Car Forum / Volvo Cars / September 2005
(Lack of) appeal of older Volvos (240)
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robert.st-louis@ec.gc.ca - 27 Aug 2005 11:58 GMT I recently purchased my first Volvo, a 92 240 wagon. I love it, it's clean inside and out, not much rust, higher than average mileage but well maintained and in good operating condition. I was looking for a roomy winter car and think I got that and a whole lot more. There are so many qualities that go with a 240 Volvo wagon, that all of you know (safety, solid engineering, ergonomic comfort, spacious cargo, durable drivetrain, etc.). I have read some people say that they thought the 240 was possibly the best car that Volvo ever built.
Oddly enough, I also own a 1982 Mercedes-Benz 240, a diesel sedan. It shares many of the qualities of the Volvo listed above (except cargo space obviously). Both fine cars, that in good condition and with proper care and maintenance, could potentially last another 10 years (maybe more with the Benz, as I don't drive it in the winter).
Now the reality is that I didn't pay much for my Volvo, and I see many others of that vintage selling for very low dollars locally. Mind you, many of them are probably rusted through so are not worth much, but some look like very nice specimen. So I am asking myself: if these vehicles are so well built, so durable, possess all those qualities, why aren't there more people seeking them out (thereby increasing used prices by supply and demand)?
I have come across a few people who had bought solid old Volvos as first car for their kids, only to have the kids say "I don't want to drive in that ugly thing!", and the parent is forced to sell. So looks are part of it, the 240 (especially) has outdated lines (some would call that "classic"). Plus they are getting older, and a lot of people won't touch a used car that's more than 3-4 years old. I have a feeling that ignorance is probably mostly to blame for people shunning older Volvos. I can't help thinking that maybe, like in other aspects of our society, there is a kind of "dumming down" of the population mainstream. People generally don't care what's under the hood of a car anymore, and the vast majority never look under there. NO interest in how the vehicle is designed, except that it have a good stereo and go like the wind when they step on the gas. Longevity, cost of ownership (most people go for expensive leases now!), seems secondary in most people's mind to color, looks, sex appeal, whatever.
Oh well, I suppose this ignorance is a blessing for those of us who favour older cars like Volvos, because it ensures plentiful supply of cheap cars and parts. However, something nags at me, to try to explain why someone would rather buy a 4 year old Dodge Neon or Chevy Cavalier or Kia (or choose your favorite piece of cr*p car), rather than a safer, better designed, and probably longer-lived older vehicle like a Volvo or Mercedes... It's a mystery to me...
Howard Nelson - 27 Aug 2005 15:24 GMT > I recently purchased my first Volvo, a 92 240 wagon. I love it, it's > clean inside and out, not much rust, higher than average mileage but [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > safer, better designed, and probably longer-lived older vehicle like a > Volvo or Mercedes... It's a mystery to me... Must be where you live. In northern California a decent 240 is very difficult to find and much sought after.
Howard.
Randy G. - 27 Aug 2005 17:34 GMT >> I have come across a few people who had bought solid old Volvos as >> first car for their kids, only to have the kids say "I don't want to >> drive in that ugly thing!", and the parent is forced to sell. How much can you get for a used kid? Maybe they could trade it for another Volvo!
>>So looks >> are part of it, the 240 (especially) has outdated lines (some would >> call that "classic"). Plus they are getting older, and a lot of people >> won't touch a used car that's more than 3-4 years old. And that's a big part of why they can be had for reasonable prices. I would rather have a 20 year old Volvo than a five year old Ford Taurus. Like cardboard interiors? Get a GM product!
>> I have a >> feeling that ignorance is probably mostly to blame for people shunning >> older Volvos. Do you ride a motorcycle? You would say that it isn't ignoarance- it's stupidity!
>> I can't help thinking that maybe, like in other aspects >> of our society, there is a kind of "dumming down" of the population >> mainstream. <sarcasm> Ya... Americans have always been so educated and wise when it comes to motor vehicles in general. That's why Harley outsells BMW and Ducati. </sarcasm>
>> People generally don't care what's under the hood of a car >> anymore, and the vast majority never look under there. NO interest in >> how the vehicle is designed, except that it have a good stereo and go >> like the wind when they step on the gas. Longevity, cost of ownership >> (most people go for expensive leases now!), seems secondary in most >> people's mind to color, looks, sex appeal, whatever. It's pretty much the same reasons why the divorce rate is over 50%- people are more interested in how it looks, how fast it goes from 0 to bedroom, and what it is worth than what's inside or how long it will last.
>> Oh well, I suppose this ignorance is a blessing for those of us who >> favour older cars like Volvos, because it ensures plentiful supply of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Must be where you live. In northern California a decent 240 is very >difficult to find and much sought after. I second that. I looked for quite some time for: -240 -wagon -light color -stick The car I got was not in the condition that the owner nor the shop said it was, but it is solid, rust-free from what I can tell, and has a pretty good drive train (good, strong motor with very low oil consumption).
__ __ Randy & \ \/ /alerie's \__/olvos '90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate "Shelby" & "Kate"
1948 Chrysler and parts car - for sale 1983 Chevy Blazer 4wd - for sale 1974 Ford Pickup 4wd - garbage hauler
Steve - 27 Aug 2005 18:08 GMT > >> I have come across a few people who had bought solid old Volvos as > >> first car for their kids, only to have the kids say "I don't want to [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > it comes to motor vehicles in general. That's why Harley outsells BMW > and Ducati. </sarcasm> I agree with you in toto up to here, however there is a tipping point about Harleys--they have just such a powerful aura such a rep, even though a Gold Wing or a BMW would make more sense for all the reasons I just bought a '94 940 turbo with 170 on it for $2000, there is just this special pull that is based upon so many cultural things that will most likely have me and my wife (advice from other Harley biker girls to here outside a biker bar we went to hang out at "make sure he buys you a seat with armrests BEFORE you ever get on it, hun") in the next years.
