Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / November 2005
Mechanical Dependability
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TenPercent - 01 Nov 2005 02:58 GMT It just amazes me that you can buy a car for $15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better long-term "JD Power" mechanical dependability rating after 5 years than a car that costs a whole lot more like a Mercedes, Cadillac, or Jaguar. Am I interpreting the JD Power surveys wrongly?
For example, the '97 Corolla gets 4 stars in the JD Power survey for mechanical dependability compared to just 3 stars for a '97 S-Class Mercedes.
Scott in Florida - 01 Nov 2005 03:14 GMT >It just amazes me that you can buy a car for >$15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >JD Power survey for mechanical dependability >compared to just 3 stars for a '97 S-Class Mercedes. My '92 Corolla Wagon just keeps rollin along...
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Mike Hunter - 01 Nov 2005 20:26 GMT As do the Korean cars that the courier companies are buying.for $4,000 less. Courier fleets generally run them around the clock and they easily accumulate 100K in a year. They also use small cars from Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, VW, etc and ALL are problem free as well ;)
mike hunt
>>It just amazes me that you can buy a car for >>$15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > My '92 Corolla Wagon just keeps rollin along... High Tech Misfit - 01 Nov 2005 03:44 GMT > It just amazes me that you can buy a car for > $15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > JD Power survey for mechanical dependability > compared to just 3 stars for a '97 S-Class Mercedes. That's correct. The Germans just don't build cars like they used to. :-(
Art - 01 Nov 2005 17:47 GMT Actually Mercedes never built reliable cars. In the late 70's a doctor friend once told me that the 2 greatest days in the life of a doctor is when he gets his first Mercedes, and when he trades it in.
>> It just amazes me that you can buy a car for >> $15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > That's correct. The Germans just don't build cars like they used to. :-( C. E. White - 01 Nov 2005 23:32 GMT > Actually Mercedes never built reliable cars. In the late 70's a doctor > friend once told me that the 2 greatest days in the life of a doctor is > when he gets his first Mercedes, and when he trades it in. And yet used Mercedes always seem to have great resale value. Makes you wonder about the rationality of car buyers doesn't it.....
Ed
Art - 02 Nov 2005 17:29 GMT Expected reliability is just one attribute in considering value of a car.
>> Actually Mercedes never built reliable cars. In the late 70's a doctor >> friend once told me that the 2 greatest days in the life of a doctor is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ed Dana - 04 Nov 2005 04:44 GMT I really don't think that's true at all , in the 70's and 80's Mercedes built terrific cars . It didn't matter if you bought the top of the line or the least expensive model they made . You were always going to get a quality car and a good ownership experiece . That being said , German cars require more service then Japanese or domestic makes . These days quality is hit or miss . I wouldn't own one if It didn't have a warrenty , and I would probablly dump it when the warrenty ran out. -Dana
> Actually Mercedes never built reliable cars. In the late 70's a doctor > friend once told me that the 2 greatest days in the life of a doctor is [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> That's correct. The Germans just don't build cars like they used to. :-( boobie - 04 Nov 2005 06:50 GMT "Dana" <dlkramer@mindspring.com>
> I wouldn't own one if It didn't have a warrenty , and I would > probablly dump it when the warrenty ran out. So do the majority of the German owners, it seems
Mike Hunter - 04 Nov 2005 17:47 GMT I find it strange that you would make that comparison. I see a lot of old German sedans at old car shows, that I visit throughout the country, but hardly ever see a old Japanese sedan. ;)
mike hunt
> "Dana" <dlkramer@mindspring.com> >> I wouldn't own one if It didn't have a warrenty , and I would >> probablly dump it when the warrenty ran out. > > So do the majority of the German owners, it seems st-bum - 04 Nov 2005 19:50 GMT Why would you see an old japanese car? The German cars were made to be expensive and stylish, the Japanese cheap and dependable.
It's not that they don't exist, just that they were never stylish to begin with.
Do you see alot of Ford Fairmonts and Ford Escorts? How about Chevy Chevettes?
Scott in Florida - 04 Nov 2005 19:55 GMT >Why would you see an old japanese car? The German cars were made to be >expensive and stylish, the Japanese cheap and dependable. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Do you see alot of Ford Fairmonts and Ford Escorts? How about Chevy >Chevettes? The older Toyota's are on the road....not in shows...
