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Car Forum / UK Car Forums / Driving (UK group) / September 2007New cars = Crap Batteries
My car is just over 2 yrs old and has worked fine since i bought it. However, how can a modern car (even in so called summer) have a flat battery after just 2 weeks of not starting and nothing being left on to drain it. Mrs car was fine - but mine - no chance - had to jump start it. Surely this is a thing of the 60's and 70's my parents had to deal with - not nowadays in this "modern" age of technology etc etc Puzzled ?? > My car is just over 2 yrs old and has worked fine since i bought it. > > However, how can a modern car (even in so called summer) have a flat > battery after just 2 weeks of not starting and nothing being left on > to drain it. "Nothing left on"? So you've disconnected the clock, the stereo memory, the various other ECU memories, the central locking receiver, the alarm...? > Mrs car was fine - but mine - no chance - had to jump start it. > Surely this is a thing of the 60's and 70's my parents had to deal > with - not nowadays in this "modern" age of technology etc etc It's the technology causing it. >> My car is just over 2 yrs old and has worked fine since i bought it. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > It's the technology causing it. More like 'it's f.cked'. I've left two of my cars in aiport parking for practically 3 weeks with all the above things still on, and they've started fine in December at 6am. They've both been modernish diesels with electronic control too. The last time I had a flat battery was when the alternator failed on my piece-of-sh.t Volvo 480 in about 1994. > My car is just over 2 yrs old and has worked fine since i bought it. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Puzzled ?? It isn't the battery, but the car: something is up with it. The VW dealer in Norwich quietly tried to replace batteries without anybody making a fuss or telling the press that huge numbers of mark four Golfs and the *wibble* B5 Passats had duff batteries.  SignatureThe DervMan www.dervman.com > > Mrs car was fine - but mine - no chance - had to jump start it. > > Surely this is a thing of the 60's and 70's my parents had to deal with - [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > making a fuss or telling the press that huge numbers of mark four Golfs and > the *wibble* B5 Passats had duff batteries. The batteries that have been bought in from the same place as a whole load of other manufacturers buy from then? Just like the other 'VAG' issues of failed Bosch coil packs and MAF sensors. Your bias against VAG is entirely a product of you quite possibly being fired by them for being a shite salesman. HTH. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # >> My car is just over 2 yrs old and has worked fine since i bought it. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > anybody making a fuss or telling the press that huge numbers of mark > four Golfs and the *wibble* B5 Passats had duff batteries. STOP THE PRESSES!!! new front page "Car has flat battery" SignatureThePunisher >>> My car is just over 2 yrs old and has worked fine since i bought it. >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > STOP THE PRESSES!!! new front page "Car has flat battery" Heh. Except it wasn't one, it was a bunch. SignatureThe DervMan www.dervman.com SignatureLang may yer lum reek! >>>> My car is just over 2 yrs old and has worked fine since i bought it. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >> STOP THE PRESSES!!! new front page "Car has flat battery" Arent car batteries oblong? ;) > My car is just over 2 yrs old and has worked fine since i bought it. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Puzzled ?? It's not the battery at fault. IMO it's primarily the sophisticated alarms that are fitted to modern cars. IME 2-3 weeks seems to be the most one can expect, even with a fully charged battery. I have 3 cars used at irregular intervals. I have found the only way to to ensure they can be started after standing for maybe a few weeks, is to keep them in a locked garage with the battery disconnected. I know it buggers up all the memory settings, but to my mind that is better than allowing the battery to go flat, which will do the same. Better for the battery, and with a good battery, the car can probably be started even after a couple up months. Mike. > It's not the battery at fault. IMO it's primarily the sophisticated > alarms that are fitted to modern cars. IME 2-3 weeks seems to be the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and with a good battery, the car can probably be started even after a > couple up months. BMW won't entertain a battery warranty claim if the vehicle is unused for more than two weeks. And the ECU logs the usage... Signature*Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> It's not the battery at fault. IMO it's primarily the sophisticated >> alarms that are fitted to modern cars. IME 2-3 weeks seems to be the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > BMW won't entertain a battery warranty claim if the vehicle is unused for > more than two weeks. And the ECU logs the usage... Makes note. Do not buy a replacement battery from BMW. :-) I imagine it would be difficult for a retailer to establish the cause of a battery failure within the guarantee period purely by checking the battery on it's own. Mike. > >> It's not the battery at fault. IMO it's primarily the sophisticated > >> alarms that are fitted to modern cars. IME 2-3 weeks seems to be the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > BMW won't entertain a battery warranty claim if the vehicle is unused > > for more than two weeks. And the ECU logs the usage... > Makes note. Do not buy a replacement battery from BMW. :-) I'm really talking about a new car rather than just the battery. The quiescent current drain is such that about two weeks is the limit for not running the engine. > I imagine it would be difficult for a retailer to establish the cause of > a battery failure within the guarantee period purely by checking the > battery on it's own. Mike. Indeed. I spent a fair time getting the SD1 down to acceptable limits - it lives in the street so I'm happier with a decent alarm /immobiliser. The worst single offender was the central locking - the quiescent on that was 40 mA. I made a new controller using a low current 555 timer - an ICM7555 - and got that down to under 1mA. The alarm used self flashing LEDs which are also rather profligate with current so I changed those to standard ones and again used the same type timer to flash them every 10 seconds. The new Blaupunkt DAB radio is pretty good compared to the old one. Total is now under 25 mA. Of course it doesn't have permanently live ECUs etc like modern cars. Signature*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > In article <13fd2qj3pp4i...