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Car Forum / UK Car Forums / Classic Cars (UK group) / January 2005Stop and go? Nothing new!
Just skimmed through a road test of the latest Citroen something-or-other in a Sunday paper (OK, it's Tuesday, I'm a slow reader). Apparently they have this wonderful fuel-saving innovation. When you stop at traffic lights the engine cuts out. When the lights change to green you just depress the accelerator and the engine restarts. Now, I'm quite sure this was a feature on a much earlier car - I suspect 1920's? But I can't remember what it was. Any thoughts, NG? Personally, if any of my cars starts at all then I'm overjoyed and try hard to keep it running. The thought of voluntarily turning off the engine and then trusting it to restart with a queue of repmobiles behind all competing to see who has the loudest horn appalls. And I wonder how many batteries and starter motors this thing gets through. Seriously, though, does anybody know what the earlier car was? I have in mind that it was something quite luxurious - Daimler? Lanchester? Or was it an odd-ball - Swift? Bean? I can remember parts of the original road test, such as how it amazed pedestrians by sitting silently and then apprently restarting itself, but I'm afraid it's down the gaslit end of my memory bank. Any ideas? Geoff MacK > Just skimmed through a road test of the latest Citroen something-or-other > in [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Geoff MacK don't know the older one, but recently the vw polo had it. there used to be a combined generator starter that would have been ideal for the job mrcheerful yea they did it on the early mk2 polo formel e model and some of the golfs, waste of time as i worked in a garge and the amount of starters thet we changed was silly .... > > Just skimmed through a road test of the latest Citroen something-or-other > > in [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > mrcheerful You are probably thinking of the Lucas Startix. It was used by Rover and I think Hillman among others in the 1930's. It was not thought to be too reliable and so a lot of people disabled it. Malcolm > yea they did it on the early mk2 polo formel e model and some of the > golfs, [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >> >> mrcheerful mrcheerful . <nbkm57@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:5jFvd.37079$up1.14716@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk... > there used to be a combined generator starter that would have been ideal for > the job The Goggomobile Royale had a combined unit on the end of the crankshaft. Under normal conditions it charged the battery. When you operated the starter, a relay changed some wiring and the battery spun the engine with it. It worked well, and with no bendix and starter ring it was almost silent until the engine fired. Jim > The Goggomobile Royale had a combined unit on the end of the crankshaft. > Under normal conditions it charged the battery. When you operated the > starter, a relay changed some wiring and the battery spun the engine with > it. It worked well, and with no bendix and starter ring it was almost > silent until the engine fired. IIRC, Dynastart.  Signature*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > don't know the older one, but recently the vw polo had it. > > there used to be a combined generator starter that would have been ideal for > the job I think that was the Dynastart, fitted to various bubble cars. Never heard of it being used for this application, though. Geoff MacK > > don't know the older one, but recently the vw polo had it. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Geoff MacK It was on my BMW Isetta of 1961. Very effective, quiet starting and worked faultlessly for years. It even put up with the starter key being turned when running. I believe that the industry is thinking of going back to a similar system when cars go to 42V. Graham Holloway "Geoff Mackenzie" <geoff@acsysindia.freeserve.co.uk> realised it was Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:25:34 -0000 and decided it was time to write: >Seriously, though, does anybody know what the earlier car was? I have in >mind that it was something quite luxurious - Daimler? Lanchester? Or was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >pedestrians by sitting silently and then apprently restarting itself, but >I'm afraid it's down the gaslit end of my memory bank. Must've been a steam car. They're perfectly silent when stationary - and hardly make a sound when rolling. SignatureY. > >Seriously, though, does anybody know what the earlier car was? I have in > >mind that it was something quite luxurious - Daimler? Lanchester? Or was > >it an odd-ball - Swift? Bean? I drove an Audi 80 in the 80s that had it, and used to scare me. you could press a button like the indicator stalk, or something, to force it on or off.. I recall that the Austin Allegro had this, and along with the square steering wheel and hydrolastic suspension just shows what a good idea it was. I can't remember whether it was supposed to be for saving fuel or to be kinder to the environment tho'. m > I recall that the Austin Allegro had this You recall wrong. >> I recall that the Austin Allegro had this > >You recall wrong. It had a talking dashboard, though. Perhaps it said "Switch the fscking engine off!" when you stopped at a junction? -- Ian >>> I recall that the Austin Allegro had this >>You recall wrong. > It had a talking dashboard, though. Perhaps it said "Switch the > fscking engine off!" when you stopped at a junction? The All-aggro? Talking dashes in the early 70s? I think not. That was the Monstro pair. >>>> I recall that the Austin Allegro had this > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >That was the Monstro pair. Ah yes, you're right. Just the Maestro though, I think - and it was an Allegro in drag. -- Ian > >The All-aggro? Talking dashes in the early 70s? I think not. > > > >That was the Monstro pair. > Ah yes, you're right. Just the Maestro though, I think - and it was an > Allegro in drag. Nothing like the Allegro - apart from sharing some engines. But then so do Range Rover and Jaguar. With a few assorted Fords. Signature*Too many clicks spoil the browse * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> Ah yes, you're right. Just the Maestro though, I think - and it was >> an Allegro in drag. > Nothing like the Allegro - apart from sharing some engines. But then > so do Range Rover and Jaguar. With a few assorted Fords. Circular link... First-shape Disco used Mastro van headlights and tail lights. >>> Ah yes, you're right. Just the Maestro though, I think - and it was >>> an Allegro in drag. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >First-shape Disco used Mastro van headlights and tail lights. Used so many parts from the Leyland parts bin it looked like a Maestro Van in bad light. Weren't the door handles from it also? Alex >>First-shape Disco used Maestro van headlights and tail lights. > Used so many parts from the Leyland parts bin it looked like a Maestro > Van in bad light. Weren't the door handles from it also? Bad light? > >First-shape Disco used Mastro van headlights and tail lights. > > Used so many parts from the Leyland parts bin it looked like a Maestro > Van in bad light. Weren't the door handles from it also? They're Marina door handles. SignatureSteve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - Alfa 155 TS Lusso - COSOC KOTL BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >> >First-shape Disco used Mastro van headlights and tail lights. >> >> Used so many parts from the Leyland parts bin it looked like a Maestro >> Van in bad light. Weren't the door handles from it also? > >They're Marina door handles. Like on Lotus Esprits? SignatureChris Morriss >>They're Marina door handles. > Like on Lotus Esprits? "Lotus Esprit door handles, like Morris used for the Marina" >Used so many parts from the Leyland parts bin it looked like a Maestro >Van in bad light. Weren't the door handles from it also? Used Morris Marina handles iirc.. sPonIx > >>>> I recall that the Austin Allegro had this > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Ian I was working for a software development company at the time the talking dashboard came out. One of the team came up with the idea of fitting a sensor to the brake pedal, so that if ever you used maximum (i.e. panic) braking the dashboard would say "oh, shiiiit". The car got its revenge - he rolled one, and recalls hanging upside down from his seatbelt while the dashboard kept warning him his oil level was low. Geoff MacK > >> I recall that the Austin Allegro had this > > > >You recall wrong. > It had a talking dashboard, though. Perhaps it said "Switch the > fscking engine off!" when you stopped at a junction? You recall wrong again. Signature*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > "Geoff Mackenzie" <geoff@acsysindia.freeserve.co.uk> realised it was > Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:25:34 -0000 and decided it was time to write: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Must've been a steam car. They're perfectly silent when stationary - and > hardly make a sound when rolling. No, definitely internal combustion engine. Geoff MacK > Just skimmed through a road test of the latest Citroen > something-or-other in a Sunday paper (OK, it's Tuesday, I'm a slow [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Now, I'm quite sure this was a feature on a much earlier car - I > suspect 1920's? But I can't remember what it was. Any thoughts, NG? You need to have a BIG word with your newsagent, and change to a half- decent paper. Citroen have been half-pushing this "technology" for about 5-6 years. Even that's nothing new. As others have said - Several 80s VWs used this. Before it was decided to be yet another crap dead-end. > Now, I'm quite sure this was a feature on a much earlier car - I suspect > 1920's? But I can't remember what it was. Any thoughts, NG? There was an aftermarket add on made by IITC Smiths in the '50s - Easystart? But I think its main purpose was to restart a stalled car - declutch and it would start. Signature*Why isn't 11 pronounced onety one? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > The thought of voluntarily turning off the engine and then trusting it > to restart with a queue of repmobiles behind all competing to see who > has the loudest horn appalls. And I wonder how many batteries and > starter motors this thing gets through. I'd also love to see the figures. Starters, alternators and batteries are anything but 100% efficient. And stopping and restarting an engine within a short period is likely to use more fuel than leaving it running. Signature*Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> The thought of voluntarily turning off the engine and then trusting it >> to restart with a queue of repmobiles behind all competing to see who [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > anything but 100% efficient. And stopping and restarting an engine within > a short period is likely to use more fuel than leaving it running. There is an efficient system though, the engine is stopped using variable valve timing, so that one cylinder is just over compression, to restart that cylinder is lit with a rather large spark and it all comes back to life, only lasts for a short stop though. I can't remember whether it was actually manufactured or just on Tomorrows World though. mrcheerful > >> The thought of voluntarily turning off the engine and then trusting it > >> to restart with a queue of repmobiles behind all competing to see who [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > only lasts for a short stop though. I can't remember whether it was > actually manufactured or just on Tomorrows World though. On the 1928 Rolls-Royce 20 I used many years ago you could usually start the engine by simply turning on the ignition and swinging the advance/retard lever through full deflection. This would cause a spark in one of the cylinders, enough to start the engine. Good party trick. Geoff MacK > On the 1928 Rolls-Royce 20 I used many years ago you could usually start the > engine by simply turning on the ignition and swinging the advance/retard > lever through full deflection. This would cause a spark in one of the > cylinders, enough to start the engine. Good party trick. That's interesting - would there be any detrimental effect from repeatedly doing this? If not, why isn't this system used to start all engines - ie. a single spark, or cascade