Car Forum / UK Car Forums / General Car Topics (UK group) / August 2004
Spoilers?
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--Tom-- - 29 Aug 2004 20:32 GMT What purpose do spoilers serve?
Are they supposed to *do* anything (one thing that springs to mind is some form of streamlining???)
Or are they just purely there for "decoration"
??
DanTXD - 29 Aug 2004 20:43 GMT > What purpose do spoilers serve? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ?? Depends on the car.
 Signature Dan (formerly Dan405)
Carl Farrington - 29 Aug 2004 20:58 GMT > What purpose do spoilers serve? > > Are they supposed to *do* anything (one thing that springs to mind is > some form of streamlining???) > > Or are they just purely there for "decoration" The purpose of rear spoilers is for downforce. Most cars do not need them and they are just for show - to make the car look faster. I think the Mark 4 Toyota Supra was the first to have the offensive sized one, which has also been used on some Alfa 156's, and lots of other cars as an aftermarket addition. (I remember reading once, years ago, of how such a rear wing was stupid on any car but a Supra!)
There is a very good reason for the supra wing being so large though - it doesn't obstruct the rear view, as it goes around the window instead of through the middle of it.
At high speed, even a small spoiler can make a massive different to a cars safety and handing. The Audi TT was recalled after multiple high-speed accidents on the German Autobahns. The recall was to fit a small spoiler to the back, and everyone said it hadn't taken Porsche too long to realise that a spoiler was needed, and it was stupid that Audi hadn't done it from the start. On many modern Porsches, the rear spoiler comes up electrically (it's normally hidden) at a certain speed. It's been suggested that one way to tell a porsche has had it's speedo disconnected (to freeze the odometer) is if the rear spoiler isn't raised at motorway speeds.
Back to the Supra, this has an active front spoiler, which works just like the Porsche rear spoiler. At 50mph, a lip comes down at the front to add downforce. You can turn this on manually with a switch, but it will not come or stay down below 30mph, so that you don't smash it on speed bumps and such like.
Halmyre - 29 Aug 2004 21:09 GMT > What purpose do spoilers serve? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ?? On a Lamborghini Countach, thay are probably of some benefit. I think that the original 'clean' Countach actually generated some positive lift at the rear wheels, albeit at silly speeds. The spoiler was added to help glue the rear end to the road. Of course, this might just be
On a Vauxhall Corsa, it's quite possibly purely decoration. At worse, the downforce generated by the spoiler will cause the steering to go light and the baseball capped twat will end up in the shrubbery. Or is that 'at best'?
Halmyre
Pete M - 29 Aug 2004 21:14 GMT In news:iKqYc.1018$xZ3.155@newsfe2-win.ntli.net, Halmyre <robert@SPAMLESShalmyre.abel.co.uk> decided to enlighten our sheltered souls with a rant as follows
>> What purpose do spoilers serve? >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > light and the baseball capped twat will end up in the shrubbery. Or is > that 'at best'? Definately for the best..
I took the boot spoiler off my Sapp Cossie a few years ago (was getting it painted), and it certainly made a difference. Went from being seriously tail happy to murderously tail happy....
 Signature Pete M
Ford Capri (presently dead) - Sierra XR4x4 Sierra 4x4 Twin Turbo Estate COSOC #5 Scouse Git extraordinaire. Liverpool, Great Britain
Tim S Kemp - 29 Aug 2004 23:21 GMT > On a Vauxhall Corsa, it's quite possibly purely decoration. At worse, > the downforce generated by the spoiler will cause the steering to go > light and the baseball capped twat will end up in the shrubbery. Or is > that 'at best'? cue calls of "A shrubbery?"
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Depresion - 29 Aug 2004 23:29 GMT >> On a Vauxhall Corsa, it's quite possibly purely decoration. At worse, >> the downforce generated by the spoiler will cause the steering to go >> light and the baseball capped twat will end up in the shrubbery. Or is >> that 'at best'? > > cue calls of "A shrubbery?" Yes, it is a good shrubbery. I like the laurels particularly.
Halmyre - 30 Aug 2004 10:12 GMT >>On a Vauxhall Corsa, it's quite possibly purely decoration. At worse, >>the downforce generated by the spoiler will cause the steering to go >>light and the baseball capped twat will end up in the shrubbery. Or is >>that 'at best'? > > cue calls of "A shrubbery?" Yes, but now with a little (Corsa shaped) path running through it...
Halmyre
David Thornber - 29 Aug 2004 21:41 GMT >What purpose do spoilers serve? > >Are they supposed to *do* anything (one thing that springs to mind is some >form of streamlining???) > >Or are they just purely there for "decoration" On the vast majority of cars, they're a fashion accessory. Like front fog lights, they mysteriously transform a run of the mill repmobile into a 'sports car'.
