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Car Forum / UK Car Forums / 4x4 Cars (UK group) / August 2005Vehicle for occassional towing
I'm looking for a used 4X4 for general use and occasional towing. A Trooper or Defender would be fine but I'd like more mpg. An estate able to tow over 1500Kg would be fine (if I ignore the ridiculous notion that it must be able to tow trailer max gross weight) Parameters are: Good mpg Low purchase cost (a few years old) Low annual mileage - 8K Occassional towing of a pony + trailer (up to 1500KG loaded) 4wd - just for towing (so best if it can be switched off) Cheap and easy to DIY maintain Reliable Low insurance Any suggestions?? if your looking for occassional towing dont get a land rover. you will always be towing - or shoould i say being towed. hehe sitting back, ready to take the flack ;¬) > if your looking for occassional towing dont get a land rover. you will > always be towing - or shoould i say being towed. I've noticed the differences in opinion. I was speaking to someone last week though with a P reg Discovery diesel which they loved and which they reckoned gave nearly 40 mpg - a good bit higher than the figures I seen written. That would have been a strong contender but for all the bad press they get on Usenet. So what is the best 4X4 estate for towing 1.5 T? Economical, durable, easily maintained? >> if your looking for occassional towing dont get a land rover. you will >> always be towing - or shoould i say being towed. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > So what is the best 4X4 estate for towing 1.5 T? Economical, durable, > easily maintained? Volvo XC70 D5. Huw >>> if your looking for occassional towing dont get a land rover. you will >>> always be towing - or shoould i say being towed. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Volvo XC70 D5. Thanks HUW. You seem to know what you are talking about but this is too much money. I hope to get fixed up for around £1K to £3K Good mpg Low purchase cost (a few years old) Low annual mileage - 8K Occassional towing of a pony + trailer (up to 1500KG loaded) 4wd - just for towing (so best if it can be switched off) Cheap and easy to DIY maintain Reliable Low insurance I was thinking that an estate would be more practical for everyday use - more room, lighter and more aerodynamic so more mpg. If there isn't an obvious one, I'll look at proper 4X4s again. >>>> if your looking for occassional towing dont get a land rover. you will >>>> always be towing - or shoould i say being towed. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Reliable > Low insurance What you want is a miracle. Failing one turning up soon then the closest you will get is a ten year old Subaru Legacy. Huw >>>> So what is the best 4X4 estate for towing 1.5 T? Economical, durable, >>>> easily maintained? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > What you want is a miracle. Failing one turning up soon then the closest > you will get is a ten year old Subaru Legacy. I suppose I do. I've stumbled upon a table (4X4 mag) of specs and see what you mean about the Volvo XC70 D5 . . . 37.7 mpg (compared with Trooper 3.0 at 26.9) and can tow 1800 KG. The Nissan X-Trail 2.2 dCi 136 T-Spec is another that stands out - 39.2 mpg/can tow 2000 KG. /insurance group 9. - sounds a good combination but still a bit pricey. Legacy 2.5i Outback/33.2 mpg, can tow 1800 KG - but insurance group 13 Freelander 2.0 TD4/37.2 mpg/1800KG/ins group10. (Should I definitley avoid this one?) The Hilux looks reasonable too - are they all pickups or is there a one with a complete hardtop over the rear? >The Nissan X-Trail 2.2 dCi 136 T-Spec is another that stands out - 39.2 >mpg/can tow 2000 KG. /insurance group 9. - sounds a good combination but >still a bit pricey. But brilliant tow cars by all accounts. Worth the dosh - meets your criteria perfectly. Forget the T Spec and you'll get it for a better price.  SignatureR o o n e y "I always knew the entire Green party were nutters" - Ken Livingstone > Legacy 2.5i Outback/33.2 mpg, can tow 1800 KG - but insurance group 13 Ten years old = purchase price of less than £2k. Insure third party, fire and theft only. Huw >> Legacy 2.5i Outback/33.2 mpg, can tow 1800 KG - but insurance group 13 > > Ten years old = purchase price of less than £2k. Insure third party, fire > and theft only. Yes, I expect I would do that. I'm currently paying just over £100pa 3rd party, fire and theft for my current group 2 vehicle. You said buying an LPG Range Rover would be russian roulette. What would be a safer buy?? Trooper, Shogun, Landcruiser, Hilux OK ? What questions should I ask? What are the pitfalls? >>> Legacy 2.5i Outback/33.2 mpg, can tow 1800 KG - but insurance group 13 >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > be > a safer buy?? Anything. > Trooper, Shogun, Landcruiser, Hilux OK ? Do you really want a pick-up truck? If not, forget the Hilux. What questions should > I ask? What are the pitfalls? Just the normal precautions when buying any second hand vehicle. General mechanical condition and look out for dodgy steering boxes and chassis rust. Some rust can be acceptable as it can be patched welded but there are some vehicles out there that are beyond economic repair, especially late Eighties and early Nineties Shogun and Trooper. Huw >> You said buying an LPG Range Rover would be russian roulette. What would >> be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Do you really want a pick-up truck? If not, forget the Hilux. The Hilux serf looks ok, but I haven't ridden in one. > What questions should >> I ask? What are the pitfalls? