Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / November 2005
Doing some research...seatbelt interlock.
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Hachiroku - 30 Oct 2005 05:02 GMT "After many of the delays that auto-makers love, on August 15, 1973, Department of Transportation officials finally issued a new regulation requiring ignition interlocks on all new cars. There was now no need for airbags, so they dropped from the picture. During this two-year delay, however, Congress member Louis Wyman (R-N.H.) was preparing an amendment to the Motor Vehicle and School Bus Safety Act of 1974, which said, "Federal safety standards may not require that any vehicles be equipped with a safety belt interlock system." Some Hill staffers say Ford actually wrote the amendment. With a well-timed push from auto lobbyists, the amendment passed. The airbag and the ignition interlock were now both dead, victims of one of the most brilliantly executed double fixes in the history of lobbying."
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We note that our agency's previous experience with ignition interlocks indicates that great care must be taken in requiring vehicle modifications to induce higher belt use, to avoid consumer backlash. As of August 1973, Standard No. 208 required all new cars to be equipped either with automatic protection or an ignition interlock for both front outboard seating positions. General Motors sold about ten thousand of its 1974 model year cars equipped with air bags that met the automatic protection requirement. Every other 1974 model year car sold in the United States came with an ignition interlock, which prevented the engine from operating if either the driver or front seat outboard passenger failed to fasten their manual seat belt.
In a notice published in the Federal Register (39 FR 10272) on March 19, 1974, we described the public reaction to the ignition interlock as follows: "Public resistance to the belt-starter interlock system . . . has been substantial, with current tallies of proper lap-shoulder belt usage on 1974 models running at or below the 60% level. Even that figure is probably optimistic as a measure of results to be achieved, in light of the likelihood that as time passes the awareness that the forcing systems can be disabled, and the means for doing so will become more widely disseminated. . . ."
There were also speeches on the floor of both houses of Congress expressing the public's anger at the interlock requirement. On October 27, 1974, President Ford signed into law a bill that prohibited any Federal motor vehicle safety standard from requiring or permitting as a means of compliance any seat belt interlock system. In response to this change in the law, we published a final rule in the Federal Register (39 FR 38380) on October 31, 1974 that deleted the interlock option from Standard No. 208 effective immediately.
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DOT gave manufacturers a further choice for new vehicles manufactured between 1972 and August 1975. Manufacturers could either install a passive restraint device such as automatic seatbelts or airbags or retain manual belts and add an “ignition interlock” device that in effect forced occupants to buckle up by preventing the ignition otherwise from turning on. 37 Fed. Reg. 3911 (1972). The interlock soon became popular with manufacturers. And in 1974, when the agency approved the use of detachable automatic seatbelts, it conditioned that approval by providing that such systems must include an interlock system and a continuous warning buzzer to encourage reattachment of the belt. 39 Fed. Reg. 14593. But the interlock and buzzer devices were most unpopular with the public. And Congress, responding to public pressure, passed a law that forbade DOT from requiring, or permitting compliance by means of, such devices. Motor Vehicle and Schoolbus Safety Amendments of 1974, §109, 88 Stat. 1482 (previously codified at 15 U.S.C. § 1410b(b) (1988 ed.)).
so there...
Built_Well - 30 Oct 2005 06:55 GMT [Chuckle.] I love how air bags are considered to be "automatic protection" that satisfies the DOT standard. In my lil ole accident a month ago that took out my Tercel's front end, the air bags stayed well rested in their compartments and did not deploy. Maybe I wasn't going fast enough--only 15 to 30 mph.
Kinda hard to classify that as **Automatic** protection.
I always use the belt, except sometimes I'd wait from 30 seconds to a minute until I was on the road to fasten the belt. Well the accident happened as I left the gas station parking lot, not 30 seconds from turning the key.
We ought to bring back the interlocks. Even the fools among us deserve to live. Thankfully my injuries were not major--a bump on the forehead as the forehead hit the steering wheel an inch above the left eye. But it was the biggest jolt I've probably ever had.
Two weeks afterwards, the forehead bump was gone, but then my left eye started feeling sore and occassionally blurring my vision when I'd read a book or a computer screen. Happy to say the eye's back in good shape again.
I'm amazed at something. That 1995 Tercel, even with the front end demolished, still runs! It won't pass inspection at all--components like the battery are knocked maybe 6 inches back, radiator tilted, engine may not be seated in the cradle properly--may even be knocking up against the firewall. Motor mount may be broken. BUT gosh darn it, THAT TERCEL STILL RUNS, and runs VERY WELL.
And the only fluid leak resulting from the accident was the windshield wiper fluid.
Looking forward to picking up the new Corolla when the dealer gets it in a week, but my 1995 DX automatic 4-door Tercel only has 33,000 miles on it--kind of a shame.
Bring back those interlocks--and please don't wait 30 seconds until you're on the road to fasten your belt, like foolish me. Do it before turning the key.
Apparently that's as close to "automatic" protection that lobbyists will let us get. I can say first hand that air bags are far from being automatic.
Hachiroku - 30 Oct 2005 15:26 GMT > [Chuckle.] I love how air bags are considered to be "automatic > protection" that satisfies the DOT standard. In my lil ole [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > lobbyists will let us get. I can say first hand > that air bags are far from being automatic. DAMN! 33K on a '95?! Mine had 133 when I sold it, and ran like a champ!
Good for you, you're all right. Bet you'll be fastening the belt as soon as you get in the car now!
Don Fearn - 30 Oct 2005 16:56 GMT I coulda sworn Hachiroku <Trueno@ae86.gts> typ'd:
>Good for you, you're all right. Bet you'll be fastening the belt as soon >as you get in the car now! Smart people do. EVERY time they (we) drive in traffic.
I just don't want some $%^&ing interlock telling me I HAVE to. Or any $%^&ing law either, for that matter. Even the $%^&ing seatbelt bleeper gets disconnected on my vehicles.
-Don (glad to live where wearing a motorcycle helmet is my choice too)
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Charles @ Kankakee - 30 Oct 2005 16:57 GMT >> [Chuckle.] I love how air bags are considered to be "automatic >> protection" that satisfies the DOT standard. In my lil ole [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > Good for you, you're all right. Bet you'll be fastening the belt as soon > as you get in the car now! Bring back seat belt interlocks? Does this guy need his mommy to wipe his nose for him, too? I thought being an adult meant you took responsibilty for your own stuff, like fastening your own seatbelts? It's bad enough we've got airbags, so that any moment in a frontal crash we can have Washington and all its hot air reproduced for us . . .
