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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / September 20052005 Prius
Hello All, First time poster here, long time lurker. I just put a deposit on an 05 Prius. Should arrive in about 2 weeks. I drove a used 04 model today and like the way it drives and feels (had 16k miles on it and only 2 years left on warranty). Dealer was asking in my opinion way too much at 23,995. I offered 22k and he would not budge from it. Said someone will buy it at that price. The new ones are not much over that starting around 24k (depending on options). My question is: Is anyone on the board familiar with these models, own one, or know anything about them other than they are getting harder to come by. Any known mechanical problems or other issues to be aware of? Thanks BTW: I thought this board was for discussing Toyota products and not so much of the OT items as I've seen lately. > Hello All, > First time poster here, long time lurker. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > BTW: I thought this board was for discussing Toyota products and not so > much of the OT items as I've seen lately. Well, see our Toyotas run so well that we rarely have to discuss them, but we like the group, so the OT posts work themselves in. Add to that the fact that we are ALL opinionated SOBs and you get what we have here, which is how he wants...er, sorry. Off on a tangent again... As for the Prius. it IS a Toyota so it will probably be a good car in the long haul. The bad news is that as with any New Technology, there is teething problems. So far these have expressed themselves in the Prius as software glitches and battery problems. They seem to have these worked out now, but you are also running a multi-motor system that is pretty complicated. I would say that as a NEW owner you won't have any problems; I wouldn't want this as a third-owner car. Worn brakes and shocks I can deal with; a faulty electrical system on this car will be a nightmare... And don't think you'll save any gas; I had a Tercel that did just as well as a Prius in the Gas department. On the plus side, it IS a well-built car in terms of body and interior, it looks nice (I like the older models and their "Japanese Beetle" design better, but the current model is cool) it has a cavernous interior for it's size; it has laser LED taillights and it looks cool. There is one thing I don't like about this car above all else, and I think it may prove to be a liability (a REAL liability...) and that is the gear selector. I drive these things every day and I'm waiting for the day when I'm backed into a row of cars, put it into Drive, turn the wheel and throw the lever into Reverse instead. Cool system (so was the old Dodge push-button...) but I can see some failing with it, sort of like unintended acceleration...  SignatureIt doesn't take a genius to know the difference between chicken sh.t and chicken salad... Thanks for the reply. I can understand how the gear selector can be a hazard. Definitely need time to get used to this new way of shifting. I think the "B" in the shifter can get real confusing if trying to use it. The way I understand what it is, it's like a "jake brake" on an 18-wheeler. I can see the wife now trying to use that feature and running into something. You mention you drive one everyday; do you own one or work for a dealer and drive theirs? Can you elaborate on the gas issue. What is the avg range per gallon you've experienced? Thanks skydog ----- Original Message ----- From: "HachiRoku" <Trueno@ae86.GTS> Newsgroups: alt.autos.toyota Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 7:19 PM Subject: Re: 2005 Prius SNIP......... > There is one thing I don't like about this car above all else, and I think > it may prove to be a liability (a REAL liability...) and that is the gear [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > push-button...) but I can see some failing with it, sort of like > unintended acceleration... > Thanks for the reply. I can understand how the gear selector can be a > hazard. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> push-button...) but I can see some failing with it, sort of like >> unintended acceleration... I've seen an awful lot of gear selectors that went P N D L R before they 'fixed' them in 1957 or so. Charles of Kankakee > Thanks for the reply. I can understand how the gear selector can be a > hazard. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Thanks > skydog I work for a Toy dealer now; I worked for a used car dealer before. I had a Tercel a couple years ago, and we had a Prius. I drive mostly rural roads, small towns (that call themsevles 'cities') and highway, but I like the old US route better. I can usually drive 40-50MPH almost all the time during my travels. Under these circumstances, with my Tercel I was getting approx 45 MPG as an average. (Why did I EVER sellthat car?! Oh, Yeah...to buy a Supra...) The same driving with the Prius for about a week yielded about 42MPG!!! Maybe I was driving the Prius a little more 'spiredtedly', and maybe a *little* more in town driving, but then I used to press the pedal on the Tercel pretty hard, and drove it on the highway at 75 a lot. I don't have any long term data; I can tell you one thing: I like the car. If you're buying it to save gas; maybe. If you're buying it to make a statement, maybe; if you're buying it because you want a nice little car with bleeding-edge technology, this is it. The only problem I have with that is that sooner or later texhnology breaks; this looks to me like a pretty expensive car to fix. Make sure you have money for any extra repairs before you buy one, once the warranty is up. I don't have anything that says they break any more than any other Toyota; they are having some teething problems that are fixed by the manufacturer. Oh, yeah...and with the electric motor being the primary, they go pretty well... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "HachiRoku" <Trueno@ae86.GTS> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> push-button...) but I can see some failing with it, sort of like >> unintended acceleration... SignatureIt doesn't take a genius to know the difference between chicken sh.t and chicken salad... You'll love your new Prius. I've had mine for a week and I'm getting 58.5 MPG on the highway. Doug http://silverprius.blogspot.com >BTW: I thought this board was for discussing Toyota products and not so >much of the OT items as I've seen lately. Pound sand....WBMA SignatureScott in Florida "A Democratic shift to the right risks inflaming the party's Angry Left base, while a shift to the left would surely cost the party whatever support it has left from normal people." James Taranto - Wall Street Journal I see you live in Florida Scott, so you must have a lot of sand to pound over there after Katrina. Do you need help, is that why you came back with your statement. I'd be happy to assist. Not a problem. Hope you made it through with no damage. Any worthwhile comments (good or bad) on the Prius? skydog. >>BTW: I thought this board was for discussing Toyota products and not so >>much of the OT items as I've seen lately. > > Pound sand....WBMA >I see you live in Florida Scott, so you must have a lot of sand to pound >over there after Katrina. Do you need help, is that why you came back with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Any worthwhile comments (good or bad) on the Prius? As you know....you made a snide remark and I did the same... >skydog. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> Pound sand....WBMA > SignatureScott in Florida "A Democratic shift to the right risks inflaming the party's Angry Left base, while a shift to the left would surely cost the party whatever support it has left from normal people." James Taranto - Wall Street Journal > Hello All, > First time poster here, long time lurker. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > or know anything about them other than they are getting harder to come by. > Any known mechanical problems or other issues to be aware of? Our Prius is a week old. It was one of two on the dealer's lot. Both had option-package 5 -- essentially everything but the nav system. Both were available at strictly sticker price. AFAIK the only quickly discernible difference between the '04 and '05 is the '05's rear wiper. Given the radically sloped glass, I suspect the wiper will be a useful feature. I don't know why they would have added that wiper if the need for it hadn't outweighed the aerodynamic penalty. My dealer had a used '04. I passed it up because I could imagine unpleasant reasons why an owner would bail out after a year. Probably not to get the rear wiper. :-) Our initial impression is that this would be a great car even without the hybrid technology. The interior room is startling, and adding to the utility are seven tie-downs. The seats are very comfortable, even on long trips with few breaks. The maneuverability is amazing. The interior is quiet. The unconventional shift lever is a non-issue for us. A warning tone sounds repeatedly when the transmission is in Reverse, so I don't understand why confusion would be possible. I'm glad to have a shifter that wastes zero space. The gap between the front seats is better devoted to storage, and Toyota has made good use of it. Toyota did skimp on one common feature. IMO it's a risky economy. The digital clock is a tiny display lost in the rest of the dashboard. It takes the driver's eyes off the road for too long. We've gotten 50.something mpg over the initial 750 miles of mixed turnpike and town driving. That's about double our '98 Avalon's rate, and the Prius suits our needs better. WWhat did we give up that has graced all our recent cars? Two things: moonroof and rain gutters. I find that on long trips the moonroof's brisk airflow is better than caffeine for alertness. Even with the mpg penalty I'd have ordered it, and I'd have settled for a tilt-only model. The rain gutters, you say? Yes, my Thule roof rack can't be adapted to the Prius (yet). My next long trip will be in the Avalon because I have to transport a new stormdoor. Aside -- Traveling alone, I *might* be able to fit the boxed stormdoor fully inside the Prius. The front seatbacks recline to the horizontal, creating a clear span from the liftgate to the dashboard. (See the owner's manual under "Seats" for the how-to.) I'll check that possibility and post the outcome here. A major consideration will be the extent to which I can secure the box