Car Forum / UK Car Forums / Car Maintenance (UK group) / July 2007
Rewire Ford Focus
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Mr Cellophane - 27 Jul 2007 15:28 GMT Hello all after some guidance.
My son had his car an x reg Ford Focus Vtech broken into and despite the car not being stolen the wiring was interfered with as if it was trying to be hotwired.
he has been told that the entire wiring in the front end of the car needs to be replaced due to the damage caused.
he has been quoted £2500 for this and told it can only be carried out by a ford garage.
NE1 with experience of this type of thing ne1 got any advice on it in general.
I realise its scant information to go on I am just really contesting the fact he has been told (by more than one "garage" in quotes as both are suspect in my view. One is the local authority garage the other was quick fit!) it has to be done only by a ford garage.
If it does cost £2500 then it is likely to be written off as its only worth £2500 at top end (actually I think its worth a bit less maybe £1800 he bought it for £2150 after a bit of negotiation on the price)
JB - 27 Jul 2007 16:08 GMT > Hello all after some guidance. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > worth £2500 at top end (actually I think its worth a bit less maybe £1800 > he bought it for £2150 after a bit of negotiation on the price) If the wiring looms have been damaged enough to need replacement, it may be that most of that amount is labour. The loom(s) are almost the first part installed when the motor is built. Ford won't repair a loom, they'll just replace it completely even if only one wire of several is damaged. I'd have an auto electrician look at it. I'll bet it can be repaired easily and much cheaper. Where are you located?
JB
Mr Cellophane - 28 Jul 2007 09:12 GMT >> Hello all after some guidance. Where are you located?
Thank you for your helpful response (sorry conor I have a life that occupies my time when you going to go get one?)
Birmingham is where its located
and Chris also thank you for the information on the other news group, you are correct I did not know one existed.
DervMan - 28 Jul 2007 10:40 GMT >>> Hello all after some guidance. > Where are you located? > > Thank you for your helpful response (sorry conor I have a life that > occupies my time when you going to go get one?) The point is that writing, "ne1" makes you look stupid and lazy, even if you are otherwise not. Moreso given the length of the rest of your post.
Also Conor has a bee under his hood about such things... :p
> Birmingham is where its located > > and Chris also thank you for the information on the other news group, you > are correct I did not know one existed.
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Conor - 28 Jul 2007 21:20 GMT > Also Conor has a bee under his hood about such things... :p Indeed. I'm a truck driver but I make the effort to use decent spelling and punctuation.
Mr. Cellophane probably think lorry drivers are thick as sh.t but then posts with all the literacy of a 3 year old.
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It arrived at their repair center last week so only another month or so to wait
DervMan - 30 Jul 2007 20:41 GMT >> Also Conor has a bee under his hood about such things... :p >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Mr. Cellophane probably think lorry drivers are thick as sh.t but then > posts with all the literacy of a 3 year old. Not quite. Here it's the case that a post approaching acceptable standards is then ruined by the oaf-like use of "ne1," which quite frankly is appalling.
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Chris Whelan - 27 Jul 2007 16:15 GMT > Hello all after some guidance. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > worth £2500 at top end (actually I think its worth a bit less maybe £1800 > he bought it for £2150 after a bit of negotiation on the price) Call a dealer and ask them, I would suggest.
FYI, there is a dedicated NG for the Focus at alt.autos.ford.focus.
Chris
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TMC - 27 Jul 2007 16:27 GMT >> Hello all after some guidance. >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Chris Get an auto electrician to look it over it
If it really is trashed then shouldn't it be a claim on the insurance?
Tony
Conor - 27 Jul 2007 17:41 GMT > NE1 with experience of this type of thing ne1 got any advice on it in general. ILLITERATE c.nt. Too stupid to be able to spell "anyone"?
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It arrived at their repair center last week so only another month or so to wait
Zomoniac - 27 Jul 2007 18:44 GMT >> NE1 with experience of this type of thing ne1 got any advice on it in general. >> > ILLITERATE c.nt. Too stupid to be able to spell "anyone"? Well apparently you're too stupid to be able to spell "centre"...
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Conor - 28 Jul 2007 21:18 GMT > Well apparently you're too stupid to be able to spell "centre"... And you're too stupid to realise there's two versions with different spellings and definitions..
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It arrived at their repair center last week so only another month or so to wait
Mark W - 28 Jul 2007 09:32 GMT > Hello all after some guidance. > > My son had his car an x reg Ford Focus Vtech broken into and despite the > car not being stolen the wiring was interfered with as if it was trying to > be hotwired. That'll be the Vtech on-board 'my first ECU' then. Naughty thing, trying to be hotwired!
Dave Plowman (News) - 28 Jul 2007 09:46 GMT > Hello all after some guidance.
> My son had his car an x reg Ford Focus Vtech broken into and despite the > car not being stolen the wiring was interfered with as if it was trying > to be hotwired.
> he has been told that the entire wiring in the front end of the car > needs to be replaced due to the damage caused.
> he has been quoted £2500 for this and told it can only be carried out by > a ford garage.
> NE1 with experience of this type of thing ne1 got any advice on it in > general.
> I realise its scant information to go on I am just really contesting the > fact he has been told (by more than one "garage" in quotes as both are > suspect in my view. One is the local authority garage the other was > quick fit!) it has to be done only by a ford garage.