Charles
Built_Well - 30 Oct 2005 18:24 GMT I'll ignore the rude comments from one poster.
By the way, I neglected to mention that the other driver is perfectly fine--never injured because he was wearing his seat belt, thankfully.
But I caused $2,700 damage to his SUV, the only claim ever against my policy, which means things should have a happy ending.
So did that service technician disable your Corolla's interlocks without you even asking? Kinda sounded that way.
Wow, 1974--what a pivotal year. So many unnecessary deaths and injuries in the last 31 years because legislators succumbed to industry puppeteers. Hope I don't get sued for that--just a guess or opinion on my part from reading the excerpts above.
But I'm glad to see it wasn't a court that ruled against the interlocks--it was our "independent" legislators.
Scott in Florida - 30 Oct 2005 18:47 GMT >I'll ignore the rude comments from one poster. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >But I'm glad to see it wasn't a court that ruled against the >interlocks--it was our "independent" legislators. gawd....someone was rude to ya?
In here?
You poor poor baby.....
ROFLMAO
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Charles @ Kankakee - 30 Oct 2005 23:11 GMT > I'll ignore the rude comments from one poster. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > But I'm glad to see it wasn't a court that ruled against the > interlocks--it was our "independent" legislators. Rude, my a.s! I'm trying to make a point here and it completely missed you. Interlocks are for non-adults that can't take the time or the responsibility to buckle their own seatbelts. They are mental children, wanting the nanny state to take care of all their needs for them. They will be the people that will vote for Hillary in 2008.
I am glad I never owned a 1974 vehicle. I had to take driver's ed in one and the interlock didn't work right half the time.
Charles
Ray O - 31 Oct 2005 00:02 GMT > [Chuckle.] I love how air bags are considered to be "automatic > protection" that satisfies the DOT standard. In my lil ole > accident a month ago that took out my Tercel's front end, the > air bags stayed well rested in their compartments and did > not deploy. Maybe I wasn't going fast enough--only 15 to 30 mph. If you were exiting a gas station when the accident occurred and you were hit from the side or at an angle, the steering wheel air bag probably wouldn't deploy because it is designed to protect in a frontal collision. There are 3 air bag sensors - at least 2 have to sense rapid deceleration in order for the air bag to deploy.
> Kinda hard to classify that as **Automatic** protection. Auto manufacturers do not classify air bags as automatic protection. That is why they are referred to as a **supplemental** restraint system by Toyota, supplemental inflatable restraints by GM, etc. They are not intended to replace seatbelts. In fact, a properly worn seatbelt is necessary to keep the person in position for the air bag to work. Otherwise, the passenger can and often is ejected from the vehicle or the air bag injures a properly positioned person.
> I always use the belt, except sometimes I'd wait > from 30 seconds to a minute until I was on the road to fasten [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > lobbyists will let us get. I can say first hand > that air bags are far from being automatic. Fortunately, it sounds like you were not severely injured and will now wear the seatbelt before putting the car in motion.
 Signature Ray O correct the return address punctuation to reply
Built_Well - 31 Oct 2005 19:08 GMT Some interesting tid-bits:
"Today, however, [about] 35 years since the federal government required that all pas- senger cars be equipped with seat belts, approxi- mately one-quarter of U.S. drivers and front-seat passengers are not buckling up."
[Yikers, that's a lot of people! One out of 4 aren't buckling up.]
Here's more support for interlocks--or at least the use of loud reminding buzzers and internal strobe lights:
"Belt use rates in the United States lag well behind the 90 to 95 percent usage rates in Canada, Australia, and several north- ern European countries."
"Properly used, seat belts can reduce the risk of fatal injury for front-seat occupants by about 45 percent in cars and by about 60 percent in light trucks driven as passenger vehicles"
[And that's just for Fatal injuries--I imagine the percentage skyrockets for all injuries in general, including serious injuries.]
Now the following is TRULY scary:
"Hard-core nonusers comprise approximately 4 per- cent of drivers, but this same group has significantly more traffic violations, higher crash involvement rates, higher arrest rates, and higher rates of alcohol con- sumption than those who buckle up all or part of the time."
"Sixty percent of drivers in severe crashes were reportedly not wearing seat belts. These nonusers pose risks to themselves and to others and are therefore an important audience to reach; however, reminder sys- tems may not be effective."
Sounds to me like the roads are really unsafe.
I dunno. If you ask me, it just makes sense that a car shouldn't start if the belts aren't engaged.
But at the very least, a really loud buzzer ought to sound for *as long as the car is on*--not these whimpy buzzers in use today. And this intolerable buzzer should remain on for the entire length of the car trip if the driver isn't belted. I'm guessing even somebody drunk outta his gord couldn't ignore a loud, loud buzzer running for even 10 minutes, let alone a whole 40-minute drive.
Oh well.
1974--a year which will TRULY live in infamy. I think there's roughly 50,000 deaths on the road each year in the U.S. Multiply that figure by the 31 years that have passed
since 1974, and you come up with over 1-and-a-half MILLION deaths. That's more than 3 times the number of U.S. deaths suffered in World War 2, in both the European and Far Eastern theaters.
Put another way, each year on the roads, we suffer about half the deaths as the average number of yearly war deaths sufferred during each year of World War Two (50,000 compared to roughly 100,000).
My gosh, we have a mini-Dubbya Dubbya Two on the roads each and every year. Someting really needs to be done--at least the loud non-stop BUZZER system if not the interlocks. I hope our legislators start earning their $150,000 pay checks and do something that counts, instead of cow-towing to Emperor Ford or Fuhrer General Motors. I'd be damn ashamed to be a Senator or Representative.
Built_Well - 31 Oct 2005 19:23 GMT Oh, did I say our Representatives and Senators earn only about $150,000 each year? I neglected to mention that they also get about a million dollars each year for office expenses. Not many people know about the extra $900,000 or million each Rep. and Senator gets annually just to run an office.
If any legislators happen to be reading--and I doubt any are--probably getting BJ's from Congressional pages (remember that scandal a few years back?), please do something about these death machines that are killing your fellow Americans at half the rate as World War 2.
Built_Well - 31 Oct 2005 19:30 GMT My goodness, a Senator or Rep. can get a lot of BJ's with all that office money. Don't believe for a second that all that cash is spent on office supplies [Chuckle!]
