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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / November 2005

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Doing some research...seatbelt interlock.

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Hachiroku - 30 Oct 2005 05:02 GMT
"After many of the delays that auto-makers love, on August 15, 1973,
Department of Transportation officials finally issued a new regulation
requiring ignition interlocks on all new cars. There was now no need for
airbags, so they dropped from the picture. During this two-year delay,
however, Congress member Louis Wyman (R-N.H.) was preparing an amendment
to the Motor Vehicle and School Bus Safety Act of 1974, which said,
"Federal safety standards may not require that any vehicles be equipped
with a safety belt interlock system." Some Hill staffers say Ford actually
wrote the amendment. With a well-timed push from auto lobbyists, the
amendment passed. The airbag and the ignition interlock were now both
dead, victims of one of the most brilliantly executed double fixes in the
history of lobbying."

____________________________________________________________

We note that our agency's previous experience with ignition interlocks
indicates that great care must be taken in requiring vehicle modifications
to induce higher belt use, to avoid consumer backlash. As of August 1973,
Standard No. 208 required all new cars to be equipped either with
automatic protection or an ignition interlock for both front outboard
seating positions. General Motors sold about ten thousand of its 1974
model year cars equipped with air bags that met the automatic protection
requirement. Every other 1974 model year car sold in the United States
came with an ignition interlock, which prevented the engine from operating
if either the driver or front seat outboard passenger failed to fasten
their manual seat belt.

   In a notice published in the Federal Register (39 FR 10272) on March
   19, 1974, we described the public reaction to the ignition interlock
   as follows: "Public resistance to the belt-starter interlock system .
   . . has been substantial, with current tallies of proper lap-shoulder
   belt usage on 1974 models running at or below the 60% level. Even that
   figure is probably optimistic as a measure of results to be achieved,
   in light of the likelihood that as time passes the awareness that the
   forcing systems can be disabled, and the means for doing so will
   become more widely disseminated. . . ."

   There were also speeches on the floor of both houses of Congress
   expressing the public's anger at the interlock requirement. On October
   27, 1974, President Ford signed into law a bill that prohibited any
   Federal motor vehicle safety standard from requiring or permitting as
   a means of compliance any seat belt interlock system. In response to
   this change in the law, we published a final rule in the Federal
   Register (39 FR 38380) on October 31, 1974 that deleted the interlock
   option from Standard No. 208 effective immediately.

________________________________________________________________

   DOT gave manufacturers a further choice for new vehicles manufactured
   between 1972 and August 1975. Manufacturers could either install a
   passive restraint device such as automatic seatbelts or airbags or
   retain manual belts and add an “ignition interlock” device that in
   effect forced occupants to buckle up by preventing the ignition
   otherwise from turning on. 37 Fed. Reg. 3911 (1972). The interlock
   soon became popular with manufacturers. And in 1974, when the agency
   approved the use of detachable automatic seatbelts, it conditioned
   that approval by providing that such systems must include an interlock
   system and a continuous warning buzzer to encourage reattachment of
   the belt. 39 Fed. Reg. 14593. But the interlock and buzzer devices
   were most unpopular with the public. And Congress, responding to
   public pressure, passed a law that forbade DOT from requiring, or
   permitting compliance by means of, such devices. Motor Vehicle and
   Schoolbus Safety Amendments of 1974, §109, 88 Stat. 1482 (previously
   codified at 15 U.S.C. § 1410b(b) (1988 ed.)).

so there...
Built_Well - 30 Oct 2005 06:55 GMT
[Chuckle.] I love how air bags are considered to be "automatic
protection" that satisfies the DOT standard.  In my lil ole
accident a month ago that took out my Tercel's front end, the
air bags stayed well rested in their compartments and did
not deploy.  Maybe I wasn't going fast enough--only 15 to 30 mph.  

Kinda hard to classify that as **Automatic** protection.

I always use the belt, except sometimes I'd wait
from 30 seconds to a minute until I was on the road to fasten
the belt.  Well the accident happened as I left the gas station
parking lot, not 30 seconds from turning the key.

We ought to bring back the interlocks.  Even the fools among us
deserve to live.  Thankfully my injuries were not major--a bump
on the forehead as the forehead hit the steering wheel an inch
above the left eye.  But it was the biggest jolt I've probably
ever had.  

Two weeks afterwards, the forehead bump was gone, but then my
left eye started feeling sore and occassionally blurring
my vision when I'd read a book or a computer screen.  Happy to
say the eye's back in good shape again.

I'm amazed at something.  That 1995 Tercel, even with
the front end demolished, still runs!  It won't pass inspection
at all--components like the battery are knocked maybe 6 inches
back, radiator tilted, engine may not be seated in the cradle
properly--may even be knocking up against the firewall.  Motor
mount may be broken.  BUT gosh darn it, THAT TERCEL STILL RUNS,
and runs VERY WELL.

And the only fluid leak resulting from the accident was the
windshield wiper fluid.

Looking forward to picking up the new Corolla when the dealer
gets it in a week, but my 1995 DX automatic 4-door Tercel
only has 33,000 miles on it--kind of a shame.  

Bring back those interlocks--and please don't wait 30 seconds
until you're on the road to fasten your belt, like foolish me.  
Do it before turning the key.

Apparently that's as close to "automatic" protection that
lobbyists will let us get.  I can say first hand
that air bags are far from being automatic.
Hachiroku - 30 Oct 2005 15:26 GMT
> [Chuckle.] I love how air bags are considered to be "automatic
> protection" that satisfies the DOT standard.  In my lil ole
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> lobbyists will let us get.  I can say first hand
> that air bags are far from being automatic.

DAMN! 33K on a '95?! Mine had 133 when I sold it, and ran like a champ!

Good for you, you're all right. Bet you'll be fastening the belt as soon
as you get in the car now!
Don Fearn - 30 Oct 2005 16:56 GMT
I coulda sworn Hachiroku <Trueno@ae86.gts> typ'd:

>Good for you, you're all right. Bet you'll be fastening the belt as soon
>as you get in the car now!

Smart people do. EVERY time they (we) drive in traffic.

I just don't want some $%^&ing interlock telling me I HAVE to. Or any
$%^&ing law either, for that matter. Even the $%^&ing seatbelt bleeper
gets disconnected on my vehicles.

-Don (glad to live where wearing a motorcycle helmet is my choice too)
Signature

"Ladies and gentlemen take my advice.
Pull down your pants and slide on the ice."

-- Sidney Freedman

Charles @ Kankakee - 30 Oct 2005 16:57 GMT
>> [Chuckle.] I love how air bags are considered to be "automatic
>> protection" that satisfies the DOT standard.  In my lil ole
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> Good for you, you're all right. Bet you'll be fastening the belt as soon
> as you get in the car now!

