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Car Forum / Toyota / Toyota Cars / November 2005Ford vs. Toyota safety
http://www.autosafety.org/casresults.php?find=toyota&x=0&y=0 Do a search for "Ford" = 278 results Do a search for "Toyota" = 73 results Quote: At least 20 law enforcement officers have been killed in fiery collisions involving Ford's Crown Victoria Police Interceptor, due to an inadequate fuel system. The civilian platform of these vehicles includes the Ford Crown Victoria, Mercury Grand Marquis, and Lincoln Town Car, all with the same faulty fuel system. Ford has fixed the police vehicles, but refuses to recall the civilian cars. With 12 safety recalls to date and 7 defect investigations, the Ford Focus proved to be an embarrassment to Ford Motor Company and its President William Clay Ford, who was trying to stress quality in the wake of the Ford Explorer/Firestone ATX, Wilderness AT tire debacle. Not since General Motors introduced its ill-fated X-car in 1980 (Buick Skylark, Chevrolet Citation, Oldsmobile Omega and Pontiac Phoenix) which had 13 recalls in its first two years has a manufacturer had so many recalls. Among the Focus recalls are 351,000 2000 models whose roof pillars can cause head injuries in crashes and 203,700 2000 models whose left rear wheel falls off. More old news. The Focus has been on every list of best buys since 2001. The fire thing was the shark lawyers way of trying to get around workmens compensation laws, but they lost that angle when the CV was exonerated by the NHTSA investigation several years ago. One my youngens is a Corporal in the PA state police and says troopers prefer the CV over any other police car. mike hunt > http://www.autosafety.org/casresults.php?find=toyota&x=0&y=0 > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > injuries in crashes and 203,700 2000 models whose left rear wheel falls > off. > More old news. The Focus has been on every list of best buys since 2001. > The fire thing was the shark lawyers way of trying to get around workmens [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > mike hunt I know, because its the only rear wheel drive large sedan(GM exited the market years back). This issue was corrected, so no doubt they prefer it now. Talk to any highway patrol cop and see for yourself which they prefer for high speed pursuit. The PA State Police do not allow their FWD cars to be used for patrol work, to dangerous. When Ford tested CV for the NHTSA, against the two other police models from GM and Chrysler, under the same controlled 50 mph crash tests the other two were completely destroyed. When the parked CV was hit the striking vehicle went in as far as the back seat. When the Chevy was hit at 50 mph the vehicle went in into the front seat. When the Dodge was hit the vehicle went completely through and over the car! Do some research of the NHTSA site of its investigation into CV fires before you make anymore foolish comments WBMA ;) mike >> More old news. The Focus has been on every list of best buys since 2001. >> The fire thing was the shark lawyers way of trying to get around workmens [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > market years back). This issue was corrected, so no doubt they prefer it > now. > Talk to any highway patrol cop and see for yourself which they prefer > for high speed pursuit. The PA State Police do Fortunately, for those of us forced to share the highway with these pretend racecar drivers, high speed pursuits are a no-no for more and more officers. If your home is ever robbed, and some nuts kills one of you kids, when you call the cops don't forget to remind them you don't want them chasing him down the highway if they see him LOL mike >> Talk to any highway patrol cop and see for yourself which they prefer >> for high speed pursuit. The PA State Police do > > Fortunately, for those of us forced to share the highway with these > pretend racecar drivers, high speed pursuits are a no-no for more and > more officers. > If your home is ever robbed, and some nuts kills one of you kids, when you > call the cops don't forget to remind them you don't want them chasing him > down the highway if they see him LOL > > mike they use fords because ford has packages, options and rear wheel drive. Toyota is not interested in making squad cars. It's a niche market. Remember when Mopar had the police market tied up back in the sixties? Their 440 cid would and could outrun a ford in a heartbeat. > >> Talk to any highway patrol cop and see for yourself which they prefer > >> for high speed pursuit. The PA State Police do > > > > Fortunately, for those of us forced to share the highway with these > > pretend racecar drivers, high speed pursuits are a no-no for more and > > more officers.  