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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / December 2008{OT} Seattle refuses to use salt; roads "snow packed" by design
Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets and just leaving them snow packed. Chicago voters would send them packing the first available election. Keep an eye out for these idiots in your own city. They'll weasel themselves into important decision making positions and you too will be stuck in the snow. <http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008551284_snowcleanup23 m.html> "By ruling out salt and some of the chemicals routinely used by snowbound cities, Seattle has embraced a less-effective strategy for clearing roads, namely sand sprinkled on top of snowpack along major arterials, and a chemical de-icer that is effective when temperatures are below 32 degrees. Seattle also equips its plows with rubber-edged blades. That minimizes the damage to roads and manhole covers, but it doesn't scrape off the ice, Wiggins said. That leaves many drivers, including Seattle police, pretty much on their own until nature does to the snow what the sand can't: melt it. The city's patrol cars are rear-wheel drive. And even with tire chains, officers are avoiding hills and responding on foot, according to a West Precinct officer."  Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra > Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have > their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets > and just leaving them snow packed. Chicago voters would send them > packing the first available election. Keep an eye out for these idiots > in your own city. They'll weasel themselves into important decision > making positions and you too will be stuck in the snow. How do northern European countries manage to get by without salting their roads in the winter? I've met people from Sweden and Germany who think our practice of pouring salt everywhere is crazy. On Dec 24, 4:32 am, beersp...@whoever.com wrote: > > Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have > > their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > their roads in the winter? I've met people from Sweden and Germany > who think our practice of pouring salt everywhere is crazy. Europe does NOT exist. There is no such place. Everything we hear about "Europe" is fabricated out of whole cloth. >> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have >> their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > their roads in the winter? I've met people from Sweden and Germany > who think our practice of pouring salt everywhere is crazy. They know how to drive in winter. That's how they get along with no salt, or very little. Same as here (upstate NY). Highways here are salted, but on local roads, it's mostly just the intersections. The main problem in Seattle (according to one native) is that they lose their minds when it snows. Same in Arkansas & Tennessee, as well as Long Island. >>> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have >>> their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > or very little. Same as here (upstate NY). Highways here are salted, but > on local roads, it's mostly just the intersections. You still in Ossining, eh? > The main problem in Seattle (according to one native) is that they lose > their minds when it snows. Same in Arkansas & Tennessee, as well as Long > Island. >>>> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers >>>> have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > You still in Ossining, eh? Rochester. > >>>> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers > >>>> have [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Rochester. Jack Benny's butler. Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra In article <10eddec0-9401-4535-850f-a1065f25fd14@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have > > their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > their roads in the winter? I've met people from Sweden and Germany > who think our practice of pouring salt everywhere is crazy. Most of those cities are near the sea, milder winters mean less lasting snow on the roads or it melts as it falls. Where I live when it snows it lasts till spring. it's not a matter of how to drive on slippery roads it's a matter of life and death. Let them come up here and live for a winter, then tell me about not applying chemicals on the roads. Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra > Most of those cities are near the sea, milder winters mean less lasting > snow on the roads or it melts as it falls. Where I live when it snows > it lasts till spring. it's not a matter of how to drive on slippery > roads it's a matter of life and death. Let them come up here and live > for a winter, then tell me about not applying chemicals on the roads. Denver doesn't use salt. Cars last forever (no rust). They get a lot of sunshine, which melts the snow, except for some occasional big snowstorms. But they do use sand in Denver and if you drive on the highways much in winter your windshield (and sometimes hood) gets pitted. Expect to replace your windshield in Denver every 3-4 years especially if the pits grow into cracks. > > Most of those cities are near the sea, milder winters mean less lasting > > snow on the roads or it melts as it falls. Where I live when it snows [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > your windshield in Denver every 3-4 years especially if the pits grow into > cracks. Do you get black ice out there? Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra > Do you get black ice out there? Sometimes, but not as often as other places I have lived. The biggest problem is when the there is a heavy snow and it melts during the day, and then re-freezes at night. > > Do you get black ice out there? > > Sometimes, but not as often as other places I have lived. The biggest > problem is when the there is a heavy snow and it melts during the day, and > then re-freezes at night. We see black ice on approaches to intersections where car exhaust freezes on the roads. It is glasslike and extremely slippery. It seems like it forms more when the temps are well below zero, but bridges can have it at much warmer temps, even in the late fall. Very bad for walking and driving. Slippery as hell. A little salt or equiv. chemical mixed with sand usually takes care of it, unless the temps are well below zero. Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra > In article > <10eddec0-9401-4535-850f-a1065f25f...@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > "It's deja vu all over again" > Yogi Berra I spent a couple of years in Germany about 27 years ago. I don't remember a lot of trips to the beach. hmm nope... I believe Sssshhermany is FTMP landlocked.. In article <cfd55e45-cbf4-4957-bd35-ad71dfa8e4f7@n10g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <10eddec0-9401-4535-850f-a1065f25f...@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > remember a lot of trips to the beach. hmm nope... I believe > Sssshhermany is FTMP landlocked.. They have a short winter. In a few days it will be all melted. Quite different in the center of North America where winter lasts well into March and April. God bless Seattle and all her inhabitants and a merry Christmas and happy New Year. Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra On Dec 24, 9:14 am, dbu' <nos...@nobama.com> wrote: > In article > <10eddec0-9401-4535-850f-a1065f25f...@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > "It's deja vu all over again" > Yogi Berra I spent a couple of years in Germany about 27 years ago. I don't remember a lot of trips to the beach. hmm nope... I believe Sssshhermany is FTMP landlocked.. ============= ....except for the part that's not landlocked. >> In article >> <10eddec0-9401-4535-850f-a1065f25f...@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > remember a lot of trips to the beach. hmm nope... I believe > Sssshhermany is FTMP landlocked.. Europe uses salt. During the winter of 02/03, Sweden spread 260,000 metric tons of salt on state roads alone. <http://www.sgu.se/sgu/eng/produkter-tjanster/nyheter/nyheter-2005/vagsalt-indika torer_e.html> Germany concentrates on spraying of brine solution rather than the spreading of rock salt, although main roads are still spread with a sand/rock salt mix. <http://www.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/31012003/connections/connections1.swf> Salt in some form is still far and away the most widely used road anti-icing agent worldwide (and by far the cheapest). I can say as a lifetime resident of the snow-ridden North American northeast that there is a world of difference in traction once the salt trucks have been by. We pray for the salt trucks, believe me. And just how often does Seattle actually have snow anyway? They get an average of just NINE INCHES of snow each year. Compare that to Chicago: 35" Boston: 41" New York City: 29" Detroit: 41" Milwaukee: 47" Toronto: 52" Buffalo: 93" Valdez, AK: 326" (Yup! That's TWENTY-SEVEN FEET!) More fun facts here: <http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/2003-10-01-snowiest-cities_x.htm> SignatureTegger > And just how often does Seattle actually have snow anyway? They get > an average of just NINE INCHES of snow each year. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Buffalo: 93" > Valdez, AK: 326" (Yup! That's TWENTY-SEVEN FEET!) Denver gets 60" but zero salt. > > And just how often does Seattle actually have snow anyway? They get > > an average of just NINE INCHES of snow each year. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Denver gets 60" but zero salt. In the mountains maybe a little more. Denver proper gets about 50 inches. I've been to the mile high city. I wish we had winters as mild as Denver, even though we get a little less snow it stays longer and with much colder temperatures over a longer period of time. I would love to receive 10 inches of snow in a day and a half only to wake up the next day to 40 degrees. Instead we wake up to zero or below after a storm and with 20 mph winds from the NW, it lingers for sometimes days. Denver is at the approximate same latitude as Kansas City Mo., but altitude is a little higher. Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra > In the mountains maybe a little more. Denver proper gets about 50 > inches. I've been to the mile high city. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Denver is at the approximate same latitude as Kansas City Mo., but > altitude is a little higher. I was using the stats from the link provided which said Denver gets about 60" of snow per year average over the last 61 years. It is probably 3-4 times that much in the mountain resorts (maybe more). http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/snowfall.html Altitude of Denver is a lot higher than KC, not a little higher. Denver relies on the sun to melt the snow, especially when at least some blacktop is visible. At 5280 feet, there is a lot less humidity and the sun is much more intense than most other cities. Even when it is still freezing after a snow storm, the air is so dry in Denver, that often the snow evaporates directly into a gaseous state without intermediate melting (this is known as sublimation). "Mark A" <someone@someone.com> wrote in news:wPU5l.14561$UI2.7446 @bignews6.bellsouth.net: >> And just how often does Seattle actually have snow anyway? They get >> an average of just NINE INCHES of snow each year. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Denver gets 60" but zero salt. Denver does not have the sort of circumstances where road salt works well. Another link I found: <http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/sr/sr235/017-030.pdf> Salt is ideally suited to the heavily-traveled roads of the Great Lakes region, where temperatures rarely get near 5F. Now I understand why little-used rural roads in my area are sanded only, while main routes are heavily salted. In any case, Seattle can decide to do what they're doing because they get next to no snow anyway, so it's more a symbolic act than anything else. SignatureTegger > Denver does not have the sort of circumstances where road salt works well. I would disagree with that. Occasionally Denver has very poor conditions that could benefit from salt, but they have just decided that the effects of salt on the cars and the roads is just too high. Environmental concerns are not a major factor in Denver's decision not to use salt (but would be in the mountains) since Denver is semi-arid and has very few wetlands (except for reservoirs). >> Denver does not have the sort of circumstances where road salt works >> well. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in the mountains) since Denver is semi-arid and has very few wetlands > (except for reservoirs). How other states are experimenting: http://www.denverpost.com/ci_11283833 >> Denver does not have the sort of circumstances where road salt works >> well. > > I would disagree with that. Occasionally Denver has very poor > conditions that could benefit from salt, but they have just decided > that the effects of salt on the cars and the roads is just too high. Got a cite for that? > Environmental concerns are not a major factor in Denver's decision not > to use salt Colorado has NEVER used salt. <http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/sr/sr235/017-030.pdf> See page 22. SignatureTegger > Got a cite for that? Yes, me. I have lived in Denver two different times for a total of 14 years. There have been some humongous snowstorms, but fortunately not very many. The relative infrequency of big snowstorms is actually a reason in favor of using salt, because Denver does not have a lot of snow removal equipment when there is a big snowstorm. Denver relies on the sun to melt the snow (not warm weather as others claimed). The intense sun will melt (or evaporate) the snow even when the temps are below freezing (assuming there is at least some small area of blacktop visible after road-scrapping). It is true that Denver gets most of its snowfall in the spring, when the weather is warmer, but during the winter months the temps are pretty cold after a snowstorm. > Colorado has NEVER used salt. > <http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/sr/sr235/017-030.pdf> > See page 22. I never said that Colorado used salt. Although I don't that link actually says that. >> Got a cite for that? > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I never said that Colorado used salt. Although I don't that link > actually says that. No, it doesn't. But it does say that Colorado hasn't used salt since at least the late-'80s, and implies that non-use of salt dates to a much earlier time. Remember, salt is a deicer, not a snow remover. This means it works best for thin layers of ice on heavily-traveled roads. If Colorado tends to have little ice, but much deep and fresh snow, salt would do no good. Since salt has a limited effective application environment, it's reasonable to assume Colorado's situation precluded the use of salt as a deicing agent independently of any other consideration. I wish I could find more definitive online information on this other than the PDF referenced above, but it doesn't seem to be available. SignatureTegger > No, it doesn't. But it does say that Colorado hasn't used salt since at > least the late-'80s, and implies that non-use of salt dates to a much > earlier time. Having lived in Denver at various times from 1982 onward, I can tell you for a fact that it has not used salt since at least1982, and probably since a lot longer before that, and maybe never. But that link you provided doesn't really say that. But there is no reason to imply anything, since I am telling you that Denver does not use salt. > Remember, salt is a deicer, not a snow remover. This means it works best > for thin layers of ice on heavily-traveled roads. If Colorado tends to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > definitive online information on this other than the PDF referenced above, > but it doesn't seem to be available. I have lived through some terrible snowstorms and freeze thaw ice problems in Denver over the 14 years I have lived there, and the reason that Denver does not use salt has nothing to do with the reasons you stated. Because big snowstorms are not frequent in Denver, and because