There is a Yami--the FJR1300 that does look good however. OTOH many Americans are fat, me and my wife included, and Harley and to a lesser extent, Honda have made their machine fit us as we are rather then as we were when we first wanted a bad a.s bike and went to college, bought a house, got married etc...
> >> People generally don't care what's under the hood of a car > >> anymore, and the vast majority never look under there. NO interest in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >> safer, better designed, and probably longer-lived older vehicle like a > >> Volvo or Mercedes... It's a mystery to me... LOL I have been laughed at time and time again when I suggest an old Volvo, BMW, or MB to folks--I also am partial to well maintained 4 cyl Hondas, and quite frankly I think american iron like the new Malibu or the all time up side down mobile, the Dodge stratus/Chrysler sebring (~$10k 2 yrs old wholesale) are also quite good alternatives, however the neon and kia whatever will always sell to people who believe new is good and old is bad.
> >Must be where you live. In northern California a decent 240 is very > >difficult to find and much sought after. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > 1983 Chevy Blazer 4wd - for sale > 1974 Ford Pickup 4wd - garbage hauler John Robertson - 26 Sep 2005 02:33 GMT same issues here "its unkool "but so is a wheel chair .We brought the Volvo because we love our son and frankly these Japanese cars are tissue paper thin ,so sure they go well but G-d forbid you should have an accident in such a can .
>>> I have come across a few people who had bought solid old Volvos as >>> first car for their kids, only to have the kids say "I don't want to [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > 1983 Chevy Blazer 4wd - for sale > 1974 Ford Pickup 4wd - garbage hauler James Sweet - 27 Aug 2005 19:42 GMT > Oh well, I suppose this ignorance is a blessing for those of us who > favour older cars like Volvos, because it ensures plentiful supply of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > safer, better designed, and probably longer-lived older vehicle like a > Volvo or Mercedes... It's a mystery to me... Just as you said, most people are ignorant and don't care at all what's under the skin, they want a car that's "cool" and looks like a flashy plastic toy. That said, there's plenty of people out there who got a Volvo thinking it was ugly and then it grew on them as they got to know it. I've converted a few people myself. 240s are not flashy but they're solid well designed cars that will last a long time and personally I love the clean functional look, built to work and built to last.
jg - 28 Aug 2005 04:40 GMT ...................>
> Oh well, I suppose this ignorance is a blessing for those of us who > favour older cars like Volvos, because it ensures plentiful supply of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > safer, better designed, and probably longer-lived older vehicle like a > Volvo or Mercedes... It's a mystery to me... I quite agree, but OTOH bits like pedal rubbers, hoses... can be expensive and there is not the ready supply of recon radiators, motors etc when they finally do pack up. It can get to the point where you throw away a great body (I've seen many in yards) because it will cost much more to fix the motor than a more common younger piece of crap. And being relatively rare, most don't know that much about them. While they are a great buy as an old car, I wouldn't pay a lot for one.
James Sweet - 28 Aug 2005 07:25 GMT > I quite agree, but OTOH bits like pedal rubbers, hoses... can be expensive > and there is not the ready supply of recon radiators, motors etc when they [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > most don't know that much about them. While they are a great buy as an old > car, I wouldn't pay a lot for one. Huh? Good used motors are easy to come by, they're a dime a dozen since they hardly ever fail. Radiators and other parts are easy to find too.
jg - 28 Aug 2005 10:50 GMT > > I quite agree, but OTOH bits like pedal rubbers, hoses... can be expensive > > and there is not the ready supply of recon radiators, motors etc when they [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Huh? Good used motors are easy to come by, they're a dime a dozen since they > hardly ever fail. Radiators and other parts are easy to find too. Volvo motors may last a long time, but in my experience the bodies last even longer in comparison to many other cars. But it doesn't seem to make sense that something which hardly fails would be a dime a dozen, specially when cheaper cars outnumber them many many times. Wouldn't ppl keep them until they do fail? It's got to be easier and cheaper to buy recon, after market and used parts for something which there are hundreds more of... and which fail more often?
James Sweet - 28 Aug 2005 19:54 GMT > Volvo motors may last a long time, but in my experience the bodies last even > longer in comparison to many other cars. But it doesn't seem to make sense [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and used parts for something which there are hundreds more of... and which > fail more often? Well they may not fall apart, but they do get wrecked. All three of the U-pull yards near me normally have from 6 to a couple dozen Volvos, the motors are almost always there, and they're only $100-$150 for a good running one or $50-$75 for a mostly complete core. There's just not much demand for them and they're usually in good condition still. I've gotten several fairly new radiators at those same yards too.
jg - 28 Aug 2005 22:49 GMT > > Volvo motors may last a long time, but in my experience the bodies last > even [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > demand for them and they're usually in good condition still. I've gotten > several fairly new radiators at those same yards too. While I admit I haven't specifically gone looking for a motor, there is a specialist volvo wrecker here (Perth Western Australia) and most others have hardly any. They would have maybe 40 bodies & many in good cond., but sure they have nowhere near that many motors or gearboxes which wouldn't leave much to choose from in a specific model. Volvos here are invariably advertised for wrecking with good bodies, but rarely good mechanicals. While it's likely you would find a good motor here, it would probably not be as cheap or easy to find as say a ford or toyota. And those last maybe 350,000 km well treated and a head gasket at half time. Might be a question of how many new ones are sold, volvos are not real popular here... or cheap.
