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Car Forum / UK Car Forums / General Car Topics (UK group) / August 2004

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Spoilers?

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--Tom-- - 29 Aug 2004 20:32 GMT
What purpose do spoilers serve?

Are they supposed to *do* anything (one thing that springs to mind is some
form of streamlining???)

Or are they just purely there for "decoration"

??
DanTXD - 29 Aug 2004 20:43 GMT
> What purpose do spoilers serve?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ??

Depends on the car.

Signature

Dan
(formerly Dan405)

Carl Farrington - 29 Aug 2004 20:58 GMT
> What purpose do spoilers serve?
>
> Are they supposed to *do* anything (one thing that springs to mind is
> some form of streamlining???)
>
> Or are they just purely there for "decoration"

The purpose of rear spoilers is for downforce. Most cars do not need them
and they are just for show - to make the car look faster.
I think the Mark 4 Toyota Supra was the first to have the offensive sized
one, which has also been used on some Alfa 156's, and lots of other cars as
an aftermarket addition. (I remember reading once, years ago, of how such a
rear wing was stupid on any car but a Supra!)

There is a very good reason for the supra wing being so large though - it
doesn't obstruct the rear view, as it goes around the window instead of
through the middle of it.

At high speed, even a small spoiler can make a massive different to a cars
safety and handing. The Audi TT was recalled after multiple high-speed
accidents on the German Autobahns. The recall was to fit a small spoiler to
the back, and everyone said it hadn't taken Porsche too long to realise that
a spoiler was needed, and it was stupid that Audi hadn't done it from the
start. On many modern Porsches, the rear spoiler comes up electrically (it's
normally hidden) at a certain speed. It's been suggested that one way to
tell a porsche has had it's speedo disconnected (to freeze the odometer) is
if the rear spoiler isn't raised at motorway speeds.

Back to the Supra, this has an active front spoiler, which works just like
the Porsche rear spoiler. At 50mph, a lip comes down at the front to add
downforce. You can turn this on manually with a switch, but it will not come
or stay down below 30mph, so that you don't smash it on speed bumps and such
like.
Halmyre - 29 Aug 2004 21:09 GMT
> What purpose do spoilers serve?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ??

On a Lamborghini Countach, thay are probably of some benefit. I think
that the original 'clean' Countach actually generated some positive lift
at the rear wheels, albeit at silly speeds. The spoiler was added to
help glue the rear end to the road. Of course, this might just be

On a Vauxhall Corsa, it's quite possibly purely decoration. At worse,
the downforce generated by the spoiler will cause the steering to go
light and the baseball capped twat will end up in the shrubbery. Or is
that 'at best'?

Halmyre
Pete M - 29 Aug 2004 21:14 GMT
In news:iKqYc.1018$xZ3.155@newsfe2-win.ntli.net,
Halmyre <robert@SPAMLESShalmyre.abel.co.uk> decided to enlighten our
sheltered souls with a rant as follows

>> What purpose do spoilers serve?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> light and the baseball capped twat will end up in the shrubbery. Or is
> that 'at best'?

Definately for the best..

I took the boot spoiler off my Sapp Cossie a few years ago (was getting it
painted), and it certainly made a difference. Went from being seriously tail
happy to murderously tail happy....

Signature

Pete M

Ford Capri (presently dead) - Sierra XR4x4
Sierra 4x4 Twin Turbo Estate
COSOC #5
Scouse Git extraordinaire. Liverpool, Great Britain

Tim S Kemp - 29 Aug 2004 23:21 GMT
> On a Vauxhall Corsa, it's quite possibly purely decoration. At worse,
> the downforce generated by the spoiler will cause the steering to go
> light and the baseball capped twat will end up in the shrubbery. Or is
> that 'at best'?

cue calls of "A shrubbery?"

Signature

Snow cone? No no no -  don't worry - it's lemon...

Depresion - 29 Aug 2004 23:29 GMT
>> On a Vauxhall Corsa, it's quite possibly purely decoration. At worse,
>> the downforce generated by the spoiler will cause the steering to go
>> light and the baseball capped twat will end up in the shrubbery. Or is
>> that 'at best'?
>
> cue calls of "A shrubbery?"

Yes, it is a good shrubbery. I like the laurels particularly.
Halmyre - 30 Aug 2004 10:12 GMT
>>On a Vauxhall Corsa, it's quite possibly purely decoration. At worse,
>>the downforce generated by the spoiler will cause the steering to go
>>light and the baseball capped twat will end up in the shrubbery. Or is
>>that 'at best'?
>
> cue calls of "A shrubbery?"

Yes, but now with a little (Corsa shaped) path running through it...

Halmyre
David Thornber - 29 Aug 2004 21:41 GMT
>What purpose do spoilers serve?
>
>Are they supposed to *do* anything (one thing that springs to mind is some
>form of streamlining???)
>
>Or are they just purely there for "decoration"

On the vast majority of cars, they're a fashion accessory.  Like front
fog lights, they mysteriously transform a run of the mill repmobile into
a 'sports car'.

