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Car Forum / UK Car Forums / Driving (UK group) / April 2004

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How slow?

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Peter - 12 Apr 2004 15:25 GMT
I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,

"When you approach these features reduce your speed."

I've never been taught to do this and I certainly don't normally do
this, but what does it mean?  What if it's a completely empty road
with a 20mph or 30mph limit, you'd be supposed to drive at less than
20mph or 30mph wouldn't you?  What if you've got the same situation,
but with somebody behind you?  Would you break this rule by driving at
the speed limit or break the rule about comming into confilict with
other road users by causing road rage?

Anyway, how slow would you go in these situations?  1mph under the
limit, 5mph under, or really slow?
PeterE - 12 Apr 2004 15:34 GMT
> I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Anyway, how slow would you go in these situations?  1mph under the
> limit, 5mph under, or really slow?

If you keep driving over road humps in 30 limits at 30 you'll rapidly
knacker your suspension.

In my experience few road humps can be comfortably negotiated above 20 mph
in a normal car.

I was taught by the IAM to maintain a fairly constant speed through
traffic-calmed areas, but to lift off the gas when approaching a hump, and
accelerate gently once over it.

--
http://www.speedlimit.org.uk
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." (William
Pitt, 1783)
Peter - 12 Apr 2004 18:49 GMT
> > I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> > rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> traffic-calmed areas, but to lift off the gas when approaching a hump, and
> accelerate gently once over it.

Ah yeah, humps make perfect sense, but what about chicanes?  The HWC
has a picture of a chicane by the rule and clearly indicates that you
should slow for chichanes.  Maybe it does just mean humps?

I get a lot of speed cusions around here which I have mentioned
before.  They can't be negotiated comfortably at any speed.  I find
that the best thing in my car is to drive between the humps in the
middle of the road, with some roads you won't even touch the bump, but
with most you just get slight bump.  I find that with speed cusions
faster is almost always better, for a few reasons.  I'll take the
chance with wearing out shocks etc, I just find that a slow speeds
(<25mph) my back starts to ache after about 20 of them.  I have some
on the way to work though which are so bad that my wheels spin as I go
over at just 30mph :-o

In Reading the IAM technique would probably cause a lot of road rage,
although it is a very good technique.  I'm far too impatient though
when I've got more than 20 of them ahead of me.
Doki - 12 Apr 2004 18:54 GMT
> I get a lot of speed cusions around here which I have mentioned
> before.  They can't be negotiated comfortably at any speed.

Get a wider car, and you should be able to get a wheel either side on *most*
speed cushions, though you occasionally encounter wide ones.
Doug - 12 Apr 2004 22:19 GMT
> > I get a lot of speed cusions around here which I have mentioned
> > before.  They can't be negotiated comfortably at any speed.
>
> Get a wider car, and you should be able to get a wheel either side on *most*
> speed cushions, though you occasionally encounter wide ones.

A wheel either side isn't always a good thing.  Encountered bumps in pairs
at the weekend where I could have got a wheel either side (in my wee
spitfire) but instead I took to the middle of the road and put a wheel on
each bump.   Preferred this as it meant my exhaust would still be in the
same place afterwards.
Silk - 12 Apr 2004 20:29 GMT
> In Reading the IAM technique would probably cause a lot of road rage,
> although it is a very good technique.  I'm far too impatient though
> when I've got more than 20 of them ahead of me.

I'm not sure there is an IAM technique. If there is, no one's mentioned
it to me. I'm an IAM observer and recommend, for the cushion types in my
area at least, that faster is best. Up to the speed limit that is.

This is just based on my personal experience. There are various types
and there is probably no "official" way of dealing with them. "Advanced"
driving is not just about following a set of rules, it's also about
planning and using your own judgement and common sense.
Ian Bailey - 14 Apr 2004 07:40 GMT
> > I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> > rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> If you keep driving over road humps in 30 limits at 30 you'll rapidly
> knacker your suspension.

Can never understand why speed bumps in a 30 limit aren't designed to
be taken at 30. Or for that matter, there's one in Rotherham in a 40
limit thats 15mph max....

Ian
Peter - 14 Apr 2004 12:26 GMT
> > > I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> > > rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Ian

Ah, it depends what car you've got.  An expensive BMW will probably be
completely different to a Fiat Punto.  They are stupid though, and
partly fo this reason.
Conor - 15 Apr 2004 11:37 GMT
> Can never understand why speed bumps in a 30 limit aren't designed to
> be taken at 30. Or for that matter, there's one in Rotherham in a 40
> limit thats 15mph max....

