 > sensors, that is, for vehicles made since the mid-1980s? I googled and found:
http://www.autohausaz.com/html/emissions-oxygen_sensors.html
Oxygen Sensors Don't Last Forever Here's What Happens As They Age
As an oxygen sensor ages, contaminants from normal combustion and oil ash accumulate on the sensing element. This reduces the sensor's ability to respond quickly to changes in the air/fuel mixture. The sensor slows down and becomes "sluggish".
At the same time, the sensor's output voltage may not be as high as it once was, giving the false impression that the air/fuel mixture is leaner than it actually is. The result can be a richer-than-normal air/fuel mixture under various operating conditions that causes fuel consumption and emissions to rise.
The problem may not be noticed right away because the change in performance occurs gradually. But, over time, the situation will get worse, ultimately requiring the sensor to be replaced to restore peak engine performance. ...
Don't Wait For Failure Replace Your Oxygen Sensor as Normal Preventive Maintenance
To minimize the consequences of normal aging, Bosch recommends oxygen sensor replacement for preventive maintenance at the following intervals: Type of Car Mileage Replacement Interval Recommended Unheated oxygen sensors on 1976 to early 1990s vehicles Every 30,000 - 50,000 miles
Heated (1st generation) oxygen sensors on mid-1980s to mid-1990s vehicles Every 60,000 miles
Heated (2nd generation) oxygen sensors on mid-1990s and newer vehicles Every 100,000 miles _________
I'm not sure what the 93 7AFE has, does anyone know?
I can just look under the hood...
when the weather warms a little, it's -1 here in west Denver right now.
Ray O - 15 Dec 2008 05:35 GMT > "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > when the weather warms a little, it's -1 here in west Denver right now. First generation heated O2 sensor
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Sarah Houston - 15 Dec 2008 06:55 GMT "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote :
>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote : >> [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > First generation heated O2 sensor Thanks. :)
Ray O - 15 Dec 2008 21:24 GMT <snipped>
>> First generation heated O2 sensor > > Thanks. :) You're welcome!
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Sarah Houston - 20 Dec 2008 06:19 GMT "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote :
>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote : >> [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > First generation heated O2 sensor This is odd. I checked with Toyota and they said my car needs a Toyota 89465-19535 part. I cant find if that's heated or not, but Bosch recommends a 12201 which Autozone says is 2 wire unheated.
Can anyone tell me please, if the Toyota part is heated or unheated?
Ray O - 20 Dec 2008 08:13 GMT > "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote : <snipped>
>>> I'm not sure what the 93 7AFE has, does anyone know? >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Can anyone tell me please, if the Toyota part is heated or unheated? It doesn't matter whether or not the sensor is heated if you are looking up replacement parts, but on Toyotas, 2 wire sensors are heated, which is why I mentioned above that your car has a first generation heated O2 sensor. On a single wire sensor, the signal travels from the sensor to the computer. On a 2 wire sensor, the sensor signal travels down one of the wires to the computer, and the heater voltage travels from the computer down to the sensor.
Even without a factory repair manual or wiring diagram, it is easy to check whether or not an O2 sensor is heated. When the With the engine cold, unplug the O2 sensor. Start the engine and measure voltage between each of the pins on the harness side of the connector and ground. If there is voltage between any of the pins and ground, the sensor is heated because the engine computer is sending power down the wire for the sensor heater.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Sarah Houston - 20 Dec 2008 08:54 GMT "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote :
>> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote : >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > sensor signal travels down one of the wires to the computer, and the > heater voltage travels from the computer down to the sensor. Um, ok, I'm just baffled as to why they would ever need to heat an O2 sensor anyway. The thing has 600+ degree gases going by it?
> Even without a factory repair manual or wiring diagram, it is easy to > check whether or not an O2 sensor is heated. When the With the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the sensor is heated because the engine computer is sending power > down the wire for the sensor heater. I don't care so much, as long as I get the right replacement part in there and it doesn't wind up blowing something expensive up.
But you're saying that doesnt matter? Like if I put that Bosch 12201 in, it should work fine and be ok?
Eternal Searcher - 20 Dec 2008 13:23 GMT > But you're saying that doesnt matter? Like if I put that Bosch 12201 in, > it should work fine and be ok? The likelihood of the Bosch working in your car is very low, so avoid it. Stick with OEM.