Bring back seat belt interlocks?  Does this guy need his mommy to wipe his
nose for him, too?  I thought being an adult meant you took responsibilty
for your own stuff, like fastening your own seatbelts?   It's bad enough
we've got airbags, so that any moment in a frontal crash we can have
Washington and all its hot air reproduced for us . . .

Charles
Built_Well - 30 Oct 2005 18:24 GMT
I'll ignore the rude comments from one poster.

By the way, I neglected to mention that the other driver
is perfectly fine--never injured because he was wearing
his seat belt, thankfully.

But I caused $2,700 damage to his SUV, the only claim ever
against my policy, which means things should have a happy
ending.

So did that service technician disable your Corolla's
interlocks without you even asking?  Kinda sounded that way.  

Wow, 1974--what a pivotal year.  So many unnecessary deaths and
injuries in the last 31 years because legislators succumbed
to industry puppeteers.  Hope I don't get sued for that--just a
guess or opinion on my part from reading the excerpts above.

But I'm glad to see it wasn't a court that ruled against the
interlocks--it was our "independent" legislators.
Scott in Florida - 30 Oct 2005 18:47 GMT
>I'll ignore the rude comments from one poster.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>But I'm glad to see it wasn't a court that ruled against the
>interlocks--it was our "independent" legislators.

gawd....someone was rude to ya?

In here?

You poor poor baby.....

ROFLMAO

Signature


Scott in Florida

Still Voting Democratic?

You are Stuck On Stupid!

Charles @ Kankakee - 30 Oct 2005 23:11 GMT
> I'll ignore the rude comments from one poster.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> But I'm glad to see it wasn't a court that ruled against the
> interlocks--it was our "independent" legislators.

Rude, my a.s!   I'm trying to make a point here and it completely missed
you.   Interlocks are for non-adults that can't take the time or the
responsibility to buckle their own seatbelts.  They are mental children,
wanting the nanny state to take care of all their needs for them.  They will
be the people that will vote for Hillary in 2008.

I am glad I never owned a 1974 vehicle.   I had to take driver's ed in one
and the interlock didn't work right half the time.

Charles
Ray O - 31 Oct 2005 00:02 GMT
> [Chuckle.] I love how air bags are considered to be "automatic
> protection" that satisfies the DOT standard.  In my lil ole
> accident a month ago that took out my Tercel's front end, the
> air bags stayed well rested in their compartments and did
> not deploy.  Maybe I wasn't going fast enough--only 15 to 30 mph.

If you were exiting a gas station when the accident occurred and you were
hit from the side or at an angle, the steering wheel air bag probably
wouldn't deploy because it is designed to protect in a frontal collision.
There are 3 air bag sensors - at least 2 have to sense rapid deceleration in
order for the air bag to deploy.

> Kinda hard to classify that as **Automatic** protection.

Auto manufacturers do not classify air bags as automatic protection.  That
is why they are referred to as a **supplemental** restraint system by
Toyota, supplemental inflatable restraints by GM, etc.  They are not
intended to replace seatbelts.  In fact, a properly worn seatbelt is
necessary to keep the person in position for the air bag to work.
Otherwise, the passenger can and often is ejected from the vehicle or the
air bag injures a properly positioned person.

> I always use the belt, except sometimes I'd wait
> from 30 seconds to a minute until I was on the road to fasten
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> lobbyists will let us get.  I can say first hand
> that air bags are far from being automatic.

Fortunately, it sounds like you were not severely injured and will now wear
the seatbelt before putting the car in motion.
Signature

Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

Built_Well - 31 Oct 2005 19:08 GMT
Some interesting tid-bits:

"Today, however, [about] 35 years
since the federal government required that all pas-
senger cars be equipped with seat belts, approxi-
mately one-quarter of U.S. drivers and front-seat
passengers are not buckling up."

[Yikers, that's a lot of people! One out of 4
aren't buckling up.]

Here's more support for interlocks--or at least the use
of loud reminding buzzers and internal strobe lights:

"Belt use rates in the
United States lag well behind the 90 to 95 percent
usage rates in Canada, Australia, and several north-
ern European countries."

"Properly used, seat belts can reduce the risk of
fatal injury for front-seat occupants by about 45
percent in cars and by about 60 percent in light
trucks driven as passenger vehicles"

[And that's just for Fatal injuries--I imagine
the percentage skyrockets for all injuries in
general, including serious injuries.]

Now the following is TRULY scary:

"Hard-core nonusers comprise approximately 4 per-
cent of drivers, but this same group has significantly
more traffic violations, higher crash involvement rates,
higher arrest rates, and higher rates of alcohol con-
sumption than those who buckle up all or part of the
time."

"Sixty percent of drivers in severe crashes were
reportedly not wearing seat belts. These nonusers pose
risks to themselves and to others and are therefore an
important audience to reach; however, reminder sys-
tems may not be effective."

    Sounds to me like the roads are really unsafe.

    I dunno.  If you ask me, it just makes sense that
a car shouldn't start if the belts aren't engaged.

    But at the very least, a really loud buzzer ought to
sound for *as long as the car is on*--not these whimpy
buzzers in use today.  And this intolerable buzzer should
remain on for the entire length of the car trip if the
driver isn't belted.  I'm guessing even somebody drunk outta
his gord couldn't ignore a loud, loud buzzer running for
even 10 minutes, let alone a whole 40-minute
drive.

    Oh well.

    1974--a year which will TRULY live in infamy.  I think
there's roughly 50,000 deaths on the road each year in the
U.S.   Multiply that figure by the 31 years that have passed

since 1974, and you come up with over 1-and-a-half MILLION deaths.  
That's more than 3 times the number of U.S. deaths suffered
in World War 2, in both the European and Far Eastern theaters.  

    Put another way, each year on the roads, we suffer about
half the deaths as the average number of yearly war deaths
sufferred during each year of World War Two (50,000 compared
to roughly 100,000).

    My gosh, we have a mini-Dubbya Dubbya Two on the roads
each and every year.  Someting really needs to be done--at least
the loud non-stop BUZZER system if not the interlocks.  I hope our
legislators start earning their $150,000 pay checks and do
something that counts, instead of cow-towing to Emperor Ford
or Fuhrer General Motors.  I'd be damn ashamed to be a Senator
or Representative.
Built_Well - 31 Oct 2005 19:23 GMT
Oh, did I say our Representatives and Senators earn
only about $150,000 each year?  I neglected to mention
that they also get about a million dollars each year
for office expenses.  Not many people know about the
extra $900,000 or million each Rep. and Senator gets
annually just to run an office.

    If any legislators happen to be reading--and I
doubt any are--probably getting BJ's from Congressional
pages (remember that scandal a few years back?), please
do something about these death machines that are killing
your fellow Americans at half the rate as World War 2.
Built_Well - 31 Oct 2005 19:30 GMT
My goodness, a Senator or Rep. can get a lot of
BJ's with all that office money.  Don't believe for
a second that all that cash is spent on office
supplies [Chuckle!]
Built_Well - 31 Oct 2005 20:13 GMT
Let me say that my allusions to World War 2, such
as "day of infamy," "Emperor Ford," and
"Fuhrer General Motors" were all in good fun and
satire.  I criticize my own government more than
anyone else's, as you can see from my
Congressional pay comments above.  

