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Car Forum / UK Car Forums / Classic Cars (UK group) / January 2009It's been an expensive year....
Just a few notes on things which have happened this year, posted in the hope that they may save others from making the same mistakes. My car (as long-term readers will know) is a 1966 E-Type Roadster, owned by me since 1976. It's been through all the usual evolutions from old sports car in decent nick, to everyday transport, to rusting old heap which will get restored some day, to fully restored and well and truly used. Could now be a concours winner given a week's work, but I don't do Q-Tips and lining up the letters on the tyres. Good luck to them wot do, but I prefer driving the thing, not taking it to events on a trailer. Roll back four or five years - had a sroke, DVLA said thou shalt not drive. So car stored for a couple of years. Didn't expect it to be so long before I got my licence back so didn't take the correct actions - just shoved it into the garage. Fast forward- licence restored, driving again. E-Type running beautifully. Now unable to do even routine maintenance, entrusted the car to "Jaguar Specialist" for servicing. On third visit (yes, it does have rather short service intervals) it started to run on five rather than the six which Sir William intended. Thought it was probably a dodgy plug cap - happened before - but a compression test indicated 50/60 on five of them, but zero on no 3. Head off, melted piston. Former aircraft engineer friend did a bit of forensic engineering and found stuck linkage to the middle carburettor. Therefore ran permanently lean on middle two pots, equals hot combustion, equals melted piston. For the want of a few drops of oil on the appropriate bit of linkage a pretty hefty bill. So - all bolted back together, back on the road. Only problem was a loss of water. Not much - a kettle-full after every 100 mile fast run or so. Not really a problem, just worrying. Tried replacing all hoses, catch tank to see if it was rad pressure - all sorts of things. Finally jury rigged a device which indicated water coming into the cylinder on no 4. No option - engine out, strip down, found a cylinder liner corroded (from the outside). Only possibility is that it occurred while the car was laid up - if I had realised it would be so long I would have drained all the fluids. Had to strip down engine completely before taking to engineering shop for new liners. Horror - all main bearings down to copper, including the thrust washers each side of the centre main. Big ends OK. Conclusion after much thought, later verified by measurement - crank which had been reground about 10,000 miles ago during first engine rebuild was actually three thou out of true. It's quite a long crank, and needs a supporting piece in the centre when machining - either it was left out or fitted upside down by the firm who did the job originally. Anyway, all back together now and running well. Looking forward to terrorizing the natives again. Hope this tale of woe helps others to avoid my mishaps! Geoff MacK "Geoff Mackenzie" <gmac@chapterfive.org.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: > So - all bolted back together, back on the road. Only problem was a > loss of water. Not much - a kettle-full after every 100 mile fast run [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the car was laid up - if I had realised it would be so long I would have > drained all the fluids. Was it filled with neat water or a proper coolant mix? I'm quite surprised if it corroded with coolant in there. > Hope this tale of woe helps others to avoid my mishaps! Indeed. I have no intention of owning an E... <g> Good news that it's healthy again. > "Geoff Mackenzie" <gmac@chapterfive.org.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much > like they were saying: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Was it filled with neat water or a proper coolant mix? I'm quite > surprised if it corroded with coolant in there. Had the appropriate antifreeze with all the usual corrosion inhibitors. Head came off the studs easily which is usually a giveaway. I was surprised too. > Indeed. I have no intention of owning an E... Ah well, not to everybody's taste! > <g> > > Good news that it's healthy again. "Geoff Mackenzie" <gmac@chapterfive.org.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: >> Indeed. I have no intention of owning an E... > Ah well, not to everybody's taste! Oh, don't get me wrong - I love to see 'em...! I can just think of ways I'd prefer to wrap an XK lump up. Like a Mk 7/8/9... > Fast forward- licence restored, driving again. E-Type running beautifully. > Now unable to do even routine maintenance, entrusted the car to "Jaguar [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > before - but a compression test indicated 50/60 on five of them, but zero > on no 3. 50/60? What units? Ian On 27 Dec, 19:06, "Geoff Mackenzie" <g...