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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / January 2009

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O2 Sensor?

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Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 02:43 GMT
( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE )

I had no idea about this but Bosch suggests replacing the oxygen sensor
with every tuneup? Huh? Mine has never been replaced as far as I know. (
we got the car at 45k miles, it now has 172k )

http://www.boschautoparts.com/Products/OxygenSensors/

Seriously?

I priced a Bosch one at about $60 with tax.

Is there any real advantage to using a Toyota part on this?
( outside of to Toyota, because it costs more? )
Ray O - 14 Dec 2008 04:43 GMT
>( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE )
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Is there any real advantage to using a Toyota part on this?
> ( outside of to Toyota, because it costs more? )

Toyota does not recommend replacing O2 sensors as part of routine
maintenance.  Perhaps Bosch does not have confidence in the longevity of
their sensors, which might be a good reason to stick to OEM, or maybe Bosch
is just trying to sell more parts.

I have heard of problems when people use non-OEM sensors on Toyotas, but
Bosch should be OK to use if you use the one with the correct factory
connector.  Some of the cheaper O2 sensors do not have the correct factory
connector and you have to splice wires.  The splices often end up being
short-lived and you end up with problems within a year or so.

In any event, if you do not have a check engine light illuminated, I
wouldn't worry about your O2 sensors.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 05:27 GMT
"Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :

>>( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE )
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> In any event, if you do not have a check engine light illuminated, I
> wouldn't worry about your O2 sensors.

Don't they get clogged after awhile?
Ray O - 14 Dec 2008 06:04 GMT
> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Don't they get clogged after awhile?

"Contaminated" is probably a more accurate description than "clogged."  Like
I said, a malfunctioning O2 sensor usually will be indicated by a check
engine light but if you are worried, it is pretty easy to check your O2
sensor's function with a volt meter.  I always recommend checking something
before blindly replacing it.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 06:46 GMT
"Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :

>> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> pretty easy to check your O2 sensor's function with a volt meter.  I
> always recommend checking something before blindly replacing it.

Malfunctioning yes, I understand that, but:

http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/4Runner/tech/O2_Sensor/

After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2
Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms
(other than lower gas mileage) with the tools I was using. It turns out
that the O2 swing cycle shown in the photographs is the swing time of
the overall system and not just the O2 sensor itself. To really examine
the performance the O2 sensor, for example to determine if it was
developing a lean or rich offset, one would have to use a digital volt
meter with an averaging feature connected directly to the sensor and
look for the 450mV centerline signal in a known, properly performing
system centered at the 50% duty cycle. To measure responsiveness, one
would have to use a laboratory scope and setup specifically for this
measurement as a properly performing O2 sensor has response times in the
neighborhood of a few hundreds of a second, not the average 1.8 seconds
seen as the overall system response time by an OBDII scanner.

So when do you replace the O2 sensor? The answer turns out to be simple.
Per a trusted Toyota service manager's experience and, experiences
posted in the Toyota 4x4wire Forum, the O2 sensor needs to be replaced
on average every 75,000 miles to maintain optimum gas mileage
performance.
Ray O - 14 Dec 2008 07:03 GMT
> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> on average every 75,000 miles to maintain optimum gas mileage
> performance.

If your objective is to maintain optimum fuel mileage regardless of the
cost, then replace the O2 sensor often.

If your objective is to balance the money saved from maintaining good fuel
efficiency with the cost of replacing an O2 sensor, you can use the method
developed by the folks who designed your car, which I explained, and which I
use on my personal vehicles.

Signature

Ray O
(former trusted? Toyota district service manager, called on 50+ Toyota
dealer service departments)

Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 08:36 GMT
"Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :

>> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> the method developed by the folks who designed your car, which I
> explained, and which I use on my personal vehicles.

Well the MPG hasn't been so great this past year or so.
Mark A - 14 Dec 2008 16:04 GMT
> Well the MPG hasn't been so great this past year or so.

If you are going to keep your car for awhile, go ahead and replace the O2
sensor(s) if you suspect it is bad. It is likely that it will eventually go
bad anyway. I had my front break pads replaced even though there was
probably another 10,000 miles on them, because my car was in the shop for
something else and my time was too valuable to worry about having to replace
the pads later.

