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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / May 2005Temporary tape on car body, was: 97 Tercel cabin/pollen filter?
Original thread: http://tinyurl.com/82r3x To confirm that some noxious fumes are entering the passenger cabin from the engine compartment through the ventilation intake grills, I was planning to tape up the gap between the hood and the rest of the car (where the wipers are). If the hood gasket is no good at preventing gases from reaching the intake vents from the engine compartment, then the tape should help block this pathway. Of course, I will avoid taping up the intake vents themselves, since I want fresh air from the outside. I am concerned that when I peel back the tape, it will pull away body paint. My initial plan was to use packing tape. Is there a more advisable (less risky) tape to use for this purpose? I was thinking also of makeing my packing tape less ticky by taping onto some clothing before reusing the tape on the car. But this might be too much; some less secure tape might fly off on the highway. Thanks for any suggestions on this. Even though the air pathway through the hood gasket is obstructed by tape sealant, there are smaller pathways through the firewall. Would it be right to assume that such leaks would be neglegible compared to the fresh air coming from the air intake vents? Thanks, T.O. > Original thread: http://tinyurl.com/82r3x > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > advisable (less risky) tape to use for this purpose? I was thinking > also of makeing my packing tape less ticky by taping onto some clothing ...should read "less Sticky", not "less ticky" > before reusing the tape on the car. But this might be too much; some > less secure tape might fly off on the highway. Thanks for any suggestions [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > be right to assume that such leaks would be neglegible compared to the > fresh air coming from the air intake vents? The point of this 2nd question was to avoid a misconclusion. For example, if the fumes penetrating the firewall is significant, then a proper seal at the intake vents wouldn't block the fumes. I might think that it was adequately blocked, and since I would still detect the fumes, it would be easy to mistakenly conclude that the fumes were originating from some place other than the engine compartment. > Original thread: http://tinyurl.com/82r3x > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > less secure tape might fly off on the highway. Thanks for any suggestions > on this. Use masking tape - body shops use it all the time without problems. You can remove any tape residue with Goof-Off, bug & tar remover, or rubbing alcohol. > Even though the air pathway through the hood gasket is obstructed by > tape sealant, there are smaller pathways through the firewall. Would it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > T.O. Leaks through the firewall should be negligible because the openings should all have grommets to prevent moisture from entering.  SignatureRay O correct the return address punctuation to reply >"Tercel Owner" <Toyota@Tercel.com> wrote in message >> I am concerned that when I peel back the tape, it will pull away [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Leaks through the firewall should be negligible because the openings >should all have grommets to prevent moisture from entering. Thanks again, Ray. T.O. >>"Tercel Owner" <Toyota@Tercel.com> wrote in message >>> I am concerned that when I peel back the tape, it will pull away [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > T.O. You're welcome! SignatureRay O correct the return address punctuation to reply > Use masking tape - body shops use it all the time without > problems. You can remove any tape residue with Goof-Off, bug & > tar remover, or rubbing alcohol. AOL -- Ray saved me the trouble of saying it. But I would add: if the car body shop stuff is like that used by draughtsmen and artists, try not to leave it in place too long. As you will be wanting to take the car out on the road, in (bright? hot?) sun, be wary of heat making the adhesive extra tacky. Or have those cleansing potions handy. FWIW. SignatureAndrew Stephenson >> Use masking tape - body shops use it all the time without problems. >> You can remove any tape residue with Goof-Off, bug & tar remover, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >making the adhesive extra tacky. Or have those cleansing potions >handy. FWIW. Thanks. The hardware store had some less tacky tape for painting, so I weighed the benefits against those of regular masking tape. The latter being a more robust seal, especially in the turbulent wind on the highway. Since the ventilation/respiratory problem is quite severe, I opted for the regular (tackier) masking tape for a surer test. It turns out that was a good idea. This is because it isn't so easy to tape off the gap between the edge of the hood and the rest of the car. When the hood is closed, the edge of the hood