    I'm glad we're all friends now, American, Japanese,
German, etc.  That's the way it should be.  And nobody
makes better cars in the world than Toyota.
Hachiroku - 31 Oct 2005 22:07 GMT
> Let me say that my allusions to World War 2, such
> as "day of infamy," "Emperor Ford," and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> German, etc.  That's the way it should be.  And nobody
> makes better cars in the world than Toyota.

And you had a Tercel. I had a '95, 100,000 when I bought it, 130,000 when
I sold it 2.5 years later, and 45 MPG most of the way.
Built_Well - 01 Nov 2005 00:42 GMT
I just learned something awful.  Not only did
Congress's 1974 law forbid federal traffic safety
agencies like NHTSA from requiring that car
companies use seat belt interlocks, but

the law also forbade NHTSA from requiring manufacturers  
from even using buzzer warnings that
lasted more than 8 seconds!!  

    Now that's a true travesty!  

    8 SECONDS.

    I'm guessing _continuously_ sounding buzzers
would save thousands of lives annually, yet they
are still outlawed.  And they'd probably prevent
hundreds of thousands of injuries,

    From a recent paper by the TRB (Transportation
Research Board):

"[In 1974] Congress promptly enacted legislation
prohibiting NHTSA from requiring either ignition
interlocks or continuous buzzer warnings of more
than 8 seconds."

    Now that's true industry lobby evil--not even
letting buzzers do their job.  

"NHTSA then implemented the requirement of
a 4- to 8-second warning light and buzzer system
[that's all NHTSA could do] that is activated when
front seat belts are not fastened at the time of
ignition. This standard remains in effect [today]."
Scott in Florida - 01 Nov 2005 00:56 GMT
We have a young Communist here!

gawd...please go to Cuba or Russia...

>I just learned something awful.  Not only did
>Congress's 1974 law forbid federal traffic safety
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>     8 SECONDS.

What the hell is wrong with this....commie...

>     I'm guessing _continuously_ sounding buzzers
>would save thousands of lives annually, yet they
>are still outlawed.  And they'd probably prevent
>hundreds of thousands of injuries,

Oh the humanity of it all....

I can save the world from itself.

I'm a young Commie...

>     From a recent paper by the TRB (Transportation
>Research Board):
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>     Now that's true industry lobby evil--not even
>letting buzzers do their job.  

True Commie...crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh my god...

My head hurts.

Evil Industry....

ROFLMAO

>"NHTSA then implemented the requirement of
>a 4- to 8-second warning light and buzzer system
>[that's all NHTSA could do] that is activated when
>front seat belts are not fastened at the time of
>ignition. This standard remains in effect [today]."
Signature


Scott in Florida

Still Voting Democratic?

You are Stuck On Stupid!

Built_Well - 01 Nov 2005 01:07 GMT
Let me be the third to say that it's actually
"Canada *has* a military!"--not have

[chuckle]
Scott in Florida - 01 Nov 2005 01:11 GMT
>Let me be the third to say that it's actually
>"Canada *has* a military!"--not have
>
>[chuckle]

Does Canada have a military?

Signature


Scott in Florida

Still Voting Democratic?

You are Stuck On Stupid!

Gord Beaman - 01 Nov 2005 02:53 GMT
>>Let me be the third to say that it's actually
>>"Canada *has* a military!"--not have
>>
>>[chuckle]
>
>Does Canada have a military?

Hey Scottie, aren't you supposed to 'beep' when you back up like
that?

ROFLMAO!!!
<gasp><choke><snort>

You really are a funny guy!...

(...that's 'funny' as in 'odd' you know...)

Signature

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Built_Well - 05 Nov 2005 18:43 GMT
My left eye and forehead are still sore 6 weeks
after the accident--getting better but slowly.

    I understand what happened now.

    In __1974__ had New Hampshire
Congressman Louis Wyman not prevented the
highway safety administration  from requiring
car manufacturers
to use anything longer than a measley 8-second
MAXIMUM buzz time for safety belt warning buzzers,
I seriously doubt I would have been injured at
all __31 years__ later.

    And I'm sure that's true for millions upon
millions of others who have been injured, many
seriously, since '74.

    Louie's unsafe amendments to the '74 highway
safety bill not only prevented federal agencies
from requiring seat belt interlocks (the use of
which can be debated), but Louie's amendements also
limited agencies from requiring anything longer
than an 8-second seat belt Buzzer warning, still
in effect today.  In
other words, no continuous buzzer warnings.  I
don't think the utter badness of that idea can
be debated.  Why would industry lobbyists
not want continuous buzzers?  Any ideas?

    If _Continuous_ buzzers were around, I would
guess the very first thing almost everybody
would do upon entering a car is fasten the belts.
There would be no hesitation or wait time because
we would have quickly tired of that sound of the
continuous buzzer long ago.

    As mentioned, I always wear seat belts, but
sometimes I'd wait 30 seconds to a minute until I
was on the road to fasten it.  BIG Mistake as the
accident happend not 30 seconds after starting the
car and pulling out of the gas station parking lot.

    Thank you Representative Louis Wyman.  

    I see on Google that he died in 2002.  I'm
sure I'm speaking for millions when I say:

"Rest in peace, you spineless industry lap dog."

    I would recite some curse about your
children or grandchildren, but not being  
superstitious, I know that such a curse would
do no good.

    I might also say to Little Louie to "burn in
hell" but, again, not being superstitious I don't
believe in heaven and hell.

    The law has to be changed to at least
require continuous buzzers, if not interlocks.

    Okie, now on to happier things.
Mike Hunter - 06 Nov 2005 22:31 GMT
It was not the industry that killed off seatbelt interlocks, it was the
constituents of those in Congress that screamed and hollered to have that
regulation rescinded   LOL

Ford and Toyota vehicles continue to sound the 'no belt' warning again every
so often,  in any event.  Ford and GM sound an alarm if one neglects to turn
off a turn signal after a while, as well.

mike hunt

> My left eye and forehead are still sore 6 weeks
> after the accident--getting better but slowly.
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>
>     Okie, now on to happier things.
Don Fearn - 06 Nov 2005 23:12 GMT
I coulda sworn "Built_Well" <built@built9.com> typ'd:

>     If _Continuous_ buzzers were around, I would
>guess the very first thing almost everybody
>would do upon entering a car is fasten the belts.
>There would be no hesitation or wait time because
>we would have quickly tired of that sound of the
>continuous buzzer long ago.

No, you're WRONG about that. The FIRST thing I did was DISCONNECT the
$%^&ing thing! I don't NEED a nanny telling me what to do; I have a
BRAIN and I can figure that out for myself.