Underhanded speed limit reduction. They've successfully brought the
limit down to the 20MPH region without the need to put up 20MPH signage
which'd show their true intent.

Signature

Conor

If you're not on somebody's sh.t list, you're not doing anything
worthwhile.

Stevie D - 12 Apr 2004 17:46 GMT
> I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the speed limit or break the rule about comming into confilict with
> other road users by causing road rage?

The general idea behind traffic calming features is to slow traffic
down. Most speed humps are uncomfortable at 30mph, and will fairly
quickly damage your car. Chicanes can be dangerous if taken too fast.
And so on.

You should slow down to a speed that allows you to negotiate the
hazards comfortably and safely. Sometimes this might mean that you
don't need to slow below the speed limit, other times you might need
to slow down to 20mph or less, depending on the nature of the hazards.

Use your judgment! The chances are that the driver behind either will
be slowing down for the hazards anyway, or is an idiot who will just
keep driving around until he finds someone to hassle and give road
rage to.

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Doki - 12 Apr 2004 18:41 GMT
> I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Anyway, how slow would you go in these situations?  1mph under the
> limit, 5mph under, or really slow?

I slow down until the speedhump can be driven over comfortably. For some
this means carrying on at 30mph, others (those plastic ones you sometimes
get at supermarkets and stations particularly) mean slowing down to tickover
in first. Whoever's behind can wait or overtake.
MeatballTurbo - 12 Apr 2004 22:34 GMT
> (those plastic ones you sometimes
> get at supermarkets and stations particularly

I hate those things.
Most speed bumps are just annoyance. But those things are garaunteed to
knock my exhaust off it's mountings, everytime.

Kind of undignified driving a Saab, then getting out crawling
underneath, and come out with your hands covered in thrown up road crap.
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Carl Robson
(The poster formerly known as Skodapilot)
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Depresion - 12 Apr 2004 22:54 GMT
> > (those plastic ones you sometimes
> > get at supermarkets and stations particularly
> >
> I hate those things.
> Most speed bumps are just annoyance. But those things are garaunteed to
> knock my exhaust off it's mountings, everytime.

Yep exhaust has come off its rear mount on the jetta today at a DIY store.
MeatballTurbo - 13 Apr 2004 10:07 GMT
> > > (those plastic ones you sometimes
> > > get at supermarkets and stations particularly
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Yep exhaust has come off its rear mount on the jetta today at a DIY store.

Nasty isn't it. You drive a car that was designed before speed bumps and
have to suffer for it. Just because my car will do 135 doesn't mean I
will try to do it on a Sainsburys car park.
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Peter - 13 Apr 2004 12:46 GMT
> > I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> > rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> get at supermarkets and stations particularly) mean slowing down to tickover
> in first. Whoever's behind can wait or overtake.

I couldn't do that with some humps, believe me it would take me more
than twice as long to get to work!  However some are a first gear job,
like the massive one at the bottom of my road and in car parks, like
the ones you mentioned.
Doki - 13 Apr 2004 14:31 GMT
> I couldn't do that with some humps, believe me it would take me more
> than twice as long to get to work!  However some are a first gear job,
> like the massive one at the bottom of my road and in car parks, like
> the ones you mentioned.

You live about 5 minutes from work so you're probably not getting off of
residential / urban streets. As umpteen people have said before, walk or get
a bike.
Peter - 13 Apr 2004 20:29 GMT
> > I couldn't do that with some humps, believe me it would take me more
> > than twice as long to get to work!  However some are a first gear job,
> > like the massive one at the bottom of my road and in car parks, like
> > the ones you mentioned.
>
> You live about 5 minutes from work so you're probably not getting off of

10 mins!

> residential / urban streets. As umpteen people have said before, walk or get
> a bike.