Even when they do perform a useful function, they're unlikely to do so
at UK legal road speeds.  The VW Corrado had one that electrically
deployed at the appropriate speed but, as this was somewhere in excess
of the UK national speed limit, they lowered the speed for the UK model
so that owners could actually play with the gimmick.

My car before this one was the same make and model as the one before it,
with the same size and design of engine.  The only significant
differences were alloy wheels, distributorless ignition, air-con
(switched off most of the time) and the fact that they'd glued a spoiler
to the boot.  The first one would average 38mpg, but the second only
averaged 35 with the same driving style.   I always held the spoiler as
being most responsible for the drop.
Signature

David Thornber

SteveH - 29 Aug 2004 22:52 GMT
> My car before this one was the same make and model as the one before it,
> with the same size and design of engine.  The only significant
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> averaged 35 with the same driving style.   I always held the spoiler as
> being most responsible for the drop.

We had a couple of near-identical Alfa 33s for a couple of years.

One was a 16v with spoiler, the other an 8v without.

On sweeping bends at 60 plus mph (private track, of course), the 16v
definitely felt more 'planted' at the back.
Signature

Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300
VW Golf GL Cabrio  -  Alfa 75 TS - Alfa 155 TS Lusso - COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

Douglas Payne - 30 Aug 2004 00:18 GMT
> > My car before this one was the same make and model as the one before it,
> > with the same size and design of engine.  The only significant
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> On sweeping bends at 60 plus mph (private track, of course), the 16v
> definitely felt more 'planted' at the back.

A chunk of GRP spoiler probably doubled the weight over the back wheels (c:

Incidentally (and completely unrelated to Alfas of course) does iron oxide
weigh more or less than steel?

Douglas
Pete M - 30 Aug 2004 00:28 GMT
In news:2pf6iiFk76enU1@uni-berlin.de,
Douglas Payne <douggie@cheerful.com> decided to enlighten our sheltered
souls with a rant as follows

>>> My car before this one was the same make and model as the one
>>> before it, with the same size and design of engine.  The only
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Incidentally (and completely unrelated to Alfas of course) does iron
> oxide weigh more or less than steel?

Less, I'd imagine...

Signature

Pete M

Ford Capri (presently dead) - Sierra XR4x4
Sierra 4x4 Twin Turbo Estate
COSOC #5
Scouse Git extraordinaire. Liverpool, Great Britain

Questions@quickwatchsales.com - 30 Aug 2004 10:35 GMT
>"SteveH" <steve@italiancar.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Incidentally (and completely unrelated to Alfas of course) does iron oxide
>weigh more or less than steel?

FWIW, Fe2O3, iron oxide ought to weigh about 150% of straight iron.

56 * 2 = 112
56 * 2 + 16 * 3 = 160

Lower density, though, and steel isn't pure iron.
Nick Drew - 30 Aug 2004 16:26 GMT
> >Incidentally (and completely unrelated to Alfas of course) does iron oxide
> >weigh more or less than steel?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Lower density, though, and steel isn't pure iron.

Iron oxide=rust!

So in theory a rusty car should weigh more than a not rusty one?

'FS: fantastic Alfa, complete with included oxygen*

*bonded to the panels in the form of iron oxide'

Nick
Adrian - 30 Aug 2004 17:45 GMT
>>Incidentally (and completely unrelated to Alfas of course) does iron
>>oxide weigh more or less than steel?
>
> FWIW, Fe2O3, iron oxide ought to weigh about 150% of straight iron.

You're forgetting to figure the weight lost through the bits that have
fallen off...
Questions@quickwatchsales.com - 29 Aug 2004 22:09 GMT
>What purpose do spoilers serve?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>??

Aerodynamics is a complex business and there are good designs and bad. It is
easy to bolt some pretty piece of plastic on and have it just produce worthless
drag forces.

A formula one car has spoilers for a reason, a Corsa 0.9 litre with a huge
spoiler, probably has it for a different reason.

It's easy to dismiss any add on as a piece of decoration, but even at ordinary
speeds a spoiler can be good aerodynamics.
Depresion - 29 Aug 2004 23:23 GMT
> What purpose do spoilers serve?

As the name suggests to spoil the airflow over the car, a car acts much like an
aeroplane wing (a very bad one but the same physics and forces are involved) and
as speeds increase they generate lift as air follows a longer path over the top
of the car than the bottom it has to travel faster and this reduces the pressure
above the vehicle so the air under the car forces it up (however slightly) a
spoiler will break the flow of air from the car thus reducing the effect.
Spoilers should not be confused with wings as used in motor sport or the bolt on
fast and furious style ones, motor sport wings are designed to create downforce
by using the same principles as above but obviously the other way round so the
low pressure is below the wing so the higher pressure pushes down (there is no
suck or pull only push) and god knows what the fast and furious style ones are
supposed to do other than look tacky and part fools & there money.
Depresion - 29 Aug 2004 23:29 GMT
>> What purpose do spoilers serve?
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> what the fast and furious style ones are supposed to do other than look tacky
> and part fools & there money.