>     As mentioned, I always wear seat belts, but
>sometimes I'd wait 30 seconds to a minute until I
>was on the road to fasten it.  BIG Mistake as the
>accident happend not 30 seconds after starting the
>car and pulling out of the gas station parking lot.

If you think that you don't need seatbelts as SOON as you are in
traffic, then you're an idiot. Crashes can happen ANY time. I taught
my kids from day one that they had to have their seatbelts on as soon
as we were at the end of the driveway. They still wear seatbelts EVERY
time they're in traffic, as do I.

BUT none of us NEEDS a nanny buzzer telling us when we need to put on
a seatbelt. Each of us can use a BRAIN to figure that out.

If you can't, you are TOO ST00PID to be driving!!

-Don

Signature

"Ladies and gentlemen take my advice.
Pull down your pants and slide on the ice."

-- Sidney Freedman

Built_Well - 07 Nov 2005 00:23 GMT
> BUT none of us NEEDS a nanny buzzer telling us when we need to put on a
> seatbelt. Each of us can use a BRAIN to figure that out.

    Apparently one-fourth of the driving population needs a buzzer:

    Quote from a recent study:

    "Today, however, [about] 35 years
since the federal government required that all
passenger cars be equipped with seat belts,
approximately one-quarter of U.S. drivers and
front-seat passengers are not buckling up."

And these millions of unbuckled drivers pose a danger to you as well as
themselves.
Don Fearn - 07 Nov 2005 01:17 GMT
I coulda sworn "Built_Well" <built_well@bbbbb.com> typ'd:

>> BUT none of us NEEDS a nanny buzzer telling us when we need to put on a
>> seatbelt. Each of us can use a BRAIN to figure that out.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>And these millions of unbuckled drivers pose a danger to you as well as
>themselves.

To me??

In what way???

Unbelted drivers die more often in crashes. That means less time in
intensive care units, and therefore less cost for me.....
Signature

"Ladies and gentlemen take my advice.
Pull down your pants and slide on the ice."

-- Sidney Freedman

Brian Gordon - 07 Nov 2005 01:52 GMT
>I coulda sworn "Built_Well" <built_well@bbbbb.com> typ'd:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>Unbelted drivers die more often in crashes. That means less time in
>intensive care units, and therefore less cost for me.....

But, all too often, an unbelted driver in a crash finds himself through the
windshield or on the wrong side of the passenger compartment, so the car is
totally out of control.  THAT is a danger to me.
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Gord Beaman - 07 Nov 2005 02:50 GMT


>But, all too often, an unbelted driver in a crash finds himself through the
>windshield or on the wrong side of the passenger compartment, so the car is
>totally out of control.  THAT is a danger to me.

Nah...common sense says that if the crash was severe enough to
put the driver through the w/s or in the other seat then the car
ain't going anywhere anyway and can't be controlled anyway.
Signature


-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Greg - 07 Nov 2005 02:19 GMT
>> BUT none of us NEEDS a nanny buzzer telling us when we need to put on a
>> seatbelt. Each of us can use a BRAIN to figure that out.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> And these millions of unbuckled drivers pose a danger to you as well as
> themselves.

Not to mention all of the unbuckled passengers in the rear seats.

Greg.
Gord Beaman - 07 Nov 2005 02:45 GMT
"Built_Well" <built_well@bbbbb.com> wrote

>And these millions of unbuckled drivers pose a danger to you as well as
>themselves.

While I'm firmly 'for' all forms of safety devices (especially
those which protect the OTHER vehicle occupants) I don't really
see the sense in seatbelt laws...how do seatbelts protect the
people in OTHER vehicles?...I think that aspect could be handled
much better by insurance companies...no pay-out to drivers who
have an accident when it's apparent that they weren't belted up.
Simple.
Signature


-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Scott in Florida - 07 Nov 2005 12:45 GMT
>.how do seatbelts protect the
>people in OTHER vehicles?

Pretty simple...really.

If you are belted in....you will stay behind the wheel and
may be able to control you car enough to avoid an accident.

Signature


Scott in Florida

Gord Beaman - 07 Nov 2005 18:01 GMT
>>.how do seatbelts protect the
>>people in OTHER vehicles?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>If you are belted in....you will stay behind the wheel and
>may be able to control you car enough to avoid an accident.

Nah...any impact big enough to remove you from the driver's seat
will pretty much render the car uncontrollable.
Signature


-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Scott in Florida - 07 Nov 2005 18:45 GMT
>>>.how do seatbelts protect the
>>>people in OTHER vehicles?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Nah...any impact big enough to remove you from the driver's seat
>will pretty much render the car uncontrollable.

BEFORE the impact....

BEFORE.......

Signature


Scott in Florida

Greg - 07 Nov 2005 20:53 GMT
>>>.how do seatbelts protect the
>>>people in OTHER vehicles?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Nah...any impact big enough to remove you from the driver's seat
> will pretty much render the car uncontrollable.

I taught my 5 year old son a lesson last night. He unbuckled his belt as we
were pulling into the driveway at home, I tapped on the brakes from about
5-10kmh. He flew off the seat, and got a blood nose and cut lip from the
dash.
I think (hope) he now understands that when he's in the car - the belt is
on.

Greg.
Gord Beaman - 08 Nov 2005 04:01 GMT
>>>>.how do seatbelts protect the
>>>>people in OTHER vehicles?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Greg.

Yeh...he's a tiny tot with nothing to hold him in his
seat...you're a fully grown adult with both feet on the floor and
a steering wheel to hold onto...it would take quite an impact to
remove -you- from under the wheel...I'd think the size of such an
impact would likely render the vehicle uncontrollable anyway...
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Gord Beaman - 07 Nov 2005 02:37 GMT
snip

>If you think that you don't need seatbelts as SOON as you are in
>traffic, then you're an idiot. Crashes can happen ANY time. I taught
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>-Don

Don, don't you feel the least bit foolish with that extremely
foolish statement above?...by your admission it's kinda apparent
that some drivers indeed DO need a 'nanny buzzer'...you might try
making a little more sense next post...
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Don Fearn - 07 Nov 2005 02:56 GMT
I coulda sworn Gord Beaman <gord@islandtelecom.com> typ'd:

> snip
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Don, don't you feel the least bit foolish with that extremely
>foolish statement above?...

You mean posting to alt.autos.toyota? Yeah, it is a little foolish,
innit?

>by your admission it's kinda apparent
>that some drivers indeed DO need a 'nanny buzzer'...you might try
>making a little more sense next post...

I've never claimed to make sense -- not here. not any other newsgroup
I've ever posted to . . . . .

-D
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"Ladies and gentlemen take my advice.
Pull down your pants and slide on the ice."