Nope!  I'll be leaving my part time job within a few months anyway and
I'll only be working at my other place.  On my journey to the other
place my car does get up to full temp, it also gets a very thourough
work out.  4,700rpm from cold, but then into 4th, up a slight hill at
50mph.  It's weird, my engine gives more of a roar now with different
spark plug gaps :-o
Doki - 14 Apr 2004 01:31 GMT
>>> I couldn't do that with some humps, believe me it would take me more
>>> than twice as long to get to work!  However some are a first gear
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> 50mph.  It's weird, my engine gives more of a roar now with different
> spark plug gaps :-o

You ought to hear the sound a 1.0 Polo makes as you do 30 in first gear at
full throttle whilst left foot braking in a feeble attempt to clear all the
shite out of the engine. It's been beautifuly coked up again by my mum after
I cleared it out with a week of merciless hammering.
Peter - 14 Apr 2004 12:31 GMT
> >>> I couldn't do that with some humps, believe me it would take me more
> >>> than twice as long to get to work!  However some are a first gear
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> shite out of the engine. It's been beautifuly coked up again by my mum after
> I cleared it out with a week of merciless hammering.

lol!  My car only does a max of about 26mph in 1st.  Left foot braking
would probably work well, although my pedals are too small :-(.  I
tried getting both feet on the pedals while stationary and had no
chance :-(  My engine's going beatiful now, I gave it full throttle
today and it sounded normal (apart from a slight drone from my dodgy
exhaust).  I was stuck behind a cyclist (doing about 20mph) on a 50mph
road with double white lines, you're not supposed to overtake but it
was completely clear and the cars behind were impatient.  The chance I
took though was probably the only safe gap, the car behind would've
probably have been lucky.
Nick Finnigan - 12 Apr 2004 20:14 GMT
> I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
>
> "When you approach these features reduce your speed."

Anything which recommends 'reduce your speed' is badly
thought out (e.g. you've stopped to let oncoming traffic past).
It generally means the speed limit might be too fast.
Stevie D - 13 Apr 2004 19:41 GMT
> Anything which recommends 'reduce your speed' is badly
> thought out (e.g. you've stopped to let oncoming traffic past).
> It generally means the speed limit might be too fast.

The speed limit does not give a proscriptive speed at which it will be
safe to drive.

On many roads, you will need to slow down below the speed limit for
bends, blind crests, junctions, speed humps &c., even though for
*most* of the road the speed limit is appropriate and sensible. In
these situations, I think recommending "Reduce speed" is a perfectly
reasonably thing to do.

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PeterE - 13 Apr 2004 19:45 GMT
> On many roads, you will need to slow down below the speed limit for
> bends, blind crests, junctions, speed humps &c., even though for
> *most* of the road the speed limit is appropriate and sensible. In
> these situations, I think recommending "Reduce speed" is a perfectly
> reasonably thing to do.

And anyone with an ounce of common sense will realise if they are already
driving *very* slowly there is no need to reduce speed further.

--
http://www.speedlimit.org.uk
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." (William
Pitt, 1783)
W K - 14 Apr 2004 09:19 GMT
> > On many roads, you will need to slow down below the speed limit for
> > bends, blind crests, junctions, speed humps &c., even though for
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> And anyone with an ounce of common sense will realise if they are already
> driving *very* slowly there is no need to reduce speed further.

Wonderful.

Of course, I hope you don't mean that 65 on a rural A road, or 38 in a 30 is
"*very* slowly"
Nick Finnigan - 13 Apr 2004 20:46 GMT
> > Anything which recommends 'reduce your speed' is badly
> > thought out (e.g. you've stopped to let oncoming traffic past).
> > It generally means the speed limit might be too fast.
>
> The speed limit does not give a proscriptive speed at which it will be
> safe to drive.

That's right, most people generally drive faster, safely.

> On many roads, you will need to slow down below the speed limit for
> bends, blind crests, junctions, speed humps &c., even though for
> *most* of the road the speed limit is appropriate and sensible. In
> these situations, I think recommending "Reduce speed" is a perfectly
> reasonably thing to do.

So "reduce speed" means driving at the limit is inappropriate.
Stevie D - 13 Apr 2004 22:15 GMT
> So "reduce speed" means driving at the limit is inappropriate.

For the duration of one hazard, yes. But unless you are going to
assess individually every single bend, crest, junction, pot-hole and
access point, and then sign them all with variable signs that change
according to meteorological conditions, volume of traffic, number of
pedestrians, and so forth ... *of course* there will be times when the
limit will be inappropriate.

Or did you have a better idea?

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Nick Finnigan - 13 Apr 2004 23:47 GMT
> > So "reduce speed" means driving at the limit is inappropriate.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> pedestrians, and so forth ... *of course* there will be times when the
> limit will be inappropriate.

If driving at the speed limit is inappropriate, but driving 9mph
below the limit is safe, the speed limit itself is appropriate.

> Or did you have a better idea?

Speed limits with graduations of roughly 6.25 mph.
Peter - 14 Apr 2004 12:36 GMT
> > > So "reduce speed" means driving at the limit is inappropriate.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>  If driving at the speed limit is inappropriate, but driving 9mph
> below the limit is safe, the speed limit itself is appropriate.

