Pierburg 1B

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Yvan - 17 Dec 2006 09:41 GMT

I have Pierburg 1B2 ('87 BMW 316 E30) that is similar to 1B3 fitted to some
VW cars. The difference is in cold start system (on 1B2 it is fully
automatic - you do not need to depress throttle pedal before starting the
engine).

Since this automatic cold start system is not working as it should
(TN-starter or waxstat is broken), I was thinking of replacing complete
carb with 1B3 from VW.

But before I do I have a question. Does 1B3 have vacuum advance port for
distributor? I connected vacuum gauge to this port on my carb, and it is
reading very low at idle, and then gradually raising to ~500 mmHg at higher
revs.

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Chris Bartram - 17 Dec 2006 17:08 GMT

> I have Pierburg 1B2 ('87 BMW 316 E30) that is similar to 1B3 fitted to some
> VW cars. The difference is in cold start system (on 1B2 it is fully
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> reading very low at idle, and then gradually raising to ~500 mmHg at higher
> revs.

From my Haynes carb book, the vacuum seems to come from a outlet on the
manifold, which then tees off to a reservoir and the pull-down unit for
the 1B3 in VW/Audi applications.

Given you might have trouble with jet sizes etc, would it not be better
to get a complete carb from a BMW? There might be other differences that
you won't find until it's all in bits.

I have to say, I'm not really up on BMW, but for VW/Audi applications,
once the Solex/Pierburg is knackered (and unfixable at a reasonable
cost), then the usual option is to fit a Weber conversion
(http://www.webcon.co.uk), but it's not cheap, so you might want to try
a strip/clean rebuild of the Pierburg, or a secondhand one, anyway.

IME by the time a pierburg hits the scrappy it's either been messed with
or is worn, so if you do get one, you might want to rebuild it anyway.
The problem is, the Haynes book doesn't list a 1B2, and the only carbs
it covers are Pierburg 34/34 2BE fitted to 316 (83-88) & 516 (83-85)
models. I wonder why yours has a different carb? The 2BE looks pretty
complex with electronic control.

I've taken the liberty of cross-posting this to alt.autos.bmw- there
might be someone there that can help more.

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John Burns - 17 Dec 2006 18:42 GMT

> > I have Pierburg 1B2 ('87 BMW 316 E30) that is similar to 1B3 fitted to some

I had one of those.

Ditch it, get a nice Weber. More power and similar or better mpg.

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SteveH - 17 Dec 2006 19:31 GMT

> > > I have Pierburg 1B2 ('87 BMW 316 E30) that is similar to 1B3 fitted to
> > > some
>
> I had one of those.
>
> Ditch it, get a nice Weber. More power and similar or better mpg.

Agreed.

I flogged my MkI Golf Cabrio because I'd had enough of playing with
several f.cked Pierburgs.

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Chris Bartram - 17 Dec 2006 19:54 GMT

>>>> I have Pierburg 1B2 ('87 BMW 316 E30) that is similar to 1B3 fitted to
>>>> some
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I flogged my MkI Golf Cabrio because I'd had enough of playing with
> several f.cked Pierburgs.

Really, they *can* be OK, *if* they're not knackered and you understand
what you are doing. The weber's a lot simpler and easier though, and the
cost of one is often less than paying someone else to fix the Pierburg.

It's probably pretty knackered though.

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z - 17 Dec 2006 21:21 GMT

>> > I have Pierburg 1B2 ('87 BMW 316 E30) that is similar to 1B3 fitted
>> > to some
>
> I had one of those.
>
> Ditch it, get a nice Weber. More power and similar or better mpg.

we 2002 (m10) owners have a lot of luck using c.d.iesel's weber jetting
prescription for the 32/36 :

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/content/view/62/32/

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Yvan - 18 Dec 2006 06:14 GMT

Nedavno z pise:

| we 2002 (m10) owners have a lot of luck using c.d.iesel's weber
| jetting prescription for the 32/36 :
|
| http://www.bmw2002faq.com/content/view/62/32/

That would be for 2002 (2 litre) M10. I have 1.6 litre M10.

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z - 18 Dec 2006 06:43 GMT

> Nedavno z pise:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> That would be for 2002 (2 litre) M10. I have 1.6 litre M10.

aye and you're not on a weber.. but in the interest of all those folk out
there in usenet o'l CD's jetting prescription might help some body down
the line. Keep in mind every thing we type here and now is archived. Any
bit of good information well indexed is a problem solved.

hope you do well with your ride bro! Sorry i'm not a carb guru with your
combination :(

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Yvan - 17 Dec 2006 21:32 GMT

Nedavno Chris Bartram pise:

| From my Haynes carb book, the vacuum seems to come from a outlet on
| the manifold, which then tees off to a reservoir and the pull-down
| unit for the 1B3 in VW/Audi applications.