-- Sidney Freedman

Ray O - 07 Nov 2005 03:34 GMT
> My left eye and forehead are still sore 6 weeks
> after the accident--getting better but slowly.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> than an 8-second seat belt Buzzer warning, still
> in effect today.

Too bad former Congressman Lyman passed away in 2002.  You could have
written to him to tell him that it was his fault that you did not buckle
your seat belt and got injured as a result.

I have not seen any studies of how many people bypass ignition interlocks
and buzzers, but from what I have seen, people who do not want to wear seat
belts just buckle them behind them to get around the interlocks and buzzers.

If it is any solace to you, there is a light on the dashboard that continues
to flash if you do not buckle your seat when the car is started.   Of
course, you would have to occasionally look at the instruments to notice,
like when you scan the instrument panel to make sure that all warning lights
are off after starting the engine.  If you cannot remember to fasten your
seatbelt before putting the vehicle in motion, you can ask someone to wire a
buzzer into the warning light circuit.

Also, several states have a mandatory seat belt law as a further incentive
to buckle your seat belt prior to putting the vehicle in motion.

 In
> other words, no continuous buzzer warnings.  I
> don't think the utter badness of that idea can
> be debated.  Why would industry lobbyists
> not want continuous buzzers?  Any ideas?

Auto industry lobbyists would not want continuous buzzers because auto
manufacturers do not want them.  Auto manufacturers do not want them because
by and large, the buying public does not want them.

>     If _Continuous_ buzzers were around, I would
> guess the very first thing almost everybody
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> accident happend not 30 seconds after starting the
> car and pulling out of the gas station parking lot.

Many accidents happen while people are pulling out of driveways and side
streets, as you have discovered.  That is why people who take driver's
education are taught to fasten their seat belts BEFORE they put the car in
motion, every time.
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Brent Secombe - 07 Nov 2005 04:50 GMT
...
> >     As mentioned, I always wear seat belts, but
> > sometimes I'd wait 30 seconds to a minute until I
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> education are taught to fasten their seat belts BEFORE they put the car in
> motion, every time.

I bet I'm not alone in this: getting out to lower the garage door when
leaving home, I'm often surprised to find I'd already fastened the
seatbelt while in the garage.

Brent
Ray O - 07 Nov 2005 05:40 GMT
> ...
>> >     As mentioned, I always wear seat belts, but
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Brent

Brent,

We were with friends the other day, talking about "the good old days"  and
my wife was saying "remember when we had to get out of the car to open and
close the garage door?"  I was thinking that there probably are not very
many garages without openers these days.

I don't like to let the car idle unnecessarily and so I have always buckled
the seat belt and made sure all passengers are buckled before starting the
engine.  It is a habit that I do not vary from so at least for me, buzzers
and interlocks are unnecessary.
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Built_Well - 07 Nov 2005 20:19 GMT
Ray O wrote:

> Auto industry lobbyists would not want continuous buzzers
> because auto manufacturers do not want them.  Auto manufacturers
> do not want them because by and large, the buying public does
> not want them.

   Ray O, thank you for your comments.  There's one
thing I disagree with you on, though.  I'm not so trusting
of Boardroom Motives to think that car manufacturers did
not want continuous buzzers in 1974 because the public
did not want them.

    One look at the Ford Pinto case shows that board
members are coldly calculating.  

    Executive thought, you probably know, ran something
like this:

    "Well, if it costs more for us to fix the Pinto's
gas tanks than pay out the jury awards to
victim's families, then just pay out the awards."

    I'd really like to know the real reasons behind
the industry's apparent squashing of Continuous buzzers
back in '74.
Ray O - 07 Nov 2005 23:58 GMT
> Ray O wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>    Ray O, thank you for your comments.

You're welcome!

There's one
> thing I disagree with you on, though.  I'm not so trusting
> of Boardroom Motives to think that car manufacturers did
> not want continuous buzzers in 1974 because the public
> did not want them.

Although I was not a member of the board of an automotive manufacturer, I
did work for an auto manufacturer for almost 15 years and have a pretty fair
idea of how features and options are incorporated into vehicles.

As is true when selling just about any product, the companies that succeed
do so because they are selling a product that the public wants.  Take a
moment and think about options and features that are popular in vehicles
today - AC, keyless entry and security systems, cruise control, power door
locks, power windows, GPS map systems, leather seating, CD players, etc.
Absent government controls, auto manufacturers will include or exclude
features based on what consumers want.  If the public wanted continuous seat
belt buzzers in their cars and trucks and saw that as a desireable feature
and were willing to pay for it, there is absolutely no logical reason why an
auto manufacturer wouldn't include it.

Think about the "talking cars" of the 1970's with a female voice that would
tell you that the door was ajar or your seat belt was unfastened.  They are
gone today because people didn't like that feature.

>     One look at the Ford Pinto case shows that board
> members are coldly calculating.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> gas tanks than pay out the jury awards to
> victim's families, then just pay out the awards."

Using the Pinto as an example is notr a valid one.

When the Pinto was designed and produced, I believe its fuel tank
construction and placement were in keeping with practices for many auto
manufacturers at that time, where the fuel tank is an integral part of the
vehicle's structure.  I did not study the Pinto's actual design, NHTSA
records, and court records so I am not in a position to comment on whether
the design was actually deficient.

Many safety improvements come as a result of landmark cases, unforseen
accidents, cost/benefit analysis, and state of the art at the time.

Look at a 1950's car and you will see that there have been tremendous
advances in vehicular safety.  Your comment above implies that auto makers
have an obligation to bring everything they have ever sold up to current
state of the art in order to protect accident victims.  If that were the
case, a '53 Chevy would need lap and shoulder belts, door side intrusion
beams, front and rear crumple zone modifications, break away engine and
transmission mounts, reinforced firewall, padded instrument and knee panel,
front and side air bags, ABS, traction control, stabiolity control, all
wheel drive, collapsible steering column, laser cruise control, fuel cells,
on-board fire supression systems, roll bars, and more.

Did you know that hospitals treat more people with injuries to their lower
extremities from  front end collisions than 20 years ago?  An uninformed
observer would blame the auto industry for not doing enough to save peoples'
legs.

An informed observer will point out that more people survive front end
collissions than 20 years ago, and what used to be a fatal accident now
results in a victim with injuries to their lower extremities.  There were no
statistics for how many corpses had broken legs but there are statistics for
the type of injuries from auto accidents.  By the way, most automakers are
working on footwell protection without having to compromise the overall
structural integrity of the vehicle.  That is why you are beginning to see
knee bolsters and air bags being offered.

>     I'd really like to know the real reasons behind
> the industry's apparent squashing of Continuous buzzers
> back in '74.

The real reason may not be the one you would like to hear or believe, but
most people do not want them and believe that they are responsible enough to
fasten their seatbelts before putting the vehicle in motion and will take
responsibility for not doing so if they do not.
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Gord Beaman - 08 Nov 2005 04:22 GMT
snip of much good info

>The real reason may not be the one you would like to hear or believe, but
>most people do not want them and believe that they are responsible enough to
>fasten their seatbelts before putting the vehicle in motion and will take
>responsibility for not doing so if they do not.