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > are some vehicles out there that are beyond economic repair, especially > late Eighties and early Nineties Shogun and Trooper. I think I misunderstood - obviously the roulette related to the Range Rover bit and not the LPG. Thanks for the warning about rust in the older Shoguns and Troopers though. I've had enough of welding. > The Hilux serf looks ok, but I haven't ridden in one. The Toyota Hilux Surf is a good towing vehicle. Avoid the 2.4L diesel as the head has a tendancy to crack (unless it has been replaced with new design head). The 3.0L TD is a cracking vehicle though for towing- prices start around £3K these days. More info here on the UK owners website: http://www.hiluxsurf.co.uk/ Ecconomy wise expect around 25mpg. Nevillef >> The Hilux serf looks ok, but I haven't ridden in one. > > The Toyota Hilux Surf is a good towing vehicle. Avoid the 2.4L diesel as > the head has a tendancy to crack (unless it has been replaced with new > design head). I notice that quite a few of the ads mention its had a head replacement. I suppose they are OK if they've had that? >>> if your looking for occassional towing dont get a land rover. you will >>> always be towing - or shoould i say being towed. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> written. That would have been a strong contender but for all the bad >> press they get on Usenet. ah simple he lived at the top of a hill, it broke down at the bottom and got towed back up. there you go 100 mile/gal >> if your looking for occassional towing dont get a land rover. you will >> always be towing - or shoould i say being towed. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >So what is the best 4X4 estate for towing 1.5 T? Economical, durable, easily >maintained? I wouldn't worry too much about mpg if you're only doing 8000 miles a year. SignatureR o o n e y "I always knew the entire Green party were nutters" - Ken Livingstone > I wouldn't worry too much about mpg if you're only doing 8000 miles a > year. A very sensible statement, but the fact is I do. Mileage may increase and if its gonna gulp fuel at 25mpg I won't want to use it. I'd rather pay a bit more and get something that will do closer to 40. (I'm used to 50 - 60 mpg and bracing myself for the shock) >> I wouldn't worry too much about mpg if you're only doing 8000 miles a >> year. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >more and get something that will do closer to 40. (I'm used to 50 - 60 mpg >and bracing myself for the shock) You want a Toyota Rav4 then. Or a Nissan X Trail. SignatureR o o n e y "I always knew the entire Green party were nutters" - Ken Livingstone >>> I wouldn't worry too much about mpg if you're only doing 8000 miles a >>> year. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You want a Toyota Rav4 then. Or a Nissan X Trail. Rav4 XT4 2.0 39.8mpg, but only 1500 Kg towing limit - a bit on the low side. X - Trail - too new = too expensive (AFAIK) Hilux is looking good right now. Re Only 8K per year - Still a lot of dosh and nerve wracking at the pump, and the way fuel prices are rising right now . . . . . >X - Trail - too new = too expensive (AFAIK) Did they start about 2000? 5 years old? There are some on Autotrader around your price. the other one you might consider is the Honda CRV, though I haven't checked the mpg. Hilux would be a good choice. SignatureR o o n e y "I always knew the entire Green party were nutters" - Ken Livingstone > Did they start about 2000? 5 years old? There are some on Autotrader > around your price. the other one you might consider is the Honda CRV, I wouldn't consider a CRV for towing, the drive shafts are like pencils. HiLux Land Cruiser Isuzu (Trooper or Bravo) If you want cheap sh.t, consider a Vauhall Monterey - an Isuzu with a bad name so it seems to be cheaper than the trooper. If you don't care about mpg, and TBH the cost of the vehicle is still more important than mpg when it comes to costs, consider a Yank Tank. My 4xFord costs £100 a pop to service and you can pick up new(ish) examples for under £5k. All the spares are at Ford prices as well, so no complaints, especially since the only spares I have needed were the ones that got replaced when some dozy twat drove into my vehicle. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 >> Did they start about 2000? 5 years old? There are some on Autotrader >> around your price. the other one you might consider is the Honda CRV, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >complaints, especially since the only spares I have needed were the ones >that got replaced when some dozy twat drove into my vehicle. Or a Mitsubishi doublecab. There's a useful table in the back of What 4x4? (I think that's the name) with used & new prices, tow weight, mpg, etc etc. I agree about fuel prices - not much point going for 40 mpg if it both restricts your choice *and* makes you pay a few grand extra, saving which would easily offset the extra fuel bill for years and possibly get you a better motor. SignatureR o o n e y "I always knew the entire Green party were nutters" - Ken Livingstone Nobody ever considered a Grand Vitara. 