 Signature Scott in Florida
Mike Hunter - 04 Nov 2005 21:28 GMT Apparently you do not frequent old cars shows, there are lots of basic vehicles like those you reference, from model 'Ts' on up to cars for the eighties. I have a '71 Pinto I take to shows. There are Falcon, Corvair and Valiant car clubs all over the US. You don't see Toyopet, Tercel or even Camry clubs, however. I see cars from GB, France. Even Italian car at shows which are not the poster cars for dependability. I suspect, from what I have seen in my years in the business, is that the limited availability and cost of parts as the reason Japanese cars are more likely to disappear over time, plus the average Toyota buyer is not considered a car guy who would keep and old car. Toyota buyers are more like appliance buyers, who use their appliances till they die and then junk them. You hear from Toyota buyer like that in this NG all the time
mike hunt
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> Why would you see an old japanese car? The German cars were made to be > expensive and stylish, the Japanese cheap and dependable. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Do you see alot of Ford Fairmonts and Ford Escorts? How about Chevy > Chevettes? Art - 07 Nov 2005 18:42 GMT My father had a 65 Ford Falcon. Nice looking body but the engine ate valves.
> Apparently you do not frequent old cars shows, there are lots of basic > vehicles like those you reference, from model 'Ts' on up to cars for the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> Do you see alot of Ford Fairmonts and Ford Escorts? How about Chevy >> Chevettes? Scott in Florida - 07 Nov 2005 18:58 GMT >My father had a 65 Ford Falcon. Nice looking body but the engine ate >valves. Nice looking?
http://www.mustangandfords.com/thehistoryof/25798/index5.html
Not in my book...
>> Apparently you do not frequent old cars shows, there are lots of basic >> vehicles like those you reference, from model 'Ts' on up to cars for the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >>> Chevettes? >  Signature Scott in Florida
Norm De Plume - 02 Nov 2005 01:56 GMT > > For example, the '97 Corolla gets 4 stars in the > > JD Power survey for mechanical dependability > > compared to just 3 stars for a '97 S-Class Mercedes. > > That's correct. The Germans just don't build cars like they used to. :-( With black dashboards and 800 fewer adjustment options for the stereo system?
TenPercent - 01 Nov 2005 04:46 GMT Anyone know why JD Powers doesn't include surveys of Rolls Royce, Ferrari, and Lotus owners in their automobile rankings? They include Lexus, Jag, and Mercedes owners.
Ray O - 01 Nov 2005 05:50 GMT > Anyone know why JD Powers doesn't include surveys > of Rolls Royce, Ferrari, and Lotus owners in their > automobile rankings? They include Lexus, Jag, and > Mercedes owners. Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Lotus, Bentley, etc. do not sell high enough numbers for significant statistics.
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Mike Hunter - 01 Nov 2005 20:30 GMT Not enough numbers sold to make a fair comparison. Smaller numbers show more problem when working with statistics. That is why Toyota is showing more problem now that they are selling in the millions rather than hundreds of thousands Murphy's law
mike hunt
> Anyone know why JD Powers doesn't include surveys > of Rolls Royce, Ferrari, and Lotus owners in their > automobile rankings? They include Lexus, Jag, and > Mercedes owners. st-bum - 04 Nov 2005 19:52 GMT Huh? Not quite.
Smaller sample sizes have more inherent variability.
Larger sample sizes to have "more defects" in an absolute sense. But as a % of the # sold, a larger sample size wouldn't cause more defects.
C. E. White - 01 Nov 2005 05:14 GMT > It just amazes me that you can buy a car for > $15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better > long-term "JD Power" mechanical dependability rating > after 5 years than a car that costs a whole lot more > like a Mercedes, Cadillac, or Jaguar. Am I interpreting > the JD Power surveys wrongly? But what are they actually surveying? How reliable is the survey? Isn't there a lot more to go wrong with a Mercedes than a Corolla? Are Mercedes owner more or less likely to report problems that Toyota owners? Most of these surveys depend on people deciding what is serious - do Toyota and Mercedes owners have the same opinion of what is serious? My sister will tell you her Honda has never had a problem - except I know the drivers side visor just fell of, the muffler has been replaced twice, the plug wires failed, paint is falling off the bumpers, and wheel covers, etc. However, if JD Powers surveyed my sister, Honda would look pretty damn good. If they asked me, they would look pretty bad (I would claim at least 5 problems, she would claim none). From what I've seen Toyota owners will put up with a lot more crap than Mercedes owners. Isn't it possible this skews the results?