I still think that seatbelt use should not be legislated...it
should be widely taught and then left up to the insurers to
enforce by refusing to pay when it can be proven that belts were
not worn during a crash.

My reasons are that belt wearing does nothing to protect 'other
vehicle' occupants and therefore is your own responsibility. IMO

One needs to do all that's possible (including being forced by
law) to ensure that you don't cause injury to OTHERS...you have
no right to do that...if you wanna write yourself off by stupidly
sitting on your belts etc then 'fill yer boots'...You're merely
improving the driver gene pool after all...
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Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 06:08 GMT
> snip of much good info
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> sitting on your belts etc then 'fill yer boots'...You're merely
> improving the driver gene pool after all...

The Massachusetts State Police had a very informative demonstration at auto
shows several years back.  It was basically a passenger car seat and seat
belt mounted on rails about 10 feet long that were raised at one end.
Participants went up a few stairs, sat in the seat, and fastened the seat
belt.  The seat was released and rolled down the track and came to an abrupt
halt at the end of the rails to simulate a 5 MPH crash.  The people waiting
in line and watching could see the passenger get thrown against the seat
belt and the participants can feel themselves thrown against the seat belt.
It convinced a lot of non-believers to always wear their seat belts!
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Hachiroku - 08 Nov 2005 13:02 GMT
>> snip of much good info
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> belt and the participants can feel themselves thrown against the seat belt.
> It convinced a lot of non-believers to always wear their seat belts!

They still have that thing and bring it to county fairs.
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 16:57 GMT
>>> snip of much good info
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> They still have that thing and bring it to county fairs.

Have you ever taken a ride on it?  It's a blast!
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Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 17:23 GMT
"Louis Wyman"--a name that should go down in history
with the likes of "Benedict Arnold" and other infamous names.

    "He did a Wyman on the public."  

    "He Wyman'ed us."

    In response to your comment, were Louie still with us,
I wouldn't write a letter.  I would probably organize
a  _Peaceful_  protest outside his local New Hampshire
Congressional offices, and invite the news media.  

    I'm guessing, at a minimum, 50 or 60 accident survivors
would show up.  But there's always a chance hundreds might
appear, because Little Louie's unsafe amendments to the
highway safety bill are responsible for millions
of serious injuries since 1974, and many, many deaths.  

The 8-SECOND ABSURDITY.

    Lil Louie effectively tied safety agencies' arms
behind their backs for 30 years.

    If I were a believer in heaven and hell, and all
that religious superstitious stuff (today's religion
is tomorrow's mythology, after all), I'd be confident
Mr. Louis Wyman is burning in "Hades."
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 18:04 GMT
> "Louis Wyman"--a name that should go down in history
> with the likes of "Benedict Arnold" and other infamous names.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> is tomorrow's mythology, after all), I'd be confident
> Mr. Louis Wyman is burning in "Hades."

You are assuming that former Congressman Lyman was bowing to the desires of
the auto industry.  I don't know if that assumption is correct or valid
because there are no auto manufacturers or factories located in New
Hampshire so auto manufacturers are not his constituents.

Perhaps he figured that if one was not in the habit of automatically
fastening their seat belt AND an 8 second audible reminder AND a
continuously flashing reminder in the instrument panel was not enough to get
that person to fasten the seat belts, and, rather than taking responsibility
for their action or inaction, that person blames someone else, it might be
beneficial if that person were removed from the gene pool.

Or, perhaps we should have a big government that protects people from
injuring themselves.  By banning the sale of candles, we can prevent
thousands of house fires and injuries each year.  By banning the sale of all
instruments with a blade longer than 1/2 inch, including hunting, fishing,
and kitchen knives, letter openers, screwdrivers, scissors, chisels, tent
stakes, nails, screws, etc., we can eliminate thousands of cuts, pokes, and
stabbings every year.  Banning bathtubs, hot tubs, pools, swimming, and
boating would prevent thousands of drowning deaths each year.  Banning
stairs in homes and public places would prevent people from falling down
stairs.   There should be a government curfew whenever there is extreme
weather predicted, like thunderstorms, extreme heat, or extreme cold so we
can prevent weather related deaths.  If prescription medication were
dispensed from the pharmacy one dose at a time, then overdoses could be
prevented.  If we can get all of this accomplished, we may be able to
prevent people from hurting themselves.

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Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 18:17 GMT
The following refers to the pivotal 1970's in car safety
legislation and comes from the September/October issue of
"Mother Jones" Magazine, a great publication:

"However, according to Ford, airbags will add anywhere from
$100 to $400 to the cost of every auto. The company
argues, probably correctly, that the auto buyers would prefer
to pay less and take their chances. But the vehemently anti-airbag
Ford wasn't willing to take its chances with the Department of
Transportation even when it was loaded with pro-auto Republicans.
So Ford introduced a crafty little system called the ignition
interlock. The ignition interlock will not allow a driver to start
the car until the front seat passengers are buckled up. The ignition
interlock was a sensible compromise. The rationale was that if drivers
were forced to use seat belts there would be no need for airbags, which
is true enough. In late 1970, Henry Ford II sold Chrysler president Lynn
Townsend on the idea and convinced him they could sell it together
in Washington.

A Nixon aide set up a meeting between Ford, Chrysler's Townsend and
Nixon to discuss "matters related to the automotive industry." A few
days after the meeting, John Ehrlichman called a meeting with
Transportation Secretary John Volpe. After the meeting Volpe was
heard to remark "The airbag's in trouble." Soon after, Henry
Ford II contributed nearly $50,000 toward Nixon's re-election campaign.

After many of the delays that auto-makers love, on August 15, 1973,
Department of Transportation officials finally issued a new regulation
requiring ignition interlocks on all new cars. There was now no need
for airbags, so they dropped from the picture. During this two-year
delay, however, Congress member Louis Wyman (R-N.H.) was preparing
an amendment to the Motor Vehicle and School Bus Safety Act of 1974,
which said, "Federal safety standards may not require that any
vehicles be equipped with a safety belt interlock system." Some Hill
staffers say Ford actually wrote the amendment. With a well-timed push
from auto lobbyists, the amendment passed. The airbag and the ignition
interlock were now both dead, victims of one of the most brilliantly
executed double fixes in the history of lobbying.

[Thank you Hachiroku, for providing the paragraph that started the
thread.]
Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 18:30 GMT
Incidentally, my air bag did not come out, though if you
looked at the severely damaged front end of my car, you would
think it would have.  And certainly my forehead and left eye say
the bag should have deployed.

    Obviously air bags are not enough.  They don't always
work.
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 20:22 GMT
> Incidentally, my air bag did not come out, though if you
> looked at the severely damaged front end of my car, you would
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>     Obviously air bags are not enough.  They don't always
> work.