> If it does cost £2500 then it is likely to be written off as its only > worth £2500 at top end (actually I think its worth a bit less maybe > £1800 he bought it for £2150 after a bit of negotiation on the price) It depends on what part of the loom(s) are damaged. Most cars have several which plug together. If it is the main one which runs throughout most of the car it could be a deal of work to replace. If a sub assembly which, say, only does the engine it could be relatively simple. You need to identify which it is by the wire colours and then look at a parts catalogue for the car. A loom from a breaker's yard shouldn't be that expensive, although make sure it is for an identical model. However, any loom can be repaired. It would however require a skilled person to do the job correctly. Most mechanics and so called auto electricians bodge such things. The standard red blue and yellow electrical crimp terminals most use are really not up to the job and proper car connectors should be used instead. This is a source of such connectors and the correct wire if needed.
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/home/homepage.php
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PC Paul - 28 Jul 2007 10:21 GMT > Most mechanics and so called auto > electricians bodge such things. The standard red blue and yellow [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/home/homepage.php I'm curious, I've had a browse around and they have the standard ranges of red,blue,yellow crimp connectors, scotchloks and choc-strips. Which of those do you call 'proper car connectors'?
Dave Plowman (News) - 28 Jul 2007 11:43 GMT > > Most mechanics and so called auto > > electricians bodge such things. The standard red blue and yellow [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/home/homepage.php
> I'm curious, I've had a browse around and they have the standard ranges > of red,blue,yellow crimp connectors, scotchloks and choc-strips. Which > of those do you call 'proper car connectors'? I'd use their crimp spade connectors of an appropriate size for the cables - generally the 1/4" ones will do, but you need the correct crimping tool. Those generic pre-insulated types simply don't make a reliable crimp on flex even with the correct tool as you'd find if you remove the insulation and compare the crimp to the correct terminal correctly made. I do realise the crimp tool for automotive spade connectors is expensive but this shouldn't matter to a pro or dedicated amateur.
The difference is the 'pre insulated' tool simply flattens the crimp. This is fine if the cable is a tight fit - which it won't be with standard car cables. The car connector crimp tool sort of makes a heart shaped crimp which makes a far better lasting connection both electrically and mechanically.
I've lost count of the number of pre-insulated types I've replaced on cars where they've been the cause of a poor connection - in many cases just pulling off the cable with no effort.
Most 'mechanics' shouldn't be allowed near car wiring. And include most alarm and audio installers in that too. ;-)
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Chris Bartram - 28 Jul 2007 11:45 GMT [snip]
> However, any loom can be repaired. It would however require a skilled > person to do the job correctly. Most mechanics and so called auto [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/home/homepage.php My choice is to solder and heatshrink on the few wiring repairs I've had to do. Properly done it's better than any crimp, and neater.
Timo Geusch - 28 Jul 2007 11:51 GMT > [snip] >> However, any loom can be repaired. It would however require a skilled [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > My choice is to solder and heatshrink on the few wiring repairs I've > had to do. Properly done it's better than any crimp, and neater. It's also a hell of a lot more prone to break due to vibration.
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Conor - 28 Jul 2007 21:21 GMT > > [snip] > >> However, any loom can be repaired. It would however require a skilled [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It's also a hell of a lot more prone to break due to vibration. Solder and heatshrink? You think?
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It arrived at their repair center last week so only another month or so to wait
Timo Geusch - 28 Jul 2007 21:34 GMT > > > [snip] > > >> However, any loom can be repaired. It would however require a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > Solder and heatshrink? You think? No.
I *know*.
It's a reoccuring problem that I have to track down on some bikes I own/owned (the vibration on bikes is usually worse than on cars but the same thing applies to cars) - some alarm fitter solders a connection, covers it in heatshrink.
Five years down the line, you've got an intermittent fault that you finally track down to the broken connection inside the heatshrink tube, because the stiff connection has broken. If you solder it properly it's less prone to breakage but overall the issue is that you've got something flexible (two cables) joined together by something inflexible (the soldered joint) without any other form of mechanical protection.
Mind you, my favourites are those people who tin the end of a cable and then crimp on a connector...
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Conor - 28 Jul 2007 21:58 GMT > > > > [snip] > > > >> However, any loom can be repaired. It would however require a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > same thing applies to cars) - some alarm fitter solders a connection, > covers it in heatshrink. That's because the alarm manufacturers require heatshrinked soldered joints to be used in order to meet their certifications for Thatcham. Or at least they used to.
It was specifically mentioned in installation and certification literature on many.
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It arrived at their repair center last week so only another month or so to wait
Chris Bartram - 28 Jul 2007 22:16 GMT > It's a reoccuring problem that I have to track down on some bikes I > own/owned (the vibration on bikes is usually worse than on cars but the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > something flexible (two cables) joined together by something inflexible > (the soldered joint) without any other form of mechanical protection. That's a reasonable point. Hovever, if you use adhesive heatshrink, and ties up the cables afterwards, you can avoid the problem. The fact is that if you use the solder as the electrical connection, then take care of the mechanical issue, you won't have a problem. As you say, the problem is the soldered area isnstiff, and the cable isn't. However, crimp connectors are stiff too, and solder takes up less space and is easier to strap up properly afterwards.
> Mind you, my favourites are those people who tin the end of a cable and > then crimp on a connector... Thereby making sure the crimp doesn't work.....
Guy King - 28 Jul 2007 22:44 GMT The message <YmOqi.6054$By5.115@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> from Chris Bartram <news@delete-me.piglet-net.net> contains these words:
> The fact is > that if you use the solder as the electrical connection, then take care > of the mechanical issue, you won't have a problem. Proper strain relief is the key to long lived joints in vibrating applications. Crimped or soldered makes no odds, it's the waggling that kills them off. If it's soldered it'll fail where the solder stops and the strands are free to move, if it's crimped it'll fail where the bundle of strand leave the crimp.