of the intense sunlight and low humidity, Denver has relatively little snow removal equipment when a big storm does hit. That is all the more reason to use salt, since it is a lot cheaper to occasionally use salt than to have heavy snowplowing equipment sitting around idle. Even when Denver occasionally gets the conditions you describe above, it does not use salt. The reason why Denver does not use salt is as already stated. It has a very damaging effect on cars, damaging to the roads (freeze/thaw causes pot holes), and to some degree the environment (especially in the mountain areas outside of Denver). People in Denver are willing to put up with a few very bad snow days each year rather than deal with rusty cars and bad roads (which also damage cars). The issue is discussed and debated whenever a really big storm hits Denver. However, Denver does use sand (with some gravel) and they probably have one the highest number of windshield repair places per capita in the US (but I am just guessing). <snipped> > I can say as a lifetime resident of the snow-ridden North American > northeast that there is a world of difference in traction once the > salt trucks have been by. Of course there is! - after a short time, down to just wet pavement. ;-P > We pray for the salt trucks, believe me. Or the sanders, IME; plenty of traction on sanded (on snowy, but plowed) roads. Most of all, we pray for the plows to make an appearance!! A relatively *timely* appearance. > And just how often does Seattle actually have snow anyway? They get > an average of just NINE INCHES of snow each year. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Buffalo: 93" > Valdez, AK: 326" (Yup! That's TWENTY-SEVEN FEET!) Then there're places like Redfield & Montague on the Tug Hill: "The highest recorded yearly snowfall for that area was 346.1 inches in 1976-1977." http://www.tughill.org/region.html Akin to your info above (& sort of your link below): http://www.city-data.com/top2/c464.html Cathy > More fun facts here: > <http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/2003-10-01-snowiest-cities_x.htm> > I spent a couple of years in Germany about 27 years ago. I don't > remember a lot of trips to the beach. hmm nope... I believe > Sssshhermany is FTMP landlocked.. What does "for the most part" mean? Either it is landlocked or it's not (it's not). > In article > <10eddec0-9401-4535-850f-a1065f25fd14@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > for a winter, then tell me about not applying chemicals on the roads. > -- What seas border the cold cities of Geneva, Switzerland and Berlin, Germany? >> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have >> their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > their roads in the winter? I've met people from Sweden and Germany > who think our practice of pouring salt everywhere is crazy. LIEbrawls=DEMONrats=equal idiots who won't use salt We have neighbours who refuse to use salt on their icy sidewalks. Mark my words, if I slip on an icy sidewalk, there will be one big f.cking law suit against the adjacent property owner who has the LEGAL responsibility, at least here in Alberta, to keep adjacent public sidewalks cleared DOWN TO THE f.cking CONCRETE. > <beersp...@whoever.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > responsibility, at least here in Alberta, to keep adjacent public sidewalks > cleared DOWN TO THE f.cking CONCRETE. I forgot you are a Canadian. I bet you refuse your Canadian health care. >> <beersp...@whoever.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > I forgot you are a Canadian. I bet you refuse your Canadian health > care. What does THAT have to do with salt? > <edspyhil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > What does THAT have to do with salt? You are an idiot. In article <cc2a46b9-1a13-4a6a-9507-65dd40b9906e@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, > > <edspyhil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > You are an idiot. You are a traitor and not an American. You are a scumbag from the middle east. Maybe even a possible terrorist. Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra > In article > <cc2a46b9-1a13-4a6a-9507-65dd40b99...@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > "It's deja vu all over again" > Yogi Berra You are a loon. In article <7ead5326-ac81-4bf3-ad43-00cc315e018d@w35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <cc2a46b9-1a13-4a6a-9507-65dd40b99...@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > You are a loon. You are a threat to America. Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra > In article > <7ead5326-ac81-4bf3-ad43-00cc315e0...@w35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > "It's deja vu all over again" > Yogi Berra You keep lowering the national IQ average. > In article > <cc2a46b9-1a13-4a6a-9507-65dd40b9906e@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > You are a traitor and not an American. You are a scumbag from the > middle east. Maybe even a possible terrorist. I see you're really into the Christmas spirit... ;-) Cathy > > In article > > <cc2a46b9-1a13-4a6a-9507-65dd40b9906e@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Cathy They don't celebrate Christmas :) Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra >> > In article >> > <cc2a46b9-1a13-4a6a-9507-65dd40b9906e@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > They don't celebrate Christmas :) *You*, not them. (But you knew that, right?) Your reply simply reinforces my comment. Nope, Christmas spirit not exactly emanating from you. Cathy > "It's deja vu all over again" > Yogi Berra > >> > In article > >> > <cc2a46b9-1a13-4a6a-9507-65dd40b9906e@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Cathy Need I repeat again, THEY don't celebrate Christmas. You may be Jewish, fine, but whom I refer to don't, or do not celebrate Christmas, at least NOT the same Christmas as I do. So, not quite politically correct in your view, sorry, but that's the way it is. Now, go suck a lemon and try to be happy. Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra >> >> > In article >> >> > <cc2a46b9-1a13-4a6a-9507-65dd40b9906e@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >> Cathy > Need I repeat again, THEY don't celebrate Christmas. So what if they didn't/don't? See below, very last comment... You may be > Jewish, fine, but whom I refer to don't, or do not celebrate Christmas, > at least NOT the same Christmas as I do. Huh?? No, I'm not Jewish - in case that was "you" in the singular (although lots of people assume we are Jewish; no prob - just kinda amusing). But more to the point: this sentence just doesn't make sense. So, not quite politically > correct in your view, sorry, but that's the way it is. ?? This doesn't make sense, either. Now, go suck a > lemon and try to be happy. You're the one insulting others big-time on Christmas Eve, yet you want me to be happy? Doing fine here, thanks. (Although trying to converse with you is getting to be a downer & I may well ignore any more of your posts.) I have everything done now for Christmas & had some time for ngs; mistake in this case. Overall: Do you *really* not get it?? Peace on earth, goodwill toward others... you know?? Doesn't matter what religion - if any - the other person is, for you to express the Christmas spirit toward them. This is the sort of thing that annoys me about some people who profess to be Christian: their attitude is anything but. And tonight, of all times. Sigh.... Cathy >>> >> > In article >>> >> > <cc2a46b9-1a13-4a6a-9507-65dd40b9906e@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] > > Cathy >>>> >> > In article >>>> >> > <cc2a46b9-1a13-4a6a-9507-65dd40b9906e@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] >> >> Cathy I don't profess to be anything, other than an agnostic. At least *I* respect those who genuinely appear to be TRYING to apply their spiritual beliefs into their everyday lives. I don't brand them as raving fundamentalists. Fundamentalist-- LIEbrawl definition--- ANYONE with any discernible moral code. > In article <I6ydnWfeQ4ZnRc_UnZ2dnUVZ_qzin...@giganews.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > "It's deja vu all over again" > Yogi Berra Oops, we are not the right christians. >> In article <I6ydnWfeQ4ZnRc_UnZ2dnUVZ_qzin...@giganews.com>, >> [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > > Oops, we are not the right christians. You are just NOT right. Period. >> In article >> <cc2a46b9-1a13-4a6a-9507-65dd40b9906e@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Cathy Yeah, hee hee. It brings out the best in us. TONGUE IN CHEEK, Cathy, tongue in cheek. > <beersp...@whoever.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > responsibility, at least here in Alberta, to keep adjacent public sidewalks > cleared DOWN TO THE f.cking CONCRETE. Glad I'm not your neighbor. Canadians suck anyway. WTF is with your driving. You all drive like your head's up your a.s. >> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have >> their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > their roads in the winter? I've met people from Sweden and Germany > who think our practice of pouring salt everywhere is crazy. Europe uses salt. During the winter of 02/03, Sweden spread 260,000 metric tons of salt on state roads alone. <http://www.sgu.se/sgu/eng/produkter-tjanster/nyheter/nyheter-2005/vagsalt-indika torer_e.html> Germany concentrates on spraying of brine solution rather than the spreading of rock salt, although main roads are still spread with a sand/rock salt mix. <http://www.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/31012003/connections/connections1.swf> Salt in some form is still far and away the most widely used road anti-icing agent worldwide (and by far the cheapest). I can say as a lifetime resident of the snow-ridden North American northeast that there is a world of difference in traction once the salt trucks have been by. We pray for the salt trucks, believe me. And just how often does Seattle actually have snow anyway? They get an average of just NINE INCHES of snow each year. Compare that to Chicago: 35" Boston: 41" New York City: 29" Detroit: 41" Milwaukee: 47" Toronto: 52" Buffalo: 93" Valdez, AK: 326" (Yup! That's TWENTY-SEVEN FEET! Bet they use salt.) More fun facts here: <http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/2003-10-01-snowiest-cities_x.htm> SignatureTegger > Valdez, AK: 326" (Yup! That's TWENTY-SEVEN FEET! Bet they use salt.) They may not, at least during most of the winter. They just drive on the hardpack all winter long. They might use salt in the late spring, I don't know. >> Valdez, AK: 326" (Yup! That's TWENTY-SEVEN FEET! Bet they use salt.) > > They may not, at least during most of the winter. They just drive on > the hardpack all winter long. They might use salt in the late spring, > I don't know. Another cool link I found: <http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/sr/sr235/017-030.pdf> It seems salt works best on much-travelled roads, and only works at all above about 5 degrees F. For both these reasons Alaska is a lesser user of road salt, relying mostly on sand and plowing. Salt is ideally suited to the heavily-traveled roads of the Great Lakes region, where temperatures rarely get near 5F. Now I understand why little-used rural roads in my area are sanded only, while main routes are heavily salted. In any case, Seattle can decide to do what they're doing because they get next to no snow anyway, so it's more a symbolic act than anything else. SignatureTegger Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in news:Xns9B7E9B9A55D17tegger@ 208.90.168.18: >>> Valdez, AK: 326" (Yup! That's TWENTY-SEVEN FEET! Bet they use salt.) >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Another cool link I found: > <http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/sr/sr235/017-030.pdf> An interesting quote from page 28 of the link I give above: "Presumably, deicing also improves highway safety, although no studies have demonstrated this effect unequivocally because of the many interrelated factors found in accident statistics (TRB 1974, 8)." SignatureTegger > Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have > their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > officers are avoiding hills and responding on foot, according to a West > Precinct officer." You failed to mention the environmental impact on Puget sound and the surrounding environment. However, the article didn't. Jeff > -- > > "It's deja vu all over again" > Yogi Berra > > Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have > > their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Jeff Deeb doesn't believe any of that liberal claptrap about the environment. On Dec 24, 11:22 am, Jeff <jeff....@gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 24, 12:33 am, dbu' <nos...@nobama.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Jeff Deeb doesn't believe any of that liberal claptrap about the environment. ============= He needs to rent some reading comprehension skills. >> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have >> their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > However, the article didn't. Earth to f.cking idiot LIEbrawls: Puget sound is ALREADY salt water. A little more salt from runoff means DICK ALL. > Jeff > >> -- >> >> "It's deja vu all over again" >> Yogi Berra >>> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have >>> their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > little > more salt from runoff means DICK ALL. Wrong. > >> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have > >> their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > little > more salt from runoff means DICK ALL. Yet, it also gets into the rivers that lead to Puget Sound. And Puget Sound is an estuary, which is an area where salt water and fresh water mix. Having more salt in the water will affect the life around area. I see why you have to use foul language. Without that language and name-calling, you have no argument. Truth is, with those things, you still don't have an argument. Jeff > > Jeff > > >> -- > > >> "It's deja vu all over again" > >> Yogi Berra In article <fd5a97b3-ae82-4e93-9ecb-b1312a433057@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, > > >> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have > > >> their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > >> "It's deja vu all over again" > > >> Yogi Berra Jeffy, if Seattle were to implement saving technology there wouldn't be any problem of the road salt being drained into the estuaries. Ponding of road debris drain away, which includes vehicle oil, fuel and other nasties, including lawn treatments, will prevent that happening. It has already been implemented in many places. So why has Seattle not been more aggressive in that respect? Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra >> >> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers >> >> have [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > name-calling, you have no argument. Truth is, with those things, you > still don't have an argument. Pack it, Jeff, as you pack your BF's fudge! > Jeff > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> "It's deja vu all over again" >> >> Yogi Berra >>> >> Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers >>> >> have [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Pack it, Jeff, as you pack your BF's fudge! I see Canada's got a 99% literacy rate. Your bitterness obviously stems from being a member of the 1%. But you don't understand we can't but SALT in an estuary, that's full of salt water every time the tide come in LOL > Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have > their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > officers are avoiding hills and responding on foot, according to a West > Precinct officer." > But you don't understand we can't but SALT in an estuary, that's full of > salt water every time the tide come in LOL That's what struck me as rather strange about Seattle and their war on salt, LOL. These environuts are a laugh and a half. > > Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have > > their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > officers are avoiding hills and responding on foot, according to a West > > Precinct officer." Signature"It's deja vu all over