Car Forum / UK Car Forums / 4x4 Cars (UK group) / February 2005
LSD
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Rooney - 09 Jan 2005 19:59 GMT No, not the drug or the money!
Having had AWD made clear to me, perhaps you all could oblige over limited slip differential.
What is it? Is it better/worse than a locking differential, or just different?
 Signature R o o n e y
Huw - 09 Jan 2005 20:56 GMT > No, not the drug or the money! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What is it? Is it better/worse than a locking differential, or just > different? Limited slip differentials have clutch packs which are engaged by a difference in torque across the diff. In effect they provide a limited amount of difference to allow turning etc. In practice I have found LSD to be crude and next to useless. In cars they have now been largely superseded by other forms of diff control or diff design or electronic traction control acting on the braking system.
Huw
Rooney - 09 Jan 2005 21:04 GMT >Limited slip differentials have clutch packs which are engaged by a >difference in torque across the diff. In effect they provide a limited >amount of difference to allow turning etc. Sorry, Huw, but can you put that into terms a technopeasant like me can understand?
 Signature R o o n e y
Huw - 09 Jan 2005 21:29 GMT >>Limited slip differentials have clutch packs which are engaged by a >>difference in torque across the diff. In effect they provide a limited >>amount of difference to allow turning etc. > > Sorry, Huw, but can you put that into terms a technopeasant like me > can understand? I can only point you to a web site called 'How stuff works' on the web. If you have not grasped the fundamentals of differential operation then you will have difficulty with control systems. I dare say the site also explains limited slip diffs, torsen diffs, no-spin, fully locking by various methods, and all kind of other weird and wondrous patents.
Huw
Dan Holdsworth - 14 Jan 2005 19:08 GMT On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:29:05 -0000, Huw <hedydd> was popularly supposed to have said:
>>>Limited slip differentials have clutch packs which are engaged by a >>>difference in torque across the diff. In effect they provide a limited [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > limited slip diffs, torsen diffs, no-spin, fully locking by various methods, > and all kind of other weird and wondrous patents. I'll have a go, if you like.
A bog-standard diff drives the fastest-moving wheel. Drive into mud, and get one wheel spinning, and that wheel will spin and spin, and the other one won't get any drive at all.
There are a few ways round this problem.
Firstly, a locking diff. Lock the thing solid so both wheels get drive. Works great in mud, but you get wind-up on bends when one wheel's going further/faster than the other, hence over-run front hubs on some machines.
Secondly, a Detroit Locker, which drives the slowest-moving wheel. More complicated to build, lower volume production but if done properly works OK.
Thirdly, traction control. You stick a sensor on the drivetrain, and on each wheel. The computer knows how fast the wheels should be going, how much power is going to 'em, and if one wheel seems to be spinning, it hits the brakes on just that wheel to force the diff to give thoe other wheel some power.
Fourthly, LSDs. The amount one wheel can slip compared to the other wheel is set, using a clutch mechanism and some mechanical trickery to detect when the limit is exceeded, and a clutch to link the two wheels together. Tends to engage and disengage with a bang, especially on bigger, beefier, more agricultural units. As seen up-thread, considered the province of boy racers and techno-fuckwits.
Finally, stick a honking great electric motor on each wheel and computer control all four of 'em with reference to steering, etc. Power off a diesel-electric generator, or your favourite automagical power-making thingie. Said to work OK, defintely works on big quarry wagons, is being used by the US Army for a prototype stealth vehicle (turn off motor, run on batteries and nobody can see/shoot at your exhaust heat).
May or may not get used, especially given that the height of technological sophistication for America's enemies these days seems to either be a suicidal god-bothering fuckwit or a Toyota-load of armed morons.
 Signature Dan Holdsworth PhD dan1701usenet@ntlworld.com By caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, By the beans of Java do thoughts acquire speed, hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, By caffeine alone do I set my mind in motion
sylva@despammed.com - 09 Jan 2005 21:43 GMT >Having had AWD made clear to me, perhaps you all could oblige over >limited slip differential. > >What is it? When a car goes around a bend the outside wheel travels further than the inside. So that drive may be maintained to both wheels a differential gear is put between them. This puts exactly the same amount of torque (sort of rotational effort) into each wheel whilst allowing one to travel further than the other.
This is great when there is a lot of grip but if one wheel loses grip the maximum torque that can be applied is that which goes to the wheel which is slipping or spinning. So there are various devices for maintaining torque to the wheel that still has some grip. The simplest, locking differentials, have mechanical (dog) clutches that lock both output shafts together. Plainly once locked the differential effect is gone and both wheels rotate the same amount on a bend, so they make driving on firm ground again difficult, not to mention they accelerate tyre wear.