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BobC - 29 Jul 2007 09:08 GMT > The message <YmOqi.6054$By5....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> > from Chris Bartram <n...@delete-me.piglet-net.net> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Skipweasel > We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost] At last a sensible answer on this matter. Soldering in theory will always be a better bond. Trouble is, soldering properly requires skill, and I've seen lots of attempts at soldering by people who think it involves throwing some molten tin/lead at a couple of bits of wire and "glueing" them together. Crimping on the other hand de-skills the task. That's why such as wire- wrapping and crimping were developed many years ago, although the reason for use now is mechanisation of manufacture. A soldered joint will always be at least as good as a crimped joint, provided the soldering is done correctly and the crimp produces a proper cold weld. The unreliability then comes in the strain relief... but thats been said.
BobC
Malc - 29 Jul 2007 09:28 GMT > At last a sensible answer on this matter. Soldering in theory will > always be a better bond. Trouble is, soldering properly requires [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The unreliability then comes in the strain relief... but thats been > said. When I worked for Westland Aerospace the components like resistors and diodes on PCBs would have loops formed in the legs to help with strain relief. These components were in a carrier inside the input shaft of a helicopter gearbox and were potted too. I didn't see what they did with connectors though, that was done elsewhere.
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Guy King - 29 Jul 2007 09:59 GMT The message <rcYqi.6170$By5.6081@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> from "Malc" <malwhite@blueyonder.co.uk> contains these words:
> When I worked for Westland Aerospace the components like resistors and > diodes on PCBs would have loops formed in the legs to help with strain > relief. I always through those little wiggles were to space the component off the board rather than sit hard down on the surface. That's certainly why I used to do it if I had a resistor I knew was going to get warmer than I'd like.
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Duncan Wood - 29 Jul 2007 11:25 GMT > The message <rcYqi.6170$By5.6081@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> > from "Malc" <malwhite@blueyonder.co.uk> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I used to do it if I had a resistor I knew was going to get warmer than > I'd like. You crimp the back of the leg as well if you're after vibration resistance
Malc - 29 Jul 2007 21:44 GMT > The message <rcYqi.6170$By5.6081@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> > from "Malc" <malwhite@blueyonder.co.uk> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > why I used to do it if I had a resistor I knew was going to get > warmer than I'd like. These were a complete 360 degree loop. Probably a combination of vibration resistance and heat dissipation although, as I said they were potted as well. In a compound called X 11/49 if I recall correctly. It had the property that it would expand when setting and crushed the casing of a hybrid circuit that we were testing. That takes some doing as I couldn't even put a tiny dent in the casing with my bare hands.
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PC Paul - 29 Jul 2007 22:39 GMT > as I said they were potted as > well. In a compound called X 11/49 if I recall correctly. It had the > property that it would expand when setting and crushed the casing of a > hybrid circuit that we were testing. That takes some doing as I couldn't > even put a tiny dent in the casing with my bare hands. Eww.. I guess that potting compound must have had redeeming features - I've only ever used ones that didn't expand at all.
Got bloody hot, though...
Were you making the hybrids, or buying them in? It all gets very strange working at that sort of scale - things melt and stick just from pressure, and you can barely see what you're working on, even with a microscope. And even then, ICs (hybrids just use the bare chips) don't look like they could possibly do anything, they're just covered in grey 1970's curtain patterns...
Malc - 30 Jul 2007 09:09 GMT > Eww.. I guess that potting compound must have had redeeming features - > I've only ever used ones that didn't expand at all. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > look like they could possibly do anything, they're just covered in grey > 1970's curtain patterns... Bought in but designed to our spec. When one got dented one of our engineers actually repaired/bridged the crack in the substrate as it was our only working example. I could never hope to do such fine soldering.
-- Malc
Dave Plowman (News) - 29 Jul 2007 09:50 GMT > The message <YmOqi.6054$By5.115@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> > from Chris Bartram <news@delete-me.piglet-net.net> contains these words:
> > The fact is that if you use the solder as the electrical connection, > > then take care of the mechanical issue, you won't have a problem.
> Proper strain relief is the key to long lived joints in vibrating > applications. Crimped or soldered makes no odds, it's the waggling that > kills them off. If it's soldered it'll fail where the solder stops and > the strands are free to move, if it's crimped it'll fail where the > bundle of strand leave the crimp. Which is why proper car crimp terminals - of the type the makers use on the looms from the factory - include a crimp to the insulation after the crimp to the conductor. That's not to say this can't fail - it's common knowledge that a connector is the weak link in any chain. But that is the most reliable form around.
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Dave Plowman (News) - 28 Jul 2007 12:11 GMT > My choice is to solder and heatshrink on the few wiring repairs I've had > to do. Properly done it's better than any crimp, and neater. Soldering is better than poor crimping and can be an option if you don't have decent crimping tools. But it's not as reliable as a *good* crimp for this job - check military specs.
However, if there is enough spare cable to allow soldering and you use glue type heat shrink I'd certainly say it suitable for this repair. But it still needs some skill to do properly.
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Depresion - 28 Jul 2007 12:19 GMT >> My choice is to solder and heatshrink on the few wiring repairs I've had >> to do. Properly done it's better than any crimp, and neater. > > Soldering is better than poor crimping and can be an option if you don't > have decent crimping tools. But it's not as reliable as a *good* crimp for > this job - check military specs. Are you sure that's not soldiering. ;)
> However, if there is enough spare cable to allow soldering and you use > glue type heat shrink I'd certainly say it suitable for this repair. But > it still needs some skill to do properly. Solder is fine so long as you can keep the joint and surrounding wire immobile (say if it runs down the sills), it's not normally the solder that fails but the wire at the end of the solder.