rests /over/ the grooved section that leads up to the intake vents. "Grooved" is not so much the description as "ridged". Deep-ish rideges, oriented parallel to car's center-line, occuring half centimeter spacing across the entire left-right width of the intake grill (i.e. across the width of the windshield). Not a very tape-friendly surface for purposes of sealing. To get around the problem of tape-unfriendliness, I opened the hood and looked at where the hood gasket contacts the hood. There is a bit of a ridge on the underside of the hood that mirrors the gasket, presumably the contact surface with the gasket. So the question I'm trying to test is whether that seal is being maintained during driving (or at all e.g. when car is still). I can imagine that during the force wind from highway driving, air from under the hood can force itself between the ridge & the gasket, and make its way to the intake vents. To hopefully prevent this, I put abutted rolls of masking tape along hood gasket. Seems to help. I hesitate to say once again that I solved the problem because it also felt that way when I bypassed the coolant around the heater core. I think what happens is that I am healthy when the change is first made and being tested, and the effects of exposure to the fumes is mild. With prolonged exposure, the effects get more severe, and it takes less exposure to provoke lengthy spells of violent coughing. Then I say "enough", drive a few days with fan off, set to recirculate, and windows down, and get healthy again. The same thing probably happens when I hit upon the next idea to test. I hope this is the real cause this time. I can try changing the hood gasket, though everyone who has looked at it says its good. If that doesn't solve it, I have to resort to creative thinking on what else to do. Having masking take rolls along the hood gasket is not a very good long-term solution. Rain will do away with it, as will constant opening/closing the hood (which I have to do the check oil, since it is still being lost at nonneglegible rates). > [discussion of fumes leaking into driver's area] Just thinking laterally here: if that seal around the hood (uh, it feels weird saying that, as we say "bonnet" -- never mind) is in a state to seem suspect, I take it the car is not brand-new? If that's so, can you rule out the possibility of fumes coming in through combinations of breaks in the exhaust system and rusted- through holes in the floor (&c)? SignatureAndrew Stephenson >>> Use masking tape - body shops use it all the time without problems. >>> You can remove any tape residue with Goof-Off, bug & tar remover, [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > opening/closing the hood (which I have to do the check oil, since it > is still being lost at nonneglegible rates). I must say, you are the most diligent owner I've come across in a long time! With the hood closed, check to make sure that the surface of the hood is even - flush with the surface of the adjoining fender both at the front of the fenders by the grille and at the back near the windshield. If not, the hood will need some adjustment. Start by turning the hood stops at the front of the car up or down as necessary. If the gasket appears to be in good shape - bulging along its length evenly and not torn or cracked, then go to a place sells adhesive-backed foam tape, like what you would use to winterize a home window or along the bottom of a pickup truck cap. Clean the surface where the hood gasket contacts, wipe with rubbing alcohol, and place the foam tape so that the hood gasket contacts the foam tape when the hood is closed. The foam will not be visible when the hood is closed and won't look as Rube Goldberged as masking or duct tape. SignatureRay O correct the return address punctuation to reply >I must say, you are the most diligent owner I've come across in a long time! Hey Ray....I have been very impressed with this person's persistence. I wonder if you still have any 'contacts' in the Toyota organization? Perhaps you could pull a few strings to get this person's problem fixed? Seems to me this would be an excellent way for Toyota Corporate to make some points! -- Scott in Florida >>I must say, you are the most diligent owner I've come across in a long >>time! [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -- > Scott in Florida The people I'd feel comfortable asking a favor of are dealers in MA, NH, ME; and a former co-worker who is now in Seymour, IN. If the OP is around Chicago, I'll take a look at the car. SignatureRay O correct the return address punctuation to reply >>>I must say, you are the most diligent owner I've come across in a long >>>time! [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >and a former co-worker who is now in Seymour, IN. If the OP is around >Chicago, I'll take a look at the car. I'd like to see this person helped. -- Scott in Florida >>>>I must say, you are the most diligent owner I've come across in a long >>>>time! [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > -- > Scott in