@corp.supernews.com>, > >> It's not the battery at fault. IMO it's primarily the sophisticated [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Makes note. > Do not buy a replacement battery from BMW. :-) Makes note: Don't buy a BMW. > > > BMW won't entertain a battery warranty claim if the vehicle is > > > unused for more than two weeks. And the ECU logs the usage... > > > > Makes note. > > Do not buy a replacement battery from BMW. :-) > Makes note: Don't buy a BMW. It will be no different in this respect from any other similarly equipped car. Signature*Could it be that "I do " is the longest sentence? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> > > BMW won't entertain a battery warranty claim if the vehicle is >> > > unused for more than two weeks. And the ECU logs the usage... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It will be no different in this respect from any other similarly equipped > car. Shhhs! Let him slate 'em. Keeps used values depressed, so, they're better value for the rest of us... SignatureThe DervMan www.dervman.com > My car is just over 2 yrs old and has worked fine since i bought it. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Puzzled ?? You're lucky you could jump start it. I've been in this situation with my Passat TDI, which cannot be jump started - even a booster pack really struggles. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # > You're lucky you could jump start it. I've been in this situation with > my Passat TDI, which cannot be jump started - even a booster pack really > struggles. Any vehicle can be jump started with butch enough leads and slave battery. Most jump leads are crap. Signature*Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > You're lucky you could jump start it. I've been in this situation with > > my Passat TDI, which cannot be jump started - even a booster pack really > > struggles. > > Any vehicle can be jump started with butch enough leads and slave battery. > Most jump leads are crap. I have decent jump leads - couldn't jump it from the 156. I'd also tried a freshly charged booster pack - that didn't do it. I tried *both* and just about got enough power in there to get it going. Second time it happened, I wasn't so lucky and even the AA booster pack struggled. SignatureSteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo' www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC # On Sep 24, 8:07 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" <d...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote: > In article <1i4wkfk.18u2ubm126s1ouN%st...@italiancar.co.uk>, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Any vehicle can be jump started with butch enough leads and slave battery. > Most jump leads are crap. That's true. When you need to feed several hundred amps weak clamps against dirt battery terminals just won't do it. > On Sep 24, 8:07 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" <d...@davenoise.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > That's true. When you need to feed several hundred amps weak clamps > against dirt battery terminals just won't do it. Some of the very sh.t ones will smoke halfway along the leads, even given that your right about the contacts being a bit resistive. On Sep 24, 8:07 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" <d...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote: > In article <1i4wkfk.18u2ubm126s1ouN%st...@italiancar.co.uk>, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Any vehicle can be jump started with butch enough leads and slave battery. > Most jump leads are crap. That's true. When you need to feed several hundred amps, weak clamps against dirty battery terminals just won't do it. > My car is just over 2 yrs old and has worked fine since i bought it. > > However, how can a modern car (even in so called summer) have a flat battery > after just 2 weeks of not starting and nothing being left on to drain it. Because even when stopped and the ignition key removed, modern cars draw several hundred milliamperes from the battery. I once tried to measure this on a Sierra but the inrush current from relays closing blew the 2A fuse in my ammeter. The only way to prevent this is either to disconnect the battery or use a "battery conditioner". BTW, once a car battery has been deep discharged in this manner, it is likely damaged beyond repair and will have to be replaced. It will not retain charge - car batteries are not designed to be deep discharged. (Years of experience with "summer only" cars and our ride-on lawnmower has taught me to look after lead accid batteries...) Signature"Religion poisons everything." [email me at huge {at} huge (dot) org <dot> uk] > BTW, once a car battery has been deep discharged in this manner, it is > likely damaged beyond repair and will have to be replaced. It will not > retain charge - car batteries are not designed to be deep discharged. That has to be one of the biggest design cockups going. It's not as if leaving a car unused for a few weeks is exactly unforeseeable. >> BTW, once a car battery has been deep discharged in this manner, it is >> likely damaged beyond repair and will have to be replaced. It will not >> retain charge - car batteries are not designed to be deep discharged. > > That has to be one of the biggest design cockups going. It's not as if > leaving a car unused for a few weeks is exactly unforeseeable. Nor is the need for manufacturers to sell more batteries. > > BTW, once a car battery has been deep discharged in this manner, it is > > likely damaged beyond repair and will have to be replaced. It will not > > retain charge - car batteries are not designed to be deep discharged. > > That has to be one of the biggest design cockups going. It's not as if > leaving a car unused for a few weeks is exactly unforeseeable. It's amusing to use long term car