Conor - 28 Jul 2007 21:23 GMT > Solder is fine so long as you can keep the joint and surrounding wire > immobile (say if it runs down the sills), it's not normally the solder that > fails but the wire at the end of the solder. Does nobody here tin the wires before soldering them together?
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It arrived at their repair center last week so only another month or so to wait
Depresion - 29 Jul 2007 00:38 GMT >> Solder is fine so long as you can keep the joint and surrounding wire >> immobile (say if it runs down the sills), it's not normally the solder >> that >> fails but the wire at the end of the solder. >> > Does nobody here tin the wires before soldering them together? That doesn't help, it just spreads the solder up the wire moving the failure point.
moray - 28 Jul 2007 13:02 GMT >> My choice is to solder and heatshrink on the few wiring repairs I've had >> to do. Properly done it's better than any crimp, and neater. > > Soldering is better than poor crimping and can be an option if you don't > have decent crimping tools. But it's not as reliable as a *good* crimp for > this job - check military specs. Goto rswww.com and put in part no. 528-9264. That's the ideal type of connector for wiring repairs (they can be found else where far cheaper though), but make sure you use the right size for the wire (red covers most car applications, blue for bigger wires, and if needed, yellow for heavy wires), and use a decent pair of crimping pliers. Crimp it on, and before shrinking it, give the wires a pull to make sure it's crimped right. Then heat it up, and make sure the glue bubbles out each end so it's fully sealed.
> However, if there is enough spare cable to allow soldering and you use > glue type heat shrink I'd certainly say it suitable for this repair. But > it still needs some skill to do properly. Biggest problem with soldering, is getting the wires properly cleaned to get a good solder joint, which in a lot of situations, is near impossible. The above crimps are the preferred method for loom repair.
Dave Plowman (News) - 28 Jul 2007 13:52 GMT > Goto rswww.com and put in part no. 528-9264. That's the ideal type of > connector for wiring repairs (they can be found else where far cheaper [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > right. Then heat it up, and make sure the glue bubbles out each end so > it's fully sealed. You've obviously not read my previous post on the subject. These connectors make a poor crimp on flex unless it is *exactly* the right size. They are a bodge and should be avoided. Better no more expensive solutions exist.
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moray - 28 Jul 2007 14:39 GMT >> Goto rswww.com and put in part no. 528-9264. That's the ideal type of >> connector for wiring repairs (they can be found else where far cheaper [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > size. They are a bodge and should be avoided. Better no more expensive > solutions exist. Well if they make that bad a connection, then why do the big car manufacturer's recommend them for wiring repairs, and use them when contructing looms?
The main thing is to use the right one for the given wiring size (far too many people just use blue crimps, when they should really be using red ones), and to use a good pair of crimping pliers. They're a far better option than using uninsulated crimps, where you're effectively putting an extra connection into the wiring loom, which is likely to cause far more problems than a fully sealed crimp connection. Plus, they don't take up that much room.
I've fitted hundreds of the above mentioned crimps, and have never had any fail. I'll admit I've not crimped some correctly, that's why I always try pulling them apart before shrinking them to check they're crimped correctly.
Chris Whelan - 28 Jul 2007 16:25 GMT [...]
> I've fitted hundreds of the above mentioned crimps, and have never had any > fail. I'll admit I've not crimped some correctly, that's why I always try > pulling them apart before shrinking them to check they're crimped > correctly. In my working life as an electrical technician, I've fitted literally tens of thousands of crimp lugs. (I did a lot of industrial control panel building.) I've never had one fail, and in some situations the environment was more hostile than an automotive one.
The way to do it is to use the same make of crimp and tool, both preferably from A-MP, and to make sure that the lug is the correct size for the cable. A ratchet tool is to be preferred for most uses. It is also undesirable to introduce more than a single cable in to each lug.
I know that VAG will only allow soldered joints for repairs, and the AA make you sign a temporary repair disclaimer if they crimp anything. I'm constantly amazed that the car repair industry has not embraced this way of doing things; after all, crimps have been around for half a century at least!
Chris
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Dave Plowman (News) - 28 Jul 2007 18:34 GMT > > I've fitted hundreds of the above mentioned crimps, and have never had > > any fail. I'll admit I've not crimped some correctly, that's why I > > always try pulling them apart before shrinking them to check they're > > crimped correctly.
> In my working life as an electrical technician, I've fitted literally > tens of thousands of crimp lugs. (I did a lot of industrial control > panel building.) I've never had one fail, and in some situations the > environment was more hostile than an automotive one.
> The way to do it is to use the same make of crimp and tool, both > preferably from A-MP, and to make sure that the lug is the correct size > for the cable. A ratchet tool is to be preferred for most uses. It is > also undesirable to introduce more than a single cable in to each lug. Indeed. A properly designed terminal crimped properly with a proper tool is ideal. Those red blue and yellow devices satisfy non of those.
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Duncan Wood - 28 Jul 2007 19:25 GMT >> > I've fitted hundreds of the above mentioned crimps, and have never had >> > any fail. I'll admit I've not crimped some correctly, that's why I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Indeed. A properly designed terminal crimped properly with a proper tool > is ideal. Those red blue and yellow devices satisfy non of those. Well the CEGB used to happily use AMP CertiGrips. PIDGs aren't unusual either. Of course if you're buying cheap nasty ones then you'll get what you paid for.