Florida I'm a sucker for people with car trouble, which is why I end up working on Fords, Pontiacs, Hondas, Mitsubishis, and everything else under the sun. My problem is that I end up accumulating tools for vehicles I don't even own. If the OP is near the Midwest, let me know! SignatureRay O correct the return address punctuation to reply >>>>I must say, you are the most diligent owner I've come across in a long >>>>time! [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > -- > Scott in Florida I'll bet his car dealer hopes someone helps him out too ('out' being the operative word here of course) -- -Gord. Keep in mind that I'm an expert with questions, so if you have any, fire away. Be aware however, that answers quite often give me trouble. Andrew Stephenson May 10, 8:14 pm > "Tercel Owner" writes: > > [discussion of fumes leaking into driver's area] [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > through combinations of breaks in the exhaust system and rusted- > through holes in the floor (&c)? Andrew, the gasket doesn't go all around the hood, it only exists on the windshield/wiper end. It doesn't look like a bonnet, it looks like a tubular ridge just in front of the intake vents, running across the width of the windshield. The edge of the hood overshoots the gasket by quite a bit, so the gasket is not visible from the front seats, and neither is the ridge which it contacts. This also means I can't visually see how good is the seal I created with masking tape. The car is a 97 (about 8 years old)...it never had a fume problem before I had the engine replaced, and neither did my 13-year-old 89 Tercel before that. Either the gasket is more long-lived than 8 years, or it deteriorated but there were no fumes to make it matter. The body shop of the local Toyota dealer (includes sales of new & used cars, and auto-service) said that the body was in good condition, and ruled out the possibility of exhaust being pulled into the cabin. Whether exhaust is really escaping from anywhere besides the tail pipe is doubtful, for 2 reasons. My mechanic already tested it (plugged the rear & searched for leaks), as well as replacing the seal where front pipe meets exhaust manifold. Due to several baffling and major oversights at my regular garage, I brought it to the Toyota service for a fresh view (the 2nd reason). They didn't explicitly say they checked the exhaust, but I treat that as a 2nd level at which such a problem might be caught. The most concrete reason to not suspect exhaust, however, is that there is no exhaust smell. But thanks for the suggestion. Ray O May 10, 8:24 pm > I must say, you are the most diligent owner I've come across in a long time! I'll risk destroying my reputation by saying that my efforts are born out of necessity. I'm not normally this obsessive about things that don't have up-front impact. In this case, the effects are quite dramatic, severe, and long-lasting. I worry about it's long-term implications, but the immediate effects are more than enough motivation to solve the problem. > With the hood closed, check to make sure that the surface of the hood is > even - flush with the surface of the adjoining fender both at the front of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The foam will not be visible when the hood is closed and won't look as Rube > Goldberged as masking or duct tape. Had to lookup Rube Goldberg...interesting, heh heh. The gasket does appear to be in good shape, I just can't tell whether it's bulging upward /enough/. The double-sided foam tape is a good idea....it ensures a better seal in case the gasket is not contacting the hood properly, similar to what my hoops of masking tape are doing now, though probably more robust. I'll keep it in mind as the next thing to try after giving the current setup a few days of trial, and a few days to recover my lungs, if necessary. I will also check the positioning of the hood as you suggested, tomorrow, in daylight. Scott in Florida May 10, 11:18 pm > Hey Ray....I have been very impressed with this person's persistence. > I wonder if you still have any 'contacts' in the Toyota organization? > Perhaps you could pull a few strings to get this person's problem > fixed? > Seems to me this would be an excellent way for Toyota Corporate to > make some points! Wow...that would be great to get the heavy guns in there. I've already had the local Toyota place look at it...but if there are more avenues long which to troubleshoot, I'd be very interested. I just have to watch the meter, the "accident" that led up to this has been very costly. At the current time, my pockets aren't very deep, for that and other reasons. Ray O May 10, 11:33 pm > The people I'd feel comfortable asking a favor of are dealers in MA, NH, ME; > and a former co-worker who is now in Seymour, IN. If the OP is around > Chicago, I'll take a look at the car. Scott in Florida May 11, 12:18 am > I'd like to see this person helped. Ray O May 11, 12:26 am > I'm a sucker for people with car trouble, which is why I end up working on > Fords, Pontiacs, Hondas, Mitsubishis, and everything else under the sun. My > problem is that I end up accumulating tools for vehicles I don't even own. > If the OP is near the Midwest, let me know! I'm actually located in the Ottawa vicinity, in Ontario, Canada. Since I've already brought it to a Toyota service place, I wonder if I haven't already gone this route as far as is reasonable. One of the difficulties is that service staff do not notice a problem, probably because they are already exposed to pretty strong gases and smells on a frequent basis, abeit breifly. I said that half of my passengers have a problem with the fume, and now with many problems whittled away, I'm not sure what the stats are. I just know that I've exhausted their good will to act as guineau pigs (thankfully, not as listeners). Complicating this is the fact that vulnerability to the aggravating fume seems to increase with exposure; on the 3rd continuous day of driving with the fan on external ventilation, it takes a lot less exposure to cause serious reaction. So mechanics and guineau pig friends will not get to that point, though a few friends have immediate strong reaction to it indeed. > I'll bet his car dealer hopes someone helps him out too ('out' > being the operative word here of course) Well, you're right, the mechanic (not a dealer) wants nothing more to do with it. Unfortunately, it's not a problem I can live with. I really have no choice but to continue trying to find the problem, and the solution. I've done alot of stuff besides just trying to get him to troubleshoot it. On closing, I'll report my experience with my masking-tape reinforcement of the hood gasket. There is still residual fumes entering the cabin, though it appears much milder than a few days ago, the tail end of a multi-day test with myself as the guineau pig. As I mentioned, however, the effects can get more severe as the days go by, so I have to try for a while to be "sure" (as much as I ever can be with this problem). The suggestions here have been very helpful. I have a supicion as to what it is. There is this smell under the hood that is like hot coating of metal of some sort, or maybe hot plastic. Hard to place. I smell it a bit in the cabin, and after a while, my throat feels dry at first, then it induces coughing. Before any of that, my eyes feel a bit aggravated, in away that I don't experience with the windows rolled down. I have a feeling that I get use to the smell, so I have referred to the fume as "odourless" when it might not be. No one I know of has been able to identify the cause of that smell. If I had to assign a possible cause, with a confidence level, I'd say I'm 35-40% sure that it is residual chemicals used by the mechanic to remove the Krown rust control gunk that they were complaining as "being everywhere". It is possible that they went to town with its application, so its effects may linger much longer than it should (it should be gone in a matter of hours, *maybe* days in extreme cases). It has been more than a month since the last service (and I have no idea whether they even used such chemicals since the engine was replaced, months ago). Tercel Owner > Andrew Stephenson May 10, 8:14 pm >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > seats, and neither is the ridge which it contacts. This also means I > can't visually see how good is the seal I created with masking tape. T.O., a bonnet is a British term for hood. A boot = trunk, wings = fenders, windscreen = windshield <snipped discussion about exhaust leaks> >> I must say, you are the most diligent owner I've come across in a long >> time! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > implications, but the immediate effects are more than enough > motivation to solve the problem. Necessity is the mother of invention! <snipped discussion about hood and hood gasket> > Scott in Florida May 10, 11:18 pm >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > guineau pig friends will not get to that point, though a few friends > have immediate strong reaction to it indeed. Isn't TeGGeR near Ottawa? >> I'll bet his car dealer hopes someone helps him out too ('out' >> being the operative word here of course) [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Tercel Owner Hmmm... I would not be surprised if the chemicals used to remove the Krown rust control thinned the Krown stuff and it is dripping on something hot. Even with the trailing edge of the hood well-sealed, it can get past the sides of the hood and from underneath. A steam cleaning of the engine compartment might help. Are all spoilers and shields under the front of the car still in place? - They may have been removed for engine work or not replaced after an accident. The spoilers and shields will affect air flow under the car and if they are missing, more air could flow into the engine compartment, blowing more fumes. SignatureRay O correct the return address punctuation to reply > T.O., a bonnet is a British term for hood. A boot = trunk, wings = > fenders, windscreen = windshield Hmmm. Thanks for