No, speed limits are limits, not targets.  The driver should choose an
appropriate speed.  The limits are merely little more than 'advice'
and a way of fining drivers.  I don't think it's necessary for roads
to have the exact limits everywhere, if you approach a bend you don't
want to see a sign with a 27mph limit on it do you?

> > Or did you have a better idea?
>
>  Speed limits with graduations of roughly 6.25 mph.
Nick Finnigan - 14 Apr 2004 16:56 GMT
> >  If driving at the speed limit is inappropriate, but driving 9mph
> > below the limit is safe, the speed limit itself is appropriate.
>
> No, speed limits are limits, not targets.

At the moment it seems we have signs like 'reduce speed'
when they are not a target.

>The driver should choose an
> appropriate speed.  The limits are merely little more than 'advice'
> and a way of fining drivers.  I don't think it's necessary for roads
> to have the exact limits everywhere, if you approach a bend you don't
> want to see a sign with a 27mph limit on it do you?

No, I've stated that the speed limit is appropriate,
if there is an appropriate speed within 9mph of it.
Doki - 14 Apr 2004 17:57 GMT
>> "Nick Finnigan" <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:<c5hqki$1sihf$1@ID-118255.news.uni-berlin.de>...
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>  No, I've stated that the speed limit is appropriate,
> if there is an appropriate speed within 9mph of it.

So the council ought to be out putting up lower limits on every rural B-road
then? On a road near me, it's quite possible to drive safely at 100, but 1/2
a mile later you'd be mad to be doing more than 20.
Nick Finnigan - 14 Apr 2004 19:00 GMT
> >  No, I've stated that the speed limit is appropriate,
> > if there is an appropriate speed within 9mph of it.
>
> So the council ought to be out putting up lower limits on every rural B-road
> then? On a road near me, it's quite possible to drive safely at 100, but 1/2
> a mile later you'd be mad to be doing more than 20.

Is there a (specific) speed limit on that road?
scott - 14 Apr 2004 19:17 GMT
> > >  No, I've stated that the speed limit is appropriate,
> > > if there is an appropriate speed within 9mph of it.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>  Is there a (specific) speed limit on that road?

There are loads of roads like that near me, out of the towns, lots of fast
bits and lots of sharp corners.  They are all 60 limits (for cars).  On some
of the more major roads they have warning signs for sharp corners but on the
whites they don't normally.
Nick Finnigan - 14 Apr 2004 20:42 GMT
> >  Is there a (specific) speed limit on that road?
>
> There are loads of roads like that near me, out of the towns, lots of fast
> bits and lots of sharp corners.  They are all 60 limits (for cars).

Specific 60mph limits set on each roads, or just NSL?
scott - 14 Apr 2004 21:15 GMT
> > >  Is there a (specific) speed limit on that road?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>  Specific 60mph limits set on each roads, or just NSL?

I've never seen a "specific 60 limit" (ie sign with 60 on it) where the NSL
speed is 60.  The only place I've seen them are where the NSL is 70, ie DC.
I was talking about SCs, so the NSL is 60.
Andy Tucker - 15 Apr 2004 12:14 GMT
> > > >  Is there a (specific) speed limit on that road?
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> speed is 60.  The only place I've seen them are where the NSL is 70, ie DC.
> I was talking about SCs, so the NSL is 60.

ISTR that the A556 approaching the M56 on Bucklow Hill is like that -
a specific 60 limit where NSL is 60. That's only because there's 2
lanes in each direction, but no CR. Some numpties think that NSL is 70
along here.

Andy
Richard Bullock - 15 Apr 2004 18:05 GMT
> ISTR that the A556 approaching the M56 on Bucklow Hill is like that -
> a specific 60 limit where NSL is 60. That's only because there's 2
> lanes in each direction, but no CR. Some numpties think that NSL is 70
> along here.