against movement in an emergency. This Prius is more fun than I've had with a new car since my TR3. I bet you'll feel good about yours too, Skydog. Wishing you the best, Brent "I told her to get the brakes fixed... but she's dragging her feet." -- Remark in alt.autos.toyota <snipped> > The rain gutters, you say? Yes, my Thule roof rack can't be adapted to > the Prius (yet). My next long trip will be in the Avalon because I have > to transport a new stormdoor. > Brent > "I told her to get the brakes fixed... > but she's dragging her feet." > -- Remark in alt.autos.toyota Go to www.thuleracks.com and check out the racks available to fit the 2005 Prius. They show the 400XT Aero Foot Pack, LB 50 Load Bars, and 2142 Fit kit. Or, if you have round load bars, go to www.yakima.com and look at the Q Tower for a foot that will hold round bars. I understand that the round load bars for Yakima and Thule are pretty much interchangeable. A sporting goods store that sells both, like REI, can confirm that for you. SignatureRay O correct the return address punctuation to reply > <snipped> > > > The rain gutters, you say? Yes, my Thule roof rack can't be adapted to > > the Prius (yet). My next long trip will be in the Avalon because I have > > to transport a new stormdoor. > Go to www.thuleracks.com and check out the racks available to fit the 2005 > Prius. They show the 400XT Aero Foot Pack, LB 50 Load Bars, and 2142 Fit [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > load bars for Yakima and Thule are pretty much interchangeable. A sporting > goods store that sells both, like REI, can confirm that for you. Ray, when I joined this newsgroup I quickly learned the value of your contributions. Thank you for this one in particular. Brent >> <snipped> >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Brent You're very welcome! Good luck on the trip with the stormdoor. SignatureRay O correct the return address punctuation to reply Buy a new Corolla and say $10k --- that buys a lot of gas at even $3/gallon. Plus they handle a whole lot better and repairs will be less over the years and they have great resale value. I don't believe a 4 year old Prius will have the same resale demand since the technology changes so fast. > Hello All, > First time poster here, long time lurker. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > BTW: I thought this board was for discussing Toyota products and not so > much of the OT items as I've seen lately. > Buy a new Corolla and say $10k --- that buys a lot of gas at even $3/gallon. > Plus they handle a whole lot better and repairs will be less over the years > and they have great resale value. I don't believe a 4 year old Prius will > have the same resale demand since the technology changes so fast. There is so great a selection that each of us can buy the car of choice. I'm glad that you're as satisified with your Corolla as I am with my Prius. I look on the Prius as a petroleum time-machine. When today's gas prices have doubled, I'll be filling up then for what many are paying now. And what will be the demand for used Priuses under those conditions? None of us knows. Brent A sliver of moon slides by on a high wind calling, "I know why; I'll see you tomorrow; I'll tell you everything tomorrow." -- Carl Sandburg in "Potomac Town in February" > > Hello All, > > First time poster here, long time lurker. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > BTW: I thought this board was for discussing Toyota products and not so > > much of the OT items as I've seen lately. > And what will be the demand for used Priuses under those conditions? > None of us knows. I can almost guarantee that any vehicle that gets less than 20 mpg will depreciate faster than any hybrid. B~ In article <0S5Qe.685970$cg1.596174@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, B. Peg <bent_peg@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > > And what will be the demand for used Priuses under those conditions? > > None of us knows. > > I can almost guarantee that any vehicle that gets less than 20 mpg will > depreciate faster than any hybrid. We agree on the probability. A friend has recently bought a huge SUV. I expect that minus its wheels it will be a suitable shed for his push-mower. :-) Brent >> Buy a new Corolla and say $10k --- that buys a lot of gas at even $3/gallon. >> Plus they handle a whole lot better and repairs will be less over the years [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > And what will be the demand for used Priuses under those conditions? > None of us knows. There is a way to hack into a Prius through a port and change the programming. They program it for the US differently than for the rest of the world because they figure we want power and speed and gas savings are an extra added attraction. The rest of the world gets one that runs more on the electric motor and keeps the gas motor off longer. There's a web site somewhere, the guy wrote his own software and attached a Sharp Libretto so he can monitor the entire system and make changes on the fly. > Brent > A sliver of moon slides by on a high wind calling, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> > BTW: I thought this board was for discussing Toyota products and not so >> > much of the OT