SignatureGM and Chrysler offer squad cars but buyers that need vehicles than handle well, like patrol cars, will continue to buy RWD vehicles. mike >> If your home is ever robbed, and some nuts kills one of you kids, when >> you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Remember when Mopar had the police market tied up back in the sixties? > Their 440 cid would and could outrun a ford in a heartbeat. > GM and Chrysler offer squad cars but buyers that need vehicles than handle > well, like patrol cars, will continue to buy RWD vehicles. > > mike Yup, the rear wheel drives are still better balanced weight wise and handling is more stable. The FWDs are hard to control on ice once the rear end breaks. It gets real interesting. > >> If your home is ever robbed, and some nuts kills one of you kids, when > >> you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Remember when Mopar had the police market tied up back in the sixties? > > Their 440 cid would and could outrun a ford in a heartbeat. SignatureOn wet roads as well. The PSP banned FWD cars from patrol work years ago, after several troopers were killed in FWD cars. The feds gave them FWD cars to enforce the federal speed limit on the Interstate highways under the '55 Alive' program. The few unmarked FWD cars they do have today are only used by detectives and those troopers on administrative duty. They won't even pull over speeders, who may run, they radio to troopers in the area on patrol. mike >> GM and Chrysler offer squad cars but buyers that need vehicles than >> handle [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> > Remember when Mopar had the police market tied up back in the sixties? >> > Their 440 cid would and could outrun a ford in a heartbeat. > On wet roads as well. The PSP banned FWD cars from patrol work years > ago, after several troopers were killed in FWD cars. The feds gave [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > administrative duty. They won't even pull over speeders, who may > run, they radio to troopers in the area on patrol. Proper vehicle choice and a decent driving school would fix this. They need the latter in any event. Ya right. How many FWD race cars do you know of? Indy banned FWD cars many years ago after a driver or two where killed because of the poor handling of FWD at speed mike >> On wet roads as well. The PSP banned FWD cars from patrol work years >> ago, after several troopers were killed in FWD cars. The feds gave [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Proper vehicle choice and a decent driving school would fix this. They > need the latter in any event. > Ya right. How many FWD race cars do you know of? Indy banned FWD > cars many years ago after a driver or two where killed because of the > poor handling of FWD at speed So, what does Indy have to do with cops misusing public roads??? At least in NC, the Highway patrol has split their recent purchases between Ford Crown Victorias and Chevrolet Impalas with a few older Camaros still around as pursuit vehicles. Neither the CV or Impala is really fast enough to catch the fastest civilian cars. I personally would prefer that high speed pursuits be avoided. I suspect the Dodge Charger will soon be the police vehicle of choice... Ed > On wet roads as well. The PSP banned FWD cars from patrol work years ago, > after several troopers were killed in FWD cars. The feds gave them FWD [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > mike > they use fords because ford has packages, options and rear wheel drive. > Toyota is not interested in making squad cars. It's a niche market. > Remember when Mopar had the police market tied up back in the sixties? > Their 440 cid would and could outrun a ford in a heartbeat. How far back do you want to go? A 1969 Ford 428 NC Highway Patrol Car would outrun a 1968 or 1970 Dodge 440 NC Highway Patrol Car. These are the only years I know for sure. Ed >>they use fords because ford has packages, options and rear wheel drive. >>Toyota is not interested in making squad cars. It's a niche market. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ed I am not a Dodge man but only in your dreams. Those old 440 wedges were some real stump pullers and not that the 428 was bad, the 440 was better. Alrond here in the time frame the hiway patrol drove stripped chevys with 427's in them and they were seriously fast, Ford never made much of a impression around here in police market back them and the police 427's had better top end than the police 428's did too >>>they use fords because ford has packages, options and rear wheel drive. >>>Toyota is not interested in making squad cars. It's a niche market. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > impression around here in police market back them and the police 427's had > better top end than the police 428's did too I am only going by what the local highway patrol officer told me back then. He was really unhappy when they replaced his Ford with a Dodge. I never drove either myself. I do know that none of the kids with hot cars had any trouble out running the local Dodges. If fact, when I was in high school, the "boys" thought Dodges were a joke. The hottest cars were mostly Cheives with a couple of Fords. Just before the local Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth dealership folded for good, the new owner ordered two very fast cars, a Hemi Cuda and a 440 Six pack Challenger. Unfortunately no one I knew ever tried them out. We also had a Boss 429 Mustang in the next town. I wish I could have tried that one myself. The performance car of choice was an SS Chevelle (either 396 or 454). One guy had a very Fast 429 Super Cobra Jet Torino. The one fast Dodge in the area was a 440 Charger, but nobody ever seemed impressed by it. I think the most impressive local car was a 1067 Corvette with a "hot" 396. It was owned by a local guy who worked at the Chevy dealer. It was legendary in the area. The local Police department had a 427 Impala. The only time it was driven hard was in when they took it in for service. The mechanics always had to take it out to "blow out" the carbon. I never had any sort of performance car until I was well into my 40's and even then it was only a Mustang GT (which I suspect would have outrun the typical early 70's patrol car). Ed > If your home is ever robbed, and some nuts kills one of you kids, > when you call the cops don't forget to remind them you don't want > them chasing him down the highway if they see him LOL This is purely cop talk and almost never true. If they spent some time on their feet patrolling the neighborhood, odds are my hypothetical robbery wouldn't have taken place to begin with. That may be fine some folks live but obviously for some of us our next door neighbor lives miles away. LOL mike >> If your home is ever robbed, and some nuts kills one of you kids, >> when you call the cops don't forget to remind them you don't want [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > their feet patrolling the neighborhood, odds are my hypothetical robbery > wouldn't have taken place to begin with. > > This is purely cop talk and almost never true. If they spent some time on > > their feet patrolling the neighborhood, odds are my hypothetical robbery > > wouldn't have taken place to begin with. A patrol officer can cover much more area and respond faster if in a vehicle. Motorized patrols are much more effective than foot patrols, in general. Ask any chief of any major metro PD. Having said that, if there is a specific localized problem area, it could benefit from foot patrol. A smart Chief will utilize both, upon a scrutiny of data to support either one in a given situation. Signature>>> This is purely cop talk and almost never true. If they spent some >>> time on their feet patrolling the neighborhood, odds are my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > foot patrol. A smart Chief will utilize both, upon a scrutiny of > data to support either one in a given situation. Radio is faster than either and there aren't any physical laws preventing a cruiser from picking up a foot officer when needed. Specific local problems are exactly *the* problem in metro areas - no secret there. As you said, a smart chief will use both but you don't see many foot patrols anymore. Backing up a bit, a smart chief will also prevent dangerous, superfluous high-speed car chases since they're very rarely needed not to mention the fact that the drivers nor cars are qualified for such stunts. >A patrol officer can cover much more area and respond faster if in a vehicle. \ True. >Motorized patrols are much more effective than foot patrols, in general. It would seem so, but real life says the correlations between motorized patrols and crime rates are very low (earliest evidence was a Kansas City study in the 1970s), much lower than for foot patrols or, when they're impractical, increased community relations. >Ask any chief of any major metro PD. Are they the same chiefs who think current drug law enforcement is effective? >> A patrol officer can cover much more area and respond faster if in a >> vehicle. \ [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Are they the same chiefs who think current drug law enforcement is > effective? I'd say very few chiefs think current drug law enforcement is effective. Further, most must know that the laws themselves are completely ineffective. I'm sure they'd tell you they don't make the laws and they'd be correct. OTH, they are in a position to tell the Rambos in their care that high speed pursuits are not allowed. >> If your home is ever robbed, and some nuts kills one of you kids, >> when you call the cops don't forget to remind them you don't want [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > their feet patrolling the neighborhood, odds are my hypothetical robbery > wouldn't have taken place to begin with. The last time my home was robbed, the Police gave me a report and did nothing - even after I called them up and told them the name of the guy who tried to cash a check using the blank checks he had stolen from my house. I talked to an officer about this later, and he pretty much admitted they don't spend much time investigating