Sarah Houston - 24 Dec 2008 03:54 GMT Eternal Searcher <eternalsearcher@yahoo.ca.invalid> wrote :
>> But you're saying that doesnt matter? Like if I put that Bosch 12201 >> in, it should work fine and be ok? > > The likelihood of the Bosch working in your car is very low, so avoid > it. Stick with OEM. How come?
Do you work for Toyota?
Ray O - 20 Dec 2008 22:21 GMT > "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Um, ok, I'm just baffled as to why they would ever need to heat an O2 > sensor anyway. The thing has 600+ degree gases going by it? The sensor has to be operating temperature to work properly and is one of the parameters that has to be met for the engine computer control to go into closed loop operation. When the system is in closed loop mode, the sensor detects the amount of oxygen, or O2 in the exhaust gas and varies the voltage it puts out. The computer monitors the output voltage and adjusts the amount of fuel injected to try to maintain the optimal ratio of air to fuel. When the sensor is cold, it doesn't put out the proper voltage so almost all newer sensors are heated so they reach operating temperature more quickly and allow the system to go into closed loop operation.
The system will be in open loop mode under certain conditions, like cold coolant, cold O2 sensors, or when the throttle is open past a certain point. When the system is in open loop mode, the computer uses pre-determined default values to determine how much fuel to inject. While the engine will run fine in open loop mode, it is a little dirtier and uses a little more fuel.
>> Even without a factory repair manual or wiring diagram, it is easy to >> check whether or not an O2 sensor is heated. When the With the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > But you're saying that doesnt matter? Like if I put that Bosch 12201 in, > it should work fine and be ok? It doesn't matter as long as you have the correct replacement part number. I do not have any personal experience with Bosch O2 sensors, but I have seen problems with aftermarket ignition and emissions parts in Toyotas, so I usually prefer OEM. Bosh O2 sensors are probably OK, but their recommendation for a relatively short replacement interval would bother me, and I would be surprised if you get a noticeable improvement in fuel economy
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
larry moe 'n curly - 17 Dec 2008 04:12 GMT > "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote :
> After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2 > Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Oxygen Sensors Don't Last Forever > Here's What Happens As They Age
> Mileage Replacement Interval Recommended > Unheated oxygen sensors on 1976 to early 1990s vehicles [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Heated (2nd generation) oxygen sensors on mid-1990s and newer vehicles > Every 100,000 miles I'd have more faith in a website that isn't trying to sell the very product it's describing, like this one:
http://tinyurl.com/6ldlld
http://d-tips.com/General/Articles/article.aspx?id=/clients/Testing/Oxygen+Senso r+Testing/o2_sensors.art
I've never heard of an oxygen sensor needing replacement as long it could put out a hefty signal and its heating element worked (Ray? Tegger? Am I wrong?), so I wouldn't automatically replace it at any fixed mileage interval. Some cars provide ways to check the sensor indirectly, such as through a terminal that puts out an amplified version of its signal or by blinking the Check Engine light in a funny way (my 1998 Nissan shows the duty cycle of the sensor that way).
Ray O - 17 Dec 2008 05:35 GMT >> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > version of its signal or by blinking the Check Engine light in a funny > way (my 1998 Nissan shows the duty cycle of the sensor that way). That is basically what I have been saying all along. O2 sensors can get a little "lazy" and response more slowly than a brand new one, but OBD II ECU's monitor O2 sensor response and will generate a malfunction indicator light, AKA, check engine light if that condition occurs on two consecutive trips.
Some owners want a magic fix that will dramatically improve fuel economy. The O2 sensor's function is to reduce emissions, not improve fuel economy, and cars didn't start getting better fuel economy when O2 sensors were first installed.
The trick to improving fuel economy is by doing a lot of little things, like:
Avoid unnecessary idling. When waiting to pick up someone or running into a store or house to get something, shut the engine off. Cars get 0 MPG when idling.
When getting into the car, do everything in your routine first, like fasten your seat belt, adjust the mirrors and seats, put on your glasses, scrape the ice and snow, etc. and start the engine last.
After starting the engine, put the transmission in gear and drive - don't sit there idling waiting for the engine to warm up.
Accelerate gradually and smoothly; just before you reach your cruising speed, lift the throttle pedal slightly to signal the automatic transmission to upshift and lock the torque converter. The sooner the transmission is in high lock up, the better the fuel economy.