items as I've seen lately. SignatureIt doesn't take a genius to know the difference between chicken sh.t and chicken salad... >>> Buy a new Corolla and say $10k --- that buys a lot of gas at even >>> $3/gallon. Plus they handle a whole lot better and repairs will be [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > and attached a Sharp Libretto so he can monitor the entire system and > make changes on the fly. However *all* of the energy that runs a Prius is derived from gasoline, just like any other car. IOW there is no free lunch. Well to be absolutely correct, internal combustion engines use oxygen as well as gasoline, in fact they use a LOT of it. > Well to be absolutely correct, internal combustion engines use oxygen > as well as gasoline, in fact they use a LOT of it. Good point, but at least nobody has figured out how to charge us for the oxygen (so far). Merritt >>>> Buy a new Corolla and say $10k --- that buys a lot of gas at even >>>> $3/gallon. Plus they handle a whole lot better and repairs will be [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > However *all* of the energy that runs a Prius is derived from gasoline, > just like any other car. IOW there is no free lunch. Not entirely. There is a position "B" on the gear selector for Engine Braking, like L or 2, that generates current going down hills. It doesn't slow the car a lot, but does turn on the wheel generators and recharges the batteries. Also, every time you hit the brakes, the wheel generators create current and charges the batteries, so not all the current is generated by the engine. And by hacking the settings, you can turn on the electric motor far mor than the gas engine. SignatureIt doesn't take a genius to know the difference between chicken sh.t and chicken salad... snip >> However *all* of the energy that runs a Prius is derived from gasoline, >> just like any other car. IOW there is no free lunch. > >Not entirely. Yes Hashi...entirely...absolutely entirely... >There is a position "B" on the gear selector for Engine >Braking, like L or 2, that generates current going down hills. It doesn't >slow the car a lot, but does turn on the wheel generators and recharges >the batteries. True, but it took gasoline to get UP the hill initially didn't it?. For every downhill there's an equal uphill somewhere. >Also, every time you hit the brakes, the wheel generators create current >and charges the batteries, so not all the current is generated by the >engine. Sure it is!... it took gasoline to get the car moving in the first place didn't it?... :) >And by hacking the settings, you can turn on the electric motor far mor >than the gas engine. But it won't help in the long run because you need gasoline to make the energy and store it (as speed) in the vehicle's inertia. There ain't no free lunch!!... :) -- -Gord. (use gordon in email) > "Gord Beaman" > There ain't no free lunch!!... :) Ah, but there are more efficient ways to eating your lunch. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tech/TechSnapPrius1_5_01b.pdf There is other information on the main site (downloadable dealers sheets, I believe) that explains the power and energy losses from an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) verses a hybrid. If they were so inefficient, the railroad would have given up their locomotives that run diesel generators to run the electric motors for their wheel years ago. Running a diesel engine to run their wheels directly would be a very inefficient method of supplying power (and lots of it!). The distance they cover would be lost in higher fuel consumption to drive a engine-based locomotive with the problems of power train losses that are less with the electric motors. B~ >> "Gord Beaman" >> There ain't no free lunch!!... :) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > B~ I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here but the fact is, diesel/electric locomotives are popular and in use for reasons that have nothing to do with fuel efficiency. Now that fuel economy is an issue, diesel locomotives with newly designed automatic transmissions are slowly catching on because they're more efficient than the diesel/electric configuration. The simple move to CVTs in automobiles would allow ICEs to spend more operational time in their high efficiency 'sweet-spot' thus improving efficiency. Automatically Stopping/starting ICEs in downtown traffic is easy enough to do too - no need for the complexities of a hybrid. Buy one if you want but there are much cheaper and safer ways to improve fuel efficiency. Some of the electric hybrid's efficiency lies in the lower power loss through the drive train over that of an ICE. If one assumes that fuel in equals 100%, then you soon also learn that the amount of power at the rear tires is maybe 13%, for a loss of around 87% just in the ICE and drive train. Fwiw, the majority around 63% is lost in the ICE alone. An electric motor loses far less than an ICE with more friction surfaces, hence greater efficiency. So one's "No free lunch" becomes a "Better digested lunch." See http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml if you like diagrams. B~ > Some of the electric hybrid's efficiency lies in the lower power loss > through the drive train over that of