Built_Well - 31 Oct 2005 20:13 GMT Let me say that my allusions to World War 2, such as "day of infamy," "Emperor Ford," and "Fuhrer General Motors" were all in good fun and satire. I criticize my own government more than anyone else's, as you can see from my Congressional pay comments above.
I'm glad we're all friends now, American, Japanese, German, etc. That's the way it should be. And nobody makes better cars in the world than Toyota.
Hachiroku - 31 Oct 2005 22:07 GMT > Let me say that my allusions to World War 2, such > as "day of infamy," "Emperor Ford," and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > German, etc. That's the way it should be. And nobody > makes better cars in the world than Toyota. And you had a Tercel. I had a '95, 100,000 when I bought it, 130,000 when I sold it 2.5 years later, and 45 MPG most of the way.
Built_Well - 01 Nov 2005 00:42 GMT I just learned something awful. Not only did Congress's 1974 law forbid federal traffic safety agencies like NHTSA from requiring that car companies use seat belt interlocks, but
the law also forbade NHTSA from requiring manufacturers from even using buzzer warnings that lasted more than 8 seconds!!
Now that's a true travesty!
8 SECONDS.
I'm guessing _continuously_ sounding buzzers would save thousands of lives annually, yet they are still outlawed. And they'd probably prevent hundreds of thousands of injuries,
From a recent paper by the TRB (Transportation Research Board):
"[In 1974] Congress promptly enacted legislation prohibiting NHTSA from requiring either ignition interlocks or continuous buzzer warnings of more than 8 seconds."
Now that's true industry lobby evil--not even letting buzzers do their job.
"NHTSA then implemented the requirement of a 4- to 8-second warning light and buzzer system [that's all NHTSA could do] that is activated when front seat belts are not fastened at the time of ignition. This standard remains in effect [today]."
Scott in Florida - 01 Nov 2005 00:56 GMT We have a young Communist here!
gawd...please go to Cuba or Russia...
>I just learned something awful. Not only did >Congress's 1974 law forbid federal traffic safety [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > 8 SECONDS. What the hell is wrong with this....commie...
> I'm guessing _continuously_ sounding buzzers >would save thousands of lives annually, yet they >are still outlawed. And they'd probably prevent >hundreds of thousands of injuries, Oh the humanity of it all....
I can save the world from itself.
I'm a young Commie...
> From a recent paper by the TRB (Transportation >Research Board): [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Now that's true industry lobby evil--not even >letting buzzers do their job. True Commie...crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh my god...
My head hurts.
Evil Industry....
ROFLMAO
>"NHTSA then implemented the requirement of >a 4- to 8-second warning light and buzzer system >[that's all NHTSA could do] that is activated when >front seat belts are not fastened at the time of >ignition. This standard remains in effect [today]."  Signature Scott in Florida
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Built_Well - 01 Nov 2005 01:07 GMT Let me be the third to say that it's actually "Canada *has* a military!"--not have
[chuckle]
Scott in Florida - 01 Nov 2005 01:11 GMT >Let me be the third to say that it's actually >"Canada *has* a military!"--not have > >[chuckle] Does Canada have a military?
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Still Voting Democratic?
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Gord Beaman - 01 Nov 2005 02:53 GMT >>Let me be the third to say that it's actually >>"Canada *has* a military!"--not have >> >>[chuckle] > >Does Canada have a military? Hey Scottie, aren't you supposed to 'beep' when you back up like that?
ROFLMAO!!! <gasp><choke><snort>
You really are a funny guy!...
(...that's 'funny' as in 'odd' you know...)
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Built_Well - 05 Nov 2005 18:43 GMT My left eye and forehead are still sore 6 weeks after the accident--getting better but slowly.
I understand what happened now.
In __1974__ had New Hampshire Congressman Louis Wyman not prevented the highway safety administration from requiring car manufacturers to use anything longer than a measley 8-second MAXIMUM buzz time for safety belt warning buzzers, I seriously doubt I would have been injured at all __31 years__ later.
And I'm sure that's true for millions upon millions of others who have been injured, many seriously, since '74.
Louie's unsafe amendments to the '74 highway safety bill not only prevented federal agencies from requiring seat belt interlocks (the use of which can be debated), but Louie's amendements also limited agencies from requiring anything longer than an 8-second seat belt Buzzer warning, still in effect today. In other words, no continuous buzzer warnings. I don't think the utter badness of that idea can be debated. Why would industry lobbyists not want continuous buzzers? Any ideas?
If _Continuous_ buzzers were around, I would guess the very first thing almost everybody would do upon entering a car is fasten the belts. There would be no hesitation or wait time because we would have quickly tired of that sound of the continuous buzzer long ago.
As mentioned, I always wear seat belts, but sometimes I'd wait 30 seconds to a minute until I was on the road to fasten it. BIG Mistake as the accident happend not 30 seconds after starting the car and pulling out of the gas station parking lot.
Thank you Representative Louis Wyman.
I see on Google that he died in 2002. I'm sure I'm speaking for millions when I say:
"Rest in peace, you spineless industry lap dog."
I would recite some curse about your children or grandchildren, but not being superstitious, I know that such a curse would do no good.
I might also say to Little Louie to "burn in hell" but, again, not being superstitious I don't believe in heaven and hell.
The law has to be changed to at least require continuous buzzers, if not interlocks.
Okie, now on to happier things.
Mike Hunter - 06 Nov 2005 22:31 GMT It was not the industry that killed off seatbelt interlocks, it was the constituents of those in Congress that screamed and hollered to have that regulation rescinded LOL
Ford and Toyota vehicles continue to sound the 'no belt' warning again every so often, in any event. Ford and GM sound an alarm if one neglects to turn off a turn signal after a while, as well.
mike hunt
> My left eye and forehead are still sore 6 weeks > after the accident--getting better but slowly. [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > Okie, now on to happier things. Don Fearn - 06 Nov 2005 23:12 GMT I coulda sworn "Built_Well" <built@built9.com> typ'd:
> If _Continuous_ buzzers were around, I would >guess the very first thing almost everybody >would do upon entering a car is fasten the belts. >There would be no hesitation or wait time because >we would have quickly tired of that sound of the >continuous buzzer long ago. No, you're WRONG about that. The FIRST thing I did was DISCONNECT the $%^&ing thing! I don't NEED a nanny telling me what to do; I have a BRAIN and I can figure that out for myself.