Regarding the recommendation from Bosch, remember that on new cars the
tune-up interval is 100,000 miles (mainly because the only thing in a
tune-up these days is replacing the platinum spark plugs). Also remember
that they are in business to make money, and the more Bosch products you
buy, the more money they make.
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 22:56 GMT
"Mark A" <someone@someone.com>  wrote :

>> Well the MPG hasn't been so great this past year or so.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> remember that they are in business to make money, and the more Bosch
> products you buy, the more money they make.

Yes, I understand that. :)
Ray O - 14 Dec 2008 18:31 GMT
<snipped>>

> Well the MPG hasn't been so great this past year or so.

Keep in mind that on a 5 year old vehicle operated where salt is used on
roads, the O2 sensor may be rusted in place.  Hopefully, this won't be the
case, but be prepared to replace the exhaust manifold as well (probably an
extra $300 or so) if it strips when removing the old sensor.  In my 35 years
(some of it spent fixing cars that dealers couldn't fix) or so working on
cars, I have become a big believer in the adage, "if it ain't broke, don't
fix it."

You may get 1 or 2 MPG better fuel economy with a new sensor.  People claim
bigger improvements, but I doubt if your fuel economy will improve more than
that.  There is also the possibility that your sensor is fine and you will
see no measurable improvement in fuel economy.

You can do the math on whether or not replacing the O2 sensor might be cost
effective.

Here is an example:
10,000 miles driven per year divided by your current MPG (25 in this
example) = 400 gallons of fuel
400 gallons of fuel times an average fuel price of $.50 = $600 in fuel.

10,000 miles divided by (the improved 26 MPG) = 384.6 gallons of fuel
384.6 X $1.50 = $577 in fuel, or a $23 improvement over 10,000 miles.

10,000mi. divided by 27 MPG = 370 gallons
370 X $1.5 = $555 in fuel, or a $45 improvement.

Assuming that you do not need to spend additional money to replace the
exhaust manifold and that the cost of a replacement O2 sensor is $60 with no
labor and you already have the tools to do the job, a $23 improvement will
take a little under 3 years at 10,000 miles per year to break event, and a
$45 improvement will take about a year and a half to break even.

Obviously, there are a lot of variables in this equation.  More miles driven
and higher fuel costs will speed up the break even, and higher replacement
costs like a stripped manifold, including labor charges, or lost
productivity while the vehicle is not usable will slow down or even
eliminate any savings.

Unless something is actually malfunctioning, there usually is not one trick
or fix that will make a dramatic improvement in fuel economy.  There are a
lot of other things you can do that can add up to improved fuel economy, and
a lot of them cost nothing to implement or are part of routine maintenance
that is recommended by the folks who designed your car.

This is an apples and oranges comparison, but my car with a 4.3 liter V8
gets 18 city/26 hwy in the winter, 19/27 in the summer with the original O2
sensor.  The 4.3 liter is roughly 2.3 times the displacement of the 1.8
liter in a Corolla but I doubt if the Corolla gets 2.3 times the fuel
economy.  I', cheap so I only use the tricks that cost me nothing to improve
fuel economy.

Signature

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 22:57 GMT
"Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :

><snipped>>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> well (probably an extra $300 or so) if it strips when removing the
> old sensor.  

The manifold was replaced a few months ago, due to a big crack in it.
Ray O - 14 Dec 2008 23:01 GMT
> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> The manifold was replaced a few months ago, due to a big crack in it.

That's when you should have installed a new O2 sensor, rather than spending
time trying to get the old one out.  You should check the repair order to
see if a new one was installed at that time.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Hachiroku ハチロク - 14 Dec 2008 14:33 GMT
> After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2
> Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms
> (other than lower gas mileage) with the tools I was using.

Hmmm...are you really a girl?
Where are you?
Can you replace transmissions and U-joints?   ;)
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 23:19 GMT
=?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@e86.GTS>  wrote

>> After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2
>> Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms
>> (other than lower gas mileage) with the tools I was using.
>
> Hmmm...are you really a girl?

