Car Forum / UK Car Forums / General Car Topics (UK group) / September 2003
0-60 automatic figures?
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v155 - 21 Sep 2003 01:01 GMT Hello,
I was seriously thinking of getting an automatic car next, mainly because I do a lot of stop/start driving in the town and can't be bothered constantly changing gear! They seem to be a lot better now than they used to be. I remember when they clunked into gear and would drink petrol. What concerns me is that I never see any figures for 0-60 in an automatic car, the figures seem to be for manuals only. Are they slower and are they more or less expensive to insure? Has anyone been disappointed by going from manual to auto or ever gone back again?
Steve Knight - 21 Sep 2003 01:16 GMT > I was seriously thinking of getting an automatic car next, mainly because I > do a lot of stop/start driving in the town and can't be bothered constantly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Has anyone been disappointed by going from manual to auto or ever gone back > again? Automatic cars do still drink more fuel than manuals and you will pay a performance penalty on all but large and powerful engines.
However, auto boxes are vastly better than they used to be and modern engines are generally much more efficient and powerful. Accordingly, auto economy is not as bad as it once was and if most of your driving is around town you'll seldom notice a drop in performance.
It's a trade off really, if you want effortless town driving you have to pay a price - but it won't be massive and in my opinion it's well worth it. Given that most people spend 80% of their time driving in stop/start urban traffic I don't understand why everyone hasn't got an auto.
Insurance costs will be the same as the equivalent manual model.
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Mr Squiddy - 21 Sep 2003 11:12 GMT > Automatic cars do still drink more fuel than manuals and you will pay a > performance penalty on all but large and powerful engines. As an example my Saab 9-5 2.3t auto is reckoned to lose about 2mpg to the manual. This isn't a huge deal, particularly as you can get 35mpg fairly easily.
I would agree that if you are going for an automatic variant of a particular model then try and get the next engine size up. That little bit of extra horsepower does help with an auto.
> It's a trade off really, if you want effortless town driving you have to > pay a price - but it won't be massive and in my opinion it's well worth > it. Given that most people spend 80% of their time driving in stop/start > urban traffic I don't understand why everyone hasn't got an auto. I agree. Automatics just seem the natural way to do things. Manuals are fun if you are doing some country back road scratching but most of us just amble to work and back and why use both hands and feet when one of each will do?
P.
Steve Firth - 21 Sep 2003 01:23 GMT > What concerns me is that I never see any figures for 0-60 in an automatic > car, the figures seem to be for manuals only. The figures in most magazines give figures for autos as well as manuals. However it's a complete red herring. You as Mr Average car driver will never achieve the 0-60 times given for a manual car. OTOH you will achieve the 0-60 time for an auto over and over again without missing a single change.
> Are they slower One of my autos does 0-60 in 5.2s, the other does it in 9.0. Is that slow?
> and are they more or less expensive to insure? Than what?
> Has anyone been disappointed by going from manual to auto or ever gone back > again? Probably, but not me. I drive manuals and autos. Both are fun. Driving an auto is different, not inferior.
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Dave Plowman - 21 Sep 2003 19:40 GMT > The figures in most magazines give figures for autos as well as manuals. > However it's a complete red herring. You as Mr Average car driver will > never achieve the 0-60 times given for a manual car. OTOH you will > achieve the 0-60 time for an auto over and over again without missing a > single change. You probably won't achieve the road test figure in an auto either...
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Steve Firth - 22 Sep 2003 00:42 GMT > > The figures in most magazines give figures for autos as well as manuals. > > However it's a complete red herring. You as Mr Average car driver will [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You probably won't achieve the road test figure in an auto either... Just remember to turn off the aircon.
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Andy R - 29 Sep 2003 19:53 GMT > > > The figures in most magazines give figures for autos as well as manuals. > > > However it's a complete red herring. You as Mr Average car driver will [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Just remember to turn off the aircon. Mid acceleration figures and overtaking are usually supposed to be faster in a auto aren't they?
Zak McGregor - 29 Sep 2003 21:34 GMT > Mid acceleration figures and overtaking are usually supposed to be > faster in a auto aren't they? Only 'cause they don't (can't?) keep the auto boxes from shifting down under heavy acceleration (kickdown). For manual cars, they typically stick in certain gears for mid-range times.
