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Car Forum / UK Car Forums / General Car Topics (UK group) / August 2004LPG Warning - is this true?
http://htdig.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=8 Warning: Reader Bruce Purvis has come up with the following vital information to anyone considering an LPG conversion in the UK: Basically, our LPG is of inferior quality to LPG in mainland Europe:- "I have begun enquiries about having na LPG conversion, and the engineer at a major installer in the area advises that one of the factors to weigh up is the quality of the fuel. He reckoned that unlike the continent, where the fuel is adapted for automotive use, most if not all of that available in the UK is simply domestic propane. A number of implications arise: Firstly the fuel is 100% propane, not, as on the continent a 60:40 propane: butane mix. Although UK fuel has a higher energy coefficient, it burns hotter and places the engine under correspondingly greater stresses. Worse, because it is not filtered as effectively as continental fuel, there have been numerous instances of component failure arising from unfiltered inpurities. In a domestic situation this isn't an issue, because the feed is from the top of the tank, leaving any impurities below, whereas, in cars, the fuel feed is from the bottom of the tank, and all the rubbish ends up in the system. The genleman advising me showed me jars full of sludge which put me in mind of the anti-smoking lobby posters about tar-filled lungs." >http://htdig.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=8 > >Warning: Reader Bruce Purvis has come up with the following vital >information to anyone considering an LPG conversion in the UK: Basically, >our LPG is of inferior quality to LPG in mainland Europe:- Please don't multipost. There is a newsgroup specifically for LPG. news:uk.rec.cars.fuel.lpg . -- Peter Hill Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header Can of worms - what every fisherman wants. Can of worms - what every PC owner gets! Diesel also has been said that the Euroland fuel is better. I know that when i travel there I get more MPG less smell at the pump and no fuel pump niose and above all 35% cheaper John > >http://htdig.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=8 > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Can of worms - what every fisherman wants. > Can of worms - what every PC owner gets! > Please don't multipost. Why note? > There is a newsgroup specifically for LPG. > news:uk.rec.cars.fuel.lpg . Yes, but the article could be of much interest to a lot of the people in the uk.rec.cars.* groups who may well not read the lpg group. Peter >domestic situation this isn't an issue, because the feed is from the top of >the tank, leaving any impurities below, whereas, in cars, the fuel feed is >from the bottom of the tank, and all the rubbish ends up in the system. The >genleman advising me showed me jars full of sludge which put me in mind of >the anti-smoking lobby posters about tar-filled lungs." Not at all convinced about this. Fuel feed on a liquid fuelled system is invariably from the bottom of the tank, otherwise you can't get it all out. Similarly, when the fuel comes through the bottom, any crud in the tank will come through with the fuel, and be filtered / burned in the engine. It doesn't get the chance to build up as sludge. Not to miss this point, petrol tanks normally end up with water vapour condensing inside them and this sinks to the bottom of the fuel, being heavier, so when you start the car of a morning, the first bit is probably water rather than petrol. Water is *much* worse than sludge, because it washes down the cylinder wall, breaking compression and forming an emulsion with the oil, that is serious sludge and clogs all the galleries and pumps up while not lubricating properly. LPG is inherently *far* cleaner and burns off this crud better than petrol, so this whole email sounds like some sort of moderately poor hoax. Personally, I wouldn't go to the bother of LPG because it's inevitably going to be taxed heavily by the government, just like diesel is, once (or if) it becomes popular. Interesting to see where this one goes. > >domestic situation this isn't an issue, because the feed is from the top of > >the tank, leaving any impurities below, whereas, in cars, the fuel feed is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > is serious sludge and clogs all the galleries and pumps up while not > lubricating properly. Being heavier, the water sinks to the bottom of the filter bowl, whereas the fuel leaves the filter from the top. For what you describe to happen, the filter would have to be full of water. Steve ><Questions@quickwatchsales.com> wrote in message >> than petrol. Water is *much* worse than sludge, because it washes down the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >fuel leaves the filter from the top. For what you describe to happen, the >filter would have to be full of water. Basically the main problem with water in tanks in cars that are left standing for months is rusting in the tank. This usually shows up with fuel starvation and orange rust clogging the filter (which is causing the starvation). This problem goes away when the car is regularly used, as the small quantity of water is burned off with the fuel and doesn't accumulate - specifically because the fuel is drawn off from the bottom first and any contamination that sinks will be disposed of regularly. The same things should happen with LPG for the same reasons and sludge can't build up in the bottom as that's where the fuel is pumped from all the time, mixing