You are correct - air bags are not enough and are not intended to be enough.
That is why they are called SUPPLEMENTAL restraint systems and that is why
the warning on the visor that is there continuously tells you to fasten your
seat belts.

Your comment that the airbag should have deployed because you suffered an
injury is one that many, if not most, people make when they suffer an injury
in a situation where the air bag has not deployed.  This stems from a
misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of how air bags function.

The steering wheel and passenger dashboard airbags are not designed to
deploy in every situation.

Several parameters must be met before they will deploy.  There are 3 sensors
that sense the rate of deceleration, and at least 2 must detect crash
conditions.  This prevents air bag deployment in non-crash conditions.

The point of impact has to be within a certain range of a head-on collision.
If the vehicle is hit from the side or rear, the front air bags will not
deploy because the forces are lateral.  Side air bags and side curtain air
bags are designed for side impacts.

There is a vehicle speed threshold that must be passed before the air bags
deploy.  Air bags are not designed to deploy in a 5 MPH accident because a
properly belted occupant should easily survive an accident at that low speed
without airbag deployment, and such a low threshold would cause many false
deployments.

Most people do not realize that air bags provide little or no protection
without a properly fastened seat belt, and in fact may cause more severe
injury or death without seat belts.  The seat belts keep the occupant in a
position where the air bag's cushion will do some good.  Without seat belts,
occupants can be ejected from the vehicle, pushed down into the footwell, or
pushed over the steering wheel through the windshield.

It sounds like you were fortunate and did not suffer a life-threatening
injury.
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Mike Hunter - 08 Nov 2005 20:40 GMT
The SRS system is designed to deploy in a frontal collision at a specific
speed, depending on the number of sensor triggered, and whether or not  the
saffing senor is engaged by the hydraulic system.

mike hunt

> Incidentally, my air bag did not come out, though if you
> looked at the severely damaged front end of my car, you would
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>     Obviously air bags are not enough.  They don't always
> work.
Gord Beaman - 09 Nov 2005 02:21 GMT
>The SRS system is designed to deploy in a frontal collision at a specific
>speed, depending on the number of sensor triggered, and whether or not  the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>     Obviously air bags are not enough.  They don't always
>> work.

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Gord Beaman - 09 Nov 2005 03:13 GMT
>The SRS system is designed to deploy in a frontal collision at a specific
>speed, depending on the number of sensor triggered, and whether or not  the
>saffing senor is engaged by the hydraulic system.
>
>mike hunt

Mike, what's this 'saffing senor' (I assume you mean safing
sensor?)...what's that all about?..and what hydraulic system?...
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Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 19:18 GMT
I fully acknowledge that I'm responsible for not having
put on my seat belt before starting the car.  I think I said
so about a week ago.  

    The car manufacturers are also responsible, however.  
They have a responsibility to let you know of the extreme danger
involved in rolling 3 thousand pounds of metal down the road.

    And a simple 8-second warning buzzer does not adequately
warn you of that HUGE danger.  A Continuous buzzer, however, would.

    Like I mentioned, I *always* use the belt, but on occasion
would wait 30 seconds to a minute until I was on the road before
fastening it.  

    Of course that's dangerous--and a continuous buzzer
would not let you forget how dangerous.
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 20:41 GMT
>I fully acknowledge that I'm responsible for not having
> put on my seat belt before starting the car.  I think I said
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> They have a responsibility to let you know of the extreme danger
> involved in rolling 3 thousand pounds of metal down the road.

The car manufacturers post warnings about seat belts in the owner's manual
an on the visor.  The warning on the visor is permanent and is always there.
I suspect that people ingore it because it is always there and just becomes
a part of the surroundings.

>     And a simple 8-second warning buzzer does not adequately
> warn you of that HUGE danger.  A Continuous buzzer, however, would.

I suspect that a continious buzzer would also just become part of the
surroundings.  If people cannot be trusted to protect themselves from
themselves, then IMO, a morre effective warning would be to mute the audio
system and jam all cell phone calls unless the seat belts are fastened ;-)

>     Like I mentioned, I *always* use the belt, but on occasion
> would wait 30 seconds to a minute until I was on the road before
> fastening it.
>
>     Of course that's dangerous--and a continuous buzzer
> would not let you forget how dangerous.

I understand.  It's kind of like waiting 30 seconds to a minute after
starting intercourse before putting on a condom.   That's too late and
dangerous so people need an intercourse detector and continuous buzzer on
the condom wrapper to distract them so they won't begin intercourse without
the condom.
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Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 20:03 GMT
My goodness.  Wyman, Nixon, and Henry Ford the Second.  

Did I forget to mention Darth Vader? [chuckle]

    What a rogue's gallery.

    Don't Get Wyman'ed!  Use your belt.
Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 21:05 GMT
Well, lookee there.  Judging from the above article
written in 1977, Henry Ford The-Second used the promise of
installing interlocks to kill off air bags.  Then he
apparently used his henchman Wyman to kill off
interlocks shortly afterwards!  

    Wyman equals "Boba Fett"?
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 21:26 GMT
> Well, lookee there.  Judging from the above article
> written in 1977, Henry Ford The-Second used the promise of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>     Wyman equals "Boba Fett"?

Air bags have been killed off?

Check out Richard Nixon's presidential time line
http://www.nvr.org/pres_content.php?pro=pres&sec=timeline&subsec=5

During the last 3 years of his presidency, Nixon must have been a time
manager extraordinaire because it looked like Nixon was fairly busy, with
things like the withdrawal from Viet Nam, the Arab oil embargo, Agnew's
resignation, looking for a new VP, and of course, Watergate and its
aftermath and still have time to work on getting seat belt interlocks
installed.

By the way, if you would like to install a continuously operating buzzer or
warning chime, you may wish to visit an audio shop and ask them to link one
to the warning light in the instrument panel.  It is an easy job an would
provide the warning you seek.

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Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 21:45 GMT
Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off
forever--but he sure tried apparently.  The
preceding Mother Jones article was written in 1977.
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 22:09 GMT
> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off
> forever--but he sure tried apparently.  The
> preceding Mother Jones article was written in 1977.

I'm sure that Mother Jones writers could teach all these respected
investigative journalists, conservative politicians, and automotive
engineers and executives many lessons in accurate investigative journalism,
unbiased reporting, and automotive engineering.  Where do they sign up?
Seat belt interlocks and buzzers have to be a good idea if Mother Jones says
so.
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Scott in Florida - 08 Nov 2005 22:50 GMT
>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off
>> forever--but he sure tried apparently.  The
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Seat belt interlocks and buzzers have to be a good idea if Mother Jones says
>so.