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Dave Plowman - 21 Sep 2003 03:18 GMT > I was seriously thinking of getting an automatic car next, mainly > because I do a lot of stop/start driving in the town and can't be > bothered constantly changing gear! They seem to be a lot better now than > they used to be. I remember when they clunked into gear and would drink > petrol. No reason an older design of auto should clunk into gear unless it's faulty. The first auto I actually drove was a pre'60 Jag MK IX, and it was smooth as silk.
But anyway, modern autos have generally more ratios than of old including usually an overdrive which also locks out the torque convertor. This and the gearbox ECU talking to the engine one means that the fuel consumption difference is less.
> What concerns me is that I never see any figures for 0-60 in an > automatic car, the figures seem to be for manuals only. Are they slower > and are they more or less expensive to insure? Has anyone been > disappointed by going from manual to auto or ever gone back again? Autocar certainly test both types, although obviously not of every car. It's sometimes difficult to sort out what is an auto in their summaries, though.
In give and take motoring, an auto is usually faster than a manual in acceleration as it needs no skill to give of its best.
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Mike G - 21 Sep 2003 13:48 GMT > > What concerns me is that I never see any figures for 0-60 in an > > automatic car, the figures seem to be for manuals only. Are they slower [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > In give and take motoring, an auto is usually faster than a manual in > acceleration as it needs no skill to give of its best. As I understand it, the 0-60 figures given in most reports are achieved by what many, including myself, would consider, as abuse of the g/b. IOW, gearchanges as fast as possible, without any mechanical sympathy for the box or the transmission.. I doubt many of us would like to try and match those figures with our own car. Whereas anyone should be able to match them with an auto. I have wondered though, if they rev the engine, and hold the car with the brakes before they release them and start the clock.
Another point I've always considered, especially if buying s/h, is that an auto is less likely to have been thrashed. Unless it's locked in a gear, you can't redline it, or over rev it at all. I very seldom lock my SD1 in a gear, unless I'm towing and want the extra engine braking it gives.
About fuel consumption. I thaught the urban figures for an auto were usually better than the manual version of the same car. Mike.
Steve Knight - 21 Sep 2003 18:26 GMT > As I understand it, the 0-60 figures given in most reports are > achieved by what many, including myself, would consider, as > abuse of the g/b. A few years ago I was reading a report in one of the motoring magazine about some new muscle car.
At the launch, several journalists tried but failed to reach the car's reported 0-60 mph time and said as much to the manufacturer's representatives.
Along comes the manufacturer's head test driver and in his first try matches the 0-60 mph exactly. "How did you do it?" ask the journos.
"Simple," replies the test driver, "I didn't use the clutch when I changed gear."
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Mr Squiddy - 21 Sep 2003 18:41 GMT <snip>
> "Simple," replies the test driver, "I didn't use the clutch when I > changed gear." I used to do clutchless changes in a company van just for the hell of it. Matching the crank/gearbox speed is the trickiest bit.
The Saab 95 and 96 had a freewheel facility which meant you could do clutchless changes. Saved on petrol too as long as you didn't mind not having any engine braking.
Dave Plowman - 21 Sep 2003 21:27 GMT > The Saab 95 and 96 had a freewheel facility which meant you could do > clutchless changes. Saved on petrol too as long as you didn't mind not > having any engine braking. You didn't have much as they were two strokes. And this is why they had a freewheel - long downhill stretches with no throttle could cause the engine to seize through lack of oil.
As regards clutchless gearchanges with a freewheel, you still had to release the throttle especially on upchanges, as if the engine was going faster than the correct speed or lower, the freewheel had no effect.
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Mr Squiddy - 22 Sep 2003 13:18 GMT >> The Saab 95 and 96 had a freewheel facility which meant you could do >> clutchless changes. Saved on petrol too as long as you didn't mind not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > freewheel - long downhill stretches with no throttle could cause the > engine to seize through lack of oil. Indeed, but the freewheel was also available on the later four-strokes.