Yes, a farly rare 60 sign on a single carriageway road - I think there are
some on the A361 in North Devon as well. I believe that several truckers
have gotten caught on the A556, exceeding the 40mph limit for LGVs (as it's
a 4-lane single carriageway - not dual carriageway)

Richard
Doki - 15 Apr 2004 18:43 GMT
>> ISTR that the A556 approaching the M56 on Bucklow Hill is like that -
>> a specific 60 limit where NSL is 60. That's only because there's 2
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> limit for LGVs (as it's a 4-lane single carriageway - not dual
> carriageway)

I was once on an unclassified road, probably somewhere in North Notts, and
saw a "Dual Carriageway Ahead" sign. I thought it had been put there by
mistake, but a couple of hundred yards further on, the road split in two,
with a grass, tree lined central reservation...
Richard Bullock - 15 Apr 2004 19:46 GMT
> I was once on an unclassified road, probably somewhere in North Notts, and
> saw a "Dual Carriageway Ahead" sign. I thought it had been put there by
> mistake, but a couple of hundred yards further on, the road split in two,
> with a grass, tree lined central reservation...

A lot of unclassified dual carriageways will probably have been A-roads in
the past, but the A-roads have now been bypassed/re-aligned or re-routed, as
has frequently happened through the years since the A/B classification
started in the 1920s

Richard
Stevie D - 15 Apr 2004 19:47 GMT
> I've never seen a "specific 60 limit" (ie sign with 60 on it) where the NSL
> speed is 60.  The only place I've seen them are where the NSL is 70, ie DC.
> I was talking about SCs, so the NSL is 60.

There are some on the A303, A1 and A66, where they are used to remind
drivers that they have come off umpteen hundred miles of 70mph duel
carriageway and have to slow down a little and watch out for oncoming
traffic.

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Doki - 14 Apr 2004 19:34 GMT
>>>  No, I've stated that the speed limit is appropriate,
>>> if there is an appropriate speed within 9mph of it.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>  Is there a (specific) speed limit on that road?

NSL, so 60. As there are no traffic police and no cameras on the road, there
isn't an enforced limit.
Nick Finnigan - 14 Apr 2004 20:53 GMT
> >>>  No, I've stated that the speed limit is appropriate,
> >>> if there is an appropriate speed within 9mph of it.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> NSL, so 60. As there are no traffic police and no cameras on the road, there
> isn't an enforced limit.

Well the NSL of 60mph might be inappropriate,
but it is irrelevent in practice given not only the low
enforcement but very high levels of compliance.
I see no inappropiate speed limits set for that road.
scott - 14 Apr 2004 12:51 GMT
> > > So "reduce speed" means driving at the limit is inappropriate.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>  If driving at the speed limit is inappropriate, but driving 9mph
> below the limit is safe, the speed limit itself is appropriate.

Oh dear oh dear.
Nick Finnigan - 14 Apr 2004 17:04 GMT
> >  If driving at the speed limit is inappropriate, but driving 9mph
> > below the limit is safe, the speed limit itself is appropriate.
>
> Oh dear oh dear.

What's the matter? Do you think speed limits should always
be less than the average speed of cars on a road?
scott - 14 Apr 2004 17:43 GMT
> > >  If driving at the speed limit is inappropriate, but driving 9mph
> > > below the limit is safe, the speed limit itself is appropriate.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  What's the matter? Do you think speed limits should always
>  be less than the average speed of cars on a road?

You've brought up a good point.  In my road where I live, the limit is 30,
and I estimate the average speed to be about 15-20 (it's very narrow and
twisty, kids playing, cats etc).  There is another road near me that is wide
and dead straight, fields on one side, big bank, fence and then peoples'
back gardens on the other side.  This is also a 30 limit, but I suspect the
average speed is over 40.  To make matters worse, further along it changes
to a 40 limit and then there are terraced houses *right* on the pavement
with no front gardens.

It seems to me as if someone has just randomly picked speed limits from the
hat, as IMO none of them are appropiate.
a - 12 Apr 2004 20:44 GMT
> I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Anyway, how slow would you go in these situations?  1mph under the
> limit, 5mph under, or really slow?

While we're at it, what is the best way or riding the smaller humps where
you get 2 or 3 across the road? I normally straddle them, and the wheels
just go over the slanted edges of the hump - you can go over these pretty
much without slowing down. However, I have just had new tyres put on and the
tracking was well out - I am wondering if constantly going over these
slanted edges has been enough to push the wheels out. Is it better to go
over the centre of the hump with one side of the car (which necessitates a
much slower speed)?

cheers

Da.
Stevie D - 13 Apr 2004 19:41 GMT
> While we're at it, what is the best way or riding the smaller humps where
> you get 2 or 3 across the road? I normally straddle them, and the wheels
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> over the centre of the hump with one side of the car (which necessitates a
> much slower speed)?

The technical name for these is speed cushions.