> As mentioned, I always wear seat belts, but >sometimes I'd wait 30 seconds to a minute until I >was on the road to fasten it. BIG Mistake as the >accident happend not 30 seconds after starting the >car and pulling out of the gas station parking lot. If you think that you don't need seatbelts as SOON as you are in traffic, then you're an idiot. Crashes can happen ANY time. I taught my kids from day one that they had to have their seatbelts on as soon as we were at the end of the driveway. They still wear seatbelts EVERY time they're in traffic, as do I.
BUT none of us NEEDS a nanny buzzer telling us when we need to put on a seatbelt. Each of us can use a BRAIN to figure that out.
If you can't, you are TOO ST00PID to be driving!!
-Don
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Built_Well - 07 Nov 2005 00:23 GMT > BUT none of us NEEDS a nanny buzzer telling us when we need to put on a > seatbelt. Each of us can use a BRAIN to figure that out. Apparently one-fourth of the driving population needs a buzzer:
Quote from a recent study: "Today, however, [about] 35 years since the federal government required that all passenger cars be equipped with seat belts, approximately one-quarter of U.S. drivers and front-seat passengers are not buckling up."
And these millions of unbuckled drivers pose a danger to you as well as themselves.
Don Fearn - 07 Nov 2005 01:17 GMT I coulda sworn "Built_Well" <built_well@bbbbb.com> typ'd:
>> BUT none of us NEEDS a nanny buzzer telling us when we need to put on a >> seatbelt. Each of us can use a BRAIN to figure that out. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >And these millions of unbuckled drivers pose a danger to you as well as >themselves. To me??
In what way???
Unbelted drivers die more often in crashes. That means less time in intensive care units, and therefore less cost for me.....
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Brian Gordon - 07 Nov 2005 01:52 GMT >I coulda sworn "Built_Well" <built_well@bbbbb.com> typ'd: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Unbelted drivers die more often in crashes. That means less time in >intensive care units, and therefore less cost for me..... But, all too often, an unbelted driver in a crash finds himself through the windshield or on the wrong side of the passenger compartment, so the car is totally out of control. THAT is a danger to me.
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Gord Beaman - 07 Nov 2005 02:50 GMT
>But, all too often, an unbelted driver in a crash finds himself through the >windshield or on the wrong side of the passenger compartment, so the car is >totally out of control. THAT is a danger to me. Nah...common sense says that if the crash was severe enough to put the driver through the w/s or in the other seat then the car ain't going anywhere anyway and can't be controlled anyway.
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Greg - 07 Nov 2005 02:19 GMT >> BUT none of us NEEDS a nanny buzzer telling us when we need to put on a >> seatbelt. Each of us can use a BRAIN to figure that out. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > And these millions of unbuckled drivers pose a danger to you as well as > themselves. Not to mention all of the unbuckled passengers in the rear seats.
Greg.
Gord Beaman - 07 Nov 2005 02:45 GMT "Built_Well" <built_well@bbbbb.com> wrote
>And these millions of unbuckled drivers pose a danger to you as well as >themselves. While I'm firmly 'for' all forms of safety devices (especially those which protect the OTHER vehicle occupants) I don't really see the sense in seatbelt laws...how do seatbelts protect the people in OTHER vehicles?...I think that aspect could be handled much better by insurance companies...no pay-out to drivers who have an accident when it's apparent that they weren't belted up. Simple.
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Scott in Florida - 07 Nov 2005 12:45 GMT >.how do seatbelts protect the >people in OTHER vehicles? Pretty simple...really.
If you are belted in....you will stay behind the wheel and may be able to control you car enough to avoid an accident.
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Gord Beaman - 07 Nov 2005 18:01 GMT >>.how do seatbelts protect the >>people in OTHER vehicles? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >If you are belted in....you will stay behind the wheel and >may be able to control you car enough to avoid an accident. Nah...any impact big enough to remove you from the driver's seat will pretty much render the car uncontrollable.
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Scott in Florida - 07 Nov 2005 18:45 GMT >>>.how do seatbelts protect the >>>people in OTHER vehicles? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Nah...any impact big enough to remove you from the driver's seat >will pretty much render the car uncontrollable. BEFORE the impact....
BEFORE.......
 Signature Scott in Florida
Greg - 07 Nov 2005 20:53 GMT >>>.how do seatbelts protect the >>>people in OTHER vehicles? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Nah...any impact big enough to remove you from the driver's seat > will pretty much render the car uncontrollable. I taught my 5 year old son a lesson last night. He unbuckled his belt as we were pulling into the driveway at home, I tapped on the brakes from about 5-10kmh. He flew off the seat, and got a blood nose and cut lip from the dash. I think (hope) he now understands that when he's in the car - the belt is on.
Greg.
Gord Beaman - 08 Nov 2005 04:01 GMT >>>>.how do seatbelts protect the >>>>people in OTHER vehicles? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Greg. Yeh...he's a tiny tot with nothing to hold him in his seat...you're a fully grown adult with both feet on the floor and a steering wheel to hold onto...it would take quite an impact to remove -you- from under the wheel...I'd think the size of such an impact would likely render the vehicle uncontrollable anyway...
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Gord Beaman - 07 Nov 2005 02:37 GMT snip
>If you think that you don't need seatbelts as SOON as you are in >traffic, then you're an idiot. Crashes can happen ANY time. I taught [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >-Don Don, don't you feel the least bit foolish with that extremely foolish statement above?...by your admission it's kinda apparent that some drivers indeed DO need a 'nanny buzzer'...you might try making a little more sense next post...
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Don Fearn - 07 Nov 2005 02:56 GMT I coulda sworn Gord Beaman <gord@islandtelecom.com> typ'd:
> snip >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Don, don't you feel the least bit foolish with that extremely >foolish statement above?... You mean posting to alt.autos.toyota? Yeah, it is a little foolish, innit?
>by your admission it's kinda apparent >that some drivers indeed DO need a 'nanny buzzer'...you might try >making a little more sense next post... I've never claimed to make sense -- not here. not any other newsgroup I've ever posted to . . . . .
-D
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Ray O - 07 Nov 2005 03:34 GMT > My left eye and forehead are still sore 6 weeks > after the accident--getting better but slowly. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > than an 8-second seat belt Buzzer warning, still > in effect today. Too bad former Congressman Lyman passed away in 2002. You could have written to him to tell him that it was his fault that you did not buckle your seat belt and got injured as a result.
I have not seen any studies of how many people bypass ignition interlocks and buzzers, but from what I have seen, people who do not want to wear seat belts just buckle them behind them to get around the interlocks and buzzers.