So a number of more automatic systems are offered. In the racing world where the spinning is caused by huge amounts of horsepower as the cars accelerate out of corners it is best to maintain some differential effect, so as not to foul up the steering, they tend to use limited slip versions, I am not sure of current types but in the 60s these would be sprung loaded clutch packs which were forced together by a ball ann ramp affair which was moved by the relative movement between the two output shafts.
For your off road driving the lockable type is more useful. A drawback of locking diffs is that all the drive effort then gets concentrated on one output shaft, which means these often need beefing up with a locking diff.
There are other types and ways of doing this, one is by having a viscous coupling (this was commonly used on the differential between front and back axles on range rovers), another is by using back to back one way clutches (no spin diffs) and another is a traction control that works like ABS brakes. As soon as one wheel starts spinning a sensor on the wheel notices it is rotating faster than the others and momentarily applies the brake to that wheel only.
> Is it better/worse than a locking differential, or just >different? Well from my limited experience for off road use I would say limited slip is less use than locking which is slightly less good at winding you out of a hole than "no spin diffs". No spin diffs and articulated steering work well together but not seen outside construction plant.
IME once you need to lock the diffs you don't get much further than when you started getting into trouble.
AJH
Huw - 09 Jan 2005 21:53 GMT <sylva@despammed.com> wrote in message >
> IME once you need to lock the diffs you don't get much further than > when you started getting into trouble. Depends on the type and condition of the terrain. If one side of your vehicle is on a soft verge at this time of year then a form of traction control gives a distinct advantage though a LSD is next to useless IME being eclipsed by traction control. For rock crawling while driving very slowly with high axle articulation, then ABS type traction control is a poor choice while you need a true locking diff. Which is why traction control equipped Land Rovers now have the option of a locking diff on at least the back axle.
Huw
Huw - 09 Jan 2005 21:57 GMT "Huw" Which is why traction control equipped Land Rovers now have
> the option of a locking diff on at least the back axle. > > Huw In case you were wondering, I am thinking of the new Discovery.
Huw
Steve Firth - 10 Jan 2005 00:40 GMT > a LSD is next to useless IME being eclipsed by traction control. Ewwww no, not on the slippy stuff. I tried to take a Vectra with traction control up a (mild) slope with a slippy (wet clay) surface. The 4xFord with LSD sails up it in all weathers. The Vectra sarted to flash the traction control light, backed off the throttle and stalled. Over and over again.
 Signature "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Huw - 10 Jan 2005 10:00 GMT >> a LSD is next to useless IME being eclipsed by traction control. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the traction control light, backed off the throttle and stalled. Over > and over again. 1. The Vectra is not a 4x4.
2. I still have three 4x4's with LSD and whether comparing them with each other or with any other 4x4, the LSD's in the rear axle don't make a blind bit of difference.
Huw
Steve Firth - 10 Jan 2005 23:04 GMT > 1. The Vectra is not a 4x4. Didn't say it was, but IME 4x4 traction control is just as bad.
> 2. I still have three 4x4's with LSD and whether comparing them with each > other or with any other 4x4, the LSD's in the rear axle don't make a blind > bit of difference. So three 4x4s with LSD are the same as each other? Why am I not surprised?
 Signature "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Huw - 11 Jan 2005 10:06 GMT >> 1. The Vectra is not a 4x4. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > So three 4x4s with LSD are the same as each other? Why am I not > surprised? You shouldn't be. I have owned around seven 4x4's with LSD over the years and the remaining three, a Nissan, Isuzu and Mitsubishi, amply demonstrate the futility of the design. On wet mud or slippery grass as well as mixed terrain such as one side on tarmac and one in mud, my various traction controlled devices piss all over them, tyres allowing.
I have one with full time four wheel drive and three diff locks but frankly it is not as good in most conditions as my LR110 with open axles, mainly due to having over wide tyre equipment. The diff locks do not sway the balance. In my extensive experience, diff locks provide the most advantage when slow rock crawling. Traction control is good in slippery stuff taken at a good walking pace or faster and LSD's might as well not exist for all the advantage they convey to the vehicle and user.
Huw
Steve Hunt - 13 Feb 2005 11:50 GMT > LSD's might as well not exist for all the advantage they convey to > the vehicle and user. Interesting notes there Huw. I have read (but never tried) that LSDs can sometimes be helped by tweaking the handbrake a little - assuming that it is the normal sort that acts on the rear brakes. Any truth to that in your experience?