I didn't write that, it was at that site.

> Where are you?
> Can you replace transmissions and U-joints?   ;)

No, about all I do is my own plugs, dist caps, the easy top side stuff.

Don't even mess with my own oil changes.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 15 Dec 2008 21:18 GMT
> =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@e86.GTS>  wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Don't even mess with my own oil changes.

Shoot. You know, kinda like the ad: Seeking woman with bass boat; Object:
Matrimony. Please send picture of boat...  ;)
Sarah Houston - 16 Dec 2008 06:46 GMT
=?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@e86.GTS>
wrote :

>> =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@e86.GTS>
>> wrote
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Shoot. You know, kinda like the ad: Seeking woman with bass boat;
> Object: Matrimony. Please send picture of boat...  ;)

:)
larry moe 'n curly - 14 Dec 2008 20:37 GMT
> After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2
> Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> look for the 450mV centerline signal in a known, properly performing
> system centered at the 50% duty cycle.

Are there digital voltage meters that don't average semi-fast
signals?  I think for testing O2 sensors, a meter with a fast-reacting
bar graph would be better.

> To measure responsiveness, one would have to use a laboratory scope

Why?  It's just a low frequency signal that any regular scope, or even
a cheapo handheld 1 MHz scope/DVM can display.

Do any owner's manuals mention a replacement interval for the O2
sensors, that is, for vehicles made since the mid-1980s?
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 23:28 GMT
"larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com>  wrote :

>> After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2
>> Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Do any owner's manuals mention a replacement interval for the O2
> sensors, that is, for vehicles made since the mid-1980s?

I googled and found:

http://www.autohausaz.com/html/emissions-oxygen_sensors.html

Oxygen Sensors Don't Last Forever
Here's What Happens As They Age

As an oxygen sensor ages, contaminants from normal combustion and oil
ash accumulate on the sensing element. This reduces the sensor's ability
to respond quickly to changes in the air/fuel mixture. The sensor slows
down and becomes "sluggish".

At the same time, the sensor's output voltage may not be as high as it
once was, giving the false impression that the air/fuel mixture is
leaner than it actually is. The result can be a richer-than-normal
air/fuel mixture under various operating conditions that causes fuel
consumption and emissions to rise.

The problem may not be noticed right away because the change in
performance occurs gradually. But, over time, the situation will get
worse, ultimately requiring the sensor to be replaced to restore peak
engine performance.
...

Don't Wait For Failure
Replace Your Oxygen Sensor as Normal Preventive Maintenance

To minimize the consequences of normal aging, Bosch recommends oxygen
sensor replacement for preventive maintenance at the following
intervals:
Type of Car
   
Mileage Replacement Interval Recommended
Unheated oxygen sensors on 1976 to early 1990s vehicles
Every 30,000 - 50,000 miles

Heated (1st generation) oxygen sensors on mid-1980s to mid-1990s
vehicles
Every 60,000 miles

Heated (2nd generation) oxygen sensors on mid-1990s and newer vehicles
Every 100,000 miles
_________

I'm not sure what the 93 7AFE has, does anyone know?

I can just look under the hood...

when the weather warms a little, it's -1 here in west Denver right now.
Ray O - 15 Dec 2008 05:35 GMT
> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com>  wrote :
>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> when the weather warms a little, it's -1 here in west Denver right now.

First generation heated O2 sensor
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Sarah Houston - 15 Dec 2008 06:55 GMT
"Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :

>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com>  wrote :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
>
> First generation heated O2 sensor

Thanks. :)
Ray O - 15 Dec 2008 21:24 GMT
<snipped>
>> First generation heated O2 sensor
>
> Thanks. :)

You're welcome!
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Sarah Houston - 20 Dec 2008 06:19 GMT
"Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :

>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com>  wrote :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
>
> First generation heated O2 sensor

This is odd. I checked with Toyota and they said my car needs a Toyota
89465-19535 part. I cant find if that's heated or not, but Bosch
recommends a 12201 which Autozone says is 2 wire unheated.