244GL - 29 Aug 2005 07:44 GMT > While I admit I haven't specifically gone looking for a motor, there is a > specialist volvo wrecker here (Perth Western Australia) and most others have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > km well treated and a head gasket at half time. Might be a question of how > many new ones are sold, volvos are not real popular here... or cheap. Hello, jg. Who that be? The Volvo wrecker in Perth? :)
m Albany, WA 1981 244 GL
jg - 29 Aug 2005 08:30 GMT > > While I admit I haven't specifically gone looking for a motor, there is a > > specialist volvo wrecker here (Perth Western Australia) and most others have [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Hello, jg. > Who that be? The Volvo wrecker in Perth? :) hi "country cousin". "volvo spares & repairs" Clapham St, Beckenham. They also reckon they have shops in Perth, Joondalup & Oconnor but the phone always answers at Beckenham. That's the only one I've been to, I suspect the others are mechanics with some sort of connection.
244GL - 29 Aug 2005 12:39 GMT >> "jg" <jg@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:HjqQe.13589$FA3.10219@news-server.bigpond.net.au... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > always answers at Beckenham. That's the only one I've been to, I suspect the > others are mechanics with some sort of connection. Thank you, jg. :) I'll phone them later, or might just visit them next month.
m
jg - 29 Aug 2005 22:34 GMT > >> "jg" <jg@nospam.com> wrote in message > > news:HjqQe.13589$FA3.10219@news-server.bigpond.net.au... [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Thank you, jg. :) > I'll phone them later, or might just visit them next month. 089 451 1444 26 Clapham
John Robertson - 26 Sep 2005 02:36 GMT I sure cant afford to run a Volvo if I went to the big dealers and paid what they want for parts .I shop around and find the parts are as cheap or cheaper than the main sellers ford and gm here .
>> I quite agree, but OTOH bits like pedal rubbers, hoses... can be >> expensive [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > they > hardly ever fail. Radiators and other parts are easy to find too. Tim McNamara - 28 Aug 2005 22:04 GMT > ...................> > > Oh well, I suppose this ignorance is a blessing for those of us who [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > about them. While they are a great buy as an old car, I wouldn't pay > a lot for one. Rarity probably depends on where you live. Here in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area, you almost can't drive a block without seeing at least 1 Volvo 240. There are thousands of them on the roads around here.
jg - 28 Aug 2005 23:35 GMT > > ...................> > > > Oh well, I suppose this ignorance is a blessing for those of us who [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Paul area, you almost can't drive a block without seeing at least 1 > Volvo 240. There are thousands of them on the roads around here. New Volvos cost around double the price of a ford falcon here in Australia. Is it the same there?
Clay - 29 Aug 2005 00:06 GMT >>>...................> >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > New Volvos cost around double the price of a ford falcon here in Australia. > Is it the same there? omg, Ford Falcon. We used to run those straight sixes in our hydroplanes back in the '60's and '70's. If you could find a clean, running Ford Falcon around here (Southern California) it'd probably fetch a mint from a collector. (eccentric lot that they are...*g*)
jg - 29 Aug 2005 01:40 GMT ..............
> > New Volvos cost around double the price of a ford falcon here in Australia. > > Is it the same there? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > California) it'd probably fetch a mint from a collector. (eccentric lot > that they are...*g*) They might have morphed into something with a different name there (unless they don't make fords any more in the US), but the ford falcon is still one of the highest selling new cars in Australia.
Clay - 29 Aug 2005 23:55 GMT > .............. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > they don't make fords any more in the US), but the ford falcon is still one > of the highest selling new cars in Australia. US Ford Falcon: http://www.falconregistry.com/slideshow/nats/1.jpg
AUS Ford Falcon: http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/xr6t2.JPG
jg - 30 Aug 2005 02:40 GMT > > .............. > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > AUS Ford Falcon: > http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/xr6t2.JPG Yeah that's right, we had the US model (called XW, XY...) about the same time Mustangs came out. The Australian photo is fairly recent, what do they sell in US now which corresponds to that one?
Steve - 30 Aug 2005 04:04 GMT > > > .............. > > > > > >>>New Volvos cost around double the price of a ford falcon here in > > > > > > Australia. that looks kind of like a dodge sebring, say an accord/camry/s60/mazda 6 class car. they run anywhere from the high teens to the high 20's in cost in the US.
> > >>>Is it the same there? > > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > time Mustangs came out. The Australian photo is fairly recent, what do they > sell in US now which corresponds to that one? jg - 30 Aug 2005 06:49 GMT > > > > .............. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > class car. they run anywhere from the high teens to the high 20's in cost > in the US. It's the "family" ford in Australia, 6 cyl, bigger than a camry or accord. Isn't there an equivalent ford in the US? They start about $30000AUS... $22000US.
James Sweet - 01 Sep 2005 05:21 GMT > It's the "family" ford in Australia, 6 cyl, bigger than a camry or accord. > Isn't there an equivalent ford in the US? They start about $30000AUS... > $22000US. Taurus is probably the closest approximation, though not remotely similar looking.
athol - 01 Sep 2005 09:44 GMT >> It's the "family" ford in Australia, 6 cyl, bigger than a camry or accord. >> Isn't there an equivalent ford in the US? They start about $30000AUS... >> $22000US.
> Taurus is probably the closest approximation, though not remotely similar > looking. The Taurus (AKA torn arse) was briefly sold here alongside the Falcon in an attempt to see if buyers would buy an incredibly ugly FWD instead of the more moderately styled RWD Falcon. They didn't sell many...
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athol - 30 Aug 2005 07:12 GMT > that looks kind of like a dodge sebring, say an accord/camry/s60/mazda 6 > class car. they run anywhere from the high teens to the high 20's in cost > in the US. If you're talking about a Falcon, they are about the same size as the late model GTO, which is derived from the Holden Commodore. The Commodore and Falcon are the "large" cars in the AU market. The Toyota Avalon and Mitsu Magna (Diamante) are a little smaller but try to pretend to be direct competitors.