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Dave Plowman - 22 Sep 2003 13:51 GMT > > You didn't have much as they were two strokes. And this is why they > > had a freewheel - long downhill stretches with no throttle could cause > > the engine to seize through lack of oil.
> Indeed, but the freewheel was also available on the later four-strokes. Yup. They were popular on Rovers also until the overdrive arrived.
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Doki - 21 Sep 2003 19:32 GMT > > As I understand it, the 0-60 figures given in most reports are > > achieved by what many, including myself, would consider, as [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > "Simple," replies the test driver, "I didn't use the clutch when I changed > gear." How's that work then? Just ram it into gear? I find clutchless changes pretty difficult, and certainly not often quicker than with the clutch.
Tom West - 23 Sep 2003 14:26 GMT >A few years ago I was reading a report in one of the motoring magazine about >some new muscle car. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >"Simple," replies the test driver, "I didn't use the clutch when I changed >gear." I believe that was the Corvette ZR-1... so a good few years ago. I think it had a gearbox out of some Chevy truck/pick-up which helped.
--- Tom
Tim S Kemp - 21 Sep 2003 18:30 GMT > As I understand it, the 0-60 figures given in most reports are > achieved by what many, including myself, would consider, as [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > wondered though, if they rev the engine, and hold the car with > the brakes before they release them and start the clock. or even rev the engine in neutral then drop it into drive...
Mike G - 21 Sep 2003 20:17 GMT > > As I understand it, the 0-60 figures given in most reports are > > achieved by what many, including myself, would consider, as [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > or even rev the engine in neutral then drop it into drive... LOL. Didn't think of that one, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did. 0-60 figures mean a lot to some people, and maybe to sales. Mike
Tim S Kemp - 22 Sep 2003 08:35 GMT > LOL. Didn't think of that one, but it wouldn't surprise me if > they did. > 0-60 figures mean a lot to some people, and maybe to sales. > Mike I can match the book 0-60 in my volvo with nothing in the boot and 4000 revs and a quick clutch release, only managed it once, normally I'll get 9-10s.
However we can get a Leon Cupra, THREE UP to crack sub 7 every time. I think the main problem is variation in output between vehicles.
Andrew Thomas - 23 Sep 2003 11:11 GMT > As I understand it, the 0-60 figures given in most reports are > achieved by what many, including myself, would consider, as [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > all. I very seldom lock my SD1 in a gear, unless I'm towing and > want the extra engine braking it gives. Generally, ekeing acceleration times in a manual involves:
- holding the engine somewheree between its torque and power peaks, which would be between 4,000 and 5,000 rpm - dumping the clutch and applying full throttle simultaneously - revving to around the redline and changing gear with the throttle at least half-open such that during the brief period in which the clutch is depressed, the engine maintains "free" revs somewhere between the crank speed when exiting first gear (e.g. 6,500 rpm) and entering second (e.g. 4,500 rpm) - only partly depressing the clutch during the change - sidestepping the clutch once second is selected, then kicking the throttle home again.
Very powerful cars, unless traction control is fitted, will not take full gas in first, at least not from rest.
Not that launching a 4WD requires a sidestepped clutch at the redline to break traction. Which is why an Impreza Turbo can manage 60 mph so quickly. But only a limited number of times.
It's possible to do this while minimising wear on the drivetrain if you're a very good driver. Can the average moron manage this, and reliably achieve the kinds of times quoted in magazines? Probably not.
DervMan - 21 Sep 2003 08:31 GMT > Hello, > > I was seriously thinking of getting an automatic car next, mainly because I > do a lot of stop/start driving in the town and can't be bothered constantly > changing gear! They're great for this sort of driving. Actually, well read on, but I like automatics.
> They seem to be a lot better now than they used to be. I remember when they > clunked into gear and would drink petrol. Or diesel, of course.
> What concerns me is that I never > see any figures for 0-60 in an automatic car, the figures seem to be for > manuals only. A few pointers, as other people have made. First off, 0 - 60 isn't especially relevant or important. In a city, I'd suppose that 0 - 30 is more important, but then whilst people can pull off smartly from rest, surely they don't use the rev limiter each and every time?