of sparks starting from the cylinder likely to have most "charge" left in it... ...somehow I think I've just answered my own question. Could it be arranged that an electrically-derived fuel vapour cloud is added into all cylinders before the attempt, then spark ignited - compression may not be ideal but all you're looking for is a start. Wouldn't this be a more mechanically sympathetic way to start a petrol engine rather than having to employ a starter motor, complete with it's battery-depleting downside and failure potential? I presume we're still using starter motors for a good reason... Very curious. Need data input! Google it... http://www.fleetnewsnet.co.uk/news/view_article.asp?s=view_article&art_ID=30997 "Additionally, Bosch plans to add a cost-effective automatic 'start-stop' function to its injection system, to reduce fuel consumption in stop-and-go traffic by turning the engine off automatically when it isn't needed. The gentlest press of the accelerator starts the engine again, without the use of a starter motor. This new function of the direct injection system can fire up a combustion engine simply by igniting the combustion mixture, so decreasing fuel consumption by 5%. Dr Rolf Leonhard, vice-president of development, Gasoline Systems Division, admitted that on a very cold engine Directstart can't do the job alone, and so isn't a substitute for a starter motor, although the starter can be smaller and lighter." SignatureKen Davidson DocDelete >On the 1928 Rolls-Royce 20 I used many years ago you could usually start the >engine by simply turning on the ignition and swinging the advance/retard >lever through full deflection. This would cause a spark in one of the >cylinders, enough to start the engine. Good party trick. > >Geoff MacK My 1926 20hp will still do this, although not every time. In old RR circles it is considered to be a rough test of whether everything is in reasonable tune. It reminds me of a test used on Daimlers fitted with fluid flywheels. You drove the car forwards in first gear at about 2mph and then selected reverse. If the car came to a gentle stop and then started moving backwards the transmission was in good condition. Peter (Remove 'spam' to e-mail) SignaturePeter Adams, Lincolnshire, England I agree with everything Geoff says, also cannot remember the specific vehicle. Sounds like it would happily accompany a pre-selector gearbox. Peter www.thecopshop.co.uk/classix > Just skimmed through a road test of the latest Citroen something-or-other > in [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Geoff MacK woolsley hornet and wasp had starter solenoid operated by manifold vacuum,tricky to adjust. > Just skimmed through a road test of the latest Citroen something-or-other in > a Sunday paper (OK, it's Tuesday, I'm a slow reader). [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Geoff MacK > Now, I'm quite sure this was a feature on a much earlier car - I suspect > 1920's? But I can't remember what it was. Any thoughts, NG? > Seriously, though, does anybody know what the earlier car was? I have in > mind that it was something quite luxurious - Daimler? Lanchester? Or was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Geoff MacK I think you may be thinking of the Lucas Startix, which found it's way into all sorts of cars in the late thirties. >> Now, I'm quite sure this was a feature on a much earlier car - I >suspect [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I think you may be thinking of the Lucas Startix, which found it's way >into all sorts of cars in the late thirties. Siba Dynastart and a Bosch system was common on bikes. http://www.messerschmitt.co.uk/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=26 Yamaha and Suziki used similar devices on the smaller 2 strokes of the 70's like the RD200 and GT185. As the dynamo doubled up as a starter it saved weight. None of the older combined dynamo devices are up to frequent starts of stop go city traffic. Nor is any current DC conventional starter motor. They are all based on running the motor in a highly overloaded condition for a short time. Before re-starting it needs time to dissipate the heat that the overload condition causes. http://www.citroen.co.uk/level4/generalpage.asp?pagetype=techfuture The Citroen Xsara Dynactive parallel hybrid uses a much higher power AC generator/motor that can deliver the power needed to start the engine without running in overload. It also can use the electric motor to assist the engine when power demand is high or without the IC engine for pulling off and low speed use. Along the way the engineers have forgotten a simple aid to quick starting with low cranking power demand. It's called a de-compressor. It was petty much only a motorcycle or other small engine thing so most car makers engineering departments would be completely unaware of the device. I've got copies of Ricardo's High speed internal combustion engine, Marter Engines and Newton and Steed's the Motor Vehicle - still the standard text after umpteen revisions and none of them mention the device. but current C3 STOP AND START http://www.citroen.co.uk/level4/generalpage.asp?pagetype=techcurrent Have to keep red hot brake pads in contact with red hot discs to stop motor restarting. Going to be a whole lot of "warped" discs real soon. > Along the way the engineers have forgotten a simple aid to quick > starting with low cranking power demand. It's called a de-compressor. Possibly, but I'd guess that it would do nasty things to the emissions at start time - hence negating the whole idea. Signature*TEAMWORK...means never having to take all the blame yourself * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >Subject: Re: Stop and go? Nothing new! >From: bwatt@mac.com [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >I think you may be thinking of the Lucas Startix, which found it's way >into all sorts of cars in the late thirties. These Startix were fitted to cars such as the A.C. They worked by sensing dynamo voltage and when the volts went below a certain level they kicked in the starter. The other method of 'silent' starting was with a dynastart. This acts as a dynamo and doubles as a starter and the car appears to cough into life as if by magic. Andy |
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