Camry, etc. are a class smaller.
 Signature Athol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace. I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.
Michael Cerkowski - 28 Aug 2005 11:50 GMT Speaking as a 240 owner, I'd say the low market value in many areas comes down to these issues:
* Fuel economy. It's hard to find a four cylinder car that gets less than 25 MPG, but you have to work to get a 240 automatic UP to that figure. Our Camry weighs the same, has the same size engine, automatic trans, and gets from 4 to 10 MPG more when driven exactly the same way as the 240. That's *average*, not highway MPG.
* Reliability. This isn't what it sounds like, as 240s are no more likely to break down than any other car of the same age. What they ARE likely to do, however, is require very regular preventative repairs (plastic radiator replacement, flame trap service, throttle body cleaning, etc) that Japanese cars need much less often. We've had the 240 for 6 years, and it's been worked on at least as much as much as my 20 year old Civic Si. Our '95 Camry, while not perfect, is a fuel-thrifty, reliable *dream* in comparison.
* Glitches. Closely related to reliabilty, but not things that disable, or threaten to disable, the car. The radios fail, the seat heaters fail, the fan motors fail, the hood latches fail, the tailights fill with water, etc.
* Age. They stopped making them in '93. I'd think twice about buying a '93 *anything* in 2005, and most 240s are much older than the '93's, not to mention less sophisticated.
So in short, the 240 is a tank. Like a tank it is rugged, long-lived, great in a crash, bad on fuel, requires regular (virtually monthly) maintainance, is fun to drive but not Sporty, and isn't the best car for the typical, non-shade-tree-mechanic driver. It's a niche car, with a devoted following.
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Michael Pardee - 28 Aug 2005 15:09 GMT > Speaking as a 240 owner, I'd say the low market value in many > areas comes down to these issues: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > and isn't the best car for the typical, non-shade-tree-mechanic > driver. It's a niche car, with a devoted following. I agree with all those points, Michael, and would add that Volvo's reputation for ruggedness has diminished in the last decade with the advent of the FWD/AWD cars. While the older models shouldn't be affected by that new perception, they are.
Toyotas and Hondas are the new holders of the "reliable" reputation, and as with the older Volvos they can be expected to last 200-300K miles. Honda is losing ground recently because of the automatic transmission problems with the 6 cylinder engines. Toyota has been the stodgy marque anyway, more in line with the Volvo tradition. When you factor in at least the perception of better fuel economy (although 6 cylinder Accords are in the same economy league as later 240s) Volvo is just not as attractive.
Mike
Tim McNamara - 28 Aug 2005 22:09 GMT > Speaking as a 240 owner, I'd say the low market value in many areas > comes down to these issues: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > automatic trans, and gets from 4 to 10 MPG more when driven exactly > the same way as the 240. That's *average*, not highway MPG. Your Camry weighs 3800 pounds? I had no idea they were that heavy.
My 1990 240 sedan gets 25 mpg average all the time. I've never had to "work" to improve mileage, that's just what it gets. Best highway mileage was 29.5 mpg earlier this summer, running a bit lean due to a malfunctioning AMM. My wife's 1993 240 wagon gets about 24 mpg on average.
Michael Pardee - 28 Aug 2005 22:28 GMT >> Speaking as a 240 owner, I'd say the low market value in many areas >> comes down to these issues: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Your Camry weighs 3800 pounds? I had no idea they were that heavy. What amazed me was when I compared the '84 Nissan 300ZX two-seater I had with our '85 765 turbo wagon - the weights were within 100 lbs of each other, and the wagon had a slightly tighter turning radius! Fuel economy was essentially identical; 20 mpg for each.
Mike
Bill Bradley - 28 Aug 2005 22:55 GMT >>Speaking as a 240 owner, I'd say the low market value in many areas >>comes down to these issues: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Your Camry weighs 3800 pounds? I had no idea they were that heavy. Learn the difference between GROSS weight and CURB weight. Volvo 240s are between 2860-3035lb for a sedan and 2980-3091 for a wagon.
> My 1990 240 sedan gets 25 mpg average all the time. I've never had to > "work" to improve mileage, that's just what it gets. Best highway > mileage was 29.5 mpg earlier this summer, running a bit lean due to a > malfunctioning AMM. My wife's 1993 240 wagon gets about 24 mpg on > average. Which is really horrible for a relatively underpowered car. Even worse when you have the AW71 without the lock up torque converter or absolute worst one of the 3 speed BW35 automatics. If you have a 240 Turbos you'll _never_ see 25mpg. I've owned seven 240s over the last 16 years including sedans, wagons, manuals, autos, turbos and NA and they all got lousy mileage. These days that's a serious knock to their attractiveness. I wouldn't give up my '84 242Ti, but I'm glad I'm not commuting with it.
Bill
athol - 29 Aug 2005 01:45 GMT > Which is really horrible for a relatively underpowered car. Even worse > when you have the AW71 without the lock up torque converter or absolute > worst one of the 3 speed BW35 automatics. I had a B27 with BW55 in my '80 264GLE and converted it to straight LPG. It was cheaper to run than on petrol, but still thirsty.
I pulled the B27 out when it started filling the sump with coolant... I fitted a 350 chev, turbo hydramatic 350 auto and a 2.47:1 Ford 9" diff. The economy is virtually the same as with the B27 but the perfomance is somewhat better. :-)
I've now got an '88 240GL that the engine will be going into. I'm yet to decide between a 5 or 6 speed manual or a 4L60 4-speed auto, but whichever I go with, the alloy heads and manifold that will be going onto the engine pretty much guarantee a significant improvement in efficiency.
I'll be curious to see if I can get better economy out of a 350 than most seem to get from 4-cyl Volvo motors. :-)
 Signature Athol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace. I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.