it up nicely. >Basically the main problem with water in tanks in cars that are left standing >for months is rusting in the tank. This usually shows up with fuel starvation [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >same reasons and sludge can't build up in the bottom as that's where the fuel >is pumped from all the time, mixing it up nicely. Water can not get into the LPG system, it's sealed and under pressure. As you use fuel some evaporates to fill the space above the fuel. Water gets into petrol and diesel though the vent in the cap, as you use fuel the level drops and it sucks air with moisture in. The best way to prevent this moisture building up is to run from full to empty. The best way to maximise water in the tank is to always put small amounts of fuel in, never fill it fully and never run it low. -- Peter Hill Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header Can of worms - what every fisherman wants. Can of worms - what every PC owner gets! > Personally, I > wouldn't go to the bother of LPG because it's inevitably going to be taxed > heavily by the government, just like diesel is, once (or if) it becomes > popular. I thought that and didn't bother to have my 4x4 converted. I wish I had now it would have saved about 3K in fuel costs over the last couple of years alone.  SignatureHaving problems understanding usenet? Or do you simply need help but are getting unhelpful answers? Subscribe to: uk.net.beginners for friendly advice in a flame-free environment. Hiya, Does anyone know how much a conversion costs and how much of it you can get back from a grant. Thanks > http://htdig.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=8 > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > genleman advising me showed me jars full of sludge which put me in mind of > the anti-smoking lobby posters about tar-filled lungs." > Hiya, Does anyone know how much a conversion costs and how much of it > you can get back from a grant. > > Thanks Conversions start at just over ?1000 (don't be tempted by cheaper installations - I was, to my cost), but depending on the engine it can be significantly more than that. The basic venturi based systems are suitable mainly for older cars which don't have closed-loop emission control, and are very similar in function to a carb. They tend to require some fettling to set up correctly, and don't give the optimum power or economy at most engine speeds. The price of this type of system is largely independent of engine size/no. of cylinders etc. More modern engines really require sequential fuel injection, in which there is an LPG injector for each cylinder. The existing ECU and closed- loop emmission control system is utilised, with the LPG injectors used instead of the petrol ones. Once set up the system is self regulating and gives essentially optimum econom/efficiency at all engine revs, in the same way as when running on petrol. Because there is an injector for each cylinder, plus associated electronics, the cost of the system scales with No. of cylinders. This type of system is more expensive to purchase, but (if you have the equipment) much simpler to setup correctly. To the best of my knowledge, there are no grants available anymore. Hiya I have a Astra 1.6 16v Mk4 2000. Any ideas what it's likely to cost to get this converted and any recommendations on companies that can carry out the conversion. > Hiya, Does anyone know how much a conversion costs and how much of it you > can get back from a grant. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > genleman advising me showed me jars full of sludge which put me in mind of > > the anti-smoking lobby posters about tar-filled lungs." > Hiya I have a Astra 1.6 16v Mk4 2000. Any ideas what it's likely to cost to > get this converted and any recommendations on companies that can carry out > the conversion. How many miles per year do you drive? The 1.6 is fairly economical as it is anyway isn't it? You'd need to do a fair few miles just to break even. Peter Hello, The 1.6 16v is economical if you drive it in a sensible manner, it should return about 38mpg average combined town/motorway. It's not really worth sticking LPG conversions on economical cars. Think of the cost of conversion, then running costs which are more or less the same as using petrol, worse performance etc, you're better off with a diesel car. You could have bought a Rover 25TDi which is a similar size to the Astra, gives the same performace as a 1.6 16v Astra but costs less. You can pick one up a year old with 8000 miles for ?6k. Service intervals are not that different either. So that's why LPG isn't popular now, there is no need for it ! Hiya I do about 600 Miles per week > > Hiya I have a Astra 1.6 16v Mk4 2000. Any ideas what it's likely to cost > to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Peter > Hiya I do about 600 Miles per week And what does that cost you per week in fuel? Or how many mpg are you averaging? Peter Spend about ?60 on fuel doing about 600 Miles not sure on the MPG > > Hiya I do about 600 Miles per week > > And what does that cost you per week in fuel? Or how many mpg are you > averaging? > > Peter >> > Hiya I do about 600 Miles per week >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Spend about ?60 on fuel doing about 600 Miles not sure on the MPG That's about 36mpg at current prices. > >> > Hiya I do about 600 Miles per week > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That's about 36mpg at current prices. Yup, so assuming fuel costs will be halved, that'll save around ?1500 per year, but in reality probably less than that as it won't be quite as