again" Yogi Berra >> But you don't understand we can't but SALT in an estuary, that's full of >> salt water every time the tide come in LOL > > That's what struck me as rather strange about Seattle and their war on > salt, LOL. These environuts are a laugh and a half. Some estuaries have a lower salinity level than the open sea. Certain types of creatures & plants thrive in these estuaries, and we have no business f.cking around with their water. If you'd ever read an actual book, you would be aware of this. But, you disdain education and knowledge. >>> But you don't understand we can't but SALT in an estuary, that's full of >>> salt water every time the tide come in LOL [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > f.cking around with their water. If you'd ever read an actual book, you > would be aware of this. But, you disdain education and knowledge. If you're a Republican, that usually means that education and knowledge are pretty far down on your list of important things to acquire during your lifetime. >> But you don't understand we can't but SALT in an estuary, that's full of >> salt water every time the tide come in LOL > > That's what struck me as rather strange about Seattle and their war on > salt, LOL. These environuts are a laugh and a half. So, if the salt concentration becomes higher than what it would naturally be, that would suit the inhabitants of the environment under discussion just fine? Cathy >> > Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers >> > have [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> > officers are avoiding hills and responding on foot, according to a West >> > Precinct officer." >>> But you don't understand we can't but SALT in an estuary, that's full of >>> salt water every time the tide come in LOL [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Cathy He would need to read in order to answer your question. Instead, he will say something stupid, or say something insulting to scientists, all of whom are wrong all the time because they finished college. >>> But you don't understand we can't but SALT in an estuary, that's full of >>> salt water every time the tide come in LOL [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Cathy You f.cking environuts fail to realize the tremendous dilution abilities of the tides. The minuscule amount of salt ending up in the bay, sound, strait, whatever would be quickly diluted by the influence of the tides. >>> > Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers >>> > have [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>> > West >>> > Precinct officer." >>>> But you don't understand we can't but SALT in an estuary, that's full >>>> of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > of salt ending up in the bay, sound, strait, whatever would be quickly > diluted by the influence of the tides. You f.cking high school dropouts fail to realize that it doesn't take much of a change in salinity to f.ck up an estuary. You're another one who does not read. You live through television just like dbu. > You f.cking high school dropouts fail to realize that it doesn't take much > of a change in salinity to f.ck up an estuary. You're another one who does > not read. You live through television just like dbu. In California and Nevada, they stopped using salt on the roads around Lake Tahoe because the change in salinity was affecting the lake. I don't think California uses salt anywhere, but I'm not sure about this. >> But you don't understand we can't but SALT in an estuary, that's full of >> salt water every time the tide come in LOL > > That's what struck me as rather strange about Seattle and their war on > salt, LOL. These environuts are a laugh and a half. Not really, because people can get killed because of this. Of course, they don't care, because the environment's clean... >> > Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have >> > their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> > officers are avoiding hills and responding on foot, according to a West >> > Precinct officer." > Environuts rule in seattle. A look into the future if these jokers have > their way. Can you imagine Chicago not using chemicals on their streets [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > arterials, and a chemical de-icer that is effective when temperatures > are below 32 degrees. Lots of places here use sand (immediately after plowing) instead of salt. Works fine - in any temp, although there's then the necessity of a curbside clean-up come spring. Other municipalities use salt instead of sand, because cities don't always want sand running into their storm sewers & clogging them. > Seattle also equips its plows with rubber-edged blades. That minimizes > the damage to roads and manhole covers, but it doesn't scrape off the > ice, Wiggins said. I wish our city used rubber-edge plows - wouldn't tear the curbs to pieces! And would prob. be less noisy in the middle of the night, to boot. Besides, how many plows actually plow off *ice*? If there's ice under the snow, it's still there after the plows have done their bit, IME. Cathy > That leaves many drivers, including Seattle police, pretty much on their > own until nature does to the snow what the sand can't: melt it. > The city's patrol cars are rear-wheel drive. And even with tire chains, > officers are avoiding hills and responding on foot, according to a West > Precinct officer." |
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