Can anyone tell me please, if the Toyota part is heated or unheated?
Ray O - 20 Dec 2008 08:13 GMT
> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :

<snipped>
>>> I'm not sure what the 93 7AFE has, does anyone know?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Can anyone tell me please, if the Toyota part is heated or unheated?

It doesn't matter whether or not the sensor is heated if you are looking up
replacement parts, but on Toyotas, 2 wire sensors are heated, which is why I
mentioned above that your car has a first generation heated O2 sensor.  On a
single wire sensor, the signal travels from the sensor to the computer.  On
a 2 wire sensor, the sensor signal travels down one of the wires to the
computer, and the heater voltage travels from the computer down to the
sensor.

Even without a factory repair manual or wiring diagram, it is easy to check
whether or not an O2 sensor is heated.  When the With the engine cold,
unplug the O2 sensor.  Start the engine and measure voltage between each of
the pins on the harness side of the connector and ground.  If there is
voltage between any of the pins and ground, the sensor is heated because the
engine computer is sending power down the wire for the sensor heater.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Sarah Houston - 20 Dec 2008 08:54 GMT
"Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :

>> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> sensor signal travels down one of the wires to the computer, and the
> heater voltage travels from the computer down to the sensor.

Um, ok, I'm just baffled as to why they would ever need to heat an O2
sensor anyway. The thing has 600+ degree gases going by it?

> Even without a factory repair manual or wiring diagram, it is easy to
> check whether or not an O2 sensor is heated.  When the With the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the sensor is heated because the engine computer is sending power
> down the wire for the sensor heater.

I don't care so much, as long as I get the right replacement part in
there and it doesn't wind up blowing something expensive up.

But you're saying that doesnt matter? Like if I put that Bosch 12201 in,
it should work fine and be ok?
Eternal Searcher - 20 Dec 2008 13:23 GMT
> But you're saying that doesnt matter? Like if I put that Bosch 12201 in,
> it should work fine and be ok?

The likelihood of the Bosch working in your car is very low, so avoid it.
Stick with OEM.
Sarah Houston - 24 Dec 2008 03:54 GMT
Eternal Searcher <eternalsearcher@yahoo.ca.invalid>  wrote :

>> But you're saying that doesnt matter? Like if I put that Bosch 12201
>> in, it should work fine and be ok?
>
> The likelihood of the Bosch working in your car is very low, so avoid
> it. Stick with OEM.

How come?

Do you work for Toyota?
Ray O - 20 Dec 2008 22:21 GMT
> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>  wrote :
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Um, ok, I'm just baffled as to why they would ever need to heat an O2
> sensor anyway. The thing has 600+ degree gases going by it?

The sensor has to be operating temperature to work properly and is one of
the parameters that has to be met for the engine computer control to go into
closed loop operation.  When the system is in closed loop mode, the sensor
detects the amount of oxygen, or O2 in the exhaust gas and varies the
voltage it puts out.  The computer monitors the output voltage and adjusts
the amount of fuel injected to try to maintain the optimal ratio of air to
fuel.  When the sensor is cold, it doesn't put out the proper voltage so
almost all newer sensors are heated so they reach operating temperature more
quickly and allow the system to go into closed loop operation.

The system will be in open loop mode under certain conditions, like cold
coolant, cold O2 sensors, or when the throttle is open past a certain point.
When the system is in open loop mode, the computer uses pre-determined
default values to determine how much fuel to inject.  While the engine will
run fine in open loop mode, it is a little dirtier and uses a little more
fuel.

>> Even without a factory repair manual or wiring diagram, it is easy to
>> check whether or not an O2 sensor is heated.  When the With the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> But you're saying that doesnt matter? Like if I put that Bosch 12201 in,
> it should work fine and be ok?