the info.... > Isn't TeGGeR near Ottawa? It'd be cool if he was.... Tercel Owner wrote: > I have a supicion as to what it is. There is this smell under the > hood that is like hot coating of metal of some sort, or maybe hot [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > than a month since the last service (and I have no idea whether they > even used such chemicals since the engine was replaced, months ago). Forgot to mention that the hot metal-coating/plastic seemed to differ from the smell of the cleaning chemical when the latter was very pronounced. It may be that the smell is perceived as different at lighter levels. > Hmmm... I would not be surprised if the chemicals used to remove the > Krown rust control thinned the Krown stuff and it is dripping on > something hot. Even with the trailing edge of the hood well-sealed, > it can get past the sides of the hood and from underneath. Trying to picture what you described. Do you mean Krown that is /inside/ the hood seeps out and rolls down down to the trailing edge and into the vents? For example, if the hood is up, gravity would do this, and if the hood is down, the wind from highway driving might do this. In fact, I peered into the vents with a flashlight and saw a 50% middle section of the bottom of the vent space has a greasy film on it. That could very well be the culprit behind the residual aggravant that I detect. Along these lines, it is possible to peer into the vents or at the hood gasket/masking tape seal from the driver's seat, but only in the dark, with a flashlight. During the day, it's too dark in there relative to everything outside. I can see my masking tape rolls, and they seem to be making tood contact between the gasket and the mirroring ridge on the underside of the hood. Any Krown that is might be dripping from the hood when the hood is closed may also contribute to the smell without even rolling down into the vents. After all, if it drips onto something hot and vapourizes, the wind would carry it to the vent intakes. > A steam cleaning of the engine compartment might help. I brought it to Ziebart for a scentless engine shampoo. They focused mostly on the walls, but I believe they did the hood as well as the engine, though probably lightly. But I'll keep the steam engine idea in mind. > Are all spoilers and shields under the front of the car still in > place? - They may have been removed for engine work or not replaced > after an accident. The spoilers and shields will affect air flow > under the car and if they are missing, more air could flow into the > engine compartment, blowing more fumes. There are baffles on the underside near the front of the car. I always thought their purpose is to prevent water from splashing up into the compartment. I am not too familiar with what the underside looked like in previous times, since my ramps are hard to get. Tercel Owner P.S. After an evening of driving, I'm pretty sure that a residual smell (and aggravation ) is present. I went outside and stuck my nose at the intake vents to see if it was really coming from under the hood. Didn't detect anything, but the ventilation fan was on at the time. If the vent fan was off and I still couldn't smell anything coming from the direction of the hood gasket, then I think I can safely attribute the smell to the oily film at the bottom of the intake filter space. > T.O., a bonnet is a British term for hood. A boot = trunk, wings = > fenders, windscreen = windshield Hmmm. Thanks for the info.... > Isn't TeGGeR near Ottawa? It'd be cool if he was.... Tercel Owner wrote: > I have a supicion as to what it is. There is this smell under the > hood that is like hot coating of metal of some sort, or maybe hot [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > than a month since the last service (and I have no idea whether they > even used such chemicals since the engine was replaced, months ago). Forgot to mention that the hot metal-coating/plastic seemed to differ from the smell of the cleaning chemical when the latter was very pronounced. It may be that the smell is perceived as different at lighter levels. > Hmmm... I would not be surprised if the chemicals used to remove the > Krown rust control thinned the Krown stuff and it is dripping on > something hot. Even with the trailing edge of the hood well-sealed, > it can get past the sides of the hood and from underneath. Trying to picture what you described. Do you mean Krown that is /inside/ the hood seeps out and rolls down down to the trailing edge and into the vents? For example, if the hood is up, gravity would do this, and if the hood is down, the wind from highway driving might do this. In fact, I peered into the vents with a flashlight and saw a 50% middle section of the bottom of the vent space has a greasy film on it. That could very well be the culprit behind the residual aggravant that I detect. Along these lines, it is possible to peer into the vents or at the hood gasket/masking tape seal from the driver's seat, but only in the dark, with a flashlight. During the day, it's