If it is any solace to you, there is a light on the dashboard that continues to flash if you do not buckle your seat when the car is started. Of course, you would have to occasionally look at the instruments to notice, like when you scan the instrument panel to make sure that all warning lights are off after starting the engine. If you cannot remember to fasten your seatbelt before putting the vehicle in motion, you can ask someone to wire a buzzer into the warning light circuit.
Also, several states have a mandatory seat belt law as a further incentive to buckle your seat belt prior to putting the vehicle in motion.
In
> other words, no continuous buzzer warnings. I > don't think the utter badness of that idea can > be debated. Why would industry lobbyists > not want continuous buzzers? Any ideas? Auto industry lobbyists would not want continuous buzzers because auto manufacturers do not want them. Auto manufacturers do not want them because by and large, the buying public does not want them.
> If _Continuous_ buzzers were around, I would > guess the very first thing almost everybody [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > accident happend not 30 seconds after starting the > car and pulling out of the gas station parking lot. Many accidents happen while people are pulling out of driveways and side streets, as you have discovered. That is why people who take driver's education are taught to fasten their seat belts BEFORE they put the car in motion, every time.
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Brent Secombe - 07 Nov 2005 04:50 GMT ...
> > As mentioned, I always wear seat belts, but > > sometimes I'd wait 30 seconds to a minute until I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > education are taught to fasten their seat belts BEFORE they put the car in > motion, every time. I bet I'm not alone in this: getting out to lower the garage door when leaving home, I'm often surprised to find I'd already fastened the seatbelt while in the garage.
Brent
Ray O - 07 Nov 2005 05:40 GMT > ... >> > As mentioned, I always wear seat belts, but [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Brent Brent,
We were with friends the other day, talking about "the good old days" and my wife was saying "remember when we had to get out of the car to open and close the garage door?" I was thinking that there probably are not very many garages without openers these days.
I don't like to let the car idle unnecessarily and so I have always buckled the seat belt and made sure all passengers are buckled before starting the engine. It is a habit that I do not vary from so at least for me, buzzers and interlocks are unnecessary.
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Built_Well - 07 Nov 2005 20:19 GMT Ray O wrote:
> Auto industry lobbyists would not want continuous buzzers > because auto manufacturers do not want them. Auto manufacturers > do not want them because by and large, the buying public does > not want them. Ray O, thank you for your comments. There's one thing I disagree with you on, though. I'm not so trusting of Boardroom Motives to think that car manufacturers did not want continuous buzzers in 1974 because the public did not want them.
One look at the Ford Pinto case shows that board members are coldly calculating.
Executive thought, you probably know, ran something like this:
"Well, if it costs more for us to fix the Pinto's gas tanks than pay out the jury awards to victim's families, then just pay out the awards."
I'd really like to know the real reasons behind the industry's apparent squashing of Continuous buzzers back in '74.
Ray O - 07 Nov 2005 23:58 GMT > Ray O wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ray O, thank you for your comments. You're welcome!
There's one
> thing I disagree with you on, though. I'm not so trusting > of Boardroom Motives to think that car manufacturers did > not want continuous buzzers in 1974 because the public > did not want them. Although I was not a member of the board of an automotive manufacturer, I did work for an auto manufacturer for almost 15 years and have a pretty fair idea of how features and options are incorporated into vehicles.
As is true when selling just about any product, the companies that succeed do so because they are selling a product that the public wants. Take a moment and think about options and features that are popular in vehicles today - AC, keyless entry and security systems, cruise control, power door locks, power windows, GPS map systems, leather seating, CD players, etc. Absent government controls, auto manufacturers will include or exclude features based on what consumers want. If the public wanted continuous seat belt buzzers in their cars and trucks and saw that as a desireable feature and were willing to pay for it, there is absolutely no logical reason why an auto manufacturer wouldn't include it.
Think about the "talking cars" of the 1970's with a female voice that would tell you that the door was ajar or your seat belt was unfastened. They are gone today because people didn't like that feature.
> One look at the Ford Pinto case shows that board > members are coldly calculating. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > gas tanks than pay out the jury awards to > victim's families, then just pay out the awards." Using the Pinto as an example is notr a valid one.
When the Pinto was designed and produced, I believe its fuel tank construction and placement were in keeping with practices for many auto manufacturers at that time, where the fuel tank is an integral part of the vehicle's structure. I did not study the Pinto's actual design, NHTSA records, and court records so I am not in a position to comment on whether the design was actually deficient.
Many safety improvements come as a result of landmark cases, unforseen accidents, cost/benefit analysis, and state of the art at the time.
Look at a 1950's car and you will see that there have been tremendous advances in vehicular safety. Your comment above implies that auto makers have an obligation to bring everything they have ever sold up to current state of the art in order to protect accident victims. If that were the case, a '53 Chevy would need lap and shoulder belts, door side intrusion beams, front and rear crumple zone modifications, break away engine and transmission mounts, reinforced firewall, padded instrument and knee panel, front and side air bags, ABS, traction control, stabiolity control, all wheel drive, collapsible steering column, laser cruise control, fuel cells, on-board fire supression systems, roll bars, and more.
Did you know that hospitals treat more people with injuries to their lower extremities from front end collisions than 20 years ago? An uninformed observer would blame the auto industry for not doing enough to save peoples' legs.
An informed observer will point out that more people survive front end collissions than 20 years ago, and what used to be a fatal accident now results in a victim with injuries to their lower extremities. There were no statistics for how many corpses had broken legs but there are statistics for the type of injuries from auto accidents. By the way, most automakers are working on footwell protection without having to compromise the overall structural integrity of the vehicle. That is why you are beginning to see knee bolsters and air bags being offered.
> I'd really like to know the real reasons behind > the industry's apparent squashing of Continuous buzzers > back in '74. The real reason may not be the one you would like to hear or believe, but most people do not want them and believe that they are responsible enough to fasten their seatbelts before putting the vehicle in motion and will take responsibility for not doing so if they do not.
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Gord Beaman - 08 Nov 2005 04:22 GMT snip of much good info
>The real reason may not be the one you would like to hear or believe, but >most people do not want them and believe that they are responsible enough to >fasten their seatbelts before putting the vehicle in motion and will take >responsibility for not doing so if they do not. I still think that seatbelt use should not be legislated...it should be widely taught and then left up to the insurers to enforce by refusing to pay when it can be proven that belts were not worn during a crash.