It doesn't matter as long as you have the correct replacement part number.
I do not have any personal experience with Bosch O2 sensors, but I have seen
problems with aftermarket ignition and emissions parts in Toyotas, so I
usually prefer OEM.  Bosh O2 sensors are probably OK, but their
recommendation for a relatively short replacement interval would bother me,
and I would be surprised if you get a noticeable improvement in fuel economy
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

larry moe 'n curly - 17 Dec 2008 04:12 GMT
> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com>  wrote :

> After doing some extensive reading, it began to come clear how the O2
> Sensor performance could be off, yet not be able to see any symptoms
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Oxygen Sensors Don't Last Forever
> Here's What Happens As They Age

> Mileage Replacement Interval Recommended
> Unheated oxygen sensors on 1976 to early 1990s vehicles
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Heated (2nd generation) oxygen sensors on mid-1990s and newer vehicles
> Every 100,000 miles

I'd have more faith in a website that isn't trying to sell the very
product it's describing, like this one:

     http://tinyurl.com/6ldlld

     http://d-tips.com/General/Articles/article.aspx?id=/clients/Testing/Oxygen+Senso
r+Testing/o2_sensors.art


I've never heard of an oxygen sensor needing replacement as long it
could put out a hefty signal and its heating element worked (Ray?
Tegger?  Am I wrong?), so I wouldn't automatically replace it at any
fixed mileage interval.  Some cars provide ways to check the sensor
indirectly, such as through a terminal that puts out an amplified
version of its signal or by blinking the Check Engine light in a funny
way (my 1998 Nissan shows the duty cycle of the sensor that way).
Ray O - 17 Dec 2008 05:35 GMT
>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com>  wrote :
>
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> version of its signal or by blinking the Check Engine light in a funny
> way (my 1998 Nissan shows the duty cycle of the sensor that way).

That is basically what I have been saying all along.  O2 sensors can get a
little "lazy" and response more slowly than a brand new one, but OBD II
ECU's monitor O2 sensor response and will generate a malfunction indicator
light, AKA, check engine light if that condition occurs on two consecutive
trips.

Some owners want a magic fix that will dramatically improve fuel economy.
The O2 sensor's function is to reduce emissions, not improve fuel economy,
and cars didn't start getting better fuel economy when O2 sensors were first
installed.

The trick to improving fuel economy is by doing a lot of little things,
like:

Avoid unnecessary idling.  When waiting to pick up someone or running into a
store or house to get something, shut the engine off.  Cars get 0 MPG when
idling.

When getting into the car, do everything in your routine first, like fasten
your seat belt, adjust the mirrors and seats, put on your glasses, scrape
the ice and snow, etc. and start the engine last.

After starting the engine, put the transmission in gear and drive - don't
sit there idling waiting for the engine to warm up.

Accelerate gradually and smoothly; just before you reach your cruising
speed, lift the throttle pedal slightly to signal the automatic transmission
to upshift and lock the torque converter.  The sooner the transmission is in
high lock up, the better the fuel economy.

Hold a steady speed - speeding up and slowing down wastes fuel when
accelerating.  The engine uses more fuel when accelerating than idling or
cruising.

Take your foot off the throttle when you see a red light up ahead.

Keep your tires inflated 5 or 6 PSI over the pressures listed on the door
jamb or glove box.  Underinflated tires his will make a bigger difference in
fuel economy than am old O2 sensor.

Remove all unnecessary weight from the vehicle.

Use the automaker's recommended oil viscosity and type in the engine,
transmission, and differential.

Combine trips - the engine uses more fuel when cold than when it is warmed
up.

Take care of preventative maintenance on time and for Toyotas, use OEM
ignition parts.

Signature

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Don't drive with your left foot resting on the brake pedal

Mike Hunter - 18 Dec 2008 00:11 GMT
O2 sensors, like the condenser of old, is the most changed GOOD part on
todays cars.   The condenser in it day would last the life of the car IF the
points never burned up.   I have a 1971 Pinto with nearly 300,000 miles that
still has the original condenser

The O2 sensor should last the life of the car IF none of the components
related to it function did not fail.

Basically the job of the O2 sensor is to send a four to twenty milliamp (1V
to 5V) signal of the predetermined O2 level, to the microprocessor for it to
proper adjustment of the fuel/air ratio for the current weather and driving
conditions.

If it is fouled because of a dirty injector, bad plug,  wire, air clearer,
idle sensor etc. and it is operating outside of its design parameters, as a
result, it will illuminate the check engine enunciator.