5 door: 2.0 petrol 30 mpg diesel 38 mpg. It's got the low range transmission when heavy towing is needed. And towing up to 2t is no problem Posten >>> Did they start about 2000? 5 years old? There are some on Autotrader >>> around your price. the other one you might consider is the Honda CRV, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > which would easily offset the extra fuel bill for years and possibly > get you a better motor. > I was speaking to someone last week though with a P reg Discovery diesel > which they loved and which they reckoned gave nearly 40 mpg Yes, and the sky in their world was lemon yellow with polka dots. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 rivenglo came up with the following;: >> if your looking for occassional towing dont get a land rover. you will >> always be towing - or shoould i say being towed. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > written. That would have been a strong contender but for all the bad press > they get on Usenet. I have a P reg ('97) Discovery and they get nowhere near that mpg. 30 - 32 solo, worst ever was 22 fully loaded with people, lughgage and tools, towing into a gale, and with two motorcycles in the caravan. Generally fully loaded towing the caravan gets about 25 to 28 mpg. Empty towing the caravan gets 28 to 30 SignaturePaul ... (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!! > I've noticed the differences in opinion. I was speaking to someone last week > though with a P reg Discovery diesel which they loved and which they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So what is the best 4X4 estate for towing 1.5 T? Economical, durable, easily > maintained? I think Paul gave you the honest answer re economy of a Disco. I tend to disbelieve all economy figures unless someone has measured carefully the amount of fuel they have put into the car compared to miles towed. I have a Nissan X-Trail which is fun to drive and an excellent tow car but as far as economy I get 24/28 mpg around town. Have achieved 40mpg on a long solo run. However towing is very similar to the around town figure and a lot worse that my previous Citroen Xantia. I think that if you go for a 4 X 4, especially for towing, economy will suffer more than a conventiional sallon but you have to weigh that against the benefits of a more comfortable tow using a 4 X 4 David - Milton Keynes www.caravantravels.co.uk Site Reports and Stories of our Travels in the UK and Europe > sitting back, > ready to take the flack More like the yawns... I went to a sports car meet some time ago (or in my case a bucket of parts meet) during which we were talking about cars, I mentioned I had a Defender. The only Ferrari driver there spluttered "Ha! Landrover! If you go out into the desert in a Landrover you will *DIE*" then stared at me boggle-eyed as if imparting some deep truth. He then went on to splutter out the usual codswallop about them breaking down every time they're driven, falling apart while moving killing everyone within a 20-mile radius etc etc. Mind you I've yet to meet a Ferrari owner who wasn't a dick, but then I've never met one who fixes their own car, I'm sure a proper enthusiast rather than a willy waver would be more agreeable. Given the number of landies that are still happily running in the world, being used for desert trips, jungle trips and just about anywhere where serious capability is required, and the number that are used by armies all over the world I've always wondered about the sanity of people who believe the anti-hype. Other makes are often used where more comfort and less off-road is required. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert > More like the yawns... > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > sanity of people who believe the anti-hype. Other makes are often > used where more comfort and less off-road is required. Mmmm....seen today on the Toyota Hilux Surf forum....... http://www.yotasurf-online.co.uk/public/forums/showthread.php?t=15690 Mind you- I wouldn't buy Hilux Surf either if want better than 30mpg! Nevillef > Mmmm....seen today on the Toyota Hilux Surf forum....... > > http://www.yotasurf-online.co.uk/public/forums/showthread.php?t=15690 sounds fun (but not happy reading for Landrover fans) rivenglo came up with the following;: >> Mmmm....seen today on the Toyota Hilux Surf forum....... >> >> http://www.yotasurf-online.co.uk/public/forums/showthread.php?t=15690 > > sounds fun (but not happy reading for Landrover fans) Based upon that links pictures, I'd say there were bound to be more breakdowns of Landrovers as there were simply far more of them than any other vehicle on the trail. I'd be interested, and more ready to scorn, if there were an'expedition like that one with mainly Toyota Surf vehicles and see how many drop out from mechanical faults. I've never had a mechanical breakdown whilst off-roading, indeed I've never had a mechanical breakdown of my Landrover at all. A Surf is a rarity off-roading, Landrovers are the norm, especially in UK, mainly because of their basic suitability for the pursuit. I can guarantee that next week we'll see more Landrovers and Suzukis than Toyota Surfs, we're going for a week off-roading