too dark in there relative to everything outside. I can see my masking tape rolls, and they seem to be making tood contact between the gasket and the mirroring ridge on the underside of the hood. Any Krown that is might be dripping from the hood when the hood is closed may also contribute to the smell without even rolling down into the vents. After all, if it drips onto something hot and vapourizes, the wind would carry it to the vent intakes. > A steam cleaning of the engine compartment might help. I brought it to Ziebart for a scentless engine shampoo. They focused mostly on the walls, but I believe they did the hood as well as the engine, though probably lightly. But I'll keep the steam engine idea in mind. > Are all spoilers and shields under the front of the car still in > place? - They may have been removed for engine work or not replaced > after an accident. The spoilers and shields will affect air flow > under the car and if they are missing, more air could flow into the > engine compartment, blowing more fumes. There are baffles on the underside near the front of the car. I always thought their purpose is to prevent water from splashing up into the compartment. I am not too familiar with what the underside looked like in previous times, since my ramps are hard to get. Tercel Owner P.S. After an evening of driving, I'm pretty sure that a residual smell (and aggravation ) is present. I went outside and stuck my nose at the intake vents to see if it was really coming from under the hood. Didn't detect anything, but the ventilation fan was on at the time. If the vent fan was off and I still couldn't smell anything coming from the direction of the hood gasket, then I think I can safely attribute the smell to the oily film at the bottom of the intake filter space. >> T.O., a bonnet is a British term for hood. A boot = trunk, wings = >> fenders, windscreen = windshield [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > engine, though probably lightly. But I'll keep the steam engine > idea in mind. I am not familiar with Krown rust proofing but from what I've read, it is pretty drippy and so it could seep from places like the under surface of the hood, fenders, firewall, or even undercarriage on to the hot engine or exhaust. A steam cleaning would hopefully melt some excess Krown and let it drip out more quickly. >> Are all spoilers and shields under the front of the car still in >> place? - They may have been removed for engine work or not replaced [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Tercel Owner The spoilers and shields serve several purposes. They control air flow into and under the engine compartment and radiator to help engine cooling and aerodynamics as well as controlling water splashes. > P.S. After an evening of driving, I'm pretty sure that a residual smell > (and aggravation ) is present. I went outside and stuck my nose at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the direction of the hood gasket, then I think I can safely attribute > the smell to the oily film at the bottom of the intake filter space. There should not be anything at the bottom of the intake vents except perhaps some water from rain, and even that should drain out. Rather than going after the heater core, it might be worth getting at the vents from under the dashboard and trying to wipe them clean. SignatureRay O correct the return address punctuation to reply >I am not familiar with Krown rust proofing but from what I've read, it is >pretty drippy and so it could seep from places like the under surface of >the hood, fenders, firewall, or even undercarriage on to the hot engine or >exhaust. A steam cleaning would hopefully melt some excess Krown and let it >drip out more quickly. I dropped by Krown and told them that my mechanic is convinced that they spray into the intake vent's meshes. My mechanic's rationale for saying this is that the compartment immediately beneath the intake vent mesh serves to collect water eg. from the windshield. Apparently, the compartment runs the width of the car, directing water to drainage holes at either side. Hence, it is very susceptible to rust, and badly needs rust protection. I can see his reason for thinking (adamantly) that Krown is sprayed into the vents, but Krown denies that they do this. I am inclined to believe them. They also say that the formal technique is to spray the interior of the hood lightly, specifically to avoid a mess on the engine from drip. To test the hypothesis that it might pool at the windshield end of the hood when the hood is up for long periods, we looked at the metal work along that edge. There were no openings where Krown can escape and drip into the vents intakes. There were some holes in the underside of the hood, but it didn't appear likely that Krown would roll down the underside and into the vents. The Krown guy hypothesized that during the engine replacement, a snafu happened and some fluid sprayed everywhere, eventually making its way into the vents. My mechanic might not even know about it, since it is