Once the fault is detected and eliminated and the O2 sensor cleaned, it
should once again function as designed.

The problem is most analyzing will send a O2 sensor defective code IF the
tech has nto first checker the basics for engine function.

If an effected O2 sensor it returned to the manufacture under warranty they
will test if and charge back the person that did the warranty work.

In our shops many times it was to our advantage to change our the sensor
then run the vehicle to see if the fault that caused it to fail was and
intermittent fault that we had corrected or the condition that caused it
changed.    If so we cleaned the sensor and reused it in one of the
customers other fleet cars.   It was indeed bad and that was a rarity, we
sent in a warranty claim, if still in effect.

>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com>  wrote :
>
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> version of its signal or by blinking the Check Engine light in a funny
> way (my 1998 Nissan shows the duty cycle of the sensor that way).
nm5k@wt.net - 24 Dec 2008 13:03 GMT
On Dec 14, 2:37 pm, "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencu...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

> Are there digital voltage meters that don't average semi-fast
> signals?  I think for testing O2 sensors, a meter with a fast-reacting
> bar graph would be better.

I use an older Simpson digital VOM, with peak hold, avg, and it also
has a bar graph. It' s a true RMS meter.  It's the one I usually grab
for
O2 looking.. That has been a good meter over the years.
It used to be in the air force at one time.. Still has the last
military
calibration sticker on it.. About 1985 or so...

> > To measure responsiveness, one would have to use a laboratory scope
>
> Why?  It's just a low frequency signal that any regular scope, or even
> a cheapo handheld 1 MHz scope/DVM can display.

Yep, but measuring time would be a lot more accurate with the scope..
But saying that, I don't use my scope for O2 sensor checking much..
What I look for is a fast corrective response to the mixture changes,
and that's it's holding the mixture at the point it should be.. Not
too lean,
not too rich.

> Do any owner's manuals mention a replacement interval for the O2
> sensors, that is, for vehicles made since the mid-1980s?

Dunno. But I don't normally change sensors as part of upkeep.
I'll only change a sensor if I see a lot of data that seems to point
to a bad sensor. Then, I might break down and try a new one.
IE: if I was getting lower mpg, I'd do a through check on all
systems before I even thought about changing the O2 sensor.
As long as the sensors are not abused by excess oil, chemicals,
etc, they last for a long time.
Ditto for Cat converters... OEM converters last a long time if not
abused.. If there was a part that was the most often misdiagnosed
and replaced when not needed, it's probably the cat converters.
And the worst part is many aftermarket converters are pure junk
compared to OEM. I've seen brand new 3rd party converters
that were actually worse than the old OEM unit they replaced
when it comes to certain scores like NOX.
Anyway, I would not replace any emissions parts unless they
are proven to be bad with a through diagnosis of the whole
system.
BTW, when changing a sensor, always heat the engine
and exhaust pipes first before trying to take it off.
Usually makes it much easier to break loose, vs a cold one.
If it's an old one with lots of crud, I'll spray rustbuster on it
and let it sit for quite a while, and then heat the pipes and
see if it breaks loose. So far, I've never had a problem as
long as the pipe is hot.
And like they already said, always use anti seize paste
on the new one, but never get any on the sensor itself.
Many sensors will come with the past already on the threads.
If not, get some...
larry moe 'n curly - 24 Dec 2008 15:30 GMT
n...@wt.net wrote:

> On Dec 14, 2:37�pm, "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencu...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:

> > Do any owner's manuals mention a replacement interval for the O2
> > sensors, that is, for vehicles made since the mid-1980s?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Ditto for Cat converters... OEM converters last a long time if not
> abused..

..or stolen.  It finally happened to my Nissan Frontier, but at least
the thieves simply unbolted mine and didn't saw through the exhaust
pipes.

> If there was a part that was the most often misdiagnosed
> and replaced when not needed, it's probably the cat converters.
> And the worst part is many aftermarket converters are pure junk
> compared to OEM. I've seen brand new 3rd party converters
> that were actually worse than the old OEM unit they replaced
> when it comes to certain scores like NOX.