James Sweet - 29 Aug 2005 08:14 GMT > Which is really horrible for a relatively underpowered car. Even worse > when you have the AW71 without the lock up torque converter or absolute [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Bill I get right about 25 mpg in my 240 Turbo on the highway, it's a manual and I keep the tires inflated to max pressure and everything in good tune though.
jg - 31 Aug 2005 06:10 GMT > > Which is really horrible for a relatively underpowered car. Even worse > > when you have the AW71 without the lock up torque converter or absolute [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I get right about 25 mpg in my 240 Turbo on the highway, it's a manual and I > keep the tires inflated to max pressure and everything in good tune though. Depending where it is, a US gallon is about 1.2 IMP gallons. So 1 car which does 25mp(US)g would only do about 20mp(Imp)g... in Australia or UK for instance.
Michael Pardee - 31 Aug 2005 06:25 GMT > Depending where it is, a US gallon is about 1.2 IMP gallons. So 1 car > which > does 25mp(US)g would only do about 20mp(Imp)g... in Australia or UK for > instance. I think the conversion is backward on that. 1 US gallon is 3.7854 L while 1 Imperial gallon is 4.546 L.
Mike
jg - 31 Aug 2005 07:52 GMT > > Depending where it is, a US gallon is about 1.2 IMP gallons. So 1 car > > which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think the conversion is backward on that. 1 US gallon is 3.7854 L while 1 > Imperial gallon is 4.546 L. You mean... not everything is bigger in America?
Michael Pardee - 31 Aug 2005 18:33 GMT >> > Depending where it is, a US gallon is about 1.2 IMP gallons. So 1 car >> > which [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > You mean... not everything is bigger in America? Only in Texas ;-)
Mike
James Sweet - 01 Sep 2005 05:28 GMT > >> > Depending where it is, a US gallon is about 1.2 IMP gallons. So 1 car > >> > which [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Mike You took the words right out of my mouth, er hands
Timothy J. Lee - 29 Aug 2005 22:47 GMT >> Speaking as a 240 owner, I'd say the low market value in many areas >> comes down to these issues: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Your Camry weighs 3800 pounds? I had no idea they were that heavy. The previous poster said that the Camry weighs about the same as a 240, which weighs 2900-3200 pounds, depending on the model (according to the specifications listed in the owner's manual).
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AND Books - 27 Sep 2005 08:26 GMT i've owned/driven volvos since my 122 '64... the problem really is, what do you do with a volvo *after* it has faithfully served you... my '86 240 wagon has 400+K but my wife insisted, and i'm updating to a '90 240 DL wagon, and again now have 4 of them critters (81,83,86,86) that i *must* get off registration/insurance... the last horror sequence was i just gave them away with the common, "pay me whenever" principle as long as its 50+ miles away from me (i wanna fix my old cars for other people)... that's a challenge! once/twice i've stripped to to differential, and warehoused parts for "what-if" cases... i've still got 6-7 radiators lenses, mass air meters, fuel pumps, strombergs, SU's, cluttering my garage... ima getting too old for this, especially when the world is passing me by with the "new" 5 cylinder FWD models...
so, i got a great 1990 245 Wagon... it will be my only car. (automatic yuk!) but with 75K it should last my life... my comment here is to emphasize the great importance of *maintenance*... my 86 245 hasn't seen an oil change in 3yrs... it has 400K smiles and beyond total rust of its rocker panels, exhaust leaks through the back door, and my wife's endless rage about endangering our 2 irish setters it is perfect.. but it is now going away to someone who wants to mow our lawn, paint our fence, bangs some nails, or whatever... ima moving on from my relentless dream of holding on to my old herd of 240s...
undoubtedly, the 240 Series IS the best Volvo ever has made... but one cannot drive more than one at a time!
ending this diatribe(?) is my suggestion to anyone looking to get a pre-1992 240 Series Volvo (eBay has them from $400 to $4000)... just realize that an '87 Volvo in Utah with 250K for $800 might not be a better deal than a '90 Volvo next door with 80K for $4000... go for the LOWEST MILEAGE at a decent price... but ALWAYS stay with the 240 Model....
best to all
Janos (Volvo owner for 40+ years)
Andy - 27 Sep 2005 13:29 GMT I know there are highest mileage lists for Volvo's what about starting a longest period of CONTINUOUS ownership list.
You must be VERY old to have owned Ovlov's for 40 years, amazed you can use email (joke!)
Andy
> i've owned/driven volvos since my 122 '64... the problem really is, > what do you do with a volvo *after* it has faithfully served you... [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Janos (Volvo owner for 40+ years) Tim McNamara - 28 Aug 2005 22:02 GMT > I recently purchased my first Volvo, a 92 240 wagon. I love it, it's > clean inside and out, not much rust, higher than average mileage but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > drivetrain, etc.). I have read some people say that they thought the > 240 was possibly the best car that Volvo ever built. I am on board with this.
> Now the reality is that I didn't pay much for my Volvo, and I see many > others of that vintage selling for very low dollars locally. Mind you, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > why aren't there more people seeking them out (thereby increasing used > prices by supply and demand)? Most car buyers don't want a car that is a minimum of 12 years old. Americans think that older cars are necessarily unreliable and that newer cars are necessarily better. Most Americans think that 100,000 miles is a very good lifespan for a car, and that after that many miles the car is no longer safe to operate. And finally, in America cars are seen as an extension of the driver; there is not a lot of prestige in an old car (until the car is old enough to be a "classic" car).
Volvo enthusiasts, on the other hand, know that most 240s are good for 200,000 to 400,000 miles. They are safe, durable and dependable. If one followed the rather detailed maintenance schedule, someone who bought a Volvo at 40 could plan on leaving it for the children as an inheritance. Of course, this maintenance schedule led to the belief that Volvos are "expensive" cars to own and operate- never mind that maintenance is cheaper than a new car.