-- Steve
Huw - 13 Feb 2005 15:20 GMT >> LSD's might as well not exist for all the advantage they convey to >> the vehicle and user. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a little - assuming that it is the normal sort that acts > on the rear brakes. Any truth to that in your experience? In theory, and practice, applying brakes mildly while the wheels are turning will ensure that drive is more equalised through a LSD. So the answer is 'yes'. If you are in the slippery stuff you will likely be stuck at that point anyhow but it could make more of a difference at extremes of axle articulation when one rear wheel lifts off the ground.
Huw
Andrew Kay - 11 Jan 2005 00:58 GMT >>> a LSD is next to useless IME being eclipsed by traction control. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > other or with any other 4x4, the LSD's in the rear axle don't make a blind > bit of difference. Well, I've a 2000 3.0D Trooper with a LSD - and I can't say I've noticed it's effect on tarmac or off.
Cheers Andrew Kay.
Huw - 11 Jan 2005 10:14 GMT >>>> a LSD is next to useless IME being eclipsed by traction control. >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Well, I've a 2000 3.0D Trooper with a LSD - and I can't say I've noticed > it's effect on tarmac or off. Slippery smooth tarmac may actually show the greatest effect so it is telling that you have not noticed an effect. In my Trooper I can say that it stops one wheel spinning wildly when accelerating in first and second gear 2wd in such conditions. Instead, both wheels lose traction and the back end tries to overtake the front in a violent spin. If one tries ;-) LSD's also tend to lose stiffness as they wear. I did once have an unit with a particularly stiff setting which had some peculiar effects including quite severe tyre wear.
Huw Huw
Andrew Kay - 11 Jan 2005 10:59 GMT >> Well, I've a 2000 3.0D Trooper with a LSD - and I can't say I've noticed >> it's effect on tarmac or off. > > Slippery smooth tarmac may actually show the greatest effect so it is > telling that you have not noticed an effect. Maybe we'll get some more snow this winter. If we do, I'll see if I can find a way of telling whether it is doing anything useful.
Cheers Andrew Kay
Paul S. Brown - 10 Jan 2005 10:51 GMT >> a LSD is next to useless IME being eclipsed by traction control. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the traction control light, backed off the throttle and stalled. Over > and over again. Vectras traction control is achieved by backing off the power - it's supposed to stop you going into an uncontrolled skid by detecting when you're about to break away and backing the power off.
The ETC on most 4x4s works by pulsing the brakes on the slipping wheel to make sure that the diff doesn't go fully open and just sits there spinning the wheel with no traction.
It's a different thing - don't judge 4x4 ETC by what a Vectra can do - they are different things.
P.
Steve Hunt - 13 Feb 2005 11:55 GMT > Vectras traction control is achieved by backing off the power - it's > supposed to stop you going into an uncontrolled skid by detecting when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > wheel to make sure that the diff doesn't go fully open and just sits > there spinning the wheel with no traction. I don't know the Vectra specifically but some 2wd road cars DO have the ability to brake an individual spinning wheel to get traction on slippery surfaces. Our Lean Cupra does, or so the brochure said; never had a chance to see it work! They refer to it as EBD and it's intended to help you move off in snow (etc) and it's complementary to the ETC system which works in the way you describe.
-- Steve
Rooney - 09 Jan 2005 22:00 GMT <snip>.
>IME once you need to lock the diffs you don't get much further than >when you started getting into trouble. > >AJH Thanks - and to you, huw.
I'm a bit more enlightened now.
 Signature R o o n e y
Steve Firth - 10 Jan 2005 00:40 GMT > What is it? Is it better/worse than a locking differential, or just > different? Different.
LSD locks the diff once one wheel has slipped more than seemed reasonable to the designers. Locking diffs are controleld by the driver, they don't lock until you command them to lock.
I have both on my 4x4 (Ford Exploder), it has a choice of "Auto" which is normal driving where the drive is 100% to the rears. The rear diff is a LSD so if one wheel slips the other will take up the drive sooner or later. The centre diff also has limited slip as does the front diff. Eventually if enough slipp happens all the diffs lockup and all wheels are drive at the same speed.
Sounds good, but in practice it's a PITA as when it does cut in, it cuts in with a bang and is likely to cause a four wheel skid. The better option is to dial the required setting in using the dashboard selector, as 4x4 High ot 4x4 low which works pretty much like the Land Rover (Series III) lever. Drive to all wheels, all diffs locked.
 Signature "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Rooney - 10 Jan 2005 09:39 GMT >> What is it? Is it better/worse than a locking differential, or just >> different? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >as 4x4 High ot 4x4 low which works pretty much like the Land Rover >(Series III) lever. Drive to all wheels, all diffs locked. Thanks, Steve.
 Signature R o o n e y
|
|
|