Dave Plowman (News) - 29 Jul 2007 09:40 GMT > > Indeed. A properly designed terminal crimped properly with a proper > > tool is ideal. Those red blue and yellow devices satisfy non of those.
> Well the CEGB used to happily use AMP CertiGrips. PIDGs aren't unusual > either. Of course if you're buying cheap nasty ones then you'll get what > you paid for. On what type of cable? I stated earlier they work ok on solid core or stranded mains cable - just not on flexibles as used on cars.
I'd really suggest you make a few trial ones on car cables of various sizes then cut off the insulation and look at the result. A good crimp grips the cable all the way round - which requires a 'heart' shaped crimp formed by the tool. These are simply flattened.
The other thing is I dislike the look of them. They look like the bodge they are. The proper connectors as used by the makers of looms are easily available by mail order as are decent crimp tools. While I can accept a one off use by an amateur of these easily available crimps there's no excuse for pros using them.
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Duncan Wood - 29 Jul 2007 11:47 GMT >> > Indeed. A properly designed terminal crimped properly with a proper >> > tool is ideal. Those red blue and yellow devices satisfy non of those. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > On what type of cable? I stated earlier they work ok on solid core or > stranded mains cable - just not on flexibles as used on cars. Flexible fine stranded cable
> I'd really suggest you make a few trial ones on car cables of various > sizes then cut off the insulation and look at the result. A good crimp > grips the cable all the way round - which requires a 'heart' shaped crimp > formed by the tool. These are simply flattened. Use the right tool then. If it's simply flattened then you're using some piece of junk you got for £15. & use the right size, the blue ones are for 2.5mm2, not 1mm2 etc. Personally I tend to use the uninsulated ones as they're a factor of 20 cheaper.
> The other thing is I dislike the look of them. They look like the bodge > they are. The proper connectors as used by the makers of looms are easily > available by mail order as are decent crimp tools. While I can accept a > one off use by an amateur of these easily available crimps there's no > excuse for pros using them. Dave Plowman (News) - 29 Jul 2007 13:39 GMT > > I'd really suggest you make a few trial ones on car cables of various > > sizes then cut off the insulation and look at the result. A good crimp > > grips the cable all the way round - which requires a 'heart' shaped > > crimp formed by the tool. These are simply flattened.
> Use the right tool then. If it's simply flattened then you're using some > piece of junk you got for £15. & use the right size, the blue ones are > for 2.5mm2, not 1mm2 etc. Personally I tend to use the uninsulated > ones as they're a factor of 20 cheaper. All the pro crimp tools for RG&B pre-insulated terminals simply flatten the terminal - regardless of the pretty pattern they leave on the insulation. I'd suggest you actually examine the terminal crimp by removing the insulation.
Red pre-insulated are said to be suitable for 0.65 - 1.5mm² cable Blue 1.5 - 2.5mm² Yellow 3 - 6 mm²
BTW - I don't use junk crimping tools. They are pointless. The one I have for *proper* car terminals cost over 70 quid. Pre-insulated terminal crimpers - even decent ones - tend to be considerably cheaper due to economies of scale. The most expensive crimping tool I have for specialist small terminals cost over 200 quid.
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PC Paul - 29 Jul 2007 14:49 GMT >>> I'd really suggest you make a few trial ones on car cables of various >>> sizes then cut off the insulation and look at the result. A good crimp [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > insulation. I'd suggest you actually examine the terminal crimp by > removing the insulation. http://www.molex.com/tnotes/crimp.html
No way can a 'flattening' crimp tool achieve a good crimp - the best you can hope for is a crimp that you can't just pull off with your fingers...
The other problem with the preinsulated types is that you can't see the actual crimp - I've seen many joints where the only electrical contact is where the connector has just about been squeezed so hard it pierces the insulation that it's crimped onto.
Dave Plowman (News) - 29 Jul 2007 17:34 GMT > > All the pro crimp tools for RG&B pre-insulated terminals simply flatten > > the terminal - regardless of the pretty pattern they leave on the > > insulation. I'd suggest you actually examine the terminal crimp by > > removing the insulation.
> http://www.molex.com/tnotes/crimp.html
> No way can a 'flattening' crimp tool achieve a good crimp - the best you > can hope for is a crimp that you can't just pull off with your fingers... Yup. Pretty well all others produce a sort of heart shaped crimp - ie they indent the crimp to actually tighten its circumference. You need to do this to produce a gas tight seal over all of the conductor. A pre-insulated type cannot do this as it would pierce the insulation.
> The other problem with the preinsulated types is that you can't see the > actual crimp - I've seen many joints where the only electrical contact > is where the connector has just about been squeezed so hard it pierces > the insulation that it's crimped onto. Yup again. I'd suggest those who think them ok cut off the insulation and examine the crimp. And compare to a properly made non insulated type. Chalk and cheese.
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PC Paul - 28 Jul 2007 20:07 GMT > Indeed. A properly designed terminal crimped properly with a proper tool > is ideal. Those red blue and yellow devices satisfy non of those. I'll go along with that - and I've used crimp connectoras in a lot of situations, up to and including mil-spec, airborne. Which is quite fussy.
I've never liked pre-insulated crimps, and the cheap crimpers with just an arc to squash the crimp roughly towards the wire are a joke. For this loom repair job, bare butt (!) splice crimps and heatshrink would be the way to go. A bare crimp connector can be crimped well with needlenose pliers, once you know what it should look like, and if you do both sides separately and evenly. Much easier with a decent crimper though.
Solder can be fine in it's place - but you have to be able to make a good mechanical joint with the bare wires *first*, before you even apply the solder. Which you can't really do for a butt joint.