I put in a cat made by Eastern Catalytic.  Are they any good?   My
truck is OBD II but doesn't have an O2 sensor downstream from the cat,
and the emissions testing stations here don't stick a probe into the
tailpipe of OBDII vehicles.
nm5k@wt.net - 30 Dec 2008 15:10 GMT
On Dec 24, 9:30 am, "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencu...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

> I put in a cat made by Eastern Catalytic.  Are they any good?   My
> truck is OBD II but doesn't have an O2 sensor downstream from the cat,
> and the emissions testing stations here don't stick a probe into the
> tailpipe of OBDII vehicles.

If the system thinks everything is ok, and is not reading an
error code, then I would think it should pass.
They don't sniff mine either.. They just plug in and let the
puter tell the story. As long as it's run enough cycles to not
be flagged as a "recent reset", and is spitting out no codes,
should pass I would think.
As far as that brand, no idea.. I'm sure all brands are not equal.
So it might be ok, but so far I've found OEM cats to generally
be a good bit better than most aftermarket versions.
Course, they charge the $$$$ for em... :(
I'm glad my Corolla sits low to the ground.. They would have
to jack it up. I keep it in the garage too..
They try to get it there, they may have to dodge a few rounds
of .40 S&W..  :/  With the medical bills, I don't see it as a
financially viable endeavor for them.
Tomes - 31 Dec 2008 00:32 GMT
<nm5k@wt.net>..
If the system thinks everything is ok, and is not reading an
error code, then I would think it should pass.
They don't sniff mine either.. They just plug in and let the
puter tell the story. As long as it's run enough cycles to not
be flagged as a "recent reset", and is spitting out no codes,
should pass I would think.
===================================
OK, the 'recent reset' thing is my question here.

When one clears the codes, does it really have some output reading that
tells the inspection station that the codes were reset?  Or does clearing
codes just erase what is there and leave it clean?  I do know that if one
pulls the power to clear the codes one gets a 'not ready' output until it
goes through a few cycles.  Does it do the 'not ready' thing after a code
clearing via a hand held scanner?

When I clear codes the scanner just shows 'no codes'.
Tomes
nm5k@wt.net - 31 Dec 2008 02:06 GMT
> OK, the 'recent reset' thing is my question here.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> When I clear codes the scanner just shows 'no codes'.
> Tomes

I'm not sure. I think it's the "not ready" message that tips off
the station that it's been reset. I'm not sure how long it take
for the system to do all it's tests and say it's ready..
Some of the systems take longer than others.
But even if it was all reset, if you give yourself a few
days before testing it should be ok. Maybe even as quick
as a day or two if you drove enough run cycles.
Ray O - 31 Dec 2008 03:36 GMT
> <nm5k@wt.net>..
> If the system thinks everything is ok, and is not reading an
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> When I clear codes the scanner just shows 'no codes'.
> Tomes

Some trouble codes have 2-trip detection logic, which means that the
electronic control module (ECM) has to see the same problem from a sensor on
2 consecutive trips.  Conversely, if the information from the sensor is good
on 2 consecutive trips, the sensor is considered "ready."  If the ECM has
detected a problem on one of the last 2 trips, the problem is considered
"pending."  When trouble codes are reset, either through a scanner or by
pulling a fuse or battery cable, all of the ECM's memory for trouble codes
are cleared and so the data has to be re-stored for the ECM to be ready.

On order to re-store all of the data, every sensor has to send signals to
the ECM, some on 2 different trips.  Some sensors like O2 sensors need to
warm up before they work, and others need meet certain conditions, like the
torque converter locking up in overdrive or the vehicle reaching a certain
speed, etc.

The factory repair manuals list what kind of drive cycle is needed for the
ECM to be "ready."
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Tomes - 31 Dec 2008 13:18 GMT
"Ray O" ..
> "Tomes" ...
>> <nm5k@wt.net>..
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> The factory repair manuals list what kind of drive cycle is needed for the
> ECM to be "ready."