> For example, the '97 Corolla gets 4 stars in the > JD Power survey for mechanical dependability > compared to just 3 stars for a '97 S-Class Mercedes. I am not sure where JD Powers is getting the data to determine the stars. I am assuming that it is coming from past results of the Vehicle Dependability Study. The 2005 version of this study is on line at http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089&search=1 . Take a look at this. Doesn't it make you wonder about the significance of their data collection when Buick, Lincoln, and Cadillac all out scored Toyota? Or that Mercury scored significantly higher than Ford and Buick scored way higher than Pontiac? Do you really think the survey is good enough to be significant to the level that you can say that Toyota with an average of 1.94 problem per vehicle is really better than Ford that has an average of 2.31 problems per vehicle? Especially when Mercury had 1.95 problems per vehicle? Looks to me, given all the possible sources of error, there is not much difference between any of the major brands. And certainly, a Toyota is not worth thousands more because you might have 0.37 fewer problems than a Ford. But if you do think this, why wouldn't you buy a Buick, which averages, according to this survey, only 1.63 problems per car.
Prior year surveys are available at:
http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2004055&search=1 http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2003050&search=1 http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2002141&search=1 http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2074&search=1
The differences are too small to be significant, and certainly not a reasons to buy a Toyota if you like one of the other brands better for other reasons (style, features, cost, etc.). Now if you just want to prove how smart you are for buying a Toyota instead of a Mercedes, I won't argue with you.
Ed
FanJet - 01 Nov 2005 14:24 GMT >> It just amazes me that you can buy a car for >> $15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > more crap than Mercedes owners. Isn't it possible this skews the > results? Precisely and from what I've read, Americans who buy American branded cars are the bitchyest of the lot. At the same time, they're the least likely to perform routine maintenance properly. Whereas, Toyota and Honda owners typically do routine maintenance and tend to overlook things that would have their American counterparts at the dealership complaining. And, when something does go wrong, they blames themselves. Go figure.
Art - 01 Nov 2005 17:53 GMT Well said.
Also consider the value of the American car versus Toyota. I will be the first to tell you that my 2001 Avalon is more reliable than my 99 300M. I am saying this even though my 300M is older and has more than twice the miles but I am willing to anticipate that the Avalon will have virtually nothing go wrong with it for the next few years. Even so the 300M is the better value. You get a lot more for the money and even though you might have a repair every few years, the Avalon has constant designed in annoyances which cannot be fixed like seatbelts with inadequate retraction springs, rattles and clicks, sinking brake pedal as the engine slows down, a worthless auto climate control system, and much more.
>> It just amazes me that you can buy a car for >> $15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Ed Hachiroku - 01 Nov 2005 23:35 GMT > Well said. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > springs, rattles and clicks, sinking brake pedal as the engine slows down, a > worthless auto climate control system, and much more. HOLY CRAP!!!! Art said something nice about his Toyota over his Crapsler!!! ;)
>>> It just amazes me that you can buy a car for >>> $15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >> >> Ed Dan J.S. - 01 Nov 2005 20:01 GMT >> It just amazes me that you can buy a car for >> $15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Ed You do bring up good points, but keep in mind one important thing. When JD Power comes out with these studies, the auto manufacturers do not challenge them. They take the data and work with it. Many industries live and die by this report. It has a lot of scrutiny, and is in line with other independents like Consumer Reports.
However, I can tell you, even though I am a Toyota person, I would probably buy the Ford F-150 truck. I think Ford has that one built well. I don't think a Tundra can touch it. JD Power rates the F150 very well, and I believe them enough to put my money there.