My reasons are that belt wearing does nothing to protect 'other vehicle' occupants and therefore is your own responsibility. IMO
One needs to do all that's possible (including being forced by law) to ensure that you don't cause injury to OTHERS...you have no right to do that...if you wanna write yourself off by stupidly sitting on your belts etc then 'fill yer boots'...You're merely improving the driver gene pool after all...
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-Gord. (use gordon in email)
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 06:08 GMT > snip of much good info > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > sitting on your belts etc then 'fill yer boots'...You're merely > improving the driver gene pool after all... The Massachusetts State Police had a very informative demonstration at auto shows several years back. It was basically a passenger car seat and seat belt mounted on rails about 10 feet long that were raised at one end. Participants went up a few stairs, sat in the seat, and fastened the seat belt. The seat was released and rolled down the track and came to an abrupt halt at the end of the rails to simulate a 5 MPH crash. The people waiting in line and watching could see the passenger get thrown against the seat belt and the participants can feel themselves thrown against the seat belt. It convinced a lot of non-believers to always wear their seat belts!
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Hachiroku - 08 Nov 2005 13:02 GMT >> snip of much good info >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > belt and the participants can feel themselves thrown against the seat belt. > It convinced a lot of non-believers to always wear their seat belts! They still have that thing and bring it to county fairs.
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 16:57 GMT >>> snip of much good info >>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > They still have that thing and bring it to county fairs. Have you ever taken a ride on it? It's a blast!
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Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 17:23 GMT "Louis Wyman"--a name that should go down in history with the likes of "Benedict Arnold" and other infamous names.
"He did a Wyman on the public."
"He Wyman'ed us."
In response to your comment, were Louie still with us, I wouldn't write a letter. I would probably organize a _Peaceful_ protest outside his local New Hampshire Congressional offices, and invite the news media.
I'm guessing, at a minimum, 50 or 60 accident survivors would show up. But there's always a chance hundreds might appear, because Little Louie's unsafe amendments to the highway safety bill are responsible for millions of serious injuries since 1974, and many, many deaths.
The 8-SECOND ABSURDITY.
Lil Louie effectively tied safety agencies' arms behind their backs for 30 years.
If I were a believer in heaven and hell, and all that religious superstitious stuff (today's religion is tomorrow's mythology, after all), I'd be confident Mr. Louis Wyman is burning in "Hades."
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 18:04 GMT > "Louis Wyman"--a name that should go down in history > with the likes of "Benedict Arnold" and other infamous names. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > is tomorrow's mythology, after all), I'd be confident > Mr. Louis Wyman is burning in "Hades." You are assuming that former Congressman Lyman was bowing to the desires of the auto industry. I don't know if that assumption is correct or valid because there are no auto manufacturers or factories located in New Hampshire so auto manufacturers are not his constituents.
Perhaps he figured that if one was not in the habit of automatically fastening their seat belt AND an 8 second audible reminder AND a continuously flashing reminder in the instrument panel was not enough to get that person to fasten the seat belts, and, rather than taking responsibility for their action or inaction, that person blames someone else, it might be beneficial if that person were removed from the gene pool.
Or, perhaps we should have a big government that protects people from injuring themselves. By banning the sale of candles, we can prevent thousands of house fires and injuries each year. By banning the sale of all instruments with a blade longer than 1/2 inch, including hunting, fishing, and kitchen knives, letter openers, screwdrivers, scissors, chisels, tent stakes, nails, screws, etc., we can eliminate thousands of cuts, pokes, and stabbings every year. Banning bathtubs, hot tubs, pools, swimming, and boating would prevent thousands of drowning deaths each year. Banning stairs in homes and public places would prevent people from falling down stairs. There should be a government curfew whenever there is extreme weather predicted, like thunderstorms, extreme heat, or extreme cold so we can prevent weather related deaths. If prescription medication were dispensed from the pharmacy one dose at a time, then overdoses could be prevented. If we can get all of this accomplished, we may be able to prevent people from hurting themselves.
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Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 18:17 GMT The following refers to the pivotal 1970's in car safety legislation and comes from the September/October issue of "Mother Jones" Magazine, a great publication:
"However, according to Ford, airbags will add anywhere from $100 to $400 to the cost of every auto. The company argues, probably correctly, that the auto buyers would prefer to pay less and take their chances. But the vehemently anti-airbag Ford wasn't willing to take its chances with the Department of Transportation even when it was loaded with pro-auto Republicans. So Ford introduced a crafty little system called the ignition interlock. The ignition interlock will not allow a driver to start the car until the front seat passengers are buckled up. The ignition interlock was a sensible compromise. The rationale was that if drivers were forced to use seat belts there would be no need for airbags, which is true enough. In late 1970, Henry Ford II sold Chrysler president Lynn Townsend on the idea and convinced him they could sell it together in Washington.
A Nixon aide set up a meeting between Ford, Chrysler's Townsend and Nixon to discuss "matters related to the automotive industry." A few days after the meeting, John Ehrlichman called a meeting with Transportation Secretary John Volpe. After the meeting Volpe was heard to remark "The airbag's in trouble." Soon after, Henry Ford II contributed nearly $50,000 toward Nixon's re-election campaign.
After many of the delays that auto-makers love, on August 15, 1973, Department of Transportation officials finally issued a new regulation requiring ignition interlocks on all new cars. There was now no need for airbags, so they dropped from the picture. During this two-year delay, however, Congress member Louis Wyman (R-N.H.) was preparing an amendment to the Motor Vehicle and School Bus Safety Act of 1974, which said, "Federal safety standards may not require that any vehicles be equipped with a safety belt interlock system." Some Hill staffers say Ford actually wrote the amendment. With a well-timed push from auto lobbyists, the amendment passed. The airbag and the ignition interlock were now both dead, victims of one of the most brilliantly executed double fixes in the history of lobbying.
[Thank you Hachiroku, for providing the paragraph that started the thread.]
Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 18:30 GMT Incidentally, my air bag did not come out, though if you looked at the severely damaged front end of my car, you would think it would have. And certainly my forehead and left eye say the bag should have deployed.
Obviously air bags are not enough. They don't always work.
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 20:22 GMT > Incidentally, my air bag did not come out, though if you > looked at the severely damaged front end of my car, you would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Obviously air bags are not enough. They don't always > work. You are correct - air bags are not enough and are not intended to be enough. That is why they are called SUPPLEMENTAL restraint systems and that is why the warning on the visor that is there continuously tells you to fasten your seat belts.