Of more importance is what happens when you boot it at, say, 30 or 40, to overtake that HGV / old couple / whatever.
In these occasions, automatic transmission performance can vary - but these days, most engine ECUs communicate with the transmission to make things better. Okay, so the driver may have to put the transmission into the right mode (see below), but otherwise, they're point and squirt cars to drive. You don't have to think about what gear to use, you just accelerate and it does it all for you.
Sure, in some cars, you may need to "accelerate" sooner, so that the transmission selects the right gear it needs for a burst of power, but ultimately they're easier to drive in these circumstances.
> Are they slower and are they more or less expensive to insure? Slower? Not materially. I suppose you could argue that the very best drivers could extract more performance from a manual, but to be fair we're only talking a few percent, and not really relevant to the road.
They should cost the same to insure, but when I worked rather more closely with the motoro insurance world, we found that insuring a Austin Metro 1.3 automatic, it was significantly less than the manual equivalent! I'd suppose too many old people bought 'em? :)
> Has anyone been disappointed by going from manual to auto or ever gone back > again? My Dad had a mid-1980s Mercedes Benz 190E 2.0 automatic, with two modes. Lovely transmission, in economy mode, it would change up very early on. However, if you wanted to overtake something and it was in economy mode, you had to floor it, and it would then select the lowest possible gear to overtake. So at 45 it'd drop you into second gear and you'd get rather more acceleration than you needed. Now of course, my Dad didn't read the handbook when he bought the car, so was a bit disappointed with this, and had gotten into the habit of manually changing down to third for the above circumstance.
Then along comes his nerdy son, who read the handbook, and gets him to use "Normal" mode. Why? Well, because in "Normal" mode, however, it'd drop you into third gear with significantly less pressure, making for a much smoother overtake.
I also learnt that under most circumstances, the car moved off in second gear, it only used first if you were in normal mode and you gave the accelerator quite a prod.
Many modern automatics have five ratios these days. Some automatics have quicker quoted acceleration times than their manual brethren - the Mercedes Benz C-Class being one example.
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Dave Plowman - 21 Sep 2003 10:10 GMT > In these occasions, automatic transmission performance can vary - but > these days, most engine ECUs communicate with the transmission to make > things better. Okay, so the driver may have to put the transmission > into the right mode (see below), but otherwise, they're point and squirt > cars to drive. On many autos, the use of kickdown over-rides any mode setting.
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Steve Firth - 21 Sep 2003 11:10 GMT > > In these occasions, automatic transmission performance can vary - but > > these days, most engine ECUs communicate with the transmission to make [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > On many autos, the use of kickdown over-rides any mode setting. Not on the Exploder. Use of High ratio 4WD and selecting "2" using the gear selector actually locks the box into third for use on snow and mud. Kickdown is disabled. A bit embarassing if you emerge from a muddy road onto tarmac and attempt to accelerate. Not much happens for a long time until you pop the lever into "D".
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DervMan - 21 Sep 2003 12:42 GMT > > In these occasions, automatic transmission performance can vary - but > > these days, most engine ECUs communicate with the transmission to make [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > On many autos, the use of kickdown over-rides any mode setting. Indeedy, on many modern ones, aie. I was citing the specific example of my Dad's Merc.
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Tim.. - 21 Sep 2003 19:48 GMT > > In these occasions, automatic transmission performance can vary - but > > these days, most engine ECUs communicate with the transmission to make [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > On many autos, the use of kickdown over-rides any mode setting. It does yes, but on most the change down / up points in kickdown are dependant on the mode switch.
For instance in the company S70 2.5 auto, in econ mode the upshifts occcur at about 5000rpm, whereas in sport mode its 6300rpm. Similarly, if you use kickdown at around 50mph, it will only drop to 3rd in econ, but will drop to 2nd in sport.
Tim..
PR - 21 Sep 2003 10:37 GMT > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Has anyone been disappointed by going from manual to auto or ever gone back > again? Have you got a specific model in mind??
Not many people regret moving to an automatic. There are the "diehards", but they would never even vaguely consider the idea in the first place.
There are good and bad examples of just about anything, but make the right choice and neither performance nor fuel consumption should be a real issue - nor for that matter should driving enjoyment - far more advantages than disadvantages for most people most of the time.