It will depend partly on your car. Some cars are not wide enough to
straddle them, so you will always get a bump. Some cars are too low to
straddle them - especially when heavily loaded - so you will have to
bounce one wheel over them.

I used to drive over a long run of these at 30-40mph on a regular
basis, and on my car there is just the faintest of touches doing that.
The tracking was still spot on afterwards.

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Conor - 12 Apr 2004 21:22 GMT
> I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Anyway, how slow would you go in these situations?  1mph under the
> limit, 5mph under, or really slow?

Do you have a full licence? If you do how the hell did you manage to
get it?

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Conor

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MeatballTurbo - 12 Apr 2004 22:36 GMT
> Do you have a full licence? If you do how the hell did you manage to
> get it?

Conor, I think it is a fair question.
In a 20, when it tells you to reduce speed, yet if you do, you may
conflict with other road users by causing an obstruction impeding their
progress?

So pretty much, you break one highway code rule/suggestion or another.
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Carl Robson
(The poster formerly known as Skodapilot)
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Scott M - 13 Apr 2004 11:28 GMT
> In a 20, when it tells you to reduce speed, yet if you do, you may
> conflict with other road users by causing an obstruction impeding their
> progress?

And what the 'ell are they doing wanting you to go slower than 20 - it's
the motoring equivalent of walking by placing the heel of one foot
against the toe of the other as you take a step!

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Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Peter - 13 Apr 2004 20:31 GMT
> > In a 20, when it tells you to reduce speed, yet if you do, you may
> > conflict with other road users by causing an obstruction impeding their
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the motoring equivalent of walking by placing the heel of one foot
> against the toe of the other as you take a step!

Don't ask me, these are the rules that we're supposed to follow.
Having said that less than 1% of drivers follow the HWC and not many
get fined.
scott - 14 Apr 2004 12:58 GMT
> > > In a 20, when it tells you to reduce speed, yet if you do, you may
> > > conflict with other road users by causing an obstruction impeding
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Having said that less than 1% of drivers follow the HWC and not many
> get fined.

Try using your common sense rather than following the HC to the letter.
MeatballTurbo - 14 Apr 2004 16:42 GMT
> > > > In a 20, when it tells you to reduce speed, yet if you do, you may
> > > > conflict with other road users by causing an obstruction impeding
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Try using your common sense rather than following the HC to the letter.

Oh god, with a quote like that, you will bring down the wrath of the AIM
through their local representitive Franchise.

Isn't the HC supposed to be the one hymn sheet that we all sing to, not
our own individual interpretationof the rules, but only those that we
choose to follow.
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Me - 15 Apr 2004 18:54 GMT
> > In a 20, when it tells you to reduce speed, yet if you do, you may
> > conflict with other road users by causing an obstruction impeding their
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the motoring equivalent of walking by placing the heel of one foot
> against the toe of the other as you take a step!

Step we gaily on we go, heel for heel and toe for toe....

Kev
Adrian Boliston - 13 Apr 2004 11:51 GMT
> In a 20, when it tells you to reduce speed, yet if you do, you may
> conflict with other road users by causing an obstruction impeding their
> progress?
>
> So pretty much, you break one highway code rule/suggestion or another.

You could say that you are "impeding" someone elses progress whenever you are
driving along and there is someone else behind you as if you were not there then
that person would be able to go faster.
MeatballTurbo - 13 Apr 2004 16:46 GMT
> You could say that you are "impeding" someone elses progress whenever you are
> driving along and there is someone else behind you as if you were not there then
> that person would be able to go faster.

if they had a vehicle that was capable of crossing a speed bump faster
than you but below the speed limit (landdrove/landcruiser/rangerover
etc), or weaving round the chicane faster (smart car/Cinq/seicento) and
you slowed down below 20 to floow that rule in the highway code, and
they stayed at 20 you would be impeding them, and they could rightly say
so.
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Conor - 13 Apr 2004 18:38 GMT
> > Do you have a full licence? If you do how the hell did you manage to
> > get it?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> conflict with other road users by causing an obstruction impeding their
> progress?

So you're supposed to drive through a tight chicane etc at the speed
limit no matter how dangerous that may be just in case you hold someone
up?

> So pretty much, you break one highway code rule/suggestion or another.

No you don't. If you have to slow down then so do they unless they
intend negociating it dangerously.

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Conor

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worthwhile.

AstraVanMan - 13 Apr 2004 21:34 GMT
> Conor, I think it is a fair question.
> In a 20, when it tells you to reduce speed, yet if you do, you may
> conflict with other road users by causing an obstruction impeding their
> progress?
>
> So pretty much, you break one highway code rule/suggestion or another.