parks at airports. I tend to keep an emergency battery in the boot of the car and have had to use it on my wife's car. I've also used it several times to give other people a jump start. There's usually someone, somewhere, wandering around looking perplexed about why their car won't start. >> BTW, once a car battery has been deep discharged in this manner, it is >> likely damaged beyond repair and will have to be replaced. It will not >> retain charge - car batteries are not designed to be deep discharged. > > That has to be one of the biggest design cockups going. It's not as if > leaving a car unused for a few weeks is exactly unforeseeable. W-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-llll. I expect there are a number of conflicting design criteria including maximum current delivery, weight, speed of recharging, ability to withstand deep discharge, capacity and likely above all; price. You can buy batteries that will stand deep discharging, so-called "recreational" or "deep-cycle" batteries, which are designed for caravans, boats and the like, but IIRC, they are much heavier and more expensive than car batteries or equivalent capacities. Signature"Religion poisons everything." [email me at huge {at} huge (dot) org <dot> uk] > You can buy batteries that will stand deep discharging, so-called > "recreational" or "deep-cycle" batteries, which are designed for > caravans, boats and the like, but IIRC, they are much heavier and more > expensive than car batteries or equivalent capacities. They're also not good at supplying high peak loads - like starting a cold engine on a cold day, unfortunately. Signature*Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> BTW, once a car battery has been deep discharged in this manner, it is >> likely damaged beyond repair and will have to be replaced. It will not >> retain charge - car batteries are not designed to be deep discharged. > > That has to be one of the biggest design cockups going. It's not as if > leaving a car unused for a few weeks is exactly unforeseeable. Well, you are both right. Car batteries shouldn't be deep discharged, and certainly not left deep discharged, but it should be (and is IME) possible to leave a car fro several weeeks without doing so. I don't know if others do it, but very modern VAG cars have a 'transport mode' activated via diag software that lowers the power consumption if the car is to left for a long time- presumably for when the dealers pre-register hundreds and dump them in a field. > Because even when stopped and the ignition key removed, modern cars draw > several hundred milliamperes from the battery. I once tried to measure > this on a Sierra but the inrush current from relays closing blew the 2A > fuse in my ammeter. Probably the central locking trying to operate. Dunno about several hundred milliamps, though. Anything over 100 ish and the car won't start after two weeks. Signature*I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> Because even when stopped and the ignition key removed, modern cars draw >> several hundred milliamperes from the battery. I once tried to measure [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Dunno about several hundred milliamps, though. Anything over 100 ish and > the car won't start after two weeks. It wouldn't... So a wet-finger-in-the-air calculation led me to believe the car drew about 200 milliamps even when "switched off". Signature"Religion poisons everything." [email me at huge {at} huge (dot) org <dot> uk] > >> Because even when stopped and the ignition key removed, modern cars > >> draw several hundred milliamperes from the battery. I once tried to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dunno about several hundred milliamps, though. Anything over 100 ish > > and the car won't start after two weeks. > It wouldn't... > So a wet-finger-in-the-air calculation led me to believe the car drew > about 200 milliamps even when "switched off". Did you try and find out what was causing this? I doubt a car that age had permanently powered ECUs etc. Signature*Always drink upstream from the herd * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> >> Because even when stopped and the ignition key removed, modern >> >> cars draw several hundred milliamperes from the battery. I once >> >> tried to measure this on a Sierra but the inrush current from >> >> relays closing blew the 2A fuse in my ammeter. >> > Probably the central locking trying to operate. >> > >> > Dunno about several hundred milliamps, though. Anything over 100 >> > ish and the car won't start after two weeks. >> It wouldn't... > >> So a wet-finger-in-the-air calculation led me to believe the car drew >> about 200 milliamps even when "switched off". > Did you try and find out what was causing this? I doubt a car that age > had permanently powered ECUs etc. (Remote?) central locking, alarm. >> >> Because even when stopped and the ignition key removed, modern cars >> >> draw several hundred milliamperes from the battery. I once tried to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Did you try and find out what was causing this? I doubt a car that age had > permanently powered ECUs etc. It was a Cosworth RS500 and yes, it did have a permanently powered ECU. That and the alarm & immobiliser was quite sufficient to flatten the battery completely over the course of a 2 week holiday... Signature"Religion poisons everything." [email me at huge {at} huge (dot) org <dot> uk] > > Did you try and find out what was causing this? I doubt a car that age > > had permanently powered ECUs etc. > It was a Cosworth RS500 and yes, it did have a permanently powered ECU. > That and the alarm & immobiliser was quite sufficient to flatten the > battery completely over the course of a 2 week holiday... Probably the immobiliser. I've come across some that *make* relays to break the appropriate circuits. Signature*Microsoft broke Volkswagen's record: They only made 21.4 million bugs. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > My car is just over 2 yrs old and has worked fine since i bought it. > However, how can a modern car (even in so called summer) have a flat > battery after just 2 weeks of not starting and nothing being left on to > drain it. But there is. Lots of devices take a standby current. Signature*The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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