economical, and I think LPG is slightly more than half the price of petrol. Don't know how much a proper conversion would cost, but probably a year's worth of fuel at least, and after that year the price could well go up and the benefits would be even less. Peter : Don't know how much a proper conversion would cost, but probably a year's : worth of fuel at least, and after that year the price could well go up and : the benefits would be even less. Breakeven for me was 12,000 miles. Ian > : Don't know how much a proper conversion would cost, but probably a year's > : worth of fuel at least, and after that year the price could well go up and > : the benefits would be even less. > > Breakeven for me was 12,000 miles. Yeah, but your 12,000 miles cost a fair bit more than his 12,000 miles. Peter : > : Don't know how much a proper conversion would cost, but probably a : year's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : : Yeah, but your 12,000 miles cost a fair bit more than his 12,000 miles. A diesel conversion of a DS isn't an immediately attractive proposition! Ian Hello, Trade it in for a diesel as you will be very annoyed when you see how far it actually goes on a tank of gas, and also how crap the performance will be. It's around ?1000+ for conversion and resale value will drop quite a bit. You might also lose the space your spare wheel sits in as that's where the gas tank will be. > Hiya I have a Astra 1.6 16v Mk4 2000. Any ideas what it's likely to cost > to [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > of >> > the anti-smoking lobby posters about tar-filled lungs." Hello, All of my local garages removed the LPG pumps about 3 years ago now. No one was using them and once people realised it wasn't as cost effective or economical as a diesel car, people stopped buying. A petrol car doing about 30mpg will only do the equivalent of half of that on gas and performance suffers. I tried one for a while and it was crap. So if you think about the cost of a car, conversion and trying to actually find someone selling LPG in your local area, it is cheaper and more economical to buy a diesel car instead. New diesel cars are quiet and very economical, so LPG is a thing of the past and I am amazed anyone even bothers with it. > Hiya, Does anyone know how much a conversion costs and how much of it you > can get back from a grant. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> of >> the anti-smoking lobby posters about tar-filled lungs." > A petrol car doing about 30mpg will only do the equivalent of half of that > on gas and performance suffers. BULLSHIT. Performance takes a slight hit and so does fuel economy but nowhere near 50%. SignatureConor Do gooders are your most dangerous enemies. Never turn your back on the devious bastards. <conor.turton@gmail.com> slurred : >> A petrol car doing about 30mpg will only do the equivalent of half of >> that on gas and performance suffers. > > BULLSHIT. Performance takes a slight hit and so does fuel economy but > nowhere near 50%. Nope, it's closer to 10% for both, when using urban/extra/combined figures on a sequential injection system. Driving to achieve the same performance will reduce economy slightly further still, but still significantly less than 15% drop. With a poor installation, it is quite possible to get 50% less power and economy, but that is a problem with the conversion, not with LPG. : A petrol car doing about 30mpg will only do the equivalent of half of that : on gas and performance suffers. I tried one for a while and it was crap. My DS does 26mpg on petrol and almost exactly 5mpl (22.5mpg) on LPG. Since I pay 40p/litre for LPG and 82p/l for unleaded, fuel costs are down about 45%. There is no noticeable effect on performance. Next time, get a better conversion done. Ian > http://htdig.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=8 > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a major installer in the area advises that one of the factors to weigh up is > the quality of the fuel. Your "adviser" should also tell you, if he hasn't already, that an LPG fuelled car is banned from the Channel Tunnel. So unless you want to remain UK bound and use "inferior" UK LPG or risk your stomach on a ferry, forget it and buy a more economical vehicle. Icedog > Your "adviser" should also tell you, if he hasn't already, that an LPG > fuelled car is banned from the Channel Tunnel. So unless you want to remain > UK bound Oh please, did you sit at home with a cloth over your head until the stupidly expensive Channel Tunnel was compelted? > and use "inferior" UK LPG or risk your stomach on a ferry, Wuss, FFS a return ferry ticket is 1/2 the price of the Chunnel, and all of them offer a pleasant crossing in all but the very worst weather. > forget it and buy a more economical vehicle. Or just learn to not be a big wussy crybaby at sea. SignatureHaving problems understanding usenet? Or do you simply need help but are getting unhelpful answers? Subscribe to: uk.net.beginners for friendly advice in a flame-free environment. > > Your "adviser" should also tell you, if he hasn't already, that an LPG > > fuelled car is banned from the Channel Tunnel. So unless you want to remain > > UK bound > > Oh please, did you sit at home with a cloth over your head until the > stupidly expensive Channel Tunnel was compelted? Com'pelted', eh... I am proud to say I was one of the few school lads who stood and watched a bunch of protesters pelt Thatchers car with eggs as she pulled up outside the venue that she and Mitterand (IIRC), went to, to sign the treaty for this. -- JackH |
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