Hmm could have done with a bit of punctuation in there but I was in full flow
and didn't want to stop. ;)
Steve Walker - 30 Aug 2004 12:25 GMT
>What purpose do spoilers serve?

Aftermarket ones are there to 'spoil' the appearance of the car.

Signature

Steve Walker

in2minds - 30 Aug 2004 13:38 GMT
> What purpose do spoilers serve?

very little or nothing on most cars

> Are they supposed to *do* anything (one thing that springs to mind is some
> form of streamlining???)

prettify ? see above

> Or are they just purely there for "decoration"

mostly

our C8 (the 807 and new Ulysse) has roof bars that can be slid together
to make what looks like a roof spoiler, looks nice but serves no purpose
other than to push fuel consumption up.
DanTXD - 30 Aug 2004 13:53 GMT
>> What purpose do spoilers serve?
>>
> our C8 (the 807 and new Ulysse) has roof bars that can be slid together
> to make what looks like a roof spoiler, looks nice but serves no purpose
> other than to push fuel consumption up.

Agreed.  On stuff like that, they serve no purpose.  But on a performance or
sports car, they can make a lot of difference.

Signature

Dan
(formerly Dan405)

Nick Drew - 30 Aug 2004 16:30 GMT
> What purpose do spoilers serve?
>
> Are they supposed to *do* anything (one thing that springs to mind is some
> form of streamlining???)
>
> Or are they just purely there for "decoration"

Mostly for 'decoration' - to make it look like the car is sufficiently fast
to warrant the need for downforce.

FWIW, the Escort Cosworth apparently had a need for a huge amount of
downforce at top speed to keep it on the road. Hence the huge spoiler that
can be seen from the moon in some cases. Which also takes 12mph off the top
speed, apparently.

Strangely though, come to think of it, the Lotus Carlton didn't have a huge
amount in the way of spoilers, did it?

Nick
SteveH - 30 Aug 2004 16:39 GMT
> > Or are they just purely there for "decoration"
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Strangely though, come to think of it, the Lotus Carlton didn't have a huge
> amount in the way of spoilers, did it?

I had a fair sized one on the boot, plus, ISTR, some fancy stuff going
on with airflow under the car and the rear bumper.

A saloon doesn't need a spoiler as much as a hatch does, though - the
'chopped off' rear end of a hatch doesn't nothing for the downforce.
Signature

Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300
VW Golf GL Cabrio  -  Alfa 75 TS - Alfa 155 TS Lusso - COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

Douglas Payne - 30 Aug 2004 21:27 GMT
> > What purpose do spoilers serve?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Strangely though, come to think of it, the Lotus Carlton didn't have a huge
> amount in the way of spoilers, did it?

Carltons are pretty aerodynamic (Cd 0.28 according to something I read once)
and were probably originally designed with rather higher top speeds in mind
than the escort.

Douglas
Steve Walker - 30 Aug 2004 23:22 GMT
>> FWIW, the Escort Cosworth apparently had a need for a huge amount of
>>downforce at top speed to keep it on the road. Hence the huge spoiler
>>that  can be seen from the moon in some cases. Which also takes 12mph
>>off the top  speed, apparently.

>> Strangely though, come to think of it, the Lotus Carlton didn't have
>>a huge  amount in the way of spoilers, did it?

>Carltons are pretty aerodynamic (Cd 0.28 according to something I read once)
>and were probably originally designed with rather higher top speeds in mind
>than the escort.

There wasn't a whole lot of Escort in the Cosworth anyway; it was about
six inches longer and a couple of inches wider than a normal Escort, and
genetically had more in common with the Sierra Cosworth.

I suspect that the obscene rear spoiler, like the big laggy turbo in
early cars, was there mostly because the purpose of the road car was to
homologate the rally car. I don't know how strict the rules are on
aerodynamic addenda in rallying.

I'd say the Carlton didn't need it because the design brief didn't
include being hurled sideways through Kielder forest :o)

Signature

Steve Walker

Halmyre - 31 Aug 2004 09:53 GMT
>>> FWIW, the Escort Cosworth apparently had a need for a huge amount of
>>> downforce at top speed to keep it on the road. Hence the huge spoiler
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> I'd say the Carlton didn't need it because the design brief didn't
> include being hurled sideways through Kielder forest :o)

WNow that would be worth seeing! I remember Armin Schwartz rallying an
Audi 200 Quattro Turbo many years ago, and some other nutcase rallying
an Opel Monza.

Halmyre
Steve Knight - 31 Aug 2004 19:14 GMT
> What purpose do spoilers serve?

99% of the time they're just there to help Police identify boy-racers and
other saddos.

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