I'll admit quite selfishly that I am pleased by this. I can buy a 240 for cash at a very reasonable price, spend a reasonable amount of money in maintenance, and drive it for years. If I had a garage to work in, a few more tools and a lot more time I could do much of the work myself. 240s are great home mechanic cars.
e - 28 Aug 2005 15:32 GMT > Most car buyers don't want a car that is a minimum of 12 years old. > Americans think that older cars are necessarily unreliable and that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > seen as an extension of the driver; there is not a lot of prestige in an > old car (until the car is old enough to be a "classic" car). My Pumpkin Orange144 is 31 years old. Nearly as old as I am. With the exception of a slight paint fade on the fender is is in excellent condition. I'm curious what that car says about me. Is it a "classic" or just an "old car"? I used to never buy a car that was older than me. Then I wouldn't buy a car that was older than my driver's license. Then the age cut off changed to my wedding date. All rather random limitations. Now the only rule I follow is that I will only buy a car for myself that is emissions test exempt. That means that it must be pre-1975. Of course my wife drives the one year old Hyundai...
jg - 29 Aug 2005 22:31 GMT > > Most car buyers don't want a car that is a minimum of 12 years old. > > Americans think that older cars are necessarily unreliable and that [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > test exempt. That means that it must be pre-1975. Of course my wife drives > the one year old Hyundai... ...and they say women know nothing about cars!
Steve - 30 Aug 2005 01:44 GMT > > > Most car buyers don't want a car that is a minimum of 12 years old. > > > Americans think that older cars are necessarily unreliable and that [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > > ...and they say women know nothing about cars! I drive my new to me 940 turbo wagon while the better 2/3 drives a 97 850 no turbo. We are both quite happy!
jg - 30 Aug 2005 02:44 GMT > > >........... > > > rule I follow is that I will only buy a car for myself that is emissions [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > turbo. > We are both quite happy! A number of motor industry people have told me, and I'm inclined to agree, the best kind of car to have is a new one.
Eunoia Eigensinn - 31 Aug 2005 21:46 GMT > > > >........... > > > > rule I follow is that I will only buy a car for myself that is [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > A number of motor industry people have told me, and I'm inclined to agree, > the best kind of car to have is a new one. I don't know about that.
I'd take an old, high quality item over a new not-so-high-quality item any day.
As it happens I needed the assistance of my neighbour recently to pump my brake pedal for me while I bled the lines on my 1985 245.
He owns a newish Chrysler product and he just bought a new Hyundai SUV for his wife to replace her Mazda MPV whose engine has been sounding like a cement mixer full of Blue Box contents and has been haemorrhaging fluids onto their driveway.
In any case, he was somewhat struck with awe at the fact that (1) the engine in the 245 fired up and ran as smoothly as it did after having sat idle for over a month and (2) the solidity and general overall good condition of a vehicle that has attained "antique" status in the view of the Ministry of Transportation.
One of his sons will be getting his drivers' license in a few months and he wondered if I'd consider selling him the 245 so that he would have less to worry about when it came to the saftey of his son on wheels.
"No way!" I told him. I'd sell him my Camry wagon before I'd part with the 245. And I said that I'd give him my Suzuki Samurai for free.
jg - 31 Aug 2005 22:25 GMT ............
> > A number of motor industry people have told me, and I'm inclined to agree, > > the best kind of car to have is a new one. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > He owns a newish Chrysler ................ Not newish. New. After a couple of years it ain't new any more, how many cars give grief in the first 2-3 years? Of course the statement doesn't consider resale value or anything other than what's the best to have right now. Many ppl only keep them 3 years - not my practice (I do the exact opposite) but there's usually not much wrong with the car they currently have.
James Sweet - 01 Sep 2005 05:22 GMT > ................ > Not newish. New. After a couple of years it ain't new any more, how many [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > opposite) but there's usually not much wrong with the car they currently > have. How much preventative maintenance could you have done on an older car for half the money saved by buying it over a new one? I know plenty of people with new cars that have various problems, I found it ironic that my old roommate bought a brand new truck and it spent more time in the shop than I spent tinkering with my 15 year old car that had nearly 250K on it at the time.
Most people don't do it, in fact I don't know anyone offhand who has, but if you dump $5K into fixing up a $3K car the end result can be a very nice vehicle, much better than anything one could buy for even $12K new.
jg - 01 Sep 2005 07:42 GMT > > ................ > > Not newish. New. After a couple of years it ain't new any more, how many [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > you dump $5K into fixing up a $3K car the end result can be a very nice > vehicle, much better than anything one could buy for even $12K new. Hey no need to tell me, I have never owned a new car and just threw away a 17 year old for a 25 yr old volvo. All up a new car is probably a really bad buy, (although I still have no money to show for all that). But it still holds: choose between a new and an old car with no other consideration at all... you still want the old one? Of course as the new one ages, it's not new any more and consequently doesn't fit the bill.
James Sweet - 02 Sep 2005 05:58 GMT > holds: choose between a new and an old car with no other consideration at > all... you still want the old one? Of course as the new one ages, it's not > new any more and consequently doesn't fit the bill. I would in fact, new cars are so boring and sterile, and the first little ding from a piece of gravel really hurts. Much rather have something broken in and familiar, something I know I can fix if something does break, and something without a warranty so I don't have to worry about voiding it.
Michael Pardee - 02 Sep 2005 06:17 GMT >> holds: choose between a new and an old car with no other consideration at >> all... you still want the old one? Of course as the new one ages, it's [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in and familiar, something I know I can fix if something does break, and > something without a warranty so I don't have to worry about voiding it. Ah, a man after my own heart! We need to form a "warranties are a nuisance" club! The car isn't truly yours until it is paid for and the warranty is run out.