C. E. White - 01 Nov 2005 23:21 GMT > However, I can tell you, even though I am a Toyota person, I would > probably buy the Ford F-150 truck. I think Ford has that one built well. I > don't think a Tundra can touch it. JD Power rates the F150 very well, and > I believe them enough to put my money there. LOL - I am almost your opposite. In general I don't like Toyotas, but prefer the Tundra (or even Tacoma) over the current F150. It has nothing to do with reliability, since I think neither has much of an advantage in that area. I am more interested in features. F150s have turned into poorly designed cars. The bed sides are too high. The whole truck is jacked up too much. The interiors are too pimp like. The F150s are too big, etc. etc. Actually the current crop of mid-sized Japanese trucks are probably closer to what I need (Tacoma, Frontier). Originally I wanted a Tundra, but the Frontier is moving up on the list. I need to go try one - except I decided last year to stick it out with my old F150 for another couple of years in hopes that someone would offer a decent mid-sized 4WD diesel powered truck. A Frontier with a turbo diesel would be nice. However, if the price for the Tundra had been anywhere close to reasonable, I would have bought one last year. Somehow I never could get past the idea that not one Toyota dealer in the area was willing to sell me a Tundra for less than I could buy an F250 for. I did not want the F250 (it was too much truck for my application), but it just irritated me that the local Ford dealer, without any pressure, offered me a price on a 4 door F250 that was thousands lower than the best price I could get on a Tundra extra cab. I got so disgusted I just dropped out of the truck market.
Ed
Mike Hunter - 01 Nov 2005 20:47 GMT If you look at J DO POWERS results is percentages, rather than as lists from top to bottom as they present their surveys, you will see the ALL have problems and they are ALL within the same percentages clustered around 2%. J D POWERS are designed so that every manufacture can point to them as a sales tool. What manufacture would pay their subscription rate is they could not use something from the surveys? They best and only true survey is sales numbers. More buyer believe the Camry is the best mid size sedan for the price, that is why it is number one. The same reason the Ford F150 is the number one vehicle, total sales and why GM make the best cars and trucks, since they sell more than any other manufacture. As well as why Wal-Mart is the number one retailer in the world, sales. YOU may prefer a particular retailer buy more buyer prefer Wal-Mart obviously
mike hunt
>> It just amazes me that you can buy a car for >> $15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Ed C. E. White - 01 Nov 2005 22:38 GMT > If you look at J DO POWERS results is percentages, rather than as lists > from top to bottom as they present their surveys, you will see the ALL [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > mike hunt Mike, your spin assumes buyers have good information and make purchasing decisions for rational reasons. Reliability is only one factor people use when purchasing a vehicle. It might be that F150s have terrible reliability, but because of price, style, features, etc people are willing to buy them despite poor reliability (and no, I don't think F150s are unreliable, I am just using it as an example). And what about brand loyalty? Last year was the first time in my life, my Father actually considered buying something other than a Ford (he ended up in a Ford anyhow). I know lots of people that only shop for their pet brand of cars. I know more than few people who are only willing to look at Toyotas. Also, you are totally ignoring the effects of advertising. Advertising must work, otherwise companies would not spend so much on it. I am so tired of car ads, I almost can't watch TV. In case you missed it, it is Ford Toyotathon Truck Drive to be Number One Moving Forward Switch Month again......and again.......
As for Wal*Mart - I HATE Wal*Mart, but I go there all the time. The local Wal*Marts are dirty, cluttered, crowded, staffed with surly workers, and generally depressing. However, they usually have everything I want and I only need go in one store that is relatively close to my home. I can put up with the general crappy condition of the stores because they save me time. I'd actually be willing to pay more for stuff in nicer stores with friendlier people, except Wal*Mart has driven all those out of business. When I can, I stay out of stores altogether and just order stuff over the internet. I have noticed that the unionized workers at one of the local grocery store chains are a lot happier and friendlier than the workers at Wal*Mart, or Food Lion (my other least favorite store). I wonder why? The prices for the groceries I buy aren't much different between the stores (despite lots of "super low price" ads), so I go to the store with the happy people to buy my groceries. Heck, sometimes I have to fight them off when they want to carry out my groceries for me. At Wal*Mart, I am lucky if I can force them to check me out.