Yes, I have Haynes too, but isn't vacuum in inlet manifold more-less
constant? At least in my BMW negative pressure at vacuum port for
distributor is very low at idle, and then gradually raising with
rotation of a throttle butterfly.

| Given you might have trouble with jet sizes etc, would it not be
| better to get a complete carb from a BMW? There might be other
| differences that you won't find until it's all in bits.

New 1B2 for BMW is listed ~$1000. As for the jets, I could just get
them of my original one.

| I have to say, I'm not really up on BMW, but for VW/Audi
| applications, once the Solex/Pierburg is knackered (and unfixable at
| a reasonable cost), then the usual option is to fit a Weber
| conversion (http://www.webcon.co.uk), but it's not cheap, so you
| might want to try a strip/clean rebuild of the Pierburg, or a
| secondhand one, anyway.

I think that TN-starter or waxstat is broken. On 1B3 you have stepped
cam that control throttle butterfly opening at cold start. On mine 1B2
there is some sort of tehrmo-expanding device (TN-starter) that mover a
piston allowing more (or less) air and fuel mixture to go at the opening
under throttle butterfly. It seems that it is not expanding/shrinking
as it should (after 20 years :-)

| IME by the time a pierburg hits the scrappy it's either been messed
| with or is worn, so if you do get one, you might want to rebuild it
| anyway. The problem is, the Haynes book doesn't list a 1B2, and the
| only carbs it covers are Pierburg 34/34 2BE fitted to 316 (83-88) &
| 516 (83-85) models. I wonder why yours has a different carb? The 2BE
| looks pretty complex with electronic control.

Because where I am at the time my father bought this car taxes for the
import cars were 87% up to 1.6 litre and 250% (yes 250% not a mistake)
for more than 1.6 litre engine. And since the rest of the world had 1.8
litre engine we (and Greece) had 1.6 litre.

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Chris Bartram - 17 Dec 2006 23:26 GMT

> Nedavno Chris Bartram pise:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> distributor is very low at idle, and then gradually raising with
> rotation of a throttle butterfly.

Ah. With you. I'd not though about it, but I suppose you need that for
vacuum advance? The above is what the diagram shows for VW-audi anyway.

> | Given you might have trouble with jet sizes etc, would it not be
> | better to get a complete carb from a BMW? There might be other
> | differences that you won't find until it's all in bits.
>
> New 1B2 for BMW is listed ~$1000. As for the jets, I could just get
> them of my original one.

New Pierburgs for VWs were about 600-800GBP a long time ago in the UK.
That's why people fit Webers!.

> | I have to say, I'm not really up on BMW, but for VW/Audi
> | applications, once the Solex/Pierburg is knackered (and unfixable at
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> under throttle butterfly. It seems that it is not expanding/shrinking
> as it should (after 20 years :-)

is that the device that is sometimes called a waxstat? That was what did
that on the 2e2 carb, and was a common failing.

> | IME by the time a pierburg hits the scrappy it's either been messed
> | with or is worn, so if you do get one, you might want to rebuild it
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> for more than 1.6 litre engine. And since the rest of the world had 1.8
> litre engine we (and Greece) had 1.6 litre.

I guess that means there aren't many BMWs about for spares :-)

Have you looked on Ebay? Where are you? Could you buy parts over the web?

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Yvan - 18 Dec 2006 06:12 GMT

Nedavno Chris Bartram pise:

| Ah. With you. I'd not though about it, but I suppose you need that
| for vacuum advance? The above is what the diagram shows for VW-audi
| anyway.

Yes, I noticed that diagram, but I thought I should ask anyway (it may
be different setup on different models). For instance interesting bit
was that "idle boost valve", I may use it for increasing idle speed when
I turn a/c on (a/c was not factory fitted on my car).

| New Pierburgs for VWs were about 600-800GBP a long time ago in the
| UK. That's why people fit Webers!.