Dave Plowman (News) - 29 Jul 2007 10:00 GMT > Solder can be fine in it's place - but you have to be able to make a > good mechanical joint with the bare wires *first*, before you even apply > the solder. Which you can't really do for a butt joint. Indeed - which is why it's unsuitable for a repair to a loom.
If jointing two cables where you have plenty spare, strip back about 30mm separate the cores into two lots, twist those from either cable first then twist the lot together. Then with a hot iron quickly solder only the last 5mm or so, using pliers as a heat sink to prevent the heat going up the cables. Then insulate with glue heatshrink sleeving. You'll then have a mechanically strong low resistance joint.
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Conor - 28 Jul 2007 21:24 GMT > In my working life as an electrical technician, I've fitted literally tens > of thousands of crimp lugs. (I did a lot of industrial control panel > building.) I've never had one fail, and in some situations the environment > was more hostile than an automotive one. How many of them were subject to years of damp and water ingress?
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It arrived at their repair center last week so only another month or so to wait
Chris Whelan - 28 Jul 2007 21:31 GMT >> In my working life as an electrical technician, I've fitted literally >> tens of thousands of crimp lugs. (I did a lot of industrial control panel >> building.) I've never had one fail, and in some situations the >> environment was more hostile than an automotive one. >> > How many of them were subject to years of damp and water ingress? Lots. For far more years than would be likely if used on a car. (I worked on the same site for 36 years!) Of course, there is no reason why a crimped connector (as opposed to a lug) could not be further protected using shrink sleeving in the same way as would be needed for a soldered joint.
Also, many of the crimp lugs I used were on moving systems (on filling and packaging production machines) where a soldered joint would literally have failed in minutes. I know, because I tried...
Many regulating bodies for electrical installations worldwide deprecated soldered joints long ago.
Chris.
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Conor - 28 Jul 2007 21:55 GMT > Also, many of the crimp lugs I used were on moving systems (on filling and > packaging production machines) where a soldered joint would literally have > failed in minutes. I know, because I tried... I just don't get this "soldered joint falling to bits" thing. Am I missing something? I've just never come across one.
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Chris Whelan - 28 Jul 2007 22:10 GMT >> Also, many of the crimp lugs I used were on moving systems (on filling >> and packaging production machines) where a soldered joint would literally >> have failed in minutes. I know, because I tried... >> > I just don't get this "soldered joint falling to bits" thing. Am I > missing something? I've just never come across one. When the solder lug is fitted, or a soldered joint is made, solder creeps up the cable by capillary action. This turns a flexible cable into a solid one. If subjected to frequent movement or vibration, the *cable* will break, usually at the point where the solder has stopped flowing into the cable. The industrial situation I was quoting would not be found in the car world.
TBH, as far as car wiring repairs are concerned, it's not a problem. A properly made solder joint, or a properly made crimped one, are more than capable of outlasting the vehicle. I just take issue with those who crimp the wrong size of lug on to a cable with a pair of side-cutters or whatever, and then claim that crimped joints are not suitable for car applications!
Chris
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Chris Bartram - 28 Jul 2007 22:31 GMT > TBH, as far as car wiring repairs are concerned, it's not a problem. A > properly made solder joint, or a properly made crimped one, are more than [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Chris And that's the key thing. A properly done joint of either type is good enough. However, to do crimps well, you need a good crimp tool, not the 1.99 one from the car shop. Similarly, if you solder a joint badly and don't protect it, it will break.
Conor - 29 Jul 2007 11:53 GMT > When the solder lug is fitted, or a soldered joint is made, solder creeps up > the cable by capillary action. This turns a flexible cable into a solid > one. If subjected to frequent movement or vibration, the *cable* will > break, usually at the point where the solder has stopped flowing into the > cable. The industrial situation I was quoting would not be found in the car > world. Ahh...that explains it. I've never come across it but in the videogame and automotive market, I guess I won't.
Chris Bartram - 28 Jul 2007 22:23 GMT >> Also, many of the crimp lugs I used were on moving systems (on filling and >> packaging production machines) where a soldered joint would literally have >> failed in minutes. I know, because I tried... >> > I just don't get this "soldered joint falling to bits" thing. Am I > missing something? I've just never come across one. Soldered joints can fail with vibration over time (dry joints that make your TV play up so you have to hit it), but in the stuation we're talking about, the most likely failure is the wire breaking where it meets the joint, as the joint is inflexible. Like others have said, crimps can be reliable, but you need good connectors, and a good tool (=£££££), whereas with a bit of skill, a good soldered joint is cheap for repair, and if you cable tie it properly, it will be fine.
Dave Plowman (News) - 28 Jul 2007 18:32 GMT > >> Goto rswww.com and put in part no. 528-9264. That's the ideal type of > >> connector for wiring repairs (they can be found else where far cheaper [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > size. They are a bodge and should be avoided. Better no more expensive > > solutions exist.
> Well if they make that bad a connection, then why do the big car > manufacturer's recommend them for wiring repairs, and use them when > contructing looms? The answer is they don't use them when making looms. Nor have I seen any of them recommend them for repairs. Looms don't usually need any repairs - and a maker would recommend replacement if accident damaged.
> The main thing is to use the right one for the given wiring size (far > too many people just use blue crimps, when they should really be using > red ones), and to use a good pair of crimping pliers. There is no right *one* - they all cover a range of cable sizes which is the main problem.