an ICE. If one assumes that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > lunch" becomes a "Better digested lunch." > See http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml if you like diagrams. OK, but the Prius suffers from all these loses too plus the additional electrical/chemical ones. : OK, but the Prius suffers from all these loses too plus the additional : electrical/chemical ones. Actually, the losses are far less than were it totally a gas engine. The gas side is out of the picture if the less-loss electrical motor is powering the car. Greater torque and efficiency is gained from the pair in unison since the inherent loss of the gas engine is coupled with the not as great loss of the electric motor added to the output power. That is why Toyota can achieve times almost equal to that of the Camry, although the Prius has the smaller engine with lower net loss. In short, better efficiency equals better fuel mileage with almost equal performance. Not to mention any small gains (I.a. "free fuel") made from regenerative braking that you do not receive from the gas-only vehicle which is otherwise lost. Mack > : OK, but the Prius suffers from all these loses too plus the additional > : electrical/chemical ones. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Mack Thanks, Mack, for the injection of lucidity into the discussion. I thought I'd just add that this engine uses the Atkinson-Miller Cycle http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/InternalCombustion.htm which makes it quite a bit more efficient in converting the energy in gasoline to electrical or rotational power than the Otto-Cycle that is common to most other gasoline engines. Chuck >>> OK, but the Prius suffers from all these loses too plus the >>> additional electrical/chemical ones. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Chuck Say, Chuck, why not keep the lucidity streak going by pointing out that Atkinson-Miller Cycle ICEs don't need a hybrid sticker to work. They have and do work in non-hybrid vehicles too. In fact, since all the vehicles we're discussing require 'rotational power', why not use Atkinson-Miller Cycle ICEs everywhere? >> OK, but the Prius suffers from all these loses too plus the >> additional electrical/chemical ones. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that of the Camry, although the Prius has the smaller engine with > lower net loss. Actually, the losses aren't far less but are somewhat less under a strict, limited set of circumstances (certain types of city driving). Torque is purely additive. The two together or separately doesn't make any difference. > In short, better efficiency equals better fuel mileage with almost > equal performance. Not to mention any small gains (I.a. "free fuel") > made from regenerative braking that you do not receive from the > gas-only vehicle which is otherwise lost. If we're still talking about the 4 cylinder Camry, performance is somewhat equal only until the Prius batteries are exhausted which happens quickly. After that, there's an extended period when Prius performance lags because the ICE engine must power the car and charge the batteries. As long as the Camry doesn't run out of gasoline, it has no such limitation, therefore, the two really aren't comparable. It's been pointed out before that the "free fuel" downhill power was paid for, in gasoline, when climbing the hill. > > Some of the electric hybrid's efficiency lies in the lower power loss > > through the drive train over that of an ICE. If one assumes that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > OK, but the Prius suffers from all these loses too plus the additional > electrical/chemical ones. But the losses are not additive, and overall the hybrid scheme has less loss (more efficiency) than a pure ICE automobile. Merritt > "FanJet" wrote: > OK, but the Prius suffers from all these loses too plus the additional > electrical/chemical ones. How about a practical example: Suppose you have a Camry (make it an economical 4 banger) and a Prius sitting in your driveway. You need to drive 800 miles to a job per your boss. Which do you choose and why - assuming your boss gave you $200 for the entire trip to spend? Just an efficiency/curiosity exam............ ;o) B~ >> "Gord Beaman" >> There ain't no free lunch!!... :) > >Ah, but there are more efficient ways to eating your lunch. Of course...you're absolutely right...BUT that wasn't the thrust of the argument was it? :) -- -Gord. (use gordon in email) > Not entirely. There is a position "B" on the gear selector for Engine > Braking, like L or 2, that generates current going down hills. It doesn't [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > And by hacking the settings, you can turn on the electric motor far mor > than the gas engine. All of those things may improve the efficiency of the Prius power plant, so that it gets more miles per gallon, but it doesn't change the fact that all of the Prius's energy comes from gasoline. Unless there was an outside mechanism to lift the Prius to the top of that hill so it could coast down, or to get the Prius up to speed so you could use the brakes to generate electricity, that potential energy that is being converted into electricity was totally produced by