Many would advise avoiding the CVT type though (not least because of question marks over long term reliability).
v155 - 21 Sep 2003 13:11 GMT Hello,
I was thinking of either a 1.8 or 2litre Focus, a petrol one. I have been having a look for reviews. It will not be a new one, maybe a 3 year old model. People did try to put me off by saying that if you accelerated too hard to overtake they could change down a gear or two, take off and cause problems. But I could do that in a manual! Then the stuff about getting brake fading down hills because the engine raced away. I think that can be solved now by just changing the gear. I'm not sure why most people I have spoken to just don't like an automatic!
> Have you got a specific model in mind?? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Many would advise avoiding the CVT type though (not least because of > question marks over long term reliability). DervMan - 21 Sep 2003 13:48 GMT > Hello, > > I was thinking of either a 1.8 or 2litre Focus, a petrol one. Do Ford offer automatic 1.8 or 2.0 Focii these days?
> I have been having a look for reviews. It will not be a new one, maybe a 3 > year old model. Hmm. They did offer the 1.6 for a while, but stopped selling it.
> People did try to put me off by saying that if you accelerated too hard to > overtake they could change down a gear or two, take off and cause problems. You mean, when you accelerate it'll change down, when you lift off, it'll change up?
> But I could do that in a manual! Then the stuff about getting brake fading > down hills because the engine raced away. I think that can be solved now by > just changing the gear. I'm not sure why most people I have spoken to just > don't like an automatic! Me neither, these are simply excuses for people not reading the instructions properly! When descending a steep hill, you can put the transmission into a lower gear if you need to. Just as you would with a manual, really!
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Dave Plowman - 21 Sep 2003 19:38 GMT > People did try to put me off by saying that if you accelerated too hard > to overtake they could change down a gear or two, take off and cause > problems. They'll only change down a gear or two if you're pressing hard enough meaning you want more acceleration. Few would put their foot hard down at low revs in a high gear on a manual - there'd be no point. They'd change down, and that's what an auto does. Of course, if you force it into max acceleration on a wet roundabout, you could be in trouble, but people who think like that shouldn't be driving.
> But I could do that in a manual! Then the stuff about getting > brake fading down hills because the engine raced away. What modern car suffers from brake fade under normal use - that's going back to the days of small drum brakes.
> I think that can > be solved now by just changing the gear. I'm not sure why most people I > have spoken to just don't like an automatic! Most likely they have never driven one for long enough to get used to it, or know how to get the best out of it.
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Tim.. - 21 Sep 2003 19:51 GMT > Hello, > > I was thinking of either a 1.8 or 2litre Focus, a petrol one. > I have been having a look for reviews. It will not be a new one, maybe a 3 > year old model. A 3yr old Focus auto will be the hideously unreliable 1.6 with the madza box, which was withdrawn from sale due to its problems for atime.
2000MY onwards 1.6autos are cured and I havent heard of a single failure, and from 2001 the 2.0 was available with auto box.
IMHO the 1.6 is slow enough as it is with a manual, so I'd only bother at looking at the 2litre.
Tim..
Oliver Keating - 23 Sep 2003 13:12 GMT > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Has anyone been disappointed by going from manual to auto or ever gone back > again? The main drawback with an auto' transmission is the clutch. This has traditionally been hydraulic, whereby the engine shaft connects to a series of blades in one side, and another set of blades that sits opposite it is connected to the gearbox, all of which is in a fluid.
As the engine spins up, the blades cause the fluid in the clutch to rotate, which "encourages" the blades on the transmission side to spin up.
It doesn't take a genious to see that this is not very efficient, as there is no direct connection between the engine and transmission. But therein lies the problem - a normal clutch requires quite a delicate action that is fine for humans but difficult for machines (although this is changing slightly with semi-autos).
However, hydraulic clutches have become a lot more sophisitcated in the last few years. In the past they have been really appalling, sapping power and producing poor economy - one of the reasons for being frequently reffered to as "slush" boxes.