Hold a steady speed - speeding up and slowing down wastes fuel when accelerating. The engine uses more fuel when accelerating than idling or cruising.
Take your foot off the throttle when you see a red light up ahead.
Keep your tires inflated 5 or 6 PSI over the pressures listed on the door jamb or glove box. Underinflated tires his will make a bigger difference in fuel economy than am old O2 sensor.
Remove all unnecessary weight from the vehicle.
Use the automaker's recommended oil viscosity and type in the engine, transmission, and differential.
Combine trips - the engine uses more fuel when cold than when it is warmed up.
Take care of preventative maintenance on time and for Toyotas, use OEM ignition parts.
 Signature Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Don't drive with your left foot resting on the brake pedal
Mike Hunter - 18 Dec 2008 00:11 GMT O2 sensors, like the condenser of old, is the most changed GOOD part on todays cars. The condenser in it day would last the life of the car IF the points never burned up. I have a 1971 Pinto with nearly 300,000 miles that still has the original condenser
The O2 sensor should last the life of the car IF none of the components related to it function did not fail.
Basically the job of the O2 sensor is to send a four to twenty milliamp (1V to 5V) signal of the predetermined O2 level, to the microprocessor for it to proper adjustment of the fuel/air ratio for the current weather and driving conditions.
If it is fouled because of a dirty injector, bad plug, wire, air clearer, idle sensor etc. and it is operating outside of its design parameters, as a result, it will illuminate the check engine enunciator.
Once the fault is detected and eliminated and the O2 sensor cleaned, it should once again function as designed.
The problem is most analyzing will send a O2 sensor defective code IF the tech has nto first checker the basics for engine function.
If an effected O2 sensor it returned to the manufacture under warranty they will test if and charge back the person that did the warranty work.
In our shops many times it was to our advantage to change our the sensor then run the vehicle to see if the fault that caused it to fail was and intermittent fault that we had corrected or the condition that caused it changed. If so we cleaned the sensor and reused it in one of the customers other fleet cars. It was indeed bad and that was a rarity, we sent in a warranty claim, if still in effect.
>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > version of its signal or by blinking the Check Engine light in a funny > way (my 1998 Nissan shows the duty cycle of the sensor that way). nm5k@wt.net - 24 Dec 2008 13:03 GMT On Dec 14, 2:37 pm, "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencu...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Are there digital voltage meters that don't average semi-fast > signals? I think for testing O2 sensors, a meter with a fast-reacting > bar graph would be better. I use an older Simpson digital VOM, with peak hold, avg, and it also has a bar graph. It' s a true RMS meter. It's the one I usually grab for O2 looking.. That has been a good meter over the years. It used to be in the air force at one time.. Still has the last military calibration sticker on it.. About 1985 or so...
> > To measure responsiveness, one would have to use a laboratory scope > > Why? It's just a low frequency signal that any regular scope, or even > a cheapo handheld 1 MHz scope/DVM can display. Yep, but measuring time would be a lot more accurate with the scope.. But saying that, I don't use my scope for O2 sensor checking much.. What I look for is a fast corrective response to the mixture changes, and that's it's holding the mixture at the point it should be.. Not too lean, not too rich.
> Do any owner's manuals mention a replacement interval for the O2 > sensors, that is, for vehicles made since the mid-1980s? Dunno. But I don't normally change sensors as part of upkeep. I'll only change a sensor if I see a lot of data that seems to point to a bad sensor. Then, I might break down and try a new one. IE: if I was getting lower mpg, I'd do a through check on all systems before I even thought about changing the O2 sensor. As long as the sensors are not abused by excess oil, chemicals, etc, they last for a long time. Ditto for Cat converters... OEM converters last a long time if not abused.. If there was a part that was the most often misdiagnosed and replaced when not needed, it's probably the cat converters. And the worst part is many aftermarket converters are pure junk compared to OEM. I've seen brand new 3rd party converters that were actually worse than the old OEM unit they replaced when it comes to certain scores like NOX. Anyway, I would not replace any emissions parts unless they are proven to be bad with a through diagnosis of the whole system. BTW, when changing a sensor, always heat the engine and exhaust pipes first before trying to take it off. Usually makes it much easier to break loose, vs a cold one. If it's an old one with lots of crud, I'll spray rustbuster on it and let it sit for quite a while, and then heat the pipes and see if it breaks loose. So far, I've never had a problem as long as the pipe is hot. And like they already said, always use anti seize paste on the new one, but never get any on the sensor itself. Many sensors will come with the past already on the threads. If not, get some...