likely that he had someone else working on my car (he is the proprietor). I related this to the instructor of my car care course, who said there is normally no substance in the compartment immediately beneath the mesh for the intake vents. He suggests trying to remove the mesh and cleaning it myself rather than requiring my mechanic to do it. Even though it happened during the engine replacement, better to preserve a relationship than dot every "i" and cross every "t". I'm somewhat miffed cuz this has been a very expensive problem, in terms of cash but also stupendously in terms of time. I don't expect to be able to try cleaning it for at least a few days, if not weeks. My experience has been that it is wise to set aside lots of extra time for things with which I am unfamiliar. I hope the mesh /can/ be removed without going through the dash. >The spoilers and shields serve several purposes. They control air flow into >and under the engine compartment and radiator to help engine cooling and >aerodynamics as well as controlling water splashes. Thanks for clarifying again. It's interesting to know its engineered areodyamic effects. >There should not be anything at the bottom of the intake vents except >perhaps some water from rain, and even that should drain out. Rather than >going after the heater core, it might be worth getting at the vents from >under the dashboard and trying to wipe them clean. Yes, and with luck, it can be accessed from the outside. My instructor says to be careful that the wipers are aligned exactly the same as before. On a positive note, my mechanic seems to have accepted my oil readings when I showed him the comprehensive measurements plotted out with clear trends. It is obvious when all the data is there that his own measurements would not be be adequate to determine oil loss; they were too few, and taken with significant top-offs in between. He agrees that it exceeds his own threshold of acceptability enormously, but he wants to wait for the next oil change in 1000km, measure the level at "High", and measure again when it reaches "Low". Otherwise, he doesn't feel there is enough evidence to convince the engine vendor to foot the bill for some remediation (either another engine, used or rebuilt, or to rebuild the current one). I initially thought he had plenty of information on the bills of work that have been generated e.g. the last reading of low oil level. Then I recalled that he hadn't actually documented the last time it was topped off, after fixing a leaking gasket. Oh well. I am considering asking him to do the oil change when the current oil level reaches "Low" (very soon) rather than in 1000km. I'm not comfortable with letting the situation drag on, since I'm not sure what my own situation will be from month to month. This experience with engine replacement has shown me that it takes months just to figure out whether an engine is bad or good enough. Any opinions on this are welcome. Tercel Owner >>There should not be anything at the bottom of the intake vents except >>perhaps some water from rain, and even that should drain out. Rather than [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >says to be careful that the wipers are aligned exactly the same as >before. One thing that bugs me about getting too hopeful about this new-found film on the floor of the intake vents is that I already subjected it to the warm water of the spray guns in do-it-yourself car- washes. That's a pretty powerfull spray, and done quite a while back. It's amazing that there's enough film left to make any difference at all. Today, since the weather was quite cold, the caustic fume seems to be much less bothersome. I am assuming that the cold makes the oil less easily picked up by the air coming in. I can imagine that if the temperature hadn't warmed up over the last few months, the fumes would get less with time. However, that effect might be countered by the warming weather. Even the the remaining oily film has lessened, its warmer temperature makes it more easily picked up by passing air. This is more gut feeling than science. Tercel Owner > One thing that bugs me about getting too hopeful about this new-found > film on the floor of the intake vents is that I already subjected it [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > warmer temperature makes it more easily picked up by passing air. > This is more gut feeling than science. Forgot to mention that Krown guy suggested talking to his mechanic, a revered ancient Japanese master auto mechanic (MAM) in town. MAM said that there are many things that can get soaked with oil during the change, and there are many ways by which gases from such residue can get into the cabin, even when the vehicle is moving e.g. due to turbulence, say, underneath the car. He queried me on my driving habits and timing of events since the problem started. His conclusion was that I don't drive continuously for a long enough duration for the engine to reach its steady-state hotness. He advised driving continuously for 2 hours if I really wanted