in North Yorkshire. SignaturePaul ... (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!! > Based upon that links pictures, I'd say there were bound to be more > breakdowns of Landrovers as there were simply far more of them than > any other vehicle on the trail. Not exactly challenging terrain, either. A bunch of pics of a bit of hub-deep water. A bunch of pics of one bend, at the bottom of a dip, made a bit tight by a few rocks. Some unmade but smooth roads. Wow. The Landies probably broke down to alleviate the boredom... Adrian came up with the following;: >> Based upon that links pictures, I'd say there were bound to be more >> breakdowns of Landrovers as there were simply far more of them than >> any other vehicle on the trail. > > Not exactly challenging terrain, either. It has to be said that I reckon the pictures probably didn't do justice to that area of the world. I haven't driven there, but I have mountain-biked and it can be real gnarly .. ;) > A bunch of pics of a bit of hub-deep water. > A bunch of pics of one bend, at the bottom of a dip, made a bit tight by a > few rocks. > Some unmade but smooth roads. Heheheheh, I've been deeper in my Discovery .. and had to be rescued in less depth too .. http://groups.msn.com/LosiPaulsPictures/shoebox.msnw?Page=2 > Wow. > > The Landies probably broke down to alleviate the boredom... LOL SignaturePaul ... (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!! >> A bunch of pics of a bit of hub-deep water. > Heheheheh, I've been deeper in my Discovery .. and had to be rescued > in less depth too .. > http://groups.msn.com/LosiPaulsPictures/shoebox.msnw?Page=2 I've just about dried out now... http://www.2cv4x4.com/images/May-2004-Dalby-1010108.jpg Adrian came up with the following;: >>> A bunch of pics of a bit of hub-deep water. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've just about dried out now... > http://www.2cv4x4.com/images/May-2004-Dalby-1010108.jpg Heheheheh, we're up into Dalby forest next week, and probably doing the Langdale Quest runs too, and a few others, as well as riding our Trials bikes at SDMCC and wherever else we can find. We're having a 'dirty' week ... ;) SignaturePaul ... (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!! > Not exactly challenging terrain, either. > > A bunch of pics of a bit of hub-deep water. > A bunch of pics of one bend, at the bottom of a dip, made a bit tight by a > few rocks. > Some unmade but smooth roads. And yet three of the five Landrovers STILL had mechanical problems- good job they weren't in the desert then...... Nevillef > Based upon that links pictures, I'd say there were bound to be more > breakdowns of Landrovers as there were simply far more of them than any > other vehicle on the trail. I went on an off-road tour of the Brecon Beacons (won't do it again, 15 vehicle convoys aren't my bag) and the only vehicle to drop out was a Toyota Landcruiser, which unfortunately was the lead vehicle! It tore off its exhaust pipe and it wasn't practical to fix overnight. The tour operator then had to hitch lifts in my mate's Discovery and my Defender, no other vehicles broke down catastrophically although one defender had a water leak that had to keep being topped up. He turned up with that though and had enough spare water to keep going. So there you go, conclusive proof that Toyotas are less reliable ;-) SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert > Mmmm....seen today on the Toyota Hilux Surf forum....... Hardly conclusive proof, I think I'll take my own personal experiences of 7 years of off-roading without problems, the huge number of defenders used for serious off-road work and the prevalence of them in world-wide armed forces over someone's short holiday anecdote any day! BTW there's a fair few anecdotes about non-landrover vehicles breaking down and getting stuck, but I doubt that you'd believe those for some strange reason.. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert > the huge number of > defenders used for serious off-road work and the prevalence of them in > world-wide armed forces Umm which world-wide armed forces would that be? The Yanks have a few, but they are 6.0 GM engined, and used only by one corps of the Marines. The Carabinieri in Italy have a few for use in the mountains, and there are probably some in former Crown colonies/protectorates. However the evidence is that when a country has a free choice Land Rovers hardly figure as a mainstay of the armed forces. All the military 4x4s I see in Italy are Iveco, not Land Rover. The "technicals" in use throughout Africa are Toyota. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 > Umm which world-wide armed forces would that be? I don't know for certain Steve other than what I've seen on telly, various documentaries, posts in other forums, articles in magazines etc, but we're in the middle of an anecdote trading storm here so you hardly expect proof do you? Go an ask in alt.fan.landrover, it's been mentioned a few times there. As for why particular vehicles are chosen, there appears to be a large chunk of politics and commercial concerns involved in fleet buying, so a country will try and favour locally-manufactured vehicles, or as in the case of our police forces, a local force can plump for a vehicle that's "good enough" if the manufacturer gives them a large enough discount. There was a programme on special vehicles a year or two ago that went through all this. I wouldn't suggest a defender is the best in every situation of course, but the mountain rescue teams seem happy with them, I doubt that traffic patrols would though! Defenders usually feature in situations where you need proper off-roading, as your examples point out. Land Rover are currently the only mainstream manufacturer still making a serious off-roader, the rest make vehicles that can travel fast down rough tracks but aren't so good for grinding over rougher terrain. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert >> Umm which world-wide armed forces would that be? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > As for why particular vehicles are chosen, Certainly in my day the SIII landy was the ONLY vehicle you could hide in a small bush, as we used them with no tilt and the windscreens folded down for that very purpose. So that's what was purchased. I don't know these days - the Defenders the MOD seem to use look as though they've all got hard tops...maybe a "health and safety" thing? (As if war was healthy and safe?) SignatureGordon B Parker L/Cpl RE (Ret'd) Late 34 Fd Sqn RE, A Coy 6LI and Recce Pl att B Coy 4RGJ > Certainly in my day the SIII landy was the ONLY vehicle you could hide in a > small bush, as we used them with no tilt and the windscreens folded down for > that very purpose. So that's what was purchased. I don't know these days - > the Defenders the MOD seem to use look as though they've all got hard > tops...maybe a "health and safety" thing? (As if war was healthy and safe?) AFAIK recces are still done using Pink Panthers, don't know what will happen when they all break down. The Defenders are supplemented by Pinzgauers which did better in trials than the Defenders, neither vehicle has a fold down windscreen AFAIK. Ragtop Defenders are in use, but they're just not as small as either the SIII or the lightweights. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 > AFAIK recces are still done using Pink Panthers, don't know what > will happen when they all break down. The Defenders are supplemented > by Pinzgauers which did better in trials than the Defenders, neither > vehicle has a fold down windscreen AFAIK. Ragtop Defenders are in > use, but they're just not as small as either the SIII or the > lightweights. Pinz's are the mutt's nuts and replaced the ageing Landrover 101FCs for towing field guns, unfortunately shortly after the army decided on using them the manufacturer either went bust or stopped making them, so the rights were bought out and they're now owned by a British company. I don't think they're replacing the Defenders although I do see a lot of them on the A303 near my house. IIRC the Defenders are being replaced by a chunky-looking thing that looks like a small Hummer, independent suspension and all, doesn't look like it's got as much ground clearance as the Defender. There was a link to an article about it in alt.fan.landrover a few months back. The main improvement, and probably why it was so chunky and low to the ground, was that it has extensive anti-mine protection as standard, quite important now the yanks have scattered so many all over the place. The Pinz's apparently aren't liked very much by the people that have to drive them, I don't know why but considering that they make a stripped-out defender seem civilised that's not surprising, transmission whine is extremely loud and if you corner them too hard the wheels can tuck under Triumph Spitfire style. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert > Mmmm....seen today on the Toyota Hilux Surf forum....... Not unusual. Land Rover owners have brand loyalty, but have a bizarre ability to pass every failure of their vehicle off as "expected" or "not as bad as it seems". Someone commented about Land Rovers being used in deserts. They are. They also break down with horrible regularity and need rescuing and they also have a reputation for severing the limbs of those that drive them in deserts, when they roll over. I used to work with a survey company that had vehicles in Libya. After one year of running Land Rovers they were all retired and replaced with Land Cruisers. The Land Rovers had to go into the desert with a huge load of spares to enable running repairs. This didn't leave a lot of room for payload. The Land Cruisers needed none, not a sausage, bugger all. We started off running a spares truck just in case, but in five years of operations it was never needed. By contrast every trip in a Land Rover required major repairs and I lost track of how many times a Land Rover would limp back with broken springs, broken half shafts or a a bolloxed engine. I owned several myself, loved every one, but I'll not kid myself that they were practical transport. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 > Someone commented about Land Rovers being used in deserts. They are. > They also break down with horrible regularity and need rescuing and they > also have a reputation for severing the limbs of those that drive them > in deserts, when they roll over. Oh dear! Please google up the companies that run trips into the desert in Defenders and let them know that all these years that they've not had to pack the truck with spares to the extent that there's not much space left, and all the limbs that they haven't lost, have all been a total illusion! You're still not a landy hater then Steve.... The amount of off-roading around the world that's done in Defenders is huge steve, and it's done by people who aren't pissing about, so why don't you just drop it? Almost every time someone mentions landrover in this forum you turn up spitting bile. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert > Almost every time someone mentions landrover > in this forum you turn up spitting bile. a) Bollocks. b) If that knee jerks any higher you'll have a black eye. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 > a) Bollocks. Blimey, can't see what you are, can you. It only takes a mention of a landrover product to prompt a one-line insult from you. > b) If that knee jerks any higher you'll have a black eye. Somehow that fails to find its mark, something to do with where it's coming from I think! SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert >> Mmmm....seen today on the Toyota Hilux Surf forum....... > > Not unusual. Land Rover owners have brand loyalty, but have a bizarre > ability to pass every failure of their vehicle off as "expected" or "not > as bad as it seems". I run and have run most Japanese vehicle marques and a fair few Land Rover/Range Rover. Mechanically I have never had a Land/Range Rover recovered. Never a Japanese badged version either. All have suffered failures of some sort. Where they have really differed until recently is in build quality and failures under warranty. I have to say that my Range Rover, which is now nearly a year old, is the most problem free and best built vehicle I have ever bought apart from and equally superb Jaguar XK8, and this includes my current Land Cruiser Amazon, a BMW X5 and an appallingly poorly put together Mercedes ML270 I should say that my current LR 110 is now 21 years old and has never actually broken down despite being worked hard and consistently. It has had to have many replacement bushes, a couple or three steering boxes, a clutch, several master and slave cylinders and, over the last three years, a few propshaft uj's. This in some 11000 to 12000 hours of work. The Land Cruiser has had a few bulbs, a new seatbelt, a failed aircon belt and a failed rear wheelbearing in its short 3000 hour life so far. A far easier life than the Land Rover. Neither has actually stranded a driver. > Someone commented about Land Rovers being used in deserts. They are. > They also break down with horrible regularity and need rescuing and they > also have a reputation for severing the limbs of those that drive them > in deserts, when they roll over. This I will agree with. They are an old design which would never be allowed if it was tested as a new vehicle to be launched today. They have inadequate roll over, side and frontal impact protection. Their protection in an offset frontal impact is probably next to non existant. No airbags. No crumple zones. No side impact protection. No roll over protection. These were the reasons that Defender was withdrawn from the USA and the roll protection issue was the reason that when they were sold in the USA they had to have an external cage. This was not a cosmetic cage. It was there so that LR would not be liable for deaths in the USA. When it was forced to comply with stricter controls, it was withdrawn from the market. The UK has lower standards it seems. > I used to work with a survey company that had vehicles in Libya. After > one year of running Land Rovers they were all retired and replaced with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Land Rover would limp back with broken springs, broken half shafts or a > a bolloxed engine. Series vehicles maybe. I did have another 110, a station wagon that was indeed crap and during that time I ran two 110's, a Discovery and a Range Rover. Indeed I could not stand the constant problems multiplied by four and changed all but the hi-cap for Japanese. What a relief. But like I said, I was never stranded although the station wagon came close several times and if I was way out in the desert then it is likely that one would have stranded me. > I owned several myself, loved every one, but I'll not kid myself that > they were practical transport. The TD5 is an abomination in a working vehicle. I know of one Discovery based here in the UK that went in to the dealer with an oil light on. An oil contaminated loom was diagnosed and a new one fitted. The light did not extinguish so the engine was revved hard and taken on a high speed run to see if the light would extinguish. No oil pressure test or anything sensible. Result? An engine seized and ruined by the idiot dealer staff. Then a new engine delivered. The wrong model. Another four weeks and another engine. Customer visits dealer and asks to see his vehicle when staff suggest he looks at another model because it is the same model! "WHERE'S MINE?" he asks with trepidation. Um....... well actually......it's had to take a trip back to Land Rover because we have failed, despite our best endeavour, to get the engine fired up. Ho hum. Would you want one of these things as a long term work vehicle? Not me. I'll stick with the old 110 until it fails terminally then........who knows, there may be something better by then. Huw > The TD5 is an