Ed
Mike Hunter - 02 Nov 2005 22:32 GMT So that is why the Camry is the number one selling mid size sedan in the US . ;)
>> If you look at J DO POWERS results is percentages, rather than as lists >> from top to bottom as they present their surveys, you will see the ALL [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Toyotathon Truck Drive to be Number One Moving Forward Switch Month > again......and again....... C. E. White - 03 Nov 2005 15:28 GMT > So that is why the Camry is the number one selling mid size sedan in the US > . ;) If I knew that, I think I'd have the secret to life. I have ridden in quite a few Camry's and never really understood the attraction. Boring styling, mediocre appointments, mediocre performance, all at a premium price. I'd love to claim it was Toyota advertising, but to me the Toyota national ads are at best enigmatic (exactly what did/does the "Oh What A Feeling" or ":Moving Forward" slogans mean?). The local Toyota ads are just insulting. One of the local Toyota dealers is now running ads where dogs are hyping his cars (you have to see them - they are really cheesy). I know a lot of women like Camry's, but I am not sure why. But then I never understood why my Sisters both decided they wanted Volkswagens (at least they learned from those mistakes). Maybe it is the favorable rating from Consumer Reports. But then my experience with Consumer Reports has been that if they recommend something, you should definitely not buy that product. My Father is an avid Consumer Reports reader and he constantly buys things because of their recommendations. So far he has suffered through crappy vacuum cleaners and TVs because of their recommendations. When he was buying a new car last year he decided he wanted a Highlander based on the Consumer Reports reviews. Fortunately he actually tried several vehicles before he bought one (actually I made him try several - initially he just wanted me to go buy him a Highlander). After actually trying a few vehicles, he bought a Ford Freestyle.
Ed
Dana - 04 Nov 2005 04:54 GMT Let me tell you something you may not know , you take a ride in a Camry with 80000 miles on it and it probablly will ride almost as good as it did when it was new . Domestic makes , when they get miles on them just don't ride nearly as well . -Dana
>> So that is why the Camry is the number one selling mid size sedan in the > US [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Ed Scott in Florida - 04 Nov 2005 13:57 GMT >Let me tell you something you may not know , you take a ride in a Camry with >80000 miles on it and it probablly will ride almost as good as it did when >it was new . Domestic makes , when they get miles on them just don't ride >nearly as well . > > -Dana My '92 Corolla Wagon rides as good as it did when new...
Try that with a domestic....
LOL
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Mike Hunter - 04 Nov 2005 17:44 GMT My 71 domestic, with nearly 300K on the clock, rides and drives as good as it did when new ;)
mike hunt
>>Let me tell you something you may not know , you take a ride in a Camry >>with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > LOL C. E. White - 04 Nov 2005 19:25 GMT >>Let me tell you something you may not know , you take a ride in a Camry >>with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Try that with a domestic.... I have - No problem.
Ed
Scott in Florida - 04 Nov 2005 19:35 GMT >>>Let me tell you something you may not know , you take a ride in a Camry >>>with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >I have - No problem. What make/model?
 Signature Scott in Florida
C. E. White - 07 Nov 2005 15:09 GMT > >>>Let me tell you something you may not know , you take a ride in a Camry > >>>with [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > What make/model? My personal cars - 1972 Ford Pinto 1973 Ford Pinto 1986 Mercury Sable 1986 Ford Ranger 1989 Ford Taurus Wagon 1992 F150 1997 Ford Expedition 2003 Ford Expedtion (the ride is fine, but the Michelin tires I put on 30,000K ago are noisy as heck - originals were fine at 50k)
My parent's recent cars ( I assume you don't want me to go back to the '50s) 1982 Ford Country Squire Wagon 1992 Grand Marquis 2000 Grand Marquis 1989 Ford Ranger 1992 Ford Ranger 1999 Ford Ranger
I only included "domestic" vehicles that were actually driven more than 80,000 miles. I did not include a Ford Fiesta I owned, since it is not really a domestic - but it was riding just fine when last seen at around 150k miles. And my Father / myself owned a Ford Courier, also not a "domestic.". It never rode good, was jsut as bad at 80k as at 0k. My Sister also owned a 1992 Escort that was riding fine at around 60k miles when it was totaled when a truck hit it.
Ed
C. E. White - 04 Nov 2005 19:25 GMT > Let me tell you something you may not know , you take a ride in a Camry > with 80000 miles on it and it probablly will ride almost as good as it did > when it was new . Domestic makes , when they get miles on them just don't > ride nearly as well . Why do you say that? My 1986 Sable at 135,000 miles with the original shock rode just fine. My 14 year old F150, 100,000 miles is till on the original suspension components, and rides as good as when it was new - and it has seen a lot more stressful service than your Camry. My Mother has owned a couple of Grand Marquis and they never had any ride problems, even when well past 8 years old with more than 80,000 miles.
When did you last buy a new American car?
Ed
Mike Hunter - 01 Nov 2005 20:18 GMT Yes
mike hunt
> It just amazes me that you can buy a car for > $15,000 like the Corolla and it will have a better [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > JD Power survey for mechanical dependability > compared to just 3 stars for a '97 S-Class Mercedes.
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