LOL....your tongue is sticking thru your cheek....LOL

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Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 23:03 GMT
>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off
>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently.  The
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> LOL....your tongue is sticking thru your cheek....LOL

It's that obvious?
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Scott in Florida - 08 Nov 2005 23:31 GMT
>>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off
>>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently.  The
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>It's that obvious?

Yes....LOL

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Scott in Florida

Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 23:43 GMT
>>>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off
>>>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently.  The
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Yes....LOL

Gotta work on my Oriental subtlety and obtuseness.
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Scott in Florida - 08 Nov 2005 23:55 GMT
>>>>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off
>>>>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently.  The
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Gotta work on my Oriental subtlety and obtuseness.

Nah...it is just fine....

LOL

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Scott in Florida

Ray O - 09 Nov 2005 00:04 GMT
>>>>>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off
>>>>>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently.  The
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> LOL

Thanks!
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Scott in Florida - 09 Nov 2005 00:38 GMT
>>>>>>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off
>>>>>>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently.  The
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
>Thanks!

ur welcome.....

Does your cheek hurt?

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Scott in Florida

Ray O - 09 Nov 2005 00:56 GMT
>>>>>>>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off
>>>>>>>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently.  The
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Does your cheek hurt?

LOL, Naw, it gets plenty of exercise!
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Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 23:13 GMT
Wyman --> I suppose that's pronounced "Why Man?"

"Why, man?"

That's a question I would have asked of Mister Wy-Man.

Why did you sell out your fellow human beings?

    Millions severely injured since 1974 because of
Mister Why-Man's legislation.
Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 23:32 GMT
Wyman--A name that should live in infamy.

    October 27, 1974--a date that will live in
infamy.

    Everything changed on that day.  Millions
sentenced to death and injury on the roads for
generations to come.
Scott in Florida - 08 Nov 2005 23:34 GMT
>Wyman--A name that should live in infamy.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>sentenced to death and injury on the roads for
>generations to come.

Oh My God....the horror of it all....

How in hell did any of us live?

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Scott in Florida

Built_Well - 09 Nov 2005 00:08 GMT
Incidentally, "Mother Jones" is a highly respected and
journalistically rigorous publication.  Go to any public
library and you'll find it there, and certainly any university
library.

    The name comes from a social activist named Jones.
Scott in Florida - 09 Nov 2005 00:43 GMT
>Incidentally, "Mother Jones" is a highly respected and
>journalistically rigorous publication.  Go to any public
>library and you'll find it there, and certainly any university
>library.
>
>     The name comes from a social activist named Jones.

Oh?  Highly respected?

Just looked at the home page...and came up with this tripe...

Cheney's Torture Kick

Dick Cheney is truly insane. The vice-president is now off making
impassioned pleas in defense of torture:
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Scott in Florida

Ray O - 09 Nov 2005 01:01 GMT
>>Incidentally, "Mother Jones" is a highly respected and
>>journalistically rigorous publication.  Go to any public
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Dick Cheney is truly insane. The vice-president is now off making
> impassioned pleas in defense of torture:

I looked up the magazine and web page too.   "Mother" Jones had nothing to
do with the not for profit agency that publishes the magazine.

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Ray O
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Hachiroku - 09 Nov 2005 01:13 GMT
> Incidentally, "Mother Jones" is a highly respected and
> journalistically rigorous publication.  Go to any public
> library and you'll find it there, and certainly any university
> library.
>
>      The name comes from a social activist named Jones.

Yeah..I remember seeing it and attempting to read it. Even when I was
Liberal I couldn't take it...just too Off The Shelf for me.

I don't take radicalism in either direction.
Built_Well - 09 Nov 2005 00:20 GMT
Mary Harris (Mother) Jones: c. 1837-1930

"Who was "Mother Jones"?
"According to a West Virginia District Attorney named Reese
Blizzard, Mother Jones was "the most dangerous woman in
America". According to Clarence Darrow, she was "one of the
most forceful and picturesque figures of the American
labor movement".

Born about 1837, in County Cork, Ireland, her family
emigrated to Toronto, Canada, when she was a child. She
trained to be a teacher at Toronto Normal School from
1858-1859, and worked briefly as a teacher and as a
dressmaker. In 1861, Mary Harris married George Jones,
an iron molder and union organizer, in Memphis, Tennessee.

The couple had four children - but all four children, and
Mary's husband, died in the yellow fever epidemic of 1867.
Mary Jones returned to Chicago, where she worked as a
dressmaker until her shop was destroyed in the Chicago
fire of 1871.

During the next few years, "Mother" Jones became increasingly
active in the union movement. Her life is...."
Ray O - 09 Nov 2005 00:53 GMT
> Mary Harris (Mother) Jones: c. 1837-1930
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> During the next few years, "Mother" Jones became increasingly
> active in the union movement. Her life is...."

"Mother" Jones was undoubtedly a fine woman who helped many people improve
the quality of their lives.  That has nothing to do with the accuracy of a
story that is published 47 years after her death.
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Ray O
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Built_Well - 09 Nov 2005 00:25 GMT
Mother Jones is in heaven.

    Louis Wyman is in hell.

[laughter]
Built_Well - 09 Nov 2005 00:53 GMT
There's also an article on the MotherJones.com
home page called

"The Lie Factory: How Bush Fabricated the Case for War"

    I'll tell you this.  Dubya is a good liar.  I
actually believed for a while that *he* believed there
were weapons of mass destruction.

    As good a liar as Dubya is, he's an even better
thief, having stolen two elections with the help of
brudda Jeb in Florida, who probably dumped lotsa
election ballots in the Gulf of Mexico, so to speak.
Scott in Florida - 09 Nov 2005 01:09 GMT
>There's also an article on the MotherJones.com
>home page called
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>brudda Jeb in Florida, who probably dumped lotsa
>election ballots in the Gulf of Mexico, so to speak.

ROFLMAO.....

Bush lied?

ROFLMAO

Not in this lifetime...

Stole two elections?

From Demorats?

He didn't even have to show up to win against those losers!

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Scott in Florida

Built_Well - 09 Nov 2005 02:03 GMT
Hmm, I think I wasn't wearing my belt at the time
of the accident, but I'm just assuming that because head
hit steering wheel.  

    However, it's possible I was wearing the belt, and
it just didn't work.  I really can't recall.  

    How often to belts fail?  Are there certain conditions
in which belts are more likely to fail--for example a
belt that has a twist or two in it?

    Thanks.
Ray O - 09 Nov 2005 04:56 GMT
> Hmm, I think I wasn't wearing my belt at the time
> of the accident, but I'm just assuming that because head
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>     Thanks.

I have never seen a seat belt fail that is properly fastened and has not
been modified or damaged.  I am defining "fail" as not functioning as
designed.   Seatbelts do have some stretch designed in and if the belt is
pulled out for some reason, like if the wearer is reaching forward at the
time of impact, it may not keep you from striking something.

A twist or two in the belt will not cause it to fail but it might give you a
bruise where the twist is.

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