abomination in a working vehicle. A friend of mine recently bought his first Defender, after years of slagging them off to me. I told him to skip the TD5 and get a 300TDi instead, he tried a few TD5s and kept stalling them unless he revved them more than the 300TDi, and said that they tended to snatch the transmission and pull off with a bit of a jerk. The 300TDi on the other hand is very hard to stall, and mine will accelerate from 15MPH in fifth. Plus of course the fly-by-wire accelerator pedal stops working if you get it wet. Landrover definately screwed up with the TD5, I'd never own one. > Not me. I'll stick with the old 110 until it fails terminally > then........who knows, there may be something better by then. Some article in LROI said sommat about an engine based on the 2.7 litre turbodiesel from a mondeo being the new power plant for the Defender, not sure how much truth there is in that, but the TD5 looks like it's on the way out, thankfully. The official reason for dumping the TD5 is emissions regulations, any excuse is just fine as far as I'm concerned! Not that I'm in the market for a new truck of course, mine's only 12 years old with 170K on the clock. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert > Some article in LROI said sommat about an engine based on the 2.7 > litre turbodiesel from a mondeo being the new power plant for the > Defender, not sure how much truth there is in that The 2.7 TDv6 in the Disco3 and R-R "Sport" is currently only shared with Jag (S-type, XJ), but will soon be available via PSA (it's a jointly developed unit) in the Cit C6 and Pug 407, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was in the next Defender, too. After all, the 200, 300 and TD5 were all shared between Def and Disco. I'd think it'd be a bit too grunty for the Mondeo, but if it's going into the 407, it'd make sense for Ford to use it there too. > The 2.7 TDv6 in the Disco3 and R-R "Sport" is currently only shared with The article in LROI said that the new engine will be based on the 2.7 litre 4-cylinder currently used in the Mondeo, so it sounds like the one you're talking about and the one LROI are talking about are different, however they're close enough to be a mishear away so perhaps LROI are wrong and you're right! I don't know if there even is a current 2.7 litre diesel mondeo, given that I have about as much interest in modern runabouts as I have in nasal hair. I'd prefer it if they stuck with a nice simple engine for the Defender rather than start bolting on lots of electronics, but modern emissions regs seem to need it. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert >> The 2.7 TDv6 in the Disco3 and R-R "Sport" is currently only shared >> with > The article in LROI said that the new engine will be based on the 2.7 > litre 4-cylinder currently used in the Mondeo There isn't one. There *is* a 2.0 and 2.2 four-pot diesel in the Mondeo, though. > I don't know if there even is a current 2.7 litre diesel mondeo There isn't. Ford (at least in .eu) don't have a 2.7 diesel four-pot. But they do have a very nice, shiny new 2.7 diesel v6. Which is in use across half of the L-R range already. > I'd prefer it if they stuck with a nice simple engine for the Defender > rather than start bolting on lots of electronics, but modern emissions > regs seem to need it. *ding* Oh, and the salespeople... > There isn't. > Ford (at least in .eu) don't have a 2.7 diesel four-pot. I did think a four-pot of that size sounded a little suspicious, especially in a Mundano.. The article said that Land Rover have "confirmed" the use of the new engine, so chances are something is going to go in, just don't know what! Probably is the 6-pot you've already mentioned. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert >> There isn't. >> Ford (at least in .eu) don't have a 2.7 diesel four-pot. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > engine, so chances are something is going to go in, just don't know > what! Probably is the 6-pot you've already mentioned. It is too expensive and won't fit in any case. They will use a version of the four cylinder Mondeo engine, which is a 'good' thing IMO. Huw >>> There isn't. >>> Ford (at least in .eu) don't have a 2.7 diesel four-pot. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It is too expensive and won't fit in any case. They will use a version of > the four cylinder Mondeo engine, which is a 'good' thing IMO. Just to throw a little speculation in here - Ford have access to Nissan tooling - the 4 pot TD from the old Terrano/Maverick is a 2.7 - any chance they may be using that for the Defender - ISTR it's got quite a good reputation in the wider world. P. >>>> There isn't. >>>> Ford (at least in .eu) don't have a 2.7 diesel four-pot. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > they may be using that for the Defender - ISTR it's got quite a good > reputation in the wider world. This engine is not available to Ford/LR since the Ford Maverick built by Nissan in Spain ceased to be available some few years ago, although it again could be by arrangement I suppose. In any case it is old technology indirect injection which is inefficient by present standards and which could never meet future [or even perhaps current] exhaust emission regulations. Huw > There isn't one. > There *is* a 2.0 and 2.2 four-pot diesel in the Mondeo, though. Aha, mystery solved, it's the 2.2 four-pot diesel expanded to 2.7 litres. Described by landrover as a stop-gap engine, which really inspires confidence, until they complete their new TDv6. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert >> There isn't one. >> There *is* a 2.0 and 2.2 four-pot diesel in the Mondeo, though. > Aha, mystery solved, it's the 2.2 four-pot diesel expanded to 2.7 > litres. Described by landrover as a stop-gap engine, which really > inspires confidence, until they complete their new TDv6. That'll be the TDv6 that's been in the Disco 3 and R-R Sport since they were launched, then? I very much doubt the 2.2 four-pot could be stretched to 2.7 - it just doesn't seem likely at all. I strongly suspect the mag's got it wrong. > That'll be the TDv6 that's been in the Disco 3 and R-R Sport since they > were launched, then? That's not what I've been describing, it's definitely described as the 2.2 from the Mundano (including cut-out illustrations of the engine) stretched to 2.7, not something that I think is impossible. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert >> That'll be the TDv6 that's been in the Disco 3 and R-R Sport since they >> were launched, then? > That's not what I've been describing, it's definitely described as the > 2.2 from the Mundano (including cut-out illustrations of the engine) > stretched to 2.7, not something that I think is impossible. It's not *impossible*, but it's a *damn* big stretch... ... and it just seems... pointless. On the other hand, I've just been sent the Geneva show bumf for the Cit C6, which describes the PSA/Ford v6 diseasel as "Developed specially for luxury cars" - that fits the Disco and R-R Sport far better than it does a new Defender... >> There isn't one. >> There *is* a 2.0 and 2.2 four-pot diesel in the Mondeo, though. > > Aha, mystery solved, it's the 2.2 four-pot diesel expanded to 2.7 > litres. Described by landrover as a stop-gap engine, which really > inspires confidence, until they complete their new TDv6. I would like to know how you come to such a conclusion. This is extremely unlikely. For one thing they already have a TDv6 on production lines at Solihull being installed in Discovery. All engines are stop-gap if you consider that a different engine will be along within an average of around every five years. Huw > I would like to know how you come to such a conclusion. This is > extremely unlikely. For one thing they already have a TDv6 on > production lines at Solihull being installed in Discovery. That's what's written in the mag who described it in quotes as a stop-gap solution as the TD5 won't be sold next year due to emissions requirements. The article states that it'll be fitted to the Defender until the TDv6 is fitted, so it seems they intend to fit the TDv6 but can't right now, perhaps supply issues? No reasons for the stop-gap are given. If anyone wants further info go and read up on the July issue of LROI or have a peek at their website and get some contact details from them. No point debating with me any more as I was just reporting the article, and have no knowledge of the technical issues behind the decision or even whether the article is true or not. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert Want to echo positive sentiments on Discos My father has one, got i from new, S reg with 110000 miles on it. If you service it regularly, change Cam belt every 40k just to be safe then it will treat you as well as you treat it...and this isnt just a towny in it, they have a farm in cornwall, and it has never let them down. If people knock the disco truth is they have probably never owned one, urban myths are best sustained by the uneducated sheep who folow everyone else!! Here endeth the sermon! Lloyd > I'm looking for a used 4X4 for general use and occasional towing. A > Trooper [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Any suggestions?? rivenglo came up with the following;: > I'm looking for a used 4X4 for general use and occasional towing. A > Trooper or Defender would be fine but I'd like more mpg. An estate able [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Any suggestions?? Landrover Discovery. SignaturePaul ... (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!! > Good mpg > Low purchase cost (a few years old) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Any suggestions?? How about a ford transit? -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 597 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! >> Good mpg >> Low purchase cost (a few years old) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > How about a ford transit? I didn't know there was a 4X4 transit. Are they any good? >>> Good mpg >>> Low purchase cost (a few years old) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I didn't know there was a 4X4 transit. Are they any good? Ever considered a Hyundai Santa Fe? A fellow member of our Pajero club (www.POCUK.com) bought one and he's been teasing us with the good mpg he's had. Plus the overall performance of the car, compared with his old PJ. He was quite satisfied. Frank > Ever considered a Hyundai Santa Fe? The specs look good, but like the X-Trail (current favourite) they are going for considerably more than £3K. |
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