@chapterfive.org.uk> wrote: > Fast forward- licence restored, driving again. E-Type running beautifully. > Now unable to do even routine maintenance, entrusted the car to "Jaguar [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > before - but a compression test indicated 50/60 on five of them, but zero > on no 3. 50/60? What units? Ian I assume psi, but I wasn't actually there when the test was done. However, you prompted me to get the report out and I see my memory is as useless as ever - the figures were 120 to 150, not 50 to 60. Geoff > I assume psi, but I wasn't actually there when the test was done. However, > you prompted me to get the report out and I see my memory is as useless as > ever - the figures were 120 to 150, not 50 to 60. Phew. I hate to think what you'd have been putting in the tank to need a 4:1 compression ratio! Ian >> Fast forward- licence restored, driving again. E-Type running beautifully. >> Now unable to do even routine maintenance, entrusted the car to "Jaguar [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ian Ian For a car of that age it would still be in PSI - when were Kpa introduced?? :) r > Had to strip down engine completely before taking to engineering shop > for new liners. Horror - all main bearings down to copper, including [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > was left out or fitted upside down by the firm who did the job > originally. I'm about to overhaul a 3.9 Rover V-8 engine to go in the SD1 next year - and the two reasonably local firms I used to use for machining work have both folded. Another (that didn't have a good reputation so I never used it) is still in business but sends everything away. I enquired of them about having the crank and bores checked to see if they needed machining and they couldn't even do that locally. So appear to be nothing more than fitters these days. And there's no way I'd entrust this sort of work to a place where I can't talk to the actual engineer who'll do the work - even if it means travelling a long way. I'm hoping to take Dave Baker's advice on who to use when I finally get round to it. At the moment I'm building a Megasquirt for it. Imported the kit from the US. Not a job for the faint hearted. They don't even supply a circuit diagram. ;-) PS. Glad to hear you're on the mend.  Signature*Sleep with a photographer and watch things develop Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: > I'm about to overhaul a 3.9 Rover V-8 engine to go in the SD1 next year > - and the two reasonably local firms I used to use for machining work [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'm hoping to take Dave Baker's advice on who to use when I finally get > round to it. I know of a good place in Chesham, if it's any help. > "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding > much like they were saying: > > I'm about to overhaul a 3.9 Rover V-8 engine to go in the SD1 next > > year - and the two reasonably local firms I used to use for machining [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I'm hoping to take Dave Baker's advice on who to use when I finally > > get round to it. > I know of a good place in Chesham, if it's any help. Might well be - not really that far from me. Signature*The e-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: >> I know of a good place in Chesham, if it's any help. > Might well be - not really that far from me. Sod's law, I can't find the phone number at the mo - but I'll get it in the next day or two for you. Proper old-fashioned engineering/machine shop, run by a bloke who likes old bikes. >> Had to strip down engine completely before taking to engineering shop >> for new liners. Horror - all main bearings down to copper, including [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > place where I can't talk to the actual engineer who'll do the work - even > if it means travelling a long way. Dave, stick it on a pallet and send it my way, guaranteed a good rebuild. Badger. > > I'm about to overhaul a 3.9 Rover V-8 engine to go in the SD1 next > > year - and the two reasonably local firms I used to use for machining [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > actual engineer who'll do the work - even if it means travelling a > > long way. > Dave, stick it on a pallet and send it my way, guaranteed a good rebuild. > Badger. Thanks - but I actually want to do it myself. I love engine building - but haven't had to do one for many a year. Last full overhaul I did was a B Series in an Austin 1800. And it was a cracking example afterwards - better than new. Really it's just the crank grinding and re-bore I'll need - plus possibly testing to make sure the liners ain't leaking. Might get a new crank too rather than re-grind - if the present one needs it. It looks ok - but I don't have the measuring equipment to make sure. Signature*Young at heart -- slightly older in other places Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > Thanks - but I actually want to do it myself. I love engine building - but > haven't had to do one