larry moe 'n curly - 24 Dec 2008 15:30 GMT n...@wt.net wrote:
> On Dec 14, 2:37�pm, "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencu...@my-deja.com> > wrote:
> > Do any owner's manuals mention a replacement interval for the O2 > > sensors, that is, for vehicles made since the mid-1980s? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Ditto for Cat converters... OEM converters last a long time if not > abused.. ..or stolen. It finally happened to my Nissan Frontier, but at least the thieves simply unbolted mine and didn't saw through the exhaust pipes.
> If there was a part that was the most often misdiagnosed > and replaced when not needed, it's probably the cat converters. > And the worst part is many aftermarket converters are pure junk > compared to OEM. I've seen brand new 3rd party converters > that were actually worse than the old OEM unit they replaced > when it comes to certain scores like NOX. I put in a cat made by Eastern Catalytic. Are they any good? My truck is OBD II but doesn't have an O2 sensor downstream from the cat, and the emissions testing stations here don't stick a probe into the tailpipe of OBDII vehicles.
nm5k@wt.net - 30 Dec 2008 15:10 GMT On Dec 24, 9:30 am, "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencu...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I put in a cat made by Eastern Catalytic. Are they any good? My > truck is OBD II but doesn't have an O2 sensor downstream from the cat, > and the emissions testing stations here don't stick a probe into the > tailpipe of OBDII vehicles. If the system thinks everything is ok, and is not reading an error code, then I would think it should pass. They don't sniff mine either.. They just plug in and let the puter tell the story. As long as it's run enough cycles to not be flagged as a "recent reset", and is spitting out no codes, should pass I would think. As far as that brand, no idea.. I'm sure all brands are not equal. So it might be ok, but so far I've found OEM cats to generally be a good bit better than most aftermarket versions. Course, they charge the $$$$ for em... :( I'm glad my Corolla sits low to the ground.. They would have to jack it up. I keep it in the garage too.. They try to get it there, they may have to dodge a few rounds of .40 S&W.. :/ With the medical bills, I don't see it as a financially viable endeavor for them.
Tomes - 31 Dec 2008 00:32 GMT <nm5k@wt.net>.. If the system thinks everything is ok, and is not reading an error code, then I would think it should pass. They don't sniff mine either.. They just plug in and let the puter tell the story. As long as it's run enough cycles to not be flagged as a "recent reset", and is spitting out no codes, should pass I would think. =================================== OK, the 'recent reset' thing is my question here.
When one clears the codes, does it really have some output reading that tells the inspection station that the codes were reset? Or does clearing codes just erase what is there and leave it clean? I do know that if one pulls the power to clear the codes one gets a 'not ready' output until it goes through a few cycles. Does it do the 'not ready' thing after a code clearing via a hand held scanner?
When I clear codes the scanner just shows 'no codes'. Tomes
nm5k@wt.net - 31 Dec 2008 02:06 GMT > OK, the 'recent reset' thing is my question here. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > When I clear codes the scanner just shows 'no codes'. > Tomes I'm not sure. I think it's the "not ready" message that tips off the station that it's been reset. I'm not sure how long it take for the system to do all it's tests and say it's ready.. Some of the systems take longer than others. But even if it was all reset, if you give yourself a few days before testing it should be ok. Maybe even as quick as a day or two if you drove enough run cycles.
Ray O - 31 Dec 2008 03:36 GMT > <nm5k@wt.net>.. > If the system thinks everything is ok, and is not reading an [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > When I clear codes the scanner just shows 'no codes'. > Tomes Some trouble codes have 2-trip detection logic, which means that the electronic control module (ECM) has to see the same problem from a sensor on 2 consecutive trips. Conversely, if the information from the sensor is good on 2 consecutive trips, the sensor is considered "ready." If the ECM has detected a problem on one of the last 2 trips, the problem is considered "pending." When trouble codes are reset, either through a scanner or by pulling a fuse or battery cable, all of the ECM's memory for trouble codes are cleared and so the data has to be re-stored for the ECM to be ready.
On order to re-store all of the data, every sensor has to send signals to the ECM, some on 2 different trips. Some sensors like O2 sensors need to warm up before they work, and others need meet certain conditions, like the torque converter locking up in overdrive or the vehicle reaching a certain speed, etc.