> They're a far better option than using uninsulated crimps, where you're > effectively putting an extra connection into the wiring loom, which is > likely to cause far more problems than a fully sealed crimp connection. > Plus, they don't take up that much room. I'm not quite sure what you mean. A proper uninsulated terminal designed for flex is the correct way - and the same as the makers use. You can examine the quality of the crimp too - something impossible with the insulated type unless you remove the insulation. And if you do you'll see what a mess they are.
> I've fitted hundreds of the above mentioned crimps, and have never had > any fail. I'll admit I've not crimped some correctly, that's why I > always try pulling them apart before shrinking them to check they're > crimped correctly. Oh they may well 'work' for a time. But nothing like as long as a properly made crimp will. And there's no need to try pulling a proper crimp apart - you can see if it's properly made.
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moray - 29 Jul 2007 12:26 GMT >> Well if they make that bad a connection, then why do the big car >> manufacturer's recommend them for wiring repairs, and use them when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of them recommend them for repairs. Looms don't usually need any repairs - > and a maker would recommend replacement if accident damaged. How do you think they join several wires together in wiring looms? Manufacturer's generally recommend looms be repaired in service, due to the uneconomical cost of replacing complete looms, although the germans hate repaired looms, and will always advise complete replacement.
>> The main thing is to use the right one for the given wiring size (far >> too many people just use blue crimps, when they should really be using >> red ones), and to use a good pair of crimping pliers. > > There is no right *one* - they all cover a range of cable sizes which is > the main problem. But if you use the correct size that covers the wire you're joining, then it will provide a satisfactory crimp.
>> They're a far better option than using uninsulated crimps, where you're >> effectively putting an extra connection into the wiring loom, which is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > insulated type unless you remove the insulation. And if you do you'll see > what a mess they are. By using the 1/4" connectors that you've suggested, you've just put an extra joint into the loom. Not only that, but it's not a fully sealed connection. On a vehicle interior, it'll be fine, but on the exterior, water will get in. And if water can get in, it will corrode. On a power wire, it'll take a long time for the corrosion to become bad enough to cause problems, but on a sensor or CAN wire, it doesn't take much corrosion to cause problems. Also, if you join say 6 wires by putting in 1/4" terminals, one 1/4" terminal will take up the equivalent room of about 6 (probably more) wires, so instead of having a loom 6 wires big, you've got one equivalent to about 36 wires big. Off course you can stagger the connections, but they'll still take up alot of room, which is usually at a premium on modern vehicles, meaning you'll struggle to get trim panels back in place. The heat shrink butts don't add that much to the size of the loom in comparison, and only take up slightly more room than a soldered connection with heatshrink over it.
>> I've fitted hundreds of the above mentioned crimps, and have never had >> any fail. I'll admit I've not crimped some correctly, that's why I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > made crimp will. And there's no need to try pulling a proper crimp apart - > you can see if it's properly made. Well considering we've got several recovery lorries that had the original rear light looms (which lasted about 18months) repaired with heatshrink butts, and they're still working perfectly 4 years later, in what's about the worst enviroment for wiring on vehicles (fully exposed to road spray, with minimal support), you can't really say they're not upto the job.
Dave Plowman (News) - 29 Jul 2007 17:39 GMT > >> Well if they make that bad a connection, then why do the big car > >> manufacturer's recommend them for wiring repairs, and use them when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > any of them recommend them for repairs. Looms don't usually need any > > repairs - and a maker would recommend replacement if accident damaged.
> How do you think they join several wires together in wiring looms? Not with those pre-insulated types I'm talking about certainly. Why would they use a 'universal' crimp in production when it's just as cheap - or even cheaper - to use the correct one?
> Manufacturer's generally recommend looms be repaired in service, due to > the uneconomical cost of replacing complete looms, although the germans > hate repaired looms, and will always advise complete replacement. Where have you seen a maker recommending those RB&Y crimps for loom repairs?
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moray - 29 Jul 2007 18:17 GMT >> >> Well if they make that bad a connection, then why do the big car >> >> manufacturer's recommend them for wiring repairs, and use them when [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Where have you seen a maker recommending those RB&Y crimps for loom > repairs? Most common ones I deal with are the ones that come with replacement advance solenoids for Bosch VP pumps, plus I've seen them mentioned in official loom repair guides. Manufacturers spec a watertight and mechanically sound repair, which heatshrink butts meet. Plus they offer the advantages of being quicker to fit, and being able to fit them in more inaccesible places than you can solder. Manufacturer's certainly don't advise adding in extra connectors.
Dave Plowman (News) - 29 Jul 2007 23:08 GMT > > Where have you seen a maker recommending those RB&Y crimps for loom > > repairs?
> Most common ones I deal with are the ones that come with replacement > advance solenoids for Bosch VP pumps, plus I've seen them mentioned in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > more inaccesible places than you can solder. Manufacturer's certainly > don't advise adding in extra connectors. Heatshrink butts? I'm talking about the standard RB&Y pre-insulated terminals being discussed here.
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moray - 30 Jul 2007 15:51 GMT >> > Where have you seen a maker recommending those RB&Y crimps for loom >> > repairs? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Heatshrink butts? I'm talking about the standard RB&Y pre-insulated > terminals being discussed here. I did wonder why you were getting so upset! I avoid the standard preinsulated crimps at all costs, unless it's the only option left or just a temp repair.
It just so happens heatshrink butts come in the same colours, as the cheap and nasty preinsulated connectors. Although the heatshirnk butts are semi-transparent so you can see if you've enough heat to get them to shrink and the glue to melt and fully seal them. Maybe not the most perfect crimp, but they do the job well, and avoid the hassle of soldering (usually in some corner where you can just about get a hand in, but not a hope of getting a soldering iron and solder in at the same time) and using seperate heatshrink (which you normally forget to put on, then have to start again).