Even when they do perform a useful function, they're unlikely to do so at UK legal road speeds. The VW Corrado had one that electrically deployed at the appropriate speed but, as this was somewhere in excess of the UK national speed limit, they lowered the speed for the UK model so that owners could actually play with the gimmick.
My car before this one was the same make and model as the one before it, with the same size and design of engine. The only significant differences were alloy wheels, distributorless ignition, air-con (switched off most of the time) and the fact that they'd glued a spoiler to the boot. The first one would average 38mpg, but the second only averaged 35 with the same driving style. I always held the spoiler as being most responsible for the drop.
 Signature David Thornber
SteveH - 29 Aug 2004 22:52 GMT > My car before this one was the same make and model as the one before it, > with the same size and design of engine. The only significant [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > averaged 35 with the same driving style. I always held the spoiler as > being most responsible for the drop. We had a couple of near-identical Alfa 33s for a couple of years.
One was a 16v with spoiler, the other an 8v without.
On sweeping bends at 60 plus mph (private track, of course), the 16v definitely felt more 'planted' at the back.
 Signature Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - Alfa 155 TS Lusso - COSOC KOTL BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #
Douglas Payne - 30 Aug 2004 00:18 GMT > > My car before this one was the same make and model as the one before it, > > with the same size and design of engine. The only significant [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > On sweeping bends at 60 plus mph (private track, of course), the 16v > definitely felt more 'planted' at the back. A chunk of GRP spoiler probably doubled the weight over the back wheels (c:
Incidentally (and completely unrelated to Alfas of course) does iron oxide weigh more or less than steel?
Douglas
Pete M - 30 Aug 2004 00:28 GMT In news:2pf6iiFk76enU1@uni-berlin.de, Douglas Payne <douggie@cheerful.com> decided to enlighten our sheltered souls with a rant as follows
>>> My car before this one was the same make and model as the one >>> before it, with the same size and design of engine. The only [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Incidentally (and completely unrelated to Alfas of course) does iron > oxide weigh more or less than steel? Less, I'd imagine...
 Signature Pete M
Ford Capri (presently dead) - Sierra XR4x4 Sierra 4x4 Twin Turbo Estate COSOC #5 Scouse Git extraordinaire. Liverpool, Great Britain
Questions@quickwatchsales.com - 30 Aug 2004 10:35 GMT >"SteveH" <steve@italiancar.co.uk> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Incidentally (and completely unrelated to Alfas of course) does iron oxide >weigh more or less than steel? FWIW, Fe2O3, iron oxide ought to weigh about 150% of straight iron.
56 * 2 = 112 56 * 2 + 16 * 3 = 160
Lower density, though, and steel isn't pure iron.
Nick Drew - 30 Aug 2004 16:26 GMT > >Incidentally (and completely unrelated to Alfas of course) does iron oxide > >weigh more or less than steel? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Lower density, though, and steel isn't pure iron. Iron oxide=rust!
So in theory a rusty car should weigh more than a not rusty one?
'FS: fantastic Alfa, complete with included oxygen*
*bonded to the panels in the form of iron oxide'
Nick
Adrian - 30 Aug 2004 17:45 GMT >>Incidentally (and completely unrelated to Alfas of course) does iron >>oxide weigh more or less than steel? > > FWIW, Fe2O3, iron oxide ought to weigh about 150% of straight iron. You're forgetting to figure the weight lost through the bits that have fallen off...
Questions@quickwatchsales.com - 29 Aug 2004 22:09 GMT >What purpose do spoilers serve? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >?? Aerodynamics is a complex business and there are good designs and bad. It is easy to bolt some pretty piece of plastic on and have it just produce worthless drag forces.
A formula one car has spoilers for a reason, a Corsa 0.9 litre with a huge spoiler, probably has it for a different reason.
It's easy to dismiss any add on as a piece of decoration, but even at ordinary speeds a spoiler can be good aerodynamics.
Depresion - 29 Aug 2004 23:23 GMT > What purpose do spoilers serve? As the name suggests to spoil the airflow over the car, a car acts much like an aeroplane wing (a very bad one but the same physics and forces are involved) and as speeds increase they generate lift as air follows a longer path over the top of the car than the bottom it has to travel faster and this reduces the pressure above the vehicle so the air under the car forces it up (however slightly) a spoiler will break the flow of air from the car thus reducing the effect. Spoilers should not be confused with wings as used in motor sport or the bolt on fast and furious style ones, motor sport wings are designed to create downforce by using the same principles as above but obviously the other way round so the low pressure is below the wing so the higher pressure pushes down (there is no suck or pull only push) and god knows what the fast and furious style ones are supposed to do other than look tacky and part fools & there money.