Mike
Michael Pardee - 28 Aug 2005 22:22 GMT > Most car buyers don't want a car that is a minimum of 12 years old. > Americans think that older cars are necessarily unreliable and that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > seen as an extension of the driver; there is not a lot of prestige in an > old car (until the car is old enough to be a "classic" car). As an American, I can say that is a generalization. I prefer cars with at least 80K miles on the odometer, and 100K is right in the sweet spot. Our 765T was an exception - it had only 60K. At 50K miles it is hard to tell how the car has been treated; at 100K it is hard to hide.
The last used car I bought was my daughter's '93 Honda Accord, at 163K miles. It now has 210K and is still going strong. But the critical issue is "who is going to do the maintenance?" Buying a high mileage car requires enough savvy to know what to look for and a willingness to do maintenance yourself. Most cars in that range are due for a timing belt change (in fact, it is a common trigger for the sale) and having a shop do that increases the cost sharply. Taking the car to a shop for brake jobs or drive axle changes is also a tough row to hoe.
I am active in several other car groups, and this one has certainly the highest expected level of DIY of any of them (although Honda comes close).
Mike
Tim McNamara - 30 Aug 2005 04:53 GMT > > Most car buyers don't want a car that is a minimum of 12 years old. > > Americans think that older cars are necessarily unreliable and that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 765T was an exception - it had only 60K. At 50K miles it is hard to tell how > the car has been treated; at 100K it is hard to hide. A good point. MIne came with a pretty complete set of maintenance records from the previous owners, which was nice, in addition to inspecting the car.
> The last used car I bought was my daughter's '93 Honda Accord, at 163K > miles. It now has 210K and is still going strong. But the critical issue is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cost sharply. Taking the car to a shop for brake jobs or drive axle changes > is also a tough row to hoe. You can do a lot of stuff yourself and save a lot of money. I have not the time, tools or in many cases the skills, but there's enough information available in books and on the Web to be able to do an awful lot of stuff with pretty simple tools and relatively simple skills.
> I am active in several other car groups, and this one has certainly the > highest expected level of DIY of any of them (although Honda comes close). I didn't know that about Honda owners. I've helped do a little DIY work on a couple of them, and they weren't too bad to work on.
Michael Pardee - 30 Aug 2005 15:43 GMT >> I am active in several other car groups, and this one has certainly the >> highest expected level of DIY of any of them (although Honda comes >> close). > > I didn't know that about Honda owners. I've helped do a little DIY work > on a couple of them, and they weren't too bad to work on. That may also be a factor in automobile longevity. Volvos, Hondas and Toyotas are noted for long life and all are (mostly) easy to work on. In contrast, the Nissan 300ZX I had developed scads of electrical intermittents around the 130K mile range and doing anything meaningful with the car was hopeless. For example, replacing the engine harness would have required shelling out $2000 US for the part and probably several days work, since it was integrated with the under-dash wiring. I also had to replace some hydraulic lifters and was sure the Haynes manual was wrong about getting the left valve cover off - it simply wouldn't clear the A/C bracket (which also couldn't be removed when the engine was in the car). Eventually I discovered the cover had to be turned exactly right and then knocked off with a mallet!
Mike
robert.st-louis@ec.gc.ca - 30 Aug 2005 22:59 GMT Well, I suppose there are a lot of good, solid older cars out there, suited to shade-tree mechanic owners, but shunned by the rest of the population. Volvo 240's, diesel Benz sedans, Toyota Cressidas, etc. etc. I suppose that if I hadn't had my hands full of other cars the last few years, I may have given VOlvo a try earlier. Glad I own a 240 now and am learning a lot from this site and others. One thing about these great old cars, whatever the marque, is that the internet is a wonderful source of information, advice and support, which makes ownership and maintenance of these fine old cars a more satisfying and rewarding experience. As long as a good supply or spare parts for them exists, no reason to think of buying something newer, as fas as I'm concerned. I don't need the speed and aerodynamic looks of modern cars (which largely look the same anyway, almost featureless). Give me something simple, solid, and that I can figure out and fix myself, anyday! Maybe one day my kids will see it that way too, who knows (they're not of age to drive yet, but I'd feel better to send them off in a Volvo or Benz sedan, than the cheap compact cars buzzing all over the roads... although in the end I know they'll probably refuse to be seen driving these "ugly old cars" sigh...). Cheers, all.
jg - 31 Aug 2005 01:21 GMT > Well, I suppose there are a lot of good, solid older cars out there, > suited to shade-tree mechanic owners, but shunned by the rest of the > population. Volvo 240's, diesel Benz sedans, Toyota Cressidas, etc. > etc. I suppose that if I hadn't had my hands full of other cars the > last few years, I may have given VOlvo a try earlier. Glad I own a 240 .............. They might have the "styling of a brick" as they say, but by geez the're great for merging in traffic. And a good car for taking their driving test in, specially with that incredible turning circle.
Cheery Littlebottom - 01 Sep 2005 01:26 GMT >> Well, I suppose there are a lot of good, solid older cars out there, >> suited to shade-tree mechanic owners, but shunned by the rest of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >great for merging in traffic. And a good car for taking their driving test >in, specially with that incredible turning circle. Some slack-jawed yokel rear-ended my 91 245 yesterday...he was looking at traffic, and not the car in front of him.. We got out, looked at the front end damage on his car (minor, but evident) and the lack of same on the back of mine...I thought about getting some time at the chiropractor from his insurance carrier, but decided to drive on unharmed instead.
I'm glad I wasn't driving any of my other cars - including the 01 V70. I don't think I would have fared as well...
