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Car Forum / UK Car Forums / 4x4 Cars (UK group) / July 2005Which 4x4
I hope you guys in here can offer me some advice. I need to purchase a secondhand 4x4 to tow my 21ft lift keel yacht. The gross weight of the yacht and trailer is going to be about 1600kgs + misc stuff in the boat so say 1700kgs. I am therfore contemplating a secondhand 4x4 and dont know what to go for. Options are: Pajero/Shogun Isuzu trooper Toyota Hilux Surf Any other suggestions. Vehicle will get used infrequently so fuel economy is not top of list, power and reliability is more of a requirement looking to spend in the region of 7K Any advice you can give I would be gratefull for Thanks in advance. MJ > I am therfore contemplating a secondhand 4x4 and dont know what to go for. > > Vehicle will get used infrequently so fuel economy is not top of list, > power and reliability is more of a requirement > > looking to spend in the region of 7K Range Rover.  SignatureThe Caretaker ......... Seriously ?, thought they had a poor reputation? MJ >> I am therfore contemplating a secondhand 4x4 and dont know what to go >> for. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Range Rover. > Seriously ?, thought they had a poor reputation? Seriously good towcars, though not quite as good as a 110/130 Landrover Defender. In my experience they are as reliable, and arguably more so, as any other 4x4 vehicle, 'specially as a long-term thing. They can generally be easily mended for one thing. I run a '96/'97 Discovery which has done over 30000 miles in the year and a half we've had it, mostly towing a caravan and full loads. We also have a Corsa for 'normal' car use. :) The reason I suggested Range Rover instead of Disco is purely 'cos if you honestly want to do low mileages, infrequently, the petrol engine sounds superb, especially with a stainless straight-through exhaust ..... :) The unreliable moniker mostly comes from new vehicles. :) SignatureThe Caretaker ......... [Range Rover] > In my experience they are as reliable, and arguably more so, as any other > 4x4 vehicle, Yeh, as long as that 4x4 was made by Land Rover. Compared to a Land Cruiser they are a joke. Fuckit, compared to a Ford they are a joke. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 >[Range Rover] > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Compared to a Land Cruiser they are a joke. Fuckit, compared to a Ford >they are a joke. There was a documentary about the Australian Outback a couple of weeks ago. Everyone there drives Toyotas nowadays. Nuss said. SignatureR o o n e y "I always knew the entire Green party were nutters" - Ken Livingstone > There was a documentary about the Australian Outback a couple of weeks > ago. Everyone there drives Toyotas nowadays. Or Ford Falcon Utes. > Nuss said. Pah, there's a "D" between "F" and "S" y'know. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 >> There was a documentary about the Australian Outback a couple of weeks >> ago. Everyone there drives Toyotas nowadays. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Pah, there's a "D" between "F" and "S" y'know. I had to look twice when it came out as 'nuss'. I'm stone cold sober, honeft! SignatureR o o n e y "I always knew the entire Green party were nutters" - Ken Livingstone > There was a documentary about the Australian Outback a couple of weeks > ago. Everyone there drives Toyotas nowadays. Nuss said. Depends on the area, which seems to be the biggest factor, dealer support in the area. A mate of mine spent 6 months in Kenya about 5 years ago, during his time there he found that there were 2 4x4 camps, Toyota Landcruiser or Landrover Discovery. The Toyota camp said the landies eat gearboxes, the Landy camp said some people get headaches in the Toyotas caning it across the bumpy roads down there. I didn't believe the headache part but he said he had a splitting headache every time he hitched a ride in a Toyota... Never had an explanation for that one! He himself belongs to the landy-hating crowd like Steve Firth so I doubt he's making it up about the toyota. Very odd! SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert > the landy-hating crowd like Steve Firth Hmm, an inaccurate portrayal of my opinion there. I don't hate Landies, I've owned enough of them. However I don't have my head in the sand, three years of Ford 4x4 ownership has cost me less than a single year of Land Rover ownership. For a working vehicle, that difference is significant. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 > Hmm, an inaccurate portrayal of my opinion there. I don't hate > Landies, I've owned enough of them. However I don't have my head in > the sand, Sure but don't forget that while you've had hassles with Landies, others certainly haven't, what I find amusing about your posts is that you rip into landies at the earliest opportunity based on your own bad experiences. I've owned my 110 for about 6 years now and the only trouble I've ever had has been down to my own stupidity, driving like an absolute idiot on off-road courses in my early days, or missing service intervals while washing lubrication off by wading through watery mud (that kills the UJs and blocks the rad). It's been a brilliant, reliable car, which is more than can be said for my last two Audis and my Lotus. The Audis and the Lotus have never had to go through water up to my waist in the cab, bounce off trees, rock crawl, tow each other around on large trailers etc. The landy has had the toughest life of all my cars and it's the one that's never complained and has cost me the least by far to maintain. Service costs are higher than the Audi but you'd expect that, however the landy has cost me less to run over a year because it's not broken down, whereas the audi has. In the Lotus's defence it's the oldest of the cars ('89) and has had 6 nasty owners, but the Audis have no excuse, they've been beaten by a landy! And the landy doesn't even leak oil! Yes landies have a bad reputation, but I think more than a fair old chunk of that is down to people wanting to knock the big name in the same way that people will batter on about how crap Ferrari are, any name that sticks out in a field gets a kicking from people, often without justification. Having said that, I think the Range Rover was sh.t from the end of the classic Range Rover range up until just before the current one, they made them too complicated and skimped on cheap but vital items like proper electrical connectors, so the gadgets stop working after a while. > three years of Ford 4x4 ownership has cost me less than a single > year of Land Rover ownership. For a working vehicle, that difference > is significant. There's not many 4x4 brands that have proven themselves in the field as well as Land Rover, it's why there's so many of them on our roads today. Defenders are all over the place, with good reason. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert > Defenders are all over the place, with good reason. When I did work in North Africa it's true they were all over the place, in pieces with someone or other waiting for a spare to arrive... and waiting... and waiting... The Land Cruisers just ran and ran. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 > The Land Cruisers just ran and ran. French-spec? > > The Land Cruisers just ran and ran. > > French-spec? This may be a "whoosh" on my part but no, they were specced for Egypt. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 >> > The Land Cruisers just ran and ran. >> French-spec? > This may be a "whoosh" on my part but no, they were specced for Egypt. French *military* spec? Run, and run...? <sigh> Never mind... > French *military* spec? Run, and run...? <sigh> Never mind... Ah sorry, I thought it was Italians that were stereotypes that way. The French just sit back and say "go on, take our country." Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 >> Defenders are all over the place, with good reason. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The Land Cruisers just ran and ran. Agreed. When I was in Saudi, there was only one Landy dealership. There were loads of Landcruisers out there.. the Saudis thought Landy's were poop and I tend to agree! SignaturehuLLy VOIP SIP Phone Number 4823176 on Global Village Or mobile 07976 123278 > The Land Cruisers just ran and ran. Well Landrover did design them to be easy to put together a long long time ago, the Defenders need updating but I doubt Land Rover will do it, too busy catering for the bling crowd now. You've got to admit though that the landcruisers now are a tad whale-like, the earlier ones were pretty good but I'm not keen on the current crop at all. SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert > You've got to admit though that the landcruisers now are a tad > whale-like, the earlier ones were pretty good but I'm not keen on the > current crop at all. But the Land Cruiser can carry a decent payload. The SWB Defender is a joke, the LWB is OK in theory but you can't fit much through that door, and the Disco and Range Rover are very, very bad jokes indeed. OK if all you want to move is a pair of green wellies. BTW, are the new Discos being built by BMW? Because the drivers act like they are BMWs. Slip road to lane 3 no use of mirrors then stay there all the way to their destination even if lanes 1 and 2 are clear for 30 miles. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Ian Rawlings came up with the following;: > He himself > belongs to the landy-hating crowd like Steve Firth so I doubt he's > making it up about the toyota. Very odd! I don't think Steve hates Landies, he just prefers other vehicles .. ;) Personally I love 'em, and am probably a little blind to their foibles. But it still has to be said that my current Disco is the most reliable vehicle I've ever had (apart from an old Ford Escort many years ago) in terms of cost of breakdowns, service parts and time spent off the road waiting for spares or repairs, including ten years worth of brand-new dealer serviced lease cars ... Mind, we chose it carefully and I service it myself ... correctly ... ;) SignaturePaul ... (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!! http://dogpoopblog.blogspot.com/ > Ian Rawlings came up with the following;: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Mind, we chose it carefully and I service it myself ... correctly ... ;) LOL, your Disco isn't a patch on my Disco. :) SignatureThe Caretaker ......... (rearranged for sanity) > >> I am therfore contemplating a secondhand 4x4 and dont know what to go > >> for. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Seriously ?, thought they had a poor reputation? I wouldn't touch one with a 40ft pole. they break down every five minutes and they're basically shite. Ford, maintained at a Ford dealer, £105 per service. You know it makes sense. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 "Range Rover !!... > Seriously ?, thought they had a poor reputation? Land Rover have an ill deserved reputation for reliability due to the abuse they suffer with poor maintenance; like anything maintain it properly and it will treat you fairly. In Vietnam in the '60's they introduced the M16 with a reputation for no maintenance with dire consequences in firefights, after they introduced a regular maintenance regime the problem ceased. ( Due mainly to the fact that in the trials a better quality powder was used which produced much less fouling and hence the reduced need to clean the weapon; military issue powder caused considerable fouling and hence the jams ) > Land Rover have an ill deserved reputation No they have a well deserved reputation. > for reliability No their reputation si for unreliability. > due to the abuse they suffer with poor maintenance; Utter bollocks, Land Rover have the worst reputation for out of the factory failures, before any maintenance has been done. > like anything maintain it properly and it will treat you fairly. Yes, and build it properly and it will work. A simple lesson that Land Rover appeared unwilling to learn. Even Ford who know how to do QA have had problems getting Land Rover to produce good reliable vehicles. The good news is that Land Rover is improving, the bad news is they have a long way to go. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 How many old Jap 4x4's are there around in comparison to LR. I've had my 110 from new for 7 years now and so far major failings have been door button ( just gone), diff seal, under warranty, steering box replaced after arguement with ground, alarm spider replaced. Not bad, I'm happy with mine so I'll not rubbish others :-)) John H " I do't have to take this abuse from you -- I have hundreds of people waiting to abuse me " Bill Murray, "Ghostbusters" > > Land Rover have an ill deserved reputation > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > The good news is that Land Rover is improving, the bad news is they have > a long way to go. > I've had my 110 from new for 7 years now Yeh, I know a fitter who had a hammer that had lasted him reliably for over 15 years. Just three heads and four handles over that time, but still original and reliable. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 > Yeh, I know a fitter who had a hammer that had lasted him reliably for > over 15 years. Just three heads and four handles over that time, but > still original and reliable. A door button, a diff seal and a steering box are hardly the whole truck Steve, and still you deny being a landrover-hater! SignatureFor every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert > A door button, a diff seal and a steering box are hardly the whole > truck Steve, and still you deny being a landrover-hater! " In time we hate that which we often fear " Shakespeare ( 1564 - 1616 ) >> Land Rover have an ill deserved reputation > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Rover appeared unwilling to learn. Even Ford who know how to do QA have > had problems getting Land Rover to produce good reliable vehicles. I have to agree with all of that. > The good news is that Land Rover is improving, the bad news is they have > a long way to go. The Defender is still not very reliable but, speak as you find, my new Range Rover has been faultless in its first year. Certainly *much* better than my previous ML270 and X5.......so far. Huw > Pajero/Shogun > Isuzu trooper [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > looking to spend in the region of 7K Given that lot, have a look at a Yank Tank. Anything from the list of Chevvy Blazer, Ford Explorer, Dodge Ram, Ford F150 should do. I chose the Fraud Exploder, cheap, reliable, 20-25 mpg and it can piss on a Golf GTi and cruise all day at 90 mph when not towing. Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 i have a range rover and its crap i have driven land rovers toyotas , mazdas and all are crap compared to the reliability, performance and comfort of a mercedes g-wagon very cheap nowadays too but make sure its a petrol 280 ge model although smaller engine than the range rover far more power and grunt i found >> Pajero/Shogun >> Isuzu trooper [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the Fraud Exploder, cheap, reliable, 20-25 mpg and it can piss on a Golf > GTi and cruise all day at 90 mph when not towing. All the people I know that have Discos or Range Rovers (farmers mostly) have found them to be reliable tow cars when lugging plant trailers around. I'm now thinking of getting one myself. Tim In news:IHGLDt.MC5@bath.ac.uk, Tim Adlam <timadlam@hotmail.com> decided to enlighten our sheltered souls with a rant as follows > All the people I know that have Discos or Range Rovers > (farmers mostly) have found them to be reliable tow cars > when lugging plant trailers around. I'm now thinking of > getting one myself. I towed a 4 ton trailer to Greece a couple of years ago with a 3.9 Range Rover. Ok, the Rangie broke down when it got to Italy (ignition module went on the fritz), but what a truly brilliant tow car. To defend the Rangie, it was a Saudi import, hadn't been used for a fair while, and other than an oil change its first run was 1400 miles towing - and probably towing beyond it's design capability. The ignition module cost £40 and took 10 minutes to change. It did, however, get us to our destination, I suspect the heatsoak from 22 hours non stop towing and the Italian midday sun probably caused the breakdown. It replaced an ancient Rangie that'd been in Greece for 10 years, had never had a proper inspection or service since leaving the UK, had done more than its fair share of towing and off road duties since being in Greece and still ran fine. I was seriously contemplating driving it back to the UK, but the thought of driving 1400 miles across Europe with a 10 year out of date tax disc and no MOT put me off somewhat. I'm actually on the look out for a half decent old Range Rover Vogue at the moment. SignaturePete M "If it does more than 20 mpg in town, I don't want it" Mercedes 260E, Porsche 911 Carrera 3.2 Ford Capri (ressurection started) VW Golf Clipper Cabriolet COSOC #5 Scouse Git extraordinaire. Liverpool, Great Britain For serious towing duties get a 1990-1995 4.2TD Landcruiser. Newer LC's are okay but don't have all the offroad difflocks of the older one. Nevillef >I hope you guys in here can offer me some advice. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > MJ You could also try a Nissan Patrol. 1700kg isn't huge anyway. They're not the best off road, but they tow well. I know a civil engineering contractor who used one for years and years and found it to be very reliable. Tim A > For serious towing duties get a 1990-1995 4.2TD Landcruiser. Newer LC's > are okay but don't have all the offroad difflocks of the older one. I ran a '93 version for a few years and my current daily work vehicle is a '98 Landcruiser 4.2. There are no advantages to these vehicles compared to any other as far as I am concerned. Up to around 3.5 tons towed then I actually prefer the Isuzu Trooper [which I still run] to any other. The only proviso is that if the vertical drawbar weight gets really excessive, as is possible when hauling living cargo like cattle, then the bump stops tend to go AWOL from Troopers. Huw |
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