The factory repair manuals list what kind of drive cycle is needed for the ECM to be "ready."
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Tomes - 31 Dec 2008 13:18 GMT "Ray O" ..
> "Tomes" ... >> <nm5k@wt.net>.. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > The factory repair manuals list what kind of drive cycle is needed for the > ECM to be "ready." OK, let me restate my query from the perspective of trying to beat the inspection. I know that if you pull the fuse it will not pass because the output an actual 'not ready' message on the inspection equipment. Will it say the same thing if the code was cleared from a scanner? Tomes
Ray O - 31 Dec 2008 16:32 GMT > "Ray O" .. >> "Tomes" ... [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > say the same thing if the code was cleared from a scanner? > Tomes The computer will read "not ready" if you clear the code from an OBD II scanner until two readiness monitor drive cycles have been driven.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Tomes - 02 Jan 2009 20:52 GMT >> OK, let me restate my query from the perspective of trying to beat the >> inspection. I know that if you pull the fuse it will not pass because [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The computer will read "not ready" if you clear the code from an OBD II > scanner until two readiness monitor drive cycles have been driven. Thanks, much appreciated. Tomes
Ray O - 03 Jan 2009 06:42 GMT >>> OK, let me restate my query from the perspective of trying to beat the >>> inspection. I know that if you pull the fuse it will not pass because [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, much appreciated. > Tomes You're welcome!
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
nm5k@wt.net - 01 Jan 2009 04:15 GMT > OK, let me restate my query from the perspective of trying to beat the > inspection. I know that if you pull the fuse it will not pass because the > output an actual 'not ready' message on the inspection equipment. Will it > say the same thing if the code was cleared from a scanner? > Tomes I would be wondering why it wouldn't pass legally. Do you have a code that keeps kicking in that is also turning the light on? After it does all it's test cycles, and it does not show an engine light, it should pass. Well, unless maybe it had a "pending" flag it was waiting to decide on before flipping the light on.. But as long as I'd driven it long enough to make sure it had done it's two run cycles for all the tests, and the light stayed off, I'd think it should pass. I think it even does some EVAP tests when the car is off and sitting... :/ You can actually hear the pump hummm.. I heard it one day when I was in the garage and close to the car.. Kinda weird..
Hachiroku ハチロク - 14 Dec 2008 14:33 GMT > I have heard of problems when people use non-OEM sensors on Toyotas, but > Bosch should be OK to use if you use the one with the correct factory > connector. Some of the cheaper O2 sensors do not have the correct factory > connector and you have to splice wires. The splices often end up being > short-lived and you end up with problems within a year or so. I replaced the O2 sensors in my Tercel with Bosch sensors. They are probably the best AM sensors you can get, if you can't get Denso. Also, I was working at a CarQuest when I did it, so I paid about $35 each for them.
And, when *I* do splices, they *STAY* spliced! ;)
I had no problems with them. Fuel economy and performance actually increased, probably mainly for the reason they were new.
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 23:18 GMT =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote :
>> I have heard of problems when people use non-OEM sensors on Toyotas, >> but Bosch should be OK to use if you use the one with the correct [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I had no problems with them. Fuel economy and performance actually > increased, probably mainly for the reason they were new. Well someone here awhile back, was saying that they get clogged after awhile, so the resistance wouldn't matter that much then, eh?
I wonder what additives like BG44k do to them?
Seems like I was briefly getting better MPG when the tank had that in it.
ransley - 14 Dec 2008 09:48 GMT > ( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE ) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Is there any real advantage to using a Toyota part on this? > ( outside of to Toyota, because it costs more? ) Have a mechanic put it on a scope it will tell you what needs replacing, if milage is bad and a tunup is due , do one completely.
Jeff Strickland - 14 Dec 2008 17:23 GMT >( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE ) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Is there any real advantage to using a Toyota part on this? > ( outside of to Toyota, because it costs more? ) My guess is that Bosch is interested in selling parts. I would not hesitate to install a Bosch O2 Sensor when the engine calls for one (by causing the Check light to come on). I do not see a need to replace one simply because time or miles have passed.
NickySantoro - 16 Dec 2008 15:26 GMT >( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE ) > >I had no idea about this but Bosch suggests replacing the oxygen sensor >with every tuneup? They manufacture and sell O2 sensors, not that that would give them any specific agenda.
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