It's a bit like on the A316 heading out of London - there's a long-ish
stretch between two roundabouts (about 1 1/2 miles) that's got a 40mph
limit.  It's the bit heading out of town between Whitton Road roundabout and
Hospital Bridge roundabout.  A fair while before Hospital Bridge roundabout
there's a "reduce speed now" sign.  If everyone did start reducing their
speed there, they'd be crawling in no time, far too early for the
roundabout.  Obviously in the rush hour it's different, but in the rush hour
you'll need to slow down well in advance of the reduce speed signs anyway,
so it all becomes a bit irrelevant then.

Peter
Mark W - 12 Apr 2004 21:42 GMT
> Anyway, how slow would you go in these situations?  1mph under the
> limit, 5mph under, or really slow?

If you have a Council van or a bus behind you, very very slow out of spite.
Conor - 13 Apr 2004 18:36 GMT
> > Anyway, how slow would you go in these situations?  1mph under the
> > limit, 5mph under, or really slow?
>
> If you have a Council van or a bus behind you, very very slow out of spite.

Can't be our council then. Usually its them holding the rest of the
world up. 15MPH below the limit no matter how low that limit is seems
to be the order of the day for E.Yorks council workmen.

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Conor

If you're not on somebody's sh.t list, you're not doing anything
worthwhile.

Peter - 13 Apr 2004 20:46 GMT
> I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Anyway, how slow would you go in these situations?  1mph under the
> limit, 5mph under, or really slow?

There was another question I wanted to ask too, but I had forgotten
it.  I've remembered now though, it's about overtaking parked cars.

If you come to a parked car (on your side of the road), there's on
comming traffic and it's going to be a tight squeeze, what would you
recommend?  I was taught to go, but I don't these days and I don't
think we should.  I may have the confidence to negotiate my way
through, but the other car may not.  My dad squeezes through the
smallest of gaps at high speeds, but it only takes a small mistake
from either two drivers or somebody opening the car door to have an
accident.  The 'Pass your adanced driving test' book says that we
should make progress where possible in these situations.  If my old
driving instructor gave me a lesson I know that he'd tell me that I
should drive through more often.  I prefer to drive safely though and
waste a couple of seconds.  If it's a situation where it's holding
traffic up etc, then I may, but not if I'm just waiting for a car or
two.
Doki - 14 Apr 2004 01:33 GMT
> There was another question I wanted to ask too, but I had forgotten
> it.  I've remembered now though, it's about overtaking parked cars.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> traffic up etc, then I may, but not if I'm just waiting for a car or
> two.

The obstruction's on your side of the road, so you're meant to give way if
there's no room. There's no point trying to squeeze through most of the
time, particularly not quickly as you've no idea what could be behind the
car. Even if you knock down someone's dog, you'll need your bumper fixing
and AFAIK it has to be reported to the police.
scott - 14 Apr 2004 13:00 GMT
> > There was another question I wanted to ask too, but I had forgotten
> > it.  I've remembered now though, it's about overtaking parked cars.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> could be behind the car. Even if you knock down someone's dog, you'll
> need your bumper fixing and AFAIK it has to be reported to the police.

My insurance documents say something about reporting an accident to the
police within 24 hours if there is "injury to people or certain animals".
Doesn't list the animals though, well maybe in the small print :-)
W K - 14 Apr 2004 13:30 GMT
> My insurance documents say something about reporting an accident to the
> police within 24 hours if there is "injury to people or certain animals".
> Doesn't list the animals though, well maybe in the small print :-)

Presumably the ones mentioned in other laws (HC?)

I believe domestic/farmed animals and dogs, but not wild animals or cats.
Nick Finnigan - 14 Apr 2004 17:07 GMT
> My insurance documents say something about reporting an accident to the
> police within 24 hours if there is "injury to people or certain animals".
> Doesn't list the animals though, well maybe in the small print :-)

Horse, cattle, a.s, mule, sheep, pig, goat or dog.
(a.s probably includes donkey).
Adrian Boliston - 14 Apr 2004 11:31 GMT
> If you come to a parked car (on your side of the road), there's on
> comming traffic and it's going to be a tight squeeze, what would you
> recommend?.....