Your comment that the airbag should have deployed because you suffered an injury is one that many, if not most, people make when they suffer an injury in a situation where the air bag has not deployed. This stems from a misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of how air bags function.
The steering wheel and passenger dashboard airbags are not designed to deploy in every situation.
Several parameters must be met before they will deploy. There are 3 sensors that sense the rate of deceleration, and at least 2 must detect crash conditions. This prevents air bag deployment in non-crash conditions.
The point of impact has to be within a certain range of a head-on collision. If the vehicle is hit from the side or rear, the front air bags will not deploy because the forces are lateral. Side air bags and side curtain air bags are designed for side impacts.
There is a vehicle speed threshold that must be passed before the air bags deploy. Air bags are not designed to deploy in a 5 MPH accident because a properly belted occupant should easily survive an accident at that low speed without airbag deployment, and such a low threshold would cause many false deployments.
Most people do not realize that air bags provide little or no protection without a properly fastened seat belt, and in fact may cause more severe injury or death without seat belts. The seat belts keep the occupant in a position where the air bag's cushion will do some good. Without seat belts, occupants can be ejected from the vehicle, pushed down into the footwell, or pushed over the steering wheel through the windshield.
It sounds like you were fortunate and did not suffer a life-threatening injury.
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Mike Hunter - 08 Nov 2005 20:40 GMT The SRS system is designed to deploy in a frontal collision at a specific speed, depending on the number of sensor triggered, and whether or not the saffing senor is engaged by the hydraulic system.
mike hunt
> Incidentally, my air bag did not come out, though if you > looked at the severely damaged front end of my car, you would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Obviously air bags are not enough. They don't always > work. Gord Beaman - 09 Nov 2005 02:21 GMT >The SRS system is designed to deploy in a frontal collision at a specific >speed, depending on the number of sensor triggered, and whether or not the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> Obviously air bags are not enough. They don't always >> work.
 Signature -Gord. (use gordon in email)
Gord Beaman - 09 Nov 2005 03:13 GMT >The SRS system is designed to deploy in a frontal collision at a specific >speed, depending on the number of sensor triggered, and whether or not the >saffing senor is engaged by the hydraulic system. > >mike hunt Mike, what's this 'saffing senor' (I assume you mean safing sensor?)...what's that all about?..and what hydraulic system?...
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-Gord. (use gordon in email)
Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 19:18 GMT I fully acknowledge that I'm responsible for not having put on my seat belt before starting the car. I think I said so about a week ago.
The car manufacturers are also responsible, however. They have a responsibility to let you know of the extreme danger involved in rolling 3 thousand pounds of metal down the road.
And a simple 8-second warning buzzer does not adequately warn you of that HUGE danger. A Continuous buzzer, however, would.
Like I mentioned, I *always* use the belt, but on occasion would wait 30 seconds to a minute until I was on the road before fastening it.
Of course that's dangerous--and a continuous buzzer would not let you forget how dangerous.
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 20:41 GMT >I fully acknowledge that I'm responsible for not having > put on my seat belt before starting the car. I think I said [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > They have a responsibility to let you know of the extreme danger > involved in rolling 3 thousand pounds of metal down the road. The car manufacturers post warnings about seat belts in the owner's manual an on the visor. The warning on the visor is permanent and is always there. I suspect that people ingore it because it is always there and just becomes a part of the surroundings.
> And a simple 8-second warning buzzer does not adequately > warn you of that HUGE danger. A Continuous buzzer, however, would. I suspect that a continious buzzer would also just become part of the surroundings. If people cannot be trusted to protect themselves from themselves, then IMO, a morre effective warning would be to mute the audio system and jam all cell phone calls unless the seat belts are fastened ;-)
> Like I mentioned, I *always* use the belt, but on occasion > would wait 30 seconds to a minute until I was on the road before > fastening it. > > Of course that's dangerous--and a continuous buzzer > would not let you forget how dangerous. I understand. It's kind of like waiting 30 seconds to a minute after starting intercourse before putting on a condom. That's too late and dangerous so people need an intercourse detector and continuous buzzer on the condom wrapper to distract them so they won't begin intercourse without the condom.
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Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 20:03 GMT My goodness. Wyman, Nixon, and Henry Ford the Second.
Did I forget to mention Darth Vader? [chuckle]
What a rogue's gallery.
Don't Get Wyman'ed! Use your belt.
Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 21:05 GMT Well, lookee there. Judging from the above article written in 1977, Henry Ford The-Second used the promise of installing interlocks to kill off air bags. Then he apparently used his henchman Wyman to kill off interlocks shortly afterwards!
Wyman equals "Boba Fett"?
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 21:26 GMT > Well, lookee there. Judging from the above article > written in 1977, Henry Ford The-Second used the promise of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Wyman equals "Boba Fett"? Air bags have been killed off?
Check out Richard Nixon's presidential time line http://www.nvr.org/pres_content.php?pro=pres&sec=timeline&subsec=5
During the last 3 years of his presidency, Nixon must have been a time manager extraordinaire because it looked like Nixon was fairly busy, with things like the withdrawal from Viet Nam, the Arab oil embargo, Agnew's resignation, looking for a new VP, and of course, Watergate and its aftermath and still have time to work on getting seat belt interlocks installed.
By the way, if you would like to install a continuously operating buzzer or warning chime, you may wish to visit an audio shop and ask them to link one to the warning light in the instrument panel. It is an easy job an would provide the warning you seek.
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Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 21:45 GMT Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off forever--but he sure tried apparently. The preceding Mother Jones article was written in 1977.
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 22:09 GMT > Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off > forever--but he sure tried apparently. The > preceding Mother Jones article was written in 1977. I'm sure that Mother Jones writers could teach all these respected investigative journalists, conservative politicians, and automotive engineers and executives many lessons in accurate investigative journalism, unbiased reporting, and automotive engineering. Where do they sign up? Seat belt interlocks and buzzers have to be a good idea if Mother Jones says so.
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Scott in Florida - 08 Nov 2005 22:50 GMT >> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off >> forever--but he sure tried apparently. The [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Seat belt interlocks and buzzers have to be a good idea if Mother Jones says >so. LOL....your tongue is sticking thru your cheek....LOL
 Signature Scott in Florida
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 23:03 GMT >>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off >>> forever--but he sure tried apparently. The [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > LOL....your tongue is sticking thru your cheek....LOL It's that obvious?