However, modern ones have all sorts of cunning, such as the the abilitiy of the blades in the clutch to change pitch and angle, and some even "lock-up" once engine and transmission speeds are matched meaning you have no performance or economy penalties over a regular manual. I think our Merc has something like this as the transmission feels very tight, there seems to be no play between engine speed and road speed.
As for performance- bear in mind 0-60 times for auto's and manuals are not directly comparable. Manual cars have to be expertly driven to achieve the best times, including tricks like dumping the clutch. With auto's what you see is what you get.
As for economy, I would reckon that in reality modern auto's can be better than in a manual, they seem to shift up as soon as possible, and generally shift more often, while often people driving a manual tend to be lazy about gear selection, leaving it in 3rd around town when really 5th would do.
But really my advice is just to go and try one. In the old days I would never have considered an auto, they were far too slushy, and really reserved for geriactrics. I especially didn't like the delay you get when pulling away, making emerging at busy junctions and roundabouts tricky.
But have a try of a few auto's. Some are definately better than others, Mercs generally reputed to be the best.
Dave Plowman - 23 Sep 2003 16:22 GMT > The main drawback with an auto' transmission is the clutch. This has > traditionally been hydraulic, whereby the engine shaft connects to a > series of blades in one side, and another set of blades that sits > opposite it is connected to the gearbox, all of which is in a fluid. I think you mean the torque convertor. Autos also have several clutches which is how they change ratios.
What you're describing is more akin to a fluid flywheel, which aren't used on cars these days. The torque convertor has an additional intermediate set of vanes called a stator.
> As the engine spins up, the blades cause the fluid in the clutch to > rotate, which "encourages" the blades on the transmission side to spin > up.
> It doesn't take a genious to see that this is not very efficient, as > there is no direct connection between the engine and transmission. But > therein lies the problem - a normal clutch requires quite a delicate > action that is fine for humans but difficult for machines (although this > is changing slightly with semi-autos). There is no direct connection between flywheel and clutch in a manual either when you're moving off - you have to allow it to slip until under way. Then it becomes a direct connection.
> However, hydraulic clutches have become a lot more sophisitcated in the > last few years. In the past they have been really appalling, sapping > power and producing poor economy - one of the reasons for being > frequently reffered to as "slush" boxes.
> However, modern ones have all sorts of cunning, such as the the abilitiy > of the blades in the clutch to change pitch and angle, and some even > "lock-up" once engine and transmission speeds are matched meaning you > have no performance or economy penalties over a regular manual. I think > our Merc has something like this as the transmission feels very tight, > there seems to be no play between engine speed and road speed. The B-W DG box of the '50s locked the torque convertor in top gear. It's hardly a new idea.
What you've totally missed in why modern autos are far more efficient is that they have more ratios - M-B have just announced a 7 speed. By shortening the gaps between ratios you need the torque convertor less, so it can be locked out immediately after a change. The torque convertor is still necessary for a smooth change, though, as well as starting off.
> As for performance- bear in mind 0-60 times for auto's and manuals are > not directly comparable. Manual cars have to be expertly driven to > achieve the best times, including tricks like dumping the clutch. With > auto's what you see is what you get.
> As for economy, I would reckon that in reality modern auto's can be > better than in a manual, they seem to shift up as soon as possible, and > generally shift more often, while often people driving a manual tend to > be lazy about gear selection, leaving it in 3rd around town when really > 5th would do.
> But really my advice is just to go and try one. In the old days I would > never have considered an auto, they were far too slushy, and really > reserved for geriactrics. I especially didn't like the delay you get > when pulling away, making emerging at busy junctions and roundabouts > tricky. This was far more to do with European engines than the actual autos. The engines tended to be small and relatively high revving. For an example of a decent early UK auto, the first Rover P6 3500 was pretty rapid for its day with only a three speed BW 35. But that same box in a Cortina gave lethargic performance.
> But have a try of a few auto's. Some are definately better than others, > Mercs generally reputed to be the best. They are indeed, although they and ZF tend to leap frog one another. But I'd be watching the Asian Warner sequential change box as fitted to Audi. It's basically a synchromesh box with servo operation and a pair of conventional clutches, which gets round the rough changing of earlier versions of this type of transmission.
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