CL
jg - 01 Sep 2005 03:13 GMT > >> Well, I suppose there are a lot of good, solid older cars out there, > >> suited to shade-tree mechanic owners, but shunned by the rest of the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I'm glad I wasn't driving any of my other cars - including the 01 V70. > I don't think I would have fared as well... Ppl assume volvos were safer because they are made of thicker sheet metal. I'm sure they are better designed than most cars but I believe the other is either a myth for those who can't tell the difference, or the impresion of weight given by the appearance... but as I say it works during that critical pre-collision stage.
Lucas Tam - 01 Sep 2005 05:07 GMT >> Some slack-jawed yokel rear-ended my 91 245 yesterday...he was >> looking at traffic, and not the car in front of him.. We got out, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the impresion of weight given by the appearance... but as I say it > works during that critical pre-collision stage. Ya I wonder how an old volvo would compare with a new car in collision testing?
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jg - 01 Sep 2005 05:19 GMT > >> Some slack-jawed yokel rear-ended my 91 245 yesterday...he was > >> looking at traffic, and not the car in front of him.. We got out, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Ya I wonder how an old volvo would compare with a new car in collision > testing? New cars here are now registered on a points system for safety features, so a car with say airbags standard probably needed them to rate because they lacked some other feature to gain enough points. Many newer cars collapse easily, which is good for reducing injuries but not so good for the car. Seems to me volvos (specially older ones) only collapse in major prangs so you might still drive away from minor ones.
James Sweet - 01 Sep 2005 05:49 GMT > Ya I wonder how an old volvo would compare with a new car in collision > testing? Happens all the time on the road, generally the new cars crumple, both do a decent job of protecting the occupants in many cases but the 240 is much more likely to drive away.
Alex Zepeda - 02 Sep 2005 05:36 GMT > Ya I wonder how an old volvo would compare with a new car in collision > testing? The IIHS ran an 83 260 diesel and a similar aged Dodge Caravan through their frontal test. The Dodge fared much better.
The newer Volvo probably would have sustained more damage in the scenario described above, but not likely any significant structural damage. Car companies are designing cars to be more pedestrian friendly in auto versus people accidents.
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Michael Cerkowski - 31 Aug 2005 05:27 GMT > >> I am active in several other car groups, and this one has certainly the > >> highest expected level of DIY of any of them (although Honda comes [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Mike My '86 Civic Si - and that '84-'87 series of Civics - is a nightmare to work on, but I haven't had to do much. After doing a couple of oil changes, and spilling oil because the filter is *behind* the engine, I let Valvoline or a dealer do it - while I watch. The 240 is much easier, access-wise, but I just prefer a car that doesn't need that easy access. ;)
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Michael Pardee - 31 Aug 2005 06:33 GMT >> >> I am active in several other car groups, and this one has certainly >> >> the [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > but > I just prefer a car that doesn't need that easy access. ;) My daughter's Accord is the same way, and I always shield the exhaust pipe (which runs directly under the oil filter) with aluminum foil. The oil filter on our '85 765T is worse - I have to move the power steering pump out of the way to change it. I understand there is a dog-leg version of the turbo oil drain tube that allows the filter to be removed - but there is still no way to get a wrench on the filter. I almost always dump most of the oil out of the filter trying to get it out.
Mike
James Sweet - 01 Sep 2005 05:27 GMT > My '86 Civic Si - and that '84-'87 series of Civics - is a nightmare > to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > but > I just prefer a car that doesn't need that easy access. ;) Try it on a 240 Turbo, I love that car but dang...
John Robertson - 01 Sep 2005 13:25 GMT We love our old Volvos because we know we own them and they are ahead in safety and road feel .Would you get rid of your wife for a younger model because she has a few wrinkles .Better the car you know eh?
>> Most car buyers don't want a car that is a minimum of 12 years old. >> Americans think that older cars are necessarily unreliable and that [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Mike jg - 01 Sep 2005 13:54 GMT > We love our old Volvos because we know we own them and they are ahead in > safety and road feel .Would you get rid of your wife for a younger model > because she has a few wrinkles .Better the car you know eh? Mine is the nicest car I've driven, but at 25 yrs it's a time bomb. If someone offered a new anything I couldn't afford to refuse.
robert.st-louis@ec.gc.ca - 01 Sep 2005 21:30 GMT Well let's face it, any car older than 10 years, especially with significant mileage, is going to suffer component breakdown from time to time, in spite of the best preventative maintenance schedule. Then again, a brand new car can leave one stranded with a blown ECU or other electronic component. I think we all have to weigh the peace of mind and relative reliability of a newer car versus its cost. An older car will cost a LOT less to acquire and insure, and probably less to operate (unless one buys a car that has been poorly maintained over its life), but will have a somewhat higher risk of breakdown and component failure. We all have to find a balance that sits well with us, taking into account our need for dependability, and our abilities to adequately maintain the car ourselves, and therefore prevent as many of the unforeseen mishaps as possible. The 12 year old Volvo 240 I have strikes that balance I think. We'll see how it works out this winter....
James Sweet - 02 Sep 2005 05:56 GMT > > We love our old Volvos because we know we own them and they are ahead in > > safety and road feel .Would you get rid of your wife for a younger model > > because she has a few wrinkles .Better the car you know eh? > > > Mine is the nicest car I've driven, but at 25 yrs it's a time bomb. If > someone offered a new anything I couldn't afford to refuse. If it's a time bomb then you're not maintaining it correctly.
jg - 02 Sep 2005 09:46 GMT > > > We love our old Volvos because we know we own them and they are ahead in > > > safety and road feel .Would you get rid of your wife for a younger model [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > If it's a time bomb then you're not maintaining it correctly. Probably, but regardless of maintenance one day something will wear out on it which can't be fixed for less than the price of a newer old one. For whatever maintenance failings, I keep cars longer than most I know and it's usually rust which beats me - which suggests to me overcapitalisation.
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