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Scott in Florida - 08 Nov 2005 23:31 GMT >>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off >>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently. The [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >It's that obvious? Yes....LOL
 Signature Scott in Florida
Ray O - 08 Nov 2005 23:43 GMT >>>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off >>>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently. The [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Yes....LOL Gotta work on my Oriental subtlety and obtuseness.
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Scott in Florida - 08 Nov 2005 23:55 GMT >>>>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off >>>>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently. The [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Gotta work on my Oriental subtlety and obtuseness. Nah...it is just fine....
LOL
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Ray O - 09 Nov 2005 00:04 GMT >>>>>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off >>>>>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently. The [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > LOL Thanks!
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Scott in Florida - 09 Nov 2005 00:38 GMT >>>>>>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off >>>>>>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently. The [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >Thanks! ur welcome.....
Does your cheek hurt?
 Signature Scott in Florida
Ray O - 09 Nov 2005 00:56 GMT >>>>>>>>> Of course, Ford could not keep air bags killed off >>>>>>>>> forever--but he sure tried apparently. The [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Does your cheek hurt? LOL, Naw, it gets plenty of exercise!
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Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 23:13 GMT Wyman --> I suppose that's pronounced "Why Man?"
"Why, man?"
That's a question I would have asked of Mister Wy-Man.
Why did you sell out your fellow human beings?
Millions severely injured since 1974 because of Mister Why-Man's legislation.
Built_Well - 08 Nov 2005 23:32 GMT Wyman--A name that should live in infamy.
October 27, 1974--a date that will live in infamy.
Everything changed on that day. Millions sentenced to death and injury on the roads for generations to come.
Scott in Florida - 08 Nov 2005 23:34 GMT >Wyman--A name that should live in infamy. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >sentenced to death and injury on the roads for >generations to come. Oh My God....the horror of it all....
How in hell did any of us live?
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Built_Well - 09 Nov 2005 00:08 GMT Incidentally, "Mother Jones" is a highly respected and journalistically rigorous publication. Go to any public library and you'll find it there, and certainly any university library.
The name comes from a social activist named Jones.
Scott in Florida - 09 Nov 2005 00:43 GMT >Incidentally, "Mother Jones" is a highly respected and >journalistically rigorous publication. Go to any public >library and you'll find it there, and certainly any university >library. > > The name comes from a social activist named Jones. Oh? Highly respected?
Just looked at the home page...and came up with this tripe...
Cheney's Torture Kick
Dick Cheney is truly insane. The vice-president is now off making impassioned pleas in defense of torture:
 Signature Scott in Florida
Ray O - 09 Nov 2005 01:01 GMT >>Incidentally, "Mother Jones" is a highly respected and >>journalistically rigorous publication. Go to any public [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Dick Cheney is truly insane. The vice-president is now off making > impassioned pleas in defense of torture: I looked up the magazine and web page too. "Mother" Jones had nothing to do with the not for profit agency that publishes the magazine.
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Hachiroku - 09 Nov 2005 01:13 GMT > Incidentally, "Mother Jones" is a highly respected and > journalistically rigorous publication. Go to any public > library and you'll find it there, and certainly any university > library. > > The name comes from a social activist named Jones. Yeah..I remember seeing it and attempting to read it. Even when I was Liberal I couldn't take it...just too Off The Shelf for me.
I don't take radicalism in either direction.
Built_Well - 09 Nov 2005 00:20 GMT Mary Harris (Mother) Jones: c. 1837-1930
"Who was "Mother Jones"? "According to a West Virginia District Attorney named Reese Blizzard, Mother Jones was "the most dangerous woman in America". According to Clarence Darrow, she was "one of the most forceful and picturesque figures of the American labor movement".
Born about 1837, in County Cork, Ireland, her family emigrated to Toronto, Canada, when she was a child. She trained to be a teacher at Toronto Normal School from 1858-1859, and worked briefly as a teacher and as a dressmaker. In 1861, Mary Harris married George Jones, an iron molder and union organizer, in Memphis, Tennessee.
The couple had four children - but all four children, and Mary's husband, died in the yellow fever epidemic of 1867. Mary Jones returned to Chicago, where she worked as a dressmaker until her shop was destroyed in the Chicago fire of 1871.
During the next few years, "Mother" Jones became increasingly active in the union movement. Her life is...."
Ray O - 09 Nov 2005 00:53 GMT > Mary Harris (Mother) Jones: c. 1837-1930 > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > During the next few years, "Mother" Jones became increasingly > active in the union movement. Her life is...." "Mother" Jones was undoubtedly a fine woman who helped many people improve the quality of their lives. That has nothing to do with the accuracy of a story that is published 47 years after her death.
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Built_Well - 09 Nov 2005 00:25 GMT Mother Jones is in heaven.
Louis Wyman is in hell.
[laughter]
Built_Well - 09 Nov 2005 00:53 GMT There's also an article on the MotherJones.com home page called
"The Lie Factory: How Bush Fabricated the Case for War"
I'll tell you this. Dubya is a good liar. I actually believed for a while that *he* believed there were weapons of mass destruction.
As good a liar as Dubya is, he's an even better thief, having stolen two elections with the help of brudda Jeb in Florida, who probably dumped lotsa election ballots in the Gulf of Mexico, so to speak.
Scott in Florida - 09 Nov 2005 01:09 GMT >There's also an article on the MotherJones.com >home page called [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >brudda Jeb in Florida, who probably dumped lotsa >election ballots in the Gulf of Mexico, so to speak. ROFLMAO.....
Bush lied?
ROFLMAO
Not in this lifetime...
Stole two elections?
From Demorats?
He didn't even have to show up to win against those losers!
 Signature Scott in Florida
Built_Well - 09 Nov 2005 02:03 GMT Hmm, I think I wasn't wearing my belt at the time of the accident, but I'm just assuming that because head hit steering wheel.
However, it's possible I was wearing the belt, and it just didn't work. I really can't recall.
How often to belts fail? Are there certain conditions in which belts are more likely to fail--for example a belt that has a twist or two in it?
Thanks.
Ray O - 09 Nov 2005 04:56 GMT > Hmm, I think I wasn't wearing my belt at the time > of the accident, but I'm just assuming that because head [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Thanks. I have never seen a seat belt fail that is properly fastened and has not been modified or damaged. I am defining "fail" as not functioning as designed. Seatbelts do have some stretch designed in and if the belt is pulled out for some reason, like if the wearer is reaching forward at the time of impact, it may not keep you from striking something.
A twist or two in the belt will not cause it to fail but it might give you a bruise where the twist is.
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