Depresion - 29 Aug 2004 23:29 GMT >> What purpose do spoilers serve? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > what the fast and furious style ones are supposed to do other than look tacky > and part fools & there money. Hmm could have done with a bit of punctuation in there but I was in full flow and didn't want to stop. ;)
Steve Walker - 30 Aug 2004 12:25 GMT >What purpose do spoilers serve? Aftermarket ones are there to 'spoil' the appearance of the car.
 Signature Steve Walker
in2minds - 30 Aug 2004 13:38 GMT > What purpose do spoilers serve? very little or nothing on most cars
> Are they supposed to *do* anything (one thing that springs to mind is some > form of streamlining???) prettify ? see above
> Or are they just purely there for "decoration" mostly
our C8 (the 807 and new Ulysse) has roof bars that can be slid together to make what looks like a roof spoiler, looks nice but serves no purpose other than to push fuel consumption up.
DanTXD - 30 Aug 2004 13:53 GMT >> What purpose do spoilers serve? >> > our C8 (the 807 and new Ulysse) has roof bars that can be slid together > to make what looks like a roof spoiler, looks nice but serves no purpose > other than to push fuel consumption up. Agreed. On stuff like that, they serve no purpose. But on a performance or sports car, they can make a lot of difference.
 Signature Dan (formerly Dan405)
Nick Drew - 30 Aug 2004 16:30 GMT > What purpose do spoilers serve? > > Are they supposed to *do* anything (one thing that springs to mind is some > form of streamlining???) > > Or are they just purely there for "decoration" Mostly for 'decoration' - to make it look like the car is sufficiently fast to warrant the need for downforce.
FWIW, the Escort Cosworth apparently had a need for a huge amount of downforce at top speed to keep it on the road. Hence the huge spoiler that can be seen from the moon in some cases. Which also takes 12mph off the top speed, apparently.
Strangely though, come to think of it, the Lotus Carlton didn't have a huge amount in the way of spoilers, did it?
Nick
SteveH - 30 Aug 2004 16:39 GMT > > Or are they just purely there for "decoration" > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Strangely though, come to think of it, the Lotus Carlton didn't have a huge > amount in the way of spoilers, did it? I had a fair sized one on the boot, plus, ISTR, some fancy stuff going on with airflow under the car and the rear bumper.
A saloon doesn't need a spoiler as much as a hatch does, though - the 'chopped off' rear end of a hatch doesn't nothing for the downforce.
 Signature Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - Alfa 155 TS Lusso - COSOC KOTL BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #
Douglas Payne - 30 Aug 2004 21:27 GMT > > What purpose do spoilers serve? > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Strangely though, come to think of it, the Lotus Carlton didn't have a huge > amount in the way of spoilers, did it? Carltons are pretty aerodynamic (Cd 0.28 according to something I read once) and were probably originally designed with rather higher top speeds in mind than the escort.
Douglas
Steve Walker - 30 Aug 2004 23:22 GMT >> FWIW, the Escort Cosworth apparently had a need for a huge amount of >>downforce at top speed to keep it on the road. Hence the huge spoiler >>that can be seen from the moon in some cases. Which also takes 12mph >>off the top speed, apparently.
>> Strangely though, come to think of it, the Lotus Carlton didn't have >>a huge amount in the way of spoilers, did it?
>Carltons are pretty aerodynamic (Cd 0.28 according to something I read once) >and were probably originally designed with rather higher top speeds in mind >than the escort. There wasn't a whole lot of Escort in the Cosworth anyway; it was about six inches longer and a couple of inches wider than a normal Escort, and genetically had more in common with the Sierra Cosworth.
I suspect that the obscene rear spoiler, like the big laggy turbo in early cars, was there mostly because the purpose of the road car was to homologate the rally car. I don't know how strict the rules are on aerodynamic addenda in rallying.
I'd say the Carlton didn't need it because the design brief didn't include being hurled sideways through Kielder forest :o)
 Signature Steve Walker
Halmyre - 31 Aug 2004 09:53 GMT >>> FWIW, the Escort Cosworth apparently had a need for a huge amount of >>> downforce at top speed to keep it on the road. Hence the huge spoiler [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I'd say the Carlton didn't need it because the design brief didn't > include being hurled sideways through Kielder forest :o) WNow that would be worth seeing! I remember Armin Schwartz rallying an Audi 200 Quattro Turbo many years ago, and some other nutcase rallying an Opel Monza.
Halmyre
Steve Knight - 31 Aug 2004 19:14 GMT > What purpose do spoilers serve? 99% of the time they're just there to help Police identify boy-racers and other saddos.
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