burning gasoline in the Prius engine. Merritt But do you need $10 to make it up the hill, or can you do it on $3? I may prefer a Hummer, but a Prius could do it far cheaper. Mack > But do you need $10 to make it up the hill, or can you do it on $3? > > I may prefer a Hummer, but a Prius could do it far cheaper. Exactly, that is what I meant by improving efficiency. But, in a car like the Prius, it is still a matter of improving the efficiency with which you use gasoline, even if the wheels are driven by electricity. Merritt >> Not entirely. There is a position "B" on the gear selector for Engine >> Braking, like L or 2, that generates current going down hills. It doesn't [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Merritt Have you driven one? I always left the monitor so that it showed where the power was coming from, and going up that hill it would use both motors. Going down the hill in "B" would regenerate and recharge the batteries. So, not ALL the power stored in the batteries comes from the gas engine. This is also shown on the monitor. In fact, in the brief time I drove one, I actually managed to generate enough electricity to fully charge the batteries and more. SignatureIt doesn't take a genius to know the difference between chicken sh.t and chicken salad... >Have you driven one? I always left the monitor so that it showed where the >power was coming from, and going up that hill it would use both motors. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >In fact, in the brief time I drove one, I actually managed to generate >enough electricity to fully charge the batteries and more. Is that why you rear ended that car in front of you? Paying attention to the computer display??? SignatureScott in Florida "A Democratic shift to the right risks inflaming the party's Angry Left base, while a shift to the left would surely cost the party whatever support it has left from normal people." James Taranto - Wall Street Journal >>Have you driven one? I always left the monitor so that it showed where the >>power was coming from, and going up that hill it would use both motors. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Paying attention to the computer display??? I HATE THAT FRIGGIN THING! My God, the person who designed that must work for an Insurance Co off the table. I'm sure if I had had the car for longer I would have learned to ignore it, but for the week or so I was driving it it was just an eye-magnet! >>> Not entirely. There is a position "B" on the gear selector for Engine >>> Braking, like L or 2, that generates current going down hills. It doesn't [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >In fact, in the brief time I drove one, I actually managed to generate >enough electricity to fully charge the batteries and more. Look Hachi...let's get down to basics here...let's start out with dead drive batteries and an empty gas tank... Not much happenin' right?... Still nothin happening, right?...hummm...we fool around with switches and move every bloody control (except the engine starter) we can find...nuttin' right?... Now then...this ain't right productive issit?. Well, let's dump one gallon of gas into her, and start up the gas engine...woohoo...here we go...we drive for awhile till we use all the gas up and the gas engine dies then we use the batteries till they go dead...now we've moved maybe 55 miles...hasn't those 55 miles ALL come from that gallon of gas?...sure it has...the only thing that's different is that we moved 55 miles and used one gallon of gas...huh?... :) The above of course ignores the fact that you likely cannot kill the drive batteries (nor start out with dead batteries either), but that's just a practical limitation, doesn't affect the example. ALL of the distance travelled comes from the gasoline. whether directly or indirectly doesn't matter, it all comes from the gasoline in the long run. -- -Gord. (use gordon in email) >>>> Not entirely. There is a position "B" on the gear selector for Engine >>>> Braking, like L or 2, that generates current going down hills. It doesn't [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > whether directly or indirectly doesn't matter, it all comes from > the gasoline in the long run. But this still doesn't take into account any regeneration from braking or rolling down hills! When I was driving one, I got the batteries topped up quite a bit just by braking and rolling down hills. I also managed to 'fool' the car into staying on the batteries more than the gas engine. So, quite often, esp when going downhill, the gas engine was OFF and the batteries were CHARGING. Where I was driving the thing, if I took one route I was going downhill more often, and a different route home did the same thing. I was actually OFF the gas engine quite a bit. Yes, Logic would say all the mileage comes from gas, but practice is quite different. snip >> ALL of the distance travelled comes from the gasoline. >> whether directly or indirectly doesn't matter, it all comes from [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >rolling down hills! When I was driving one, I got the batteries topped up >quite a bit just by braking and rolling down hills. But, think about it a minute...the energy that you -recaptured- by braking was