I'd say keep going if possible, but keep the speed down, to a crawl if need be, as
a tight gap is usually safe at a very low speed, but a lot depends on the speed of
the oncoming vehicle, as sometimes they make no attempt to keep over or even slow
down even though it's clear that it's a tight squeeze, which I guess they are
entitled to do, but if we all drive totally selfishly then things could get pretty
miserable in busy traffic where a bit of give and take is required to keep things
moving.
Peter - 14 Apr 2004 18:38 GMT
> > If you come to a parked car (on your side of the road), there's on
> > comming traffic and it's going to be a tight squeeze, what would you
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a tight gap is usually safe at a very low speed, but a lot depends on the speed of
> the oncoming vehicle, as sometimes they make no attempt to keep over or even slow

Yeah, that's my biggest fear!  It's happened to me before, they don't
usually slow up and they shouldn't have to really, they have the right
of way.

> down even though it's clear that it's a tight squeeze, which I guess they are
> entitled to do, but if we all drive totally selfishly then things could get pretty
> miserable in busy traffic where a bit of give and take is required to keep things
> moving.
David Knowles - 28 Apr 2004 16:49 GMT
> > If you come to a parked car (on your side of the road), there's on
> > comming traffic and it's going to be a tight squeeze, what would you
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> miserable in busy traffic where a bit of give and take is required to keep things
> moving.

That's absolutely right Adrian.  In fact while I detest the current
anti-speed policy, in other respects I am actually enjoying my motoring
somewhat more these days.

The reason is that my attitude to other road users is now largely along the
lines of 'I will help you, and then you help me' which, when it works
properly, really does make driving much more pleasant and safe.

I would not wish to oversell this, but there are times when I have taken
particular care to be patient and courteous to another road user, and I can
almost sense that feeling spreading, which is really nice.

Having said that, I have no qualms about covering a bit of ground at
anything up to 100 mph when the conditions are right, but there you go, a
bit of variety etc. :-)

Best wishes all,
Dave  -  alias TripleS.

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do not represent the official position of MDK Consultancy Ltd.

David Knowles - 28 Apr 2004 16:29 GMT
> > I have a query about the highway code, which has confused me.  It's
> > rule 131 about traffic calming.  Part of it says,
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> traffic up etc, then I may, but not if I'm just waiting for a car or
> two.

When I was an impressionable youth (hell, that's going back a while) I used
to be very impressed by drivers who could whizz through narrow gaps at a
brisk pace, and I used to feel quite inferior because I didn't have the
confidence to do it.  I now believe it is very unwise to shoot through
narrow gaps, so that particular shortcoming of mine seems much less
important.

One thing I do find a bit irritating is where my side of the road is
partially blocked by a parked vehicle, and the driver coming the other way
goes straight through the middle of the remaining gap.  What he ought to do
(IMHO) is move over closer to the kerb on his side, and leave me room to go
through the middle at a sensible pace and with reasonable clearance all
round.  However, I would not expect an oncoming vehicle to move too far to
his left if it meant him coming too close to hazards on his near side, such
as pedestrians walking close to the pavement edge.

If there is any doubt about sufficient space being available for me to be
the meat in the sandwich and go through the middle, I prefer to slow down
early so that by the time I reach the parked vehicle the fellow coming the
other way has passed that point and is out of the way.  In that case I can
often carry on without needing to stop, it just means hanging back a bit.

Another 'trick' I find helpful in this situation is to move out early on the
approach to a parked vehicle on my side, and indeed to move out a bit
further than is strictly necessary.  This gives a better view past the
parked vehicle, and if anyone is coming the other way it also encourages
them to think about moving over a bit more to their left.  I try to ensure
that if they don't take the hint and move over, there is plenty of time for
me to stop and wait until they are clear.  In any event this 'moving out a
bit too far' should be done early, clearly and positively  -  shall we say
with a bit of assertiveness  -  but not in a pushy or aggressive style.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes all,
Dave  -  alias TripleS.

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Any opinions expressed are the author's personal ones only and
do not represent the official position of MDK Consultancy Ltd.

Peter - 29 Apr 2004 11:41 GMT
> > petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com (Peter) wrote in message
>  news:<c74310fd.0404120625.35fce59@posting.google.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> bit too far' should be done early, clearly and positively  -  shall we say
> with a bit of assertiveness  -  but not in a pushy or aggressive style.

That's what I always try to do, I quite often drive within a few
inches of the kerb on the opposite side of the road (only when there
are not pedestrians).  It gives me a great view and there usually
aren't many nearby hazards.

> I hope this helps.
>
> Best wishes all,
> Dave  -  alias TripleS.
 
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