On a side note, most repair kits for multiplugs in vehicles come with the terminals precrimped onto a short section of wire. It saves the additional expense of having to have numerous crimping tools.
Conor - 28 Jul 2007 21:22 GMT > Soldering is better than poor crimping and can be an option if you don't > have decent crimping tools. But it's not as reliable as a *good* crimp for > this job - check military specs. Only if you're crap at soldering. Crimped connections are prone to problems from corrosion.
I can guarantee you a soldered connection will be going long after the crimped one has corroded away.
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Dave Plowman (News) - 29 Jul 2007 09:45 GMT > > Soldering is better than poor crimping and can be an option if you > > don't have decent crimping tools. But it's not as reliable as a *good* > > crimp for this job - check military specs.
> Only if you're crap at soldering. Crimped connections are prone to > problems from corrosion. Only crap ones. A decent crimp is airtight - which is why I dislike those red blue and yellow ones.
> I can guarantee you a soldered connection will be going long after the > crimped one has corroded away. Snag with soldered connections is the wire is mechanically weakened either side of the solder. The PVC outer is also altered and will harden by the heat. But a well made solder joint is certainly preferable to a poorly made crimp. And without the correct expensive tool that's what you get.
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moray - 29 Jul 2007 18:09 GMT >> > Soldering is better than poor crimping and can be an option if you >> > don't have decent crimping tools. But it's not as reliable as a *good* [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Only crap ones. A decent crimp is airtight - which is why I dislike those > red blue and yellow ones. Care to explain how any crimp is air tight? With any crimp, unless in a fully sealed multiplug/junction box, or covered with self adhesive heatshrink, air is going to get into the wire/connector. And where air can get in, water can get in.
Doki - 29 Jul 2007 23:43 GMT >> Hello all after some guidance. > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/home/homepage.php Any chance of giving a bit of an idiots guide on crimps and crimp tools for general auto electric use (ie, relatively low power stuff like radios and alarms, and higher power stuff like headlamps)? Is it possible to produce decent crimps with something like the PR4 that VWP sell? I'd like to produce tidy wiring and be able to shove new connectors on things, but it's very difficult to know what the right tool is without practical experience of the job...
Dave Plowman (News) - 30 Jul 2007 22:47 GMT > > http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/home/homepage.php
> Any chance of giving a bit of an idiots guide on crimps and crimp tools > for general auto electric use (ie, relatively low power stuff like [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > connectors on things, but it's very difficult to know what the right > tool is without practical experience of the job... The Repaults (PR3) is quite simply the dog's bollocks for most UK terminals. As well it should be at over 70 quid.
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Doki - 31 Jul 2007 00:04 GMT >> > http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/home/homepage.php > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The Repaults (PR3) is quite simply the dog's bollocks for most UK > terminals. As well it should be at over 70 quid. Yebbut is a £30 job like the PR4 going to be aqequate for the DIY bod do you think? Is there a grey area of "not hugely durable, but usuable"?
Dave Plowman (News) - 31 Jul 2007 20:37 GMT > > The Repaults (PR3) is quite simply the dog's bollocks for most UK > > terminals. As well it should be at over 70 quid.
> Yebbut is a £30 job like the PR4 going to be aqequate for the DIY bod do > you think? Is there a grey area of "not hugely durable, but usuable"? Can't help I'm afraid - I've not owned or tried one.
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Duncan Wood - 31 Jul 2007 21:37 GMT >> > The Repaults (PR3) is quite simply the dog's bollocks for most UK >> > terminals. As well it should be at over 70 quid. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Can't help I'm afraid - I've not owned or tried one. Given it looks like a cheap chinese copy of a thomas & betts crimper with no calibration you'd be better off with any amp or pressmaster one you can find on ebay
moray - 28 Jul 2007 10:32 GMT > Hello all after some guidance. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > worth £2500 at top end (actually I think its worth a bit less maybe £1800 > he bought it for £2150 after a bit of negotiation on the price) As others have said, it'll depend on what's been damaged. If it's just the wiring, a decent auto spark should be able to sort it, but if connectors are damaged, then it's a totally different thing. Ford don't generally supply connectors or repair kits, but some repair kits are available from other sources.
If it does need a new loom, then you're talking about a complete front end strip down, which will most likely involve the complete dash to be stripped and removed, aswell as various bits under the bonnet, and no doubt a few other trim panels. The loom itself will only be a few hundred pound, but it's the labour involved that makes it so expensive. I would advise against trying to swap a complete loom from a breakers, as even seemingly identical cars can have different looms fitted (it only needs a slight spec change, for a connector or two to be different). However, if you need certain connectors, a breakers is as good a source as any, and just cut what you need of the loom.
For repairing the wires, the best repair is done using heat shrink butt connectors. They're quite expensive, but are what most manufacturers supply for patching in repair kits for wiring looms. Just strip the wires back, crimp them on, then heat them up, and they'll shrink on and the glue will bubble out the ends, making a fully sealed repair.
John - 28 Jul 2007 13:29 GMT > Hello all after some guidance. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > worth £2500 at top end (actually I think its worth a bit less maybe £1800 > he bought it for £2150 after a bit of negotiation on the price) It comes down to whether it's an insurance claim or not. If it's a claim then the insurance company must pay to put the car back to it's condition before the damage which would require replacing the loom. £2500 sounds about right. Otherwise a competent autoelectrician would be able to do a perfectly adequate job for much less. The only problem I can see is if the connectors are completely thrashed. Even if this is the case you could cut off a section of loom from a scrapped car and reconnect to yours.
John
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