paid for with gas (the car didn't just suddenly -get- that speed) >I also managed to >'fool' the car into staying on the batteries more than the gas engine. >So, quite often, esp when going downhill, the gas engine was OFF and the >batteries were CHARGING. Where I was driving the thing, if I took one >route I was going downhill more often, and a different route home did the >same thing. I was actually OFF the gas engine quite a bit. Yes, BUT you have to average out the up hill and down hill because, in the long run, for EVERY UPHILL there's an equal DOWNHILL and, if you ended up in the same place, then it wouldn't MATTER what ROUTES you took, you HAD TO climb just as many feet of elevation as you descended didn't you? :) >Yes, Logic would say all the mileage comes from gas, but practice is >quite different. I beg to differ Hachi...it's all from gas but it IS more efficient... Think about this...there's NO OTHER SOURCE of energy than the gasoline, so where's the extra energy coming from? These cars just USE the gasoline more efficiently...regular cars lose energy when they brake (the energy turns to heat and is lost) while hybrids return some of that energy to the batteries. -- -Gord. (use gordon in email) > snip > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > MATTER what ROUTES you took, you HAD TO climb just as many feet > of elevation as you descended didn't you? :) Yes, I guess I did. But one was a steep downhill, the other was a long, gradual uphill. So I would take the steep one TO work and the more level one home. THe thing was, the long gradual way home actually brought you higher than when you started so you were going downhill at the end, and i was on the batteries quite a lot. >>Yes, Logic would say all the mileage comes from gas, but practice is >>quite different. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > when they brake (the energy turns to heat and is lost) while > hybrids return some of that energy to the batteries. >>>>> Not entirely. There is a position "B" on the gear selector for >>>>> Engine Braking, like L or 2, that generates current going down [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > Yes, Logic would say all the mileage comes from gas, but practice is > quite different. There's a phrase for machines that deliver more than you put in and it's not Toyota Prius. > "Gord Beaman" wrote in message: > Well, let's dump one gallon of gas into her, and start up the gas [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > only thing that's different is that we moved 55 miles and used > one gallon of gas...huh?... :) Gee, same analogy could be said if you were to switch gas for battery. Dump all the gas out. Charge the battery and go. Did you need gas? Most all would agree the hybrid is more efficient in use of gasoline than the older ICE though. If I am paying out of my wallet, the hybrid will win for vehicle of choice with regards to less fuel consumed compared to the ICE vehicle. Now if I want to be a pig, I'll go borrow the neighbor's Hummer and give him a couple of bucks for gas. :p B~ > >> Not entirely. There is a position "B" on the gear selector for Engine > >> Braking, like L or 2, that generates current going down hills. It doesn't [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Have you driven one? I always left the monitor so that it showed where the > power was coming from, and going up that hill it would use both motors. Right. The gasoline engine is powering the car and charging the batteries (which are also powering the car). > Going down the hill in "B" would regenerate and recharge the batteries. > So, not ALL the power stored in the batteries comes from the gas engine. > This is also shown on the monitor. So where is it coming from? Believe me, ALL the power stored in the batteries (beyond their initial charge when installed) comes from either the gasoline engine, or the potential energy created when the gasoline engine drove you up a hill. > In fact, in the brief time I drove one, I actually managed to generate > enough electricity to fully charge the batteries and more. Of course, why not? But you are burning gasoline to do it. YOU CAN NOT GET MORE ENERGY OUT THAN YOU PUT IN, AND THE ONLY THING YOU PUT IN IS GASOLINE (AND OXYGEN FROM THE AIR). Merritt Merritt Mullen <mmullen8014@mchsi.com> wrote: snip >Of course, why not? But you are burning gasoline to do it. YOU CAN NOT >GET MORE ENERGY OUT THAN YOU PUT IN, AND THE ONLY THING YOU PUT IN IS >GASOLINE (AND OXYGEN FROM THE AIR). > >Merritt Hey!...I just got a GREAT idea!...attach a generator to an electric motor...give 'er a spin and the damned thing will spin FOREVER!!...perpetual motion!!!...ain't I a fart smeller?... :) -- -Gord. (use gordon in email) > Merritt Mullen <mmullen8014@mchsi.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > electric motor...give 'er a spin and the damned thing will spin > FOREVER!!...perpetual motion!!!...ain't I a fart smeller?... :) Even better, sell the excess electricity to the electric utility and get rich in the process. Merritt >> Merritt Mullen <mmullen8014@mchsi.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Merritt Hot damn!...I'm there!... -- -Gord. (use gordon in email) |
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