Other than cold start, my 1B2 works great (car has only 35k miles on
the clock). Fitting a Weber is not that simple. I need to find (or
probably fabricate) adapter flange between carb and the inlet manifold,
and another adapter on top of a carb to fit filter box. There is also
my original question about vacuum advance port for a distributor. And
will it fit with all adapters without top of the filter box hitting the
bonnet... All that means a lot of $$$$ :-(

| > I think that TN-starter or waxstat is broken. On 1B3 you have
| > stepped cam that control throttle butterfly opening at cold start.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
| is that the device that is sometimes called a waxstat? That was what
| did that on the 2e2 carb, and was a common failing.

Yes, I think so. Only this one is a little different. Look here:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=1051&mospid=47249&btnr=13_0076&hg=
13&fg=05

It is number 23. Notice a bolt at the left (not the one below where ends
line connecting to number 23, but the bolt on the waxstat body). When I
remove that bolt I can insert screwdriver in it and adjust it a bit. I
did that, and now the car is drivable on LPG. This waxstat controls
(via piston it moves) amount of air going into inlet manifold, but also
amount of fuel (complex setup). In addition amount of fuel is controlled
with thermo-actuator (number 5 in the photo). So I guess both these
actuators need replacing.

1B3 seems not so complicated, and I can get one for 20EUR at a local
wrecks, and I think ~30EUR for a rebuild. But that was just an idea, so
I asked for vacuum advance port.

| I guess that means there aren't many BMWs about for spares :-)
|
| Have you looked on Ebay? Where are you? Could you buy parts over the
| web?

You are right. I can find another Pierburg (two barrel) from old 318 in
poor state, that needs re-jetting, than I also need anther flange,
filter box...

Yes I can buy parts over the web, but usually shipping costs for Serbia
are unreasonable high, or they will not ship at all.

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Chris Bartram - 18 Dec 2006 11:38 GMT

> Fitting a Weber is not that simple. I need to find (or
> probably fabricate) adapter flange between carb and the inlet manifold,
> and another adapter on top of a carb to fit filter box. There is also
> my original question about vacuum advance port for a distributor. And
> will it fit with all adapters without top of the filter box hitting the
> bonnet... All that means a lot of $$$$ :-(

For the ones with a 2BE there's a conversion kit which includes all the
parts and usially they use the standard air filter, and certainly Weber
kits for VW-Audi 'just fit'. 236GBP though......

Is there a Weber agent in Serbia?

> | is that the device that is sometimes called a waxstat? That was what
> | did that on the 2e2 carb, and was a common failing.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> with thermo-actuator (number 5 in the photo). So I guess both these
> actuators need replacing.

That is the waxstat, or at least it looks very like it. On a 2e2 it just
holds the throttle open a bit. That one does look a bit different.

> 1B3 seems not so complicated, and I can get one for 20EUR at a local
> wrecks, and I think ~30EUR for a rebuild. But that was just an idea, so
> I asked for vacuum advance port.

At that price it might be worth a try.....Sorry I can't help with the
original question. Can you have a look at a car in a scrapyard?

> | I guess that means there aren't many BMWs about for spares :-)
> |
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
:-(. You really should give ebay a go though. The kits for VW/Audi pop

up on there.

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Yvan - 18 Dec 2006 15:31 GMT

Nedavno Chris Bartram pise:

| For the ones with a 2BE there's a conversion kit which includes all
| the parts and usially they use the standard air filter, and certainly
| Weber kits for VW-Audi 'just fit'. 236GBP though......
|
| Is there a Weber agent in Serbia?

Not that I know. There are few garage's that I asked, and they can get
carb for me, but at the price that is far greater than the ones I can
find on a web.

| That is the waxstat, or at least it looks very like it. On a 2e2 it
| just holds the throttle open a bit. That one does look a bit
| different.

Yes, i noticed that in Haynes manual. This one is fitted in 1B2 and 2B4
(both unique to BMW I think).

| > 1B3 seems not so complicated, and I can get one for 20EUR at a local
| > wrecks, and I think ~30EUR for a rebuild. But that was just an
| > idea, so I asked for vacuum advance port.
| >
| At that price it might be worth a try.....Sorry I can't help with the
| original question. Can you have a look at a car in a scrapyard?

I did, and there is a port that looks that it is for the distributor
vacuum advance, but the orifice seems to go downstream of the throttle
plate (not sure about that, didn't feel like blowing into greasy
carb :-)

| > Yes I can buy parts over the web, but usually shipping costs for
| > Serbia are unreasonable high, or they will not ship at all.
| >
| :-(. You really should give ebay a go though. The kits for VW/Audi
| pop up on there.

I have eBay account, but as I wrote shipping costs are high (for two
Solex PHH-s (that I won for 85EUR) shipping was 40EUR :-(

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