to burn away any residual coatings e.g. from parts being soaked during the engine change. So I will find a chunk of time to test that theory. Failing that, he can install a cabin filter to see if that helps. I'm a bit skeptical about the latter, since such filters are meant to trap particulate matter -- it depends on the size of the traces of contaminant picked up by the air (and in his scenario, it might not be the oily film in the intake vents). But one thing at a time, and if it comes down to that, then I will find the cost and mull over the option. He also commented on a curious physiological effect. It may be the case that by now, the contaminant has faded in intensity. However, the human body can become sensitized to aggravating substances with exposure, so I might be bothered by levels which wouldn't be an issue if I hadn't been exposed to high initial doses. Interesting theory, and not the first I've heard of such, but I heard it applied to allergies. I think the fumes around my car are still quite strong, though -- another student in my car care class found them very intense when the hood was lifted. And this is when *I* find them not very strong. Tercel Owner > Andrew, the gasket doesn't go all around the hood, it only exists on > the windshield/wiper end. It doesn't look like a bonnet, it looks > like a tubular ridge just in front of the intake vents, [...] Just to tidy up the terminology: "bonnet" is what we in the UK call what you NorAmericans call "hood" (in the context of cars). Why we call it a bonnet, gawd knows; as you suggest, our word is not the first to come to mind for that part of a car. Anyhow, it sounds like you have the problem narrowed down, so it should be solvable, with lots of sticky, squidgy stuff. If you (or the car at least) are in Canada, whatever stuff you use will have to be up to the wide temperature cycles I hear Canada gets, or replacement could become an annual ritual. Good luck with it. SignatureAndrew Stephenson >Just to tidy up the terminology: "bonnet" is what we in the UK >call what you NorAmericans call "hood" (in the context of cars). >Why we call it a bonnet, gawd knows; as you suggest, our word is >not the first to come to mind for that part of a car. No, I'd think a bonnet was more like a nose-bra or something... ;) >Anyhow, it sounds like you have the problem narrowed down, so it >should be solvable, with lots of sticky, squidgy stuff. If you >(or the car at least) are in Canada, whatever stuff you use will >have to be up to the wide temperature cycles I hear Canada gets, >or replacement could become an annual ritual. Actually, every time I try a new troubleshooting, it seems like the answer. Because I wait several days for my lungs to heal, and initial exposure seems to have quite mild effects. It is only after several days of exposure that the effects become severe and only short exposures are needed to provoke bad and prolonged reaction. After a few days of on-and-off exposure, I suspect that this is not the main cause. Instead, I think it's the oily film at the floor of the compartment immediately on the interior side of the mesh for the external intake vents. The instructor for the car-care course that I enrolled in says that there should normally be no substance in there at all. The air that gushes into that compartment probably picks traces of that oily film as it enters the cabin. It seems that it should be a few screws to remove the mesh and wipe down the compartment. I just have make sure I realign the wipers exactly as they are now. >Good luck with it. Thanks. Tercel Owner Clarification below. Context: Need to use tape to block off possible pathway for noxious fumes from under hood, through hood gasket, and into intake vents (beneath wiper). Ridged surface makes it hard. > To get around the problem of tape-unfriendliness, I opened the hood > and looked at where the hood gasket contacts the hood. There is a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the intake vents. To hopefully prevent this, I put abutted rolls of > masking tape along hood gasket. Seems to help. I didn't see this possible misinterpretation: I didn't put an entire "roll" of masking tape right on the hood gasket, as in a roll bought at the store (which weights one to several pounds). The "rolls are formed from 3-inch lengths of 2-inch wide masking tape, rolled like a cigar into a 3-inch long hollow cyninder of about 1-cm diameter. The tacky side is on the outside. These rolls are oriented parallel to the hood gasket, place side by side on top of the gasket. The ridge on the the underside of the hood closes down on the tape rolls, whereas they would normally close down directly on the gasket. > I hesitate to say once again that I solved the problem because it > also felt that way when I bypassed the coolant around the heater [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > constant opening/closing the hood (which I have to do the check oil, > since it is still being lost at nonneglegible rates). |
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