for many a year. Last full overhaul I did was a B > Series in an Austin 1800. And it was a cracking example afterwards - > better than new. Better than new, eh? Comeon Dave, that's not really difficult enough to be a challenge, lol. > Really it's just the crank grinding and re-bore I'll need - plus possibly > testing to make sure the liners ain't leaking. Might get a new crank too > rather than re-grind - if the present one needs it. It looks ok - but I > don't have the measuring equipment to make sure. If you can feel anything by running the edge of one of your nails across the journals, then it'll maybe just need a polish, but anything that catches your nail will invariably result in a regrind, as polishing it out will increase the bearing's running clearance too much. I always check with new shells and plastigauge before commiting to a polish. FWIW, 3.5 crank is the same as the 3.9, unless it's a later serpentine engine, in which case the woodruf key is considerably longer due to the different oil pump arrangement. Bores - all 3.9's tend to wear the bores at the upper limit of piston travel, most will hone out just fine unless the wear is extreme, then it's rebore time. Block - no meaningful results from pressure testing I'm afraid, unless you can recreate the temperatures and pressures that exist during running. These things can suffer cracked blocks behind the liners, yet nothing will show unless combustion pressures and temps are present. (especially combustion pressures on the top face of the block, due to the head gaskets not sealing against the thin liner). It's rare for this to happen with a 3.9 however, the normal failure is a slipped liner, evident by a step between the block face and the upper edge of the liner. Also, check very carefully for hairline cracks running fore and aft from the main bearing bolt holes. Fit composite gaskets (if original ones were tin, skim heads by 35 thou first), ARP stud kits to main bearings (75lbft) and cylinder heads (70lbft) add a steel timing gear set, a RS Viper Hurricane cam and you'll have a smooth, free-revving but torquey and bomb-proof engine! (Don't use the torque figures supplied by ARP - their figures are quoted for the studs being installed in steel blocks, not ally!). For maximum gain, smooth the ports immediately behind the valve heads, especially the nasty lump in the floor of the exhaust port, and just tidy the castings up a bit - that alone is worth a good 8bhp on most engines. Badger. > > Thanks - but I actually want to do it myself. I love engine building - > > but haven't had to do one for many a year. Last full overhaul I did > > was a B Series in an Austin 1800. And it was a cracking example > > afterwards - better than new. > Better than new, eh? Comeon Dave, that's not really difficult enough to > be a challenge, lol. Indeed not. ;-) > > Really it's just the crank grinding and re-bore I'll need - plus > > possibly testing to make sure the liners ain't leaking. Might get a > > new crank too rather than re-grind - if the present one needs it. It > > looks ok - but I don't have the measuring equipment to make sure. > If you can feel anything by running the edge of one of your nails across > the journals, then it'll maybe just need a polish, but anything that [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > castings up a bit - that alone is worth a good 8bhp on most engines. > Badger. Thanks for that - saved for later reference. Signature*He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless, dead. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > Thanks - but I actually want to do it myself. I love engine building - but > haven't had to do one for many a year. Last full overhaul I did was a B > Series in an Austin 1800. And it was a cracking example afterwards - > better than new. I enjoy it too. The last one I did was for my Herald ... after 85,000 miles over five years and a ten year layup it's still giving 160-170 psi on each cylinder and starts and runs beautifully. Preen preen. It's a bit annoying, actually, because I have the original block for the car awaiting rebuild, and there's no real reason to do it as long as the old one lasts ... Ian >> Had to strip down engine completely before taking to engineering shop >> for new liners. Horror - all main bearings down to copper, including [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > PS. Glad to hear you're on the mend. Hi, Dave - FWIW the firm I used for the machining was Southern Rebore, just outside Crawley which I think is reasonably near you. Obviously I can't give a personal recommendation until I've got another 50,000 miles on the clock, but they seem to very well thought of. Certainly my aircraft engineer friend has used them for donkey's years. The premises are clean and tidy, and the bloke who actually did the work - Colin - was very approachable and happy to discuss what he had found and what he proposed to do. BTW, I looked up Megasquirt and still can't figure out what it is! Geoff > BTW, I looked up Megasquirt and still can't figure out what it is! It's basically an ECU which can be programmed as you wish. So will control both the fuelling and ignition on my SD1 - which already has a crude electronic injection system. It's actually little more expensive than a new distributor - but gives far more accurate ignition timing across the range. Most distributors are no where near spec after some use - and even new ones have a pretty large tolerance in practice as regards the advance curve. And add in the fact that modern petrol requires a different one for peak efficiency from the fuels of 20+ years ago. Signature*Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know.* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> BTW, I looked up Megasquirt and still can't figure out what it is! > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Dave Plowman Oh Lawdy - so can't fix with a half a/f spanner and a big hammer. That's me dead in the water. Geoff > I'm hoping to take Dave Baker's advice on who to use when I finally get > round to it. Years ago I used to use Paynes of Eynsham, near Oxford. They were good, they were cheap and - according to a friend who did a lot of expert engineering reports after breakdowns, he'd never found a fault in their work. I haven't been there for a while, but I heard just a few weeks ago from someone who had, and was very pleased. http://www.fjpayne.com/ For what it's worth. Just a happy customer. Ian We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "Geoff Mackenzie" <gmac@chapterfive.org.uk> saying something like: >Hope this tale of woe helps others to avoid my mishaps! There's now a shortage of routine common sense and experience in workshops - most mechanics are so used to the plug-in generation of vehicles they've totally forgotten, and some never knew, the art of a bit of lube on anything that moved. As far as the crank is concerned - I'd have been inclined to take it to a place that still had brown-coated old gits who had generations of experience of Jag cranks between them. > We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the > drugs began to take hold. I remember "Geoff Mackenzie" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > vehicles they've totally forgotten, and some never knew, the art of a > bit of lube on anything that moved. Agreed - but the world moves on. Component swapping is probably the only way to fix the current generation of cars and the need for hairy-arsed engineers has all but disappeared apart from those of us who choose to run older cars. > As far as the crank is concerned - I'd have been inclined to take it to > a place that still had brown-coated old gits who had generations of > experience of Jag cranks between them. When I had the car rebuilt in 1997-98 the work was done by a small outfit who work only on older Jaguars. I found them excellent; the body and interior were to a standard I found acceptable - and I'm a fussy bugger. So when I wanted engine work done I took it back to them, and left it to them to decide who should do the machining. Unfortunately, I now conclude that they are better at metalwork than at mechanicals. This time around I made a good few enquiries myself and the people who ended up with the job - Southern Rebore, near Crawley, not only had the requisite number of brown overalls but a machine shop which would put most NHS operating theatres to shame (an aside - do XK engines contract MRSA?). I also liked their approach - think three times, cut once. Given the problem - all big end bearings in perfect nick, all main bearings down to copper - they concluded that either the block was warped (rare, but does happen) or the crank was out of true. Fortunately it was the latter, so could be rectified. GMacK > Given the problem - all big end bearings in perfect nick, all main > bearings down to copper - they concluded that either the block was > warped (rare, but does happen) or the crank was out of true. > Fortunately it was the latter, so could be rectified. Only musing, but I'd not have expected all the mains to be the same if the crank was out of true. More likely the journals weren't machined to the correct size for the bearings? In my limited experience your 'fault' was pretty rare. I've often seen engines with reasonable mains but shot big ends - even ones which only had one main per two cylinders. Trying to remember a bit about crank grinding - my father used to sell trucks for an Albion dealer and they had a very comprehensive workshop dealing with small boat engines as well as cars trucks and agricultural stuff. There was something about different types of grinder - one used the existing centres to re-grind (Prince?) whereas their Churchills ground where the centres should be - and sometimes rendered a slightly 'bent' crank scrap. Or something like that. Signature*Toilet stolen from police station. Cops have nothing to go on. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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