OK, let me restate my query from the perspective of trying to beat the
inspection.  I know that if you pull the fuse it will not pass because the
output an actual 'not ready' message on the inspection equipment.  Will it
say the same thing if the code was cleared from a scanner?
Tomes
Ray O - 31 Dec 2008 16:32 GMT
> "Ray O" ..
>> "Tomes" ...
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> say the same thing if the code was cleared from a scanner?
> Tomes

The computer will read "not ready" if you clear the code from an OBD II
scanner until two readiness monitor drive cycles have been driven.
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Tomes - 02 Jan 2009 20:52 GMT
>> OK, let me restate my query from the perspective of trying to beat the
>> inspection.  I know that if you pull the fuse it will not pass because
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The computer will read "not ready" if you clear the code from an OBD II
> scanner until two readiness monitor drive cycles have been driven.

Thanks, much appreciated.
Tomes
Ray O - 03 Jan 2009 06:42 GMT
>>> OK, let me restate my query from the perspective of trying to beat the
>>> inspection.  I know that if you pull the fuse it will not pass because
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Thanks, much appreciated.
> Tomes

You're welcome!
Signature


Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

nm5k@wt.net - 01 Jan 2009 04:15 GMT
> OK, let me restate my query from the perspective of trying to beat the
> inspection.  I know that if you pull the fuse it will not pass because the
> output an actual 'not ready' message on the inspection equipment.  Will it
> say the same thing if the code was cleared from a scanner?
> Tomes

I would be wondering why it wouldn't pass legally. Do you have a code
that keeps kicking in that is also turning the light on?
After it does all it's test cycles, and it does not show an engine
light, it should pass. Well, unless maybe it had a "pending" flag
it was waiting to decide on before flipping the light on..
But as long as I'd driven it long enough to make sure it had
done it's two run cycles for all the tests, and the light stayed off,
I'd think it should pass. I think it even does some EVAP tests
when the car is off and sitting... :/ You can actually hear the pump
hummm.. I heard it one day when I was in the garage and close
to the car.. Kinda weird..
Hachiroku ハチロク - 14 Dec 2008 14:33 GMT
> I have heard of problems when people use non-OEM sensors on Toyotas, but
> Bosch should be OK to use if you use the one with the correct factory
> connector.  Some of the cheaper O2 sensors do not have the correct factory
> connector and you have to splice wires.  The splices often end up being
> short-lived and you end up with problems within a year or so.

I replaced the O2 sensors in my Tercel with Bosch sensors. They are
probably the best AM sensors you can get, if you can't get Denso. Also, I
was working at a CarQuest when I did it, so I paid about $35 each for them.

And, when *I* do splices, they *STAY* spliced! ;)

I had no problems with them. Fuel economy and performance actually
increased, probably mainly for the reason they were new.
Sarah Houston - 14 Dec 2008 23:18 GMT
=?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= <Trueno@e86.GTS>
wrote :

>> I have heard of problems when people use non-OEM sensors on Toyotas,
>> but Bosch should be OK to use if you use the one with the correct
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I had no problems with them. Fuel economy and performance actually
> increased, probably mainly for the reason they were new.

Well someone here awhile back, was saying that they get clogged after
awhile, so the resistance wouldn't matter that much then, eh?

I wonder what additives like BG44k do to them?

Seems like I was briefly getting better MPG when the tank had that in
it.
ransley - 14 Dec 2008 09:48 GMT
> ( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE )
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Is there any real advantage to using a Toyota part on this?
> ( outside of to Toyota, because it costs more? )

Have a mechanic put it on a scope it will tell you what needs
replacing, if milage is bad and a tunup is due , do one completely.
Jeff Strickland - 14 Dec 2008 17:23 GMT
>( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE )
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Is there any real advantage to using a Toyota part on this?
> ( outside of to Toyota, because it costs more? )

My guess is that Bosch is interested in selling parts. I would not hesitate
to install a Bosch O2 Sensor when the engine calls for one (by causing the
Check light to come on). I do not see a need to replace one simply because
time or miles have passed.
NickySantoro - 16 Dec 2008 15:26 GMT
>( 93 Corolla 1.8L 7AFE )
>
>I had no idea about this but Bosch suggests replacing the oxygen sensor
>with every tuneup?

They manufacture and sell O2 sensors, not that that would give them
any specific agenda.
 
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