home robberies. And I am very sure, they wouldn't arrive at a home in time to pursue a robber at high speed or otherwise. Ed > Talk to any highway patrol cop and see for yourself which they prefer for > high speed pursuit. The PA State Police do [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > mike My only foolish comment was agreeing that the police dept prefers the cars you mentioned because they were RWD. This is because no one offers an alternative any more. >http://www.autosafety.org/casresults.php?find=toyota&x=0&y=0 > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >same faulty fuel system. Ford has fixed the police vehicles, but refuses to >recall the civilian cars. This one is a bit over-hyped - many of these flaming police Crown Vic's were parked on the shoulder of a freeway and got rear-ended by a car doing 55 to 80, or more, usually piloted by a drunk driver that was "hypnotized" and heading toward the blinking lights... For the average citizen it would be a case of Wrong Place, Wrong Time - but the officers are paid to be there at that time. There are some things you can't design for. Short of installing full-on racing style Fuel Cells in each car, there's little you can do when they get smacked in the back THAT hard. You would also have to build the cars with racing bucket seats, 5-point harnesses and a fully integrated roll cage, too - if the fuel fire didn't kill them, the collision forces would. --<< Bruce >>-- SignatureBruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. >>http://www.autosafety.org/casresults.php?find=toyota&x=0&y=0 >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > For the average citizen it would be a case of Wrong Place, Wrong > Time - but the officers are paid to be there at that time. You'd be surprised. I got hit nearly like this when I was at the back of a slowdown on the freeway. Stopped, and waiting for traffic to resume, I was hit when the next guy behind me didn't notice all the cars with the brakelights on, stopped on the road. I got a glancing blow, not a full rear-ender, but it was close. I've always suspected he was on his cell, but have no proof other than he spent most of his time at the scene and at the police station answering it and yakking away. Toyota is much safer because when I work on my Ford I get angry at all the stupid design quirks and low quality factory parts, and this causes me to kill many, many innocent victims. OTOH it's easier to wash blood off Ford paint. > http://www.autosafety.org/casresults.php?find=toyota&x=0&y=0 You need to consider the source of this information. Autosafety.org is run by trial lawyer for the benefit of trial lawyers. > Do a search for "Ford" = 278 results Meaningless numer unless you you examin each one for significance. Is a recall to inspect a seat back latch on 500 cars as significant as a recall to inspect 700,000 vehicles with potentiall bad balljoits? > Do a search for "Toyota" = 73 results See below > Quote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > same faulty fuel system. Ford has fixed the police vehicles, but refuses > to recall the civilian cars. For Crown Victorias go read - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/national/main524280.shtml "The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said the car exceeds federal standards for fuel system safety and the rate of fires was no greater than with Chevrolet Caprice police cars..... "NHTSA said it is aware of only four fire-related rear crashes resulting in four deaths in more than 2.6 million civilian Crown Victoria cars." A Ford Crown Victoria has a much better injury loss rating than a Toyota Avalon or Camry. So, if you are worried about safety, you should be driving the Crown Victoria (see http://www.iihs.org/brochures/ictl/ictl_4dr.html). > With 12 safety recalls to date and 7 defect investigations, the Ford Focus > proved to be an embarrassment to Ford Motor Company and its President This is exactly the sort of crap that drives me crazy. No single Focus model has been recalled 12 or 13 times. All the various Focus models from the last 5 years have been recalled 13 times combined. However, not all Focus models/years have been recalled. "Focus" is not a single car line. It is made up of 4 related but distinct models. Some models from some years have been recalled, most have not. Here is a brief history of Foci recalls: 2000 Focus 00S20S1 OCT 00 Recall - `A' Pillar Trim Replacement - 351,000 vehicles - changes shape of a trim piece 01S24 AUG 01 Recall - Defective Wiper Motor Switch/Gear Cover - not Focus specific 00S55 JAN 01 Recall - Rear Seat Back Hinge Replacement - 95,000 vehicles Focus ZX Wagon Only 00S50 DEC 00 Recall - Decklid Wire Harness Replacement - 74,500 vehicles, wagons / hatchbacks not affected 00S31 OCT 00 Recall - Wheel Bearing Inspection/Retainer Installation - 203,700 vehicles, inspection of wheel bearing retaining nut to verify proper installation. 99S35 DEC 99 Recall - Speed Control Cable & Servo Replacement - 534 vehicles, SVT models only. 05S27S1 APR 05 Recall - Rear Door Latch Inspection/Door Seal Install (4 Door Models only) 03N01 JAN 04 Recall - Fuel Delivery Module Defect 02S41 JAN 03 Recall - Pinch Bolt Torque & Battery Cable Routing 02S42 JAN 03 Recall - Pinch Bolt Torque and Battery Cable Routing (really same as 02S41) 2001 Focus 01S24 AUG 01 Recall - Defective Wiper Motor Switch/Gear Cover - see 2000, not Focus specific 01S13 MAR 01 Recall - Seat Back Recliner Handle Spring Replacement - 8,500 vehicles damaged by a test, dealer to inspect / replace as necessary 00S55 JAN 01 Recall - Rear Seat Back Hinge Replacement 05S27S1 APR 05 Recall - Rear Door Latch Inspection/Door Seal Install (4 Door Models only) 03N01 JAN 04 Recall - Fuel Delivery Module Defect 02S41 JAN 03 Recall - Pinch Bolt Torque & Battery Cable Routing 02S42 JAN 03 Recall - Pinch Bolt Torque and Battery Cable Routing (really same as 02S41) 2002 Focus 05S27S1 APR 05 Recall - Rear Door Latch Inspection/Door Seal Install (4 Doord Models only) 02S37 APR 02 Recall - Speed Control Cable/Throttle Body Defect 2003 Focus No Safety Recalls 2004 Focus No Safety Recalls 2005 Focus No Safety Recalls You seem so up on Ford Recalls, do you have any idea how Toyota stacks up? How many safety recalls have affect Toyotas in recent years? 2000 Avalon - 1 00V154000 Camry - 2 00V154000, 01V012000 Solara - 1 00V154000 Echo - 3 00V256000, 01V326000, 04V455000 Celica - 2 04V566000, 04V45500, RAV4 - 2 00V211000, 00V212000 Tacoma - 1 01E041000 Tundra -2 01E041000, 99V347003 2001 4Runner - 1 05V225000 Avalon - 1 01V072000 Camry - 2 01V072000, 01V012000 Celica - 1 04V566000 Echo -1 02V268000 Highlander - 3 02V208000, 04V181000, 01V228000 Prius - 1 00V285000 Sienna - 1 01V072000 Tacoma - 2 03V189000, 05V225000, 2002 4Runner - 1 05V225000 Camry - 3 04V346000, 01V372000, 01V306000 Celica - 1 03V074000 Echo - 1 02V268000 Highlander - 2 02V208000, 04V181000 Sequoia - 1 05V225000 2003 4Runner - 2 02V339000, 03V146000 Camry - 1 04V346000 Celica - 1 03V074000 Corolla - 1 02V074001 Highlander - 2 02V339000, 04V181000 Sequoia - 1 05V225000 Tacoma - 2 03V189000, 05V225000 2004 Camry - 2 04V346000, 04V595000 Corolla - 1 03V366000 Highlander -1 04V181000 Prius - 1 04V558000 Sequoia - 1 05V225000 Sienna - 2 03V291000, 05V327000 Tacoma - 2 05V225000, 04V214000 2005 Avalon - 1 05V227000 Camry - 1 04V595000 Scion TC - 1 05V483000 Tacoma - 2 05V302000, 05V050000 Tundra - 2 05V123000, 05V328000 So, counting distinct recalls by model (only counting recall programs once, not once per year), in the last 5 years there have been 3 Avalon recalls, 7 Camry recalls, 1 Solara recall, 3 Echo recalls, 3 Celica recalls, 2 RAV4 recall, 7 Tacoma recalls, 4 Tundra recalls, 3 4Runner recalls, 5 Highlander recalls, 2 Prius recalls (plus one pending), 3 Sienna recalls, and 1 Sequoia recall. If you break down the Focus recalls by model, instead of lumping them all together, the most recalled model has only 6 recalls (4 door sedan). So, if you are fair, you should be screaming about Camrys which have been recalled more often than 4 door Focus models over the last 5 years. The Tacoma has been recalled even more often, but the model was significantly redesigned in the last 5 years. If you consider the number of vehicles affected by recall, well Camrys are the #1 selling car - you do the math. You should also consider that the Focus was a new design when introduced in 2000. There have been no safety recalls for Focus models made in the last three years. The Camry, a very mature design (in other words - old, stale, obsolete, tired) is still generating recalls after 6 years. And you also need to factor in Toyota stonewalling tactics. They never have a problem till the whole world comes down on them...... I'll be waiting for your explanation of why Foci are bad and Camrys are good. Regards, Ed White >> http://www.autosafety.org/casresults.php?find=toyota&x=0&y=0 > [quoted text clipped - 191 lines] > > Ed White You'll never get it. In fact, if you skate around the auto transmission issues, Accords are better than Camrys and there's no question that the '06 civic is much better than an '06 Corolla. Properly optioned, a Focus is a better value than either and fun to drive. Let's see - what's left in the Toyota fun-to-drive stable? Bozos dropped the Celica just as I was thinking a GTS. > You'll never get it. In fact, if you skate around the auto transmission > issues, Accords are better than Camrys and there's no question that the > '06 civic is much better than an '06 Corolla. Properly optioned, a Focus > is a better value than either and fun to drive. Let's see - what's left in > the Toyota fun-to-drive stable? Bozos dropped the Celica just as I was > thinking a GTS. Huh? I was talking about safety recalls. Transmisisons? The only automatic tranmission I've